QANTAS crews operating through Hong Kong

[Bedder believeit]

Hey Guys (and Gals), could some of you do me a favour when you're to operate out of Hong Kong. After you receive your ATC clearance - either by PDC or by voice, could you please indicate your readiness (with a 5 minute warning call) to start on CDC - Delivery (129.9) instead of going straight over to Ground (122.55 or 129.9). I would estimate that QF crews change without CDC notification at least 20% of the time. This is nearly as bad as the Yanks, but we tollerate them.
The reasons being twofold:

(a) You don't know which frequency to change to, and - more importantly - (b) if you're going southbound on V4 or V5 (most common tracks for QF aircraft) the clearance needs to be proceduraly co-ordinated with enroute before Ground starts you, and if you go straight over to Ground, you cause all sorts of issues in the tower, which we can well do without.

I full well realise that the pages of PPRuNe are not the best place to bring up standardisation issues, but if I can change the nasty habits of just a few of you, I will feel much happier.

By the way, the Septics don't bother us too much, as by far the bulk of their flights are to the East - into full radar airspace, and the internal co-ord aspects are not so "user unfriendly".

Thanks

[GE90115BL2]

I suggest if this is a problem with QF then a quick letter to their Flight Ops Dept is the correct action.

Mid way through you mention they switch to Ground on 122.55 or 129.9 You should have said 122.55 or 121.6

[Capt Fathom]

Isn't it as simple as....

After the clearance is read back, just say: "Report ready this frequency"

[Bedder believeit]

Yep, my mistake, I meant 121.6.

Re letters to flight ops, agreed, but these things don't always seem to pass through. For starters I would have to convince our people to write to them. It is in the AIP but who carries those around! It's not a great operational issue, it's just annoying that's all. My original back ground is Aus ATC and I know full well how things operate there. QANTAS stands out in my/our experience as great "automatic frequency changes" when that's not how it's done in HK.

Capt Fathom, we crossed paths in cyber-space: If the clearance is delivered by PDC, then that chance to say as you suggest doesn't arise, unless the crew advise verbally receipt. On the PDC should be advice to report "ready" on delivery frquency.

[Avid Aviator]

Flick your above post in an e-mail to this guy:
[email protected]
He'll condense it into a 4 page memo and distribute it.
Seriously, he's on a HK improvement push at present and will sort it out.

[Bedder believeit]

Thanks Avid, I've sent him an email.

[max autobrakes]

And the dog whisperer will pass it onto Dolly ,where it will disappear for at least a year. :ok::}

[zlin77]

Isn't all this mentioned in the appropriate Jepps whatever for HKG, I fly in there regularly and just follow the screed, result, no dramas...

[Offchocks]

Bedder believeit

Correct me if I am wrong but, Jeppesen Departure Plate 10-1P8 says:

"Pilots are to comply with instructions issued by Hong Kong Delivery regarding when to contact the relevant Hong Kong Ground frequency".

I can't find anything where it mentions the 5mins to being ready to start.

[Nunc]

Zlin, Chox I agree. From my experience you are always transfered to required ground frequency, no crew I have flown with have auto transferred.

I think approaching QANTAS flight ops direct if there is a perceived problem is more appropriate than posting on this forum.

[blueloo]

I know! -- Get someone to fill in a Flight Crew Report....

it will take between 3-6 months to be processed, then the appropriate response of - its not required, or it will cost more than 5 cents to implement, or we have fired the people responsible for looking after that, therefore nothing will get done.

Soon you will realise the futility of filling in a flight crew report, or any company generated requests for information (ie safety climate surveys) and soon you will not bother sending any information at all to the company.

One day the company will then wonder why only around 30 people have responded to a survey......


oh wait a minute I thought i was dreaming, but yes it actually happened....

[indamiddle]

bb, if you email it to kenny please ask him to address the situation by issuing a video for all crew to watch. this will take no longer than 10 minutes to watch and you will no longer suffer from insomnia ,ever.
now i know that this thread is t/crew but our last offering from ken was hilarious, then confusing and finally we all switched off. come down to qcc1 to watch it (it is the one about injuries to c/crew as a result of 'hard' landings, he makes bernie fraser look animated!)

[slamer.]

If the clearance is received via DCL then there is no initial contact instructions on the PDC. Why dont you tack this on the end of the clr (as in Oz) to avoid any confusion or just do it like the Brit's at LHR

[Sagoor]

Had this occur to me the other day. We got our PDC via the ACARS. At the end of the message it said "Acknowledge PDC" which was a selectable option on the FMC screen. It didn't make any mention of calling Clearance or giving a frequencey to read it back on. The Jepps do mention calling clearance and the 5 min call requirement. I recommend an addition be put on the bottom of the ACARS PDC directing one to call the appropriate freq. Oops, should have read what Slammer wrote. It was my SNAFU calling the 122 vice 121 ground freq.

[Bedder believeit]

I Just checked the 5 min call requirement, and I believe it was changed on the 17 April '09 last, to now only being required between 12:30am local and 07:30am local...which I find a bit strange. Anyway! I will see what can possibly be done at our end to notate as indicated by Slamer to append the "report ready" on CDC frequency. My initial post at the top was really about folks getting their clearance (voice or PDC) and then going straight over to (either) ground freq without first getting approval from CDC (Clearance). Thanks!

[GaryGnu]

BB,

I am happy to comply with whatever you need but it must be clear what and when that should be.

In the case of 2 way PDC:

HK AIC 08/08 Para 4.1 (e) states "Pilots shall report when 'ready to start' on the frequency given in the CLD message....."

Should the call be at 5 mins to start or when ready to start? If the PDC says call "Ground" (which it may never do) is that acceptable too?

Cheers

[hongkongfooey]

There are a lot of great suggestions, tack it onto the PDC, etc etc.

Here is another one :

Why don't you guys just listen to BB and operate as per local procedures, How's that :ok:

[blueloo]

Why don't you guys just listen to BB and operate as per local procedures, How's that

Genius.

Here are some reasons:
1) People don't always operate regularly into HKG to know local procedures.
2) Not everyone reads Pprune to get their local procedures
3) Most rely on the advice in the Jepps for their procedures - they are in this case - either hard to understand, different to what is preferred, or just not being followed.

[Jackneville]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make some pilots read their (onboard) Company Documentation.......highlighted by a box (too!), page dated 23 April 2007. RMS, Comms.

[Jetsbest]

Given current RMS Rev18 dated 29Apr09, and as an infrequent traveller to HKG, I can't find your reference. Could you elaborate please?

[Offchocks]

Jackneville

Have a look at Bedder believeit's post #15, the 5min requirement has changed and someone forgot to inform some sections of ATC.
In this case the FAM is out of date.

[Offchocks]

Jetsbest

I believe Jackneville may be referring to FAM 6.9.5. towards the rear of the communications section.

[SMOC]

I don't know if PDCs differ slightly from company to company but CXs PDCs in HKG say contact 129.9 at the end. If the PDC has been acknowledged through the ACARS, all we say is "CX xxx ready" and wait for the transfer to ground.

I don't think BB is actually worried about the 5min call, just a call, I've had a visit to the tower and asked a few questions, the call to clearance allows him/her to check that your details (strip of paper on a plastic holder) have been passed to either ground South or North and they are ready for you.

[Jackneville]

Mmmm, quite the fool be I.

You can take a horse to the water but you can't make some Company Pilots
amend their manuals. Was looking at Rev.17, Dec. 08. Sorry guys.

[Jetsbest]

I'm still confused. FAM Ch6 is about Flight and Duty limits, Ch16 is about Fuel policy. FAM 21.7 discussed PDCs etc. Could you elaborate further too please? :ok:

er... disregard... I believe your'e referring to RMS Ch6.9.5. Got it!

[Offchocks]

Jetsbest

Sorry for the typo.............. yes I should have said RMS.
Anyway if you follow what it says on Jepp Hong Kong 10-1P8 I doubt you can go too far wrong.

[Nunc]

I have not been through Honkers since Feb but in the past you call for clearance, when it was issued they told you to report ready for push, you report ready to push and you are told to call ground on frequency xxxx. Cannot see how this issue arose but like I say it has been a while since had to worry about HKG ops.:ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

1) People don't always operate regularly into HKG to know local procedures.

Sorry Blueloo, I did'nt realise that not operating regularly through a busy international airport was an excuse to not know that airports procedures, my bad.

2) Not everyone reads Pprune to get their local procedures

Seems that not everyone reads their port pages/route manual/whatever you call them, either.

Most rely on the advice in the Jepps for their procedures - they are in this case - either hard to understand, different to what is preferred, or just not being followed.

Jeppesen 10-1-P8, Hong Kong, PRC : Pilots shall comply with instructions from HK delivery regarding when to contact the relevant ground frequency...........

Yep, pretty bloody confusing that, as well as every other operator on the field calling " Ready " on 129.9

Cheers

[framer]

Can someone who understands the system explain to me why every airport that is big enough to have dedicated clearance, ground and tower frequencies can't have the same proceedures for;
a) getting an airways clearance
b) start and push
c) taxi

I'm sure there must be a reason or ten but I don't know why.

There seems to be so many different ways of skinning the same cat, some want to know your alternate, others Pob, others the Atis designator, some want both, others don't want either, some places need clearance to push but not start, others start but not push, WTF? I make an effort and generally get it right for the locals but really, we're in the business of changing locations quickly, why can't we standardise it?

I look forward to the real reasons why. Cheers, Framer.

[hongkongfooey]

I'm hearin' ya Framer, you should try operating out of China :ugh:One place we go to has ATC clearance on Tower, pushback clearance on tower, start clearance on ground, initial taxi clearance on ground, rest of taxi clearance on tower, I am :mad: serious.
Why ? ......................................because they can :rolleyes:

TIA Bro ( This Is Asia ) :suspect:

[blueloo]

Hongkongfooey:

Sorry Blueloo, I did'nt realise that not operating regularly through a busy international airport was an excuse to not know that airports procedures, my bad.

Neither did I - must be "my bad" aswell (love the American slang - mate) However if you wish to do so thats your business.



Seems that not everyone reads their port pages/route manual/whatever you call them, either

Apparently not - but thanks for highlighting it for the rest of us.



Yep, pretty bloody confusing that, as well as every other operator on the field calling

Suppose you should take this up with the person who started the topic - as he seems to be the most aware of it - and appears to be trying to do the right thing and inform other people.


Cheers. Mate. :ugh: