Fatigue & journo asking for info

[SPA83]

“When the 188 passengers boarded the charter plane in Antalya (Turkey) to return to Iceland, on 27 Oct 2007, they did not know that their airplane would experience a serious safety incident – ending up beside the runway of Keflavik airport. Pilot fatigue and inadequate in-flight rest facilities were key factors contributing to this incident – which luckily left all on board unharmed – according to the recently published Incident Report. The report makes several safety recommendations addressed to the EU Institutions. Regrettably, these recommendations are likely to slip off the runway too, when attempting to land on the Brussels Institutions' slippery political ground.”

http://www.eurocockpit.be/media/Keflavik_Iceland_Serious_Incident_Report_2009_0129_F.pdf

[RoyHudd]

Euro aviation authorities act in self-interest and on behalf of national authorities, who themselves are about as morally bankrupt as British and Euro MP's.

Fatigue is prevalent amongst pilots and will remain so.

[Dream Buster]

BBC News | Health | Cover up over pilot fatigue (http://212.58.226.17:8080/1/hi/health/173370.stm)

1998....

DB :eek:

[eliptic]

"Dr Perry said pressure to cover up the fatigue problem came from both pilots and airlines: "If many of my colleagues were honest, we ground more people for that problem, but we don't call it that problem."

"Airlines are loathe to admit there is such a problem because that looks bad on them from the company image, and we have had many a company turn round and say that this pilot is malingering, or he has got other problems." Dr Perry says he has recorded fatigue problems as chest infections.


If this is the Truth? that professional Aviation Doctors are lying about this problem, how to get to solve it?

And if the pilot´s "play the game", how will they get better work conditions

How many other things are "covered up"?

[Jimmy Do Little]

I'm too tired to talk about this.

[Hotel Charlie]

As long as airfare stays low the traveling public do not care :ugh: ´cause the odds of anything happening to them are still very low!
Any politician threatening the possibility of traveling for next to nothing will lose his/her seat :ok:
Not until we see more fatal accidents will something be done about it, unless we ourselves stop this nonsense! The problem is there is always somebody willing to do anything or accept any t/c´s to be allowed to sit in the pointy end of an aluminium tube and that is dragging the rest of us down the drain! :sad:

[Boing7117]

It takes a terrorist attempt in order to increase (and frustrate) the level of security required these days in airports....

It will take something equally major in order to address the issue of flight crew fatigue.

Aviation is a major subscriber to the notion that the industry learns from its mistakes.

Pilot fatigue is an issue that will be no different.

[tsgas]

Well the U.S. Press has been reporting this week about the lack of rest for the Cogan crew involved in the tragic BUF crash . If the travelling public is confronted with the facts about crew fatigue and made to feel scared then the FAA and others will have to do something.

[green granite]

As long as airfare stays low the traveling public do not care

That's a very sweeping statement HC,

1) It's the airlines that set the fares, not the public. The passengers aren't going to complain about low fares are they.

2) The majority of the public assume that the airlines abide by the regulations and that the regulators know what they are doing................ Even if they are wrong.

One of the problems of course is how do you measure a persons fatigue level? To say that after for example 10hrs a pilot becomes dangerous due to fatigue, doesn't take into account the individual's metabolism or their state of well being on any particular day, after all if you pick up a bug you may well become fatigued a lot sooner than normal but you may not, in the early stages, feel unwell.

[Hotel Charlie]

1) It's the airlines that set the fares, not the public. The passengers aren't going to complain about low fares are they.

green granite, do you really believe the airlines decide the fare or is it maybe the market (pax) that decide? I think the latter beeing that we live in a free market world these days!

[eliptic]

do you really believe the airlines decide the fare or is it maybe the market (pax) that decide? I think the latter being that we live in a free market world these days!

That mean´s that if i buy the ticket from the more expensive Airlines i get bigger chance flying with a well rested Crew?

I wonder when all the easy and Ryan A/C start falling from the sky

[Avman]

I think one of the major contributors to fatigue in the USA are the long distances pilots commute, often immediately before starting their duty cycle. That too should be controlled!

[green granite]

do you really believe the airlines decide the fare

Yes I do, it's called competition, it works like this, 2 airlines fly to the same place and they want your business so they undercut each other to get it. In order to make a profit they have to get the max they can out of their employees. (sorry if that sounds patronizing, it's not meant to be)

The public, of course, want to pay as little as possible for the fare, as I'm sure you do when you buy a new car etc, but in the end if the airline says the ticket price is X then that is what the punter has to pay to get to where he wants to go. Whether or not this leads to a reduction in people flying is debatable.

If the regulators reduced the number of hours a pilot can fly/be on duty then the airlines would have to employ more of them to do the current number of flights, therefore ticket prices would have to go up.

[eliptic]

If the regulators reduced the number of hours a pilot can fly/be on duty then the airlines would have to employ more of them to do the current number of flights, therefore ticket prices would have to go up.

agree

I did not realize that this was so big issue until read it here, i also think that a majority of flyer's would say the same.
would i appreciate a low ticket price if i know the drawbacks? Hell no!

This needs more passenger awareness and better regulations, this is not a "you get what u pay for question"

I would not fly for free even in first class with a overworked crew period, and if this leads to not so many people can fly for the sake of flying and fun b cos it´s rock bottom cheap,,,so be it!!

[Hotel Charlie]

(sorry if that sounds patronizing, it's not meant to be)

Guess I can say the same to You :ok: You describe it perfectly: It´s the market that decides what the airlines can charge for the ticket, otherwise they fly with empty seats and eventually go out of business!

[Squawk7777]

Well the U.S. Press has been reporting this week about the lack of rest for the Cogan crew involved in the tragic BUF crash . If the travelling public is confronted with the facts about crew fatigue and made to feel scared then the FAA and others will have to do something.

Don't hold your breath. There have been accidents before, and the FAA has done nothing (Little Rock, Lexington etc.)! At the end they'd have to admit that they had been wrong. What do you expect from (mainly) bureaucrats that think all day about going home at 15.00? :hmm: Try to explain fatigue to them, I bet they are fully able to relay this feeling. But the Feds will say, you can always call in fatigued and this is their get-out-of-jail free card! When do you start realising that you're fatigued? Usually, when you start screwing up somehow.

The only thing the Feds will do is posing restrictions on commuting which will make QOL for many pilots much worse than it is these days.

Ooops, sorry, it's 15:00 and I am off home .... :*

[Dan Winterland]

It's interesting that when a pilot shows up to work and is found with alcohol in his/her blood, the industry, regulators, press and public go to town and pillory the individual. But fatigue is as dangerous, far more common and more insidious because although the effects are similar, the individual knows when they have had a drink but often doesn't know they are fatigued until they start making mistakes.

But the regulators and companies are quite happy - indeed encourage pilots to fly when fatigued. Personally, I think I would be more on the ball having had a beer than flying with chronic and acute fatigue. How easy is it to be on top of your game when you've been awake for 22 hours. It's usually OK if everything is going well as modern aircraft tend to protect you. But if anything goes wrong, you are very likely to become a statistic - as the Coglan pilots did.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Well said, Dan.

[Dream Buster]

2007...

"81% of pilots surveyed said that fatigue had affected them."

"32 pilots flown whilst unfit."

etc.

BBC NEWS | UK | Pilots raise fears over fatigue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm)

I stopped flying in 2005 thinking I was fatigued - I had actually been poisoned - but that's another subject...

DB :ugh:

[llondel]

Dan:

If there was a reliable and cheap scientific test for fatigue, in the same way as they can test blood alcohol level, you can bet there would be legislation to cover it.

[Doug the Head]

Dan:

If there was a reliable and cheap scientific test for fatigue, in the same way as they can test blood alcohol level, you can bet there would be legislation to cover it.Well, there is a reliable and effective way to anticipate fatigue, and that is to have some common sense when planning crews and establishing realistic regulations. But of course that would be too much to ask... :rolleyes: No, the writing (by flight crew) is on the wall, but the authorities, the airlines and the public prefer to wait till the inevitable happens.

The airlines have covered themselves legally with al kinds of vague memo's and 'fatigue awareness training' and for the authorities....well, they will probably react in the same way as in the present credit crunch: firmly asleep at the 'protecting the public' switch and blaming greedy managers for anything that goes wrong.

[SPA83]

Here is the black list of European Airlines “dismayed” by the EASA report about fatigue

Adria Airways - Aer Lingus - AeroSvit - Air France - Air Malta - Air One - Alitalia -Austrian - bmi - British Airways - Brussels Airlines – Cargolux - Croatia Airlines - Cyprus Airways - Czech Airlines – DHL – Finnair – Iberia – Icelandair - Jat Airways – KLM – LOT – Lufthansa – Luxair – Malev - Olympic Airlines - SAS Scandinavian Airlines – Spanair – SWISS - TAP Portugal – TAROM - TNT Airways - Turkish Airlines - Ukraine International Airlines - Virgin Atlantic Airways

You can add Ryanair for the others, I don’t know

Les dossiers noirs du transport aérien (http://henrimarnetcornus.20minutes-blogs.fr/)

[Dream Buster]

llondel,

There is a reliable and expensive (£450) way measuring abnormal amounts of chemicals in pilots - it has been done since 2006 when 27 pilots were tested by UCL - the report was published recently along with another one linking low level exposure of OP's to chronic ill health.

Dr Sarah Mackenzie Ross - UCL - Peer reviewed paper.

Scientific Reports - Aerotoxic Association - Support for Aerotoxic Syndrome Sufferers (http://www.aerotoxic.org/categories/20081027)

Poisoning = fatigue.

DB :uhoh:

[eliptic]

My god,,

Reading this report you guys(crew) are like walking gas stations:eek:

some 1000% over average on C7H16O

[Double Zero]

Avman & Dan,

As mentioned before I'm SLF but have done a fair bit of 'flying' as an organic -based autopilot to and from photography sorties etc.

I'm also a qualified yachtie & instructor, and I always say ' fatigue is the No.1 enemy ' - though it takes a lot longer to get into trouble in a boat compared to an aircraft, it also takes an equally long time or more to get out of it !

Regarding the comment about long trips before one even gets into an aircraft in the U.S, very true, but I'd reckon Heathrow and the traffic around it a pretty serious issue, don't know about anyone else but a near road-rage inducing constant traffic jam b***rs me far more than a longer road trip, and I wouldn't think either very good for flying.

I doubt a company pilot's barracks for the day before flight would go down very well, so how about local hotel arrangements ?

[eliptic]

Fatigue

I am trying to understand the problem but get some what confused

Is the major problem:

1/ to long travel to get to the "job hours" ?

2/ screwed up FAA regulations (rest/work)?

3/ FAA regulations ok but not enforced/stretched by the employer ?

If 2 and 3, is this something that complies to the majority of pilots/crew?

[Avman]

I doubt a company pilot's barracks for the day before flight would go down very well, so how about local hotel arrangements ?

I believe the hotel arrangement was a lot more common before the beancounters took over. I know that when my wife was an F/A (30 odd years ago) she was also restricted to the distance she could live from base (something like 1 hour´s drive max). I don´t know if F/D crews had similar restrictions. Other than a fairly long drive to the airport, I don´t think that pilots in Europe commute by air to the same extent (and miles) that U.S. pilots do. I was once chatting to the Captain of an oceanic Eastbound (night) flight I took from the East coast telling me that he had commuted in that day from the West coast! There should really be some sort of regulation about that. Many pilots won´t fork out for a hotel at their own expense and airlines won´t restrict distances crews may reside from base or distances from which they may commute.

[ALK A343]

In our company we still have a perimeter within which aircrew are expected to reside and we are provided a company vehicle and driver to pick and drop us back home.
The cockpit crew will share a car or van and the cabin crew will be allocated a bus.
In the little south asian country I live in it is an absolute necessity, as you could spend up to 2 1/2 hours (depending on the traffic situation) commuting to the airport.
This company transport is a lifesaver after a long night flight and you arrive at the airport fully rested.

But even in the developing world things like these are expensive for the company and it is not mandated by the regulator.
It does certainly affect the competitiveness and the customer has no clue about all these extras. Their main concern is airfare.

[swish266]

Many years ago, in Communist times, I reported for duty of all places in the Doctor's office!
1.We had to sign that we had a minimum 8h rest before the flight.
2.Most of the time we had our blood pressure and pulse taken.
3.We were random tested for alcohol - no margin - it had to be 0.00!
The company doctors (about half a dozen) had all the pilots' medical files at their disposal and were familiar with everybody's history. It was not unusual for a stby to be called out because someone was declared unfit to fly...
We had to take each year 2 weeks R&R at a company facility for free either in the mountains or at the sea... No family of course!
Overweight guys were sent on sick leave to slim down at what today is called a "spa"...
Ah, and paid leave - 39 working (not calendar) days per year, if you did more than 400 hours - add 5, more than 600 hours - add another 5 days... Yes - 49 working days a year of paid leave, how about that?
Fatigue?! We didn't even know the word at that time!
Guess if a jerk from our HR reads this it will give him a fit, if not a heart attack!
But remember this only used to happen on the other side of the Iron Curtain...
When people were trying to build a better life, and did not wake up in a cold sweat at night wondering if they are actually bankrupt yet or not...
:mad:

[Romeo India Xray]

My direct manager tells similar stories of his Aeroflot days for the first half of his career (he is now well past the retirement line, but thats another story). I guess there really were some up-sides to the old system although I am sure wages were not one of them!

Fatigue is an issue, I am not going to deny that. There has to be a solution, but as things are I see no way they could get much worse so don't worry any more than you are already!!! - I would go on about my thoughts on augmented and rest periods, but it is late here and I have an ice cold sitting next to me.

The OP cites the European Cockpit Association. This would be the same ECA that I understand has cited European Directive 670/91 in it's rantings to the European Comission earlier this month, seemingly oblivious to the fact that 670/91 has not been in effect since 20 Feb 2008. Guys, this is an organization that attests to protect your interests - be afraid!

RIX

[villian]

Concerning notorious AFL-NORD flight:


extremely low experience on type ,N1 split, non-standard FPD (no FD),
IRS position shift (no TOGA - no threshold update )



and as a final point - state of a highest fatigue ( allmost no rest for 3 nights)
with the great violation of work and rest time, as admitted by official report



and after all just after release of official report, a week ago ( is that a conclusion?) local authorities allowed to increase annual flight hours
by 10% for cockpit crew...


Does this mean a Civil air transportation or Civil War?


P.S. My PA greetings sound completely drunk after 3 consequent nights.

[robins1]

this research has just been published, it may throw some light on one possible cause of pilot error or misjudgment.

Parasite may increase odds of an auto accident - 03 June 2009 - New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227115.000-parasite-may-increase-odds-of-an-auto-accident.html)

makes you want to stay indoors!!

[flipster]

I am certainly going to stop eating cat pooh!!!:uhoh:

[GULFPILOT76]

I really wonder if the EASA study which has been performed by Moebus Aviation on pilot fatique will have any influence on the JAR-FTL in the time to come.

The study revealed a 5.5 times higher risk of incidents/accidents with the legislation now accepted by the EU. New scientific data were at the time accepted by the EU parliament as having influence on the future FTL (SubpartQ).

Airline company's are trying to fight this study with all means available.
EASA seems to join the airline side in this matter.

[villian]

GULFPILOT76 (http://www.pprune.org/members/50927-gulfpilot76)

you still so happy staying out of CIS

[JournalistUK]

Hello everyone, I'm a journalist for a British newspaper and I'm writing a piece about pilot fatigue. I would really like to speak to current, or former, airline pilots of their experiences of fatigue, safety concerns, problems with inadequate rest regulations etc. I think fatigue is a significant safety issue that hasn't been highlighted much, and from reading the forums here, it seems others agree.
Ideally, I would like to speak to pilots with British airlines, or at least those who often fly in and out of UK airports, and (although it would be preferable if anyone who wants to speak to me is happy to be identified) I can also assure absolute anonymity.
You can contact me on < emine1 @ hotmail.com > (without the spaces of course) or via the PM system and I will be happy to give more information.
Thanks,
Emine

[flipster]

Well at least you are being honest about scouring for an article.

Some helpful advice:


1. Read CAA doc CAP 371 - Flight Time Limitations (FTL)
2. Then try contacting BALPA in the next instance (for UK).
3. Search the internet - there is lots of good stuff out there - eg Adelaide Uni in Oz and the RAeS '97 Paper.
4. I think if you search PPrune, there are a number of fatigue related threads.
5. A number of airlines are starting up Fatigue Risk Management Systems as part of their overall Safety Management Systems.
6. Do not take management's word on fatigue - as FTL schemes can be company-specific (ie long haul v short haul, which both have different fatigue threats ie crossing a number of time-zones v multiple sectors). FRMS will be not make much difference IMHO - the threats don't change.

7. It is vital to note the following problems:


a. Neither system (FTL nor FRMS) takes into account the fatigue induced by travelling to or from work 'under own steam' and some people live a long way from their reporting base.

b. Niether system takes into account the fact that crews have lifestyle issues once they return to home eg paperwork, kids, wife, house-maintenence etc, yet most people still need 8 hours sleep per night to function. Some companies will roster the minimum time off between duties.

c. There is no effective and easily-available method of detecting/measuring fatigue - either in yourself or in others - until you get to the 'nodding dog' stage, in which case it is too late; you should have been asleep hours ago!!

d. Sleep debt is culmative and insidious, while far too many people think they can overcome fatigue and are reluctant to admit they are tired.

e. It is a crew's duty to report if not fit to operate (Air Navigation Order) but some companies have been reluctant to accept fatigue as a valid reason.


7. Remember that airlines are businesses and they exist only to make money. Some airlines see crews just as resources to be used to acheive this aim and as such, some will target their staffing levels only to be sufficient to meet their needs and this will mean planning to use their crews right up to the maximum allowed. It is arguable that companies have a duty to ensure their employees are fit to drive home.

8. There is plenty of argument in Europe over suggested EU Working Time Directives - the airlines are up in arms, as they would have to employ more pilots - see also doctors hours and healthcare trusts!

Oh! And by the way, other countires (eg Ireland and the Americas) have it far worse than EU countries.... but they share the same airspace as us - remember that when you next fly!

Best of Luck!

[justanotherflyer]

Neither system (FTL nor FRMS) takes into account the fatigue induced by travelling to or from work 'under own steam'

Nor do they account for assignments, at a moment's notice, to distant airports, under 'own steam' and at one's own expense! Conditions, in other words, that would be totally unacceptable in other industries, and that cannot fail to add to accumulated, unconscious stress.

And conscious resentment.

[Marooned]

Don't restrict your research to the UK only. Remember those of us who fly into the UK half asleep.

FTL (flight time limitations) are targets for the unscrupulous airlines who have no unions to dampen the full effects. Even then they 'interpret' the rules to maximize duty times. Throw in multiple time zones and you have some pretty bleary eyed crews flying around.

And now they have been handed the 'financial crisis' stick to beat us with it will only get worse... All of us, UK or otherwise, are being pushed to increase productivity even further despite some major increases in flying already.

[pool]

The best way to get the real picture would be to accompany a pilot through a typical period over at least 14 days. You should be on the flight deck with them all the time, trying to rest with them and trying to sleep with them throughout all time zones and godforsaken countries .... and finally drive home in your car, just to get convicted of driving under the influence of fatigue (as serious as alcohol in front of the law, by the way) if provocing a crash.

I'm aware that NO airline in the world would allow this, under safety concern pretexts, -> naturally.
Because they know that the journalist would come up with some horror live recount.

But again, to really get what's happening on the front, you should ask beeing a part of it for a while.
Remember the German journalist G. Wallraff? He did things like that undercover and boy were his recounts spectacular. And they initiated a lot!

[JournalistUK]

Thanks everyone for your comments, esp flipster - super-useful, thank you.

I am really looking for pilots who are prepared to share their experiences with me (I reiterate anonymously, if need be) so if anyone is happy to do this, please private message me. I can see from the other fatigue threads here which I have read that it is quite a big issue, but my journalistic standards (!) prevent me from just copying and pasting anonymous comments from internet message boards. (And yes, it is for the Guardian - good detective work, that's the thing about having an unusual name.)

[Hubris]

Emine

Could I recommend that your article could include an examination of the conflicting interests of the regulator(s) in managing FTL. As you will know, or quickly discover, the Aviation Authorities are basically wholly owed subsidiaries of the Airlines that they "regulate". Clearly there has to be a balance between the commercial interests of the Airlines, and the management of safety, but the integrity of this process is entirely unbalanced by the fact that the regulators both individually, and as a whole, rely on the Airlines for their daily bread.

Regards.

[Doug the Head]

Flipster and Hubris, very good points and an accurate summary of the problems and real life implications.

Some helpful advice:While you're at it, add Nicolas Nassim Taleb's "The Black Swan" to your reading list. It's a very interesing book revolving around statistics, risks, risk taking and the ignorance of regulators and managers of an unlikely event to happen... :suspect:

[Che Guevara]

Ideally, I would like to speak to pilots with British airlines, or at least those who often fly in and out of UK airports

Good luck with your research etc., however surely your article would have far more impact with the added input from pilots from other parts of the world who fly in and out the 'world's busiest international airport' every day, often fatigued as a result of questionable FTLs and rostering practices. As Marooned said, you need to Widen your Horizon...and what you find might be startling. Remember, we all share your airspace...

Good luck

[Hussar 54]

You may also want to have a look at this - fairly old and there have been some changes / updates I'm sure, but indicates the wide differences between individual countries' regulations and, therefore, the fatigue issues affecting crews within different airlines...


FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS IN CIVIL AVIATION : A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF 26 NATIONAL REGULATIONS (http://www.ergodata-laa.com/AERO_quest/diapo_4/index.htm)

[Doug the Head]

Why complicate things and drag worldwide questionable FTL's into the debate? We can't change any of 'their' regulations and don't the European FTL's already have enough shortcomings to begin with?

True, we are all sharing the same airspace, but in order to improve things you have to start somewhere and why not start here at home? Besides, how practical is it to accuse country X or Airline Y (from outside Europe/JAR) of unsafe rostering/FTL practices? Banning them from flying in Europe will merely lead to protectionism and retaliation and won't solve anything.

[Mister Geezer]

You have to look outside of the UK and perhaps out of Europe for cases of extreme fatigue. Think of all the foreign airlines that operate into British airport and ask yourself if their pilots are rested and not suffering from fatigue. It will make the whole fatigue issue here in the UK look like a storm in a tea cup.

Also remember that some states will publish an FTL scheme but for various political/commercial reasons, it is not adhered to by the operators nor enforced by the national regulator.

[Dream Buster]

Also remember that some states will publish an FTL scheme but for various political/commercial reasons, it is not adhered to by the operators nor enforced by the national regulator.

Mister Geezer - for your information the low cost seemingly decent airline that I used to fly for in the UK would certainly be included in the above.

Shocked? - I think this must go on everywhere - it's so well covered up ....

DB :ouch:

[Doug the Head]

I guess one can always find another country, another airline or another individual that is seemingly worse off.

It's usually an excuse for inaction... :ugh:

[Dream Buster]

Inaction? I just got out. There is a life outside of flying.....

DB :ok:

[flyboymurphy]

I just want to add a piont regarding commuting in the U.S.

What sometimes happens (and i have seen it happen to friends) is that joe Smyth starts flying for a regional X with bases reasonably close to where he lives.Perhaps thats why he applied to work there. Then regional X loses/changes contracts and flies new/different routes sometimes under a different flag carrier a 1000 miles away, now Joe has to either move across the country for the new routes or commute. Add in the poor salary and moving to the new domiciles is not affordable. What now ?
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation.

[N380UA]

pressman

Ask yourself the question as to why truck drivers are driving less than we are flying.

Simply because there was another kind of lobby behind it. One, which has little to do with money but with the level of safety on our streets. It was a public demand to limit and control driving times due to a number of overworked truck drivers causing deadly accidents as they fell asleep on the wheel.

As it was pointed out, AEA is opposing any changes to the FTLs with their full political weight at the European Commission because of the feared associated cost.

As long as there is no accident – as the AEA pointed out – there is no need to change any rules and regulations. However, a non-event does not prove that a system is safe. As it has been stated so often, if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.

EASA is trying to do the right thing alright, but they are, as so many other organisations controlled by politicians which in turn are controlled by those with the cash (AEA in this instance).

The initial EASA FTL study was supposed to be followed up by an assessment of proposals for FTL schemes or certification specifications with the airlines. Although this assessment was to start in May, the call is still open today. This goes to show the political impact Subpart Q has on our EU regulator.

The European FTL issue has been a political one for the last 15 years or so and will likely to be one for the coming 15 years. As long as there is no accident where fatigue is cited as clear cause, as sad as this sounds, or IFALPA/ECA go on strike there won’t be any political motivation for tighter FTLs.

[stepwilk]

"What sometimes happens (and i have seen it happen to friends) is that joe Smyth starts flying for a regional X with bases reasonably close to where he lives.Perhaps thats why he applied to work there. Then regional X loses/changes contracts and flies new/different routes sometimes under a different flag carrier a 1000 miles away, now Joe has to either move across the country for the new routes or commute. Add in the poor salary and moving to the new domiciles is not affordable. What now ?
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation."

People move all the time in pursuit of non-flying jobs, even low-paid individuals (and then it's called "migration"). The difference is that airline pilots can deadhead--commute for free. If they had to pay for their rides, you can bet they'd quickly find a way to move.

[gtf]

True that people paid lower wages than pilots do move to follow their job, or the next job, but the regional industry changes so quickly in the US some crew would have had to move two or three times a year if it were not for commuting.

At the same time, there has to be a limit. I think we can all agree a red-eye straight off some skiing just before a shift isn't the wisest way to avoid fatigue either (Colgan). Question is, as always, where is the line ?

Fatigue would be paid more attention by the powers-that-be if SLF cared more than just after a serious accident too, but it's the opposite. Just recently I was among the masses when a crew decided he hadn't had enough rest due to renovations at the hotel (sounds familiar?) and had the TATL flight delayed. Riot nearly ensued!

[InvestigateUdom]

I lost my brother in OG269 in Sept 2007. The immediate cause of the crash was pilot fatigue, as the pilots had flown well in excess of the 110 hours allowed by Thai law for the month. As far as I know - unless the NTSB has done it - no one made any attempt to calculate the actual duty time. Once we families made certain the Thai CAA couldn't blame wind shear (we published the blackbox info), the government moved to blame the pilots, attempting to let the issue die with the dead.

All modern governments depend on a trusted aviation system. Even in the worst environments, commercial aircraft are so safe and have so much redundancy, crashes are infrequent. Therefore, a government can address issues or they can obfuscate issues. Obfuscation is very tempting and probably rather frequent. Meanwhile, an uniformed public is unable to judge and is unable to improve aviation safety. All the public can do is feel a crash is luck (or unluck) of the draw.

We, the families who lost loved ones in the worst of circumstances, can insist upon getting to the truth. With the Internet, we can communicate the truth. To use my situation as an example, via pprune and other mechanisms, we were able to obtain the blackbox, proof of regular check-ride fraud, the pilots' scheduled hours, the pilots' schedules as given to the NTSB, and video of the Thai CAA being informed and taking no action. We can prove the insurance company was fully informed, but continues to provide insurance because it is profitable, etc.) Not only can we learn the truth, we publish the truth and we insist upon the truth. Look what the families accomplished with 3 days of hearings on the Colgan crash! We families must insist the NTSB document cause well beyond "flight crew error". We wish the media would do so as well.

For those interested: www.InvestigateUdom.com (http://www.InvestigateUdom.com)

[RAT 5]

And let's not forget those airlines with immaginative FTL accounting e.g. zero-ing everyone on 1st April rather than using a rolling 12 months to calculate the 'annual' limit. The same can be said about the meaning of a 'week'. For some people this does not mean a rolling 7 days???? The world is a strange place. It does seem odd when lawyers are so tight looking over our shoulders all the time. but they let unscrupulous pratices from the employers go by.

What has always been a fact is that FTL's have expanded to match the endurance of a/c. "It's the profit stupid." For long-haul with beds this might not be too bad, but the short-haul bean counters use it to an unreasonable limit.

[411A]

All this beating of gums over fatigue.
I have the distinct feeling that perhaps (more) than a few pilots simply don't want to work the hours for which they were hired in the first place.

Fatigued?
Call in and say so.

Works for me.
Head shed says...OK, go to HOTAC and advise when fully rested.
No, if, ands, or buts about it.
Done.

Fly fatigued and have an incident/accident...the company will right and truly hang you out to dry.

[446th Globi]

Fly fatigued and have an incident/accident...the company will right and truly hang you out to dry But if you call in saying you are fatigued more then once forget advancement. Do it more than three times and get terminated. We :mad: if we do and :mad: if we don’t!
Like the AF447 crew. I wonder how fit they were handling their situation at 4am local CET notwithstanding the fact that they surely kept to their minimum crew rest time…

[411A]

Sorry, 446th Globi, if you fly long-haul, you just have to cope.
If not, you surely don't belong at the pointy end.
End of story.

[446th Globi]

It’s one thing to cope with it under a decent FTL regime and another under ludicrous minimum times for rest. Like a fellow earlier said; bus and truck drivers (on the street) have more stringent rules than we have.
Regardless of long or short haul. I remember times waking up in bed remembering how I landed and the debriefing but have no recollection of how I was driving home… and I am not the only one with this experience.
Anyone saying that this is a safe condition is nuts! For you say cope with it or get out sound much like management. Just that management that is skimming of too much cash and willing to compromise safety for a bit more. A I right???

[Wingswinger]

To my knowledge, in the company I work for 4 pilots have crashed their cars due to falling asleep at the wheel while driving home. One other went off the road when he had a micro-sleep while DRIVING TO WORK. He was on the last day of a particularly taxing series of duties. He sat dazed in his car and called crewing to say he didn't think he would fly that day.

The company I work for uses simulator slots between 2300 and 0500 local time. Leave aside for a moment the stupidity of trying to train people in the dead of night. The simulator is deemed to be located at a major base of the company I work for. It isn't. It's 20 miles away. Pilots who are "out of base" for the simulator detail are given hotel rooms but pilots who are not "out of base" are not, regardless of the distance they commute (plus an additional 40 miles round trip if they live the wrong side) . The managers responsible say they know they have a duty of care but they will not provide a room at the company's expense to mitigate the fatiguing effects of such duty hours. If one wishes to stay safe while driving it's at one's own expense. For those from other bases, it isn't. Wrong.

On the plus side, when I have called in fatigued, I fill in a form and that's it. No call for a chat without coffee.

[Facelookbovvered]

Comparisons with driving a heavy goods vehicle are somewhat miss leading, whilst the concentration required pre flight and during take off and landing is far higher once in the cruise it is boredom that needs addressing.

Driving a heavy goods vehicle you will be subject to more noise, changes in temp, delays and frustration plus the aggresion of other road user's, in an aircraft you can let your guard down at times (go down the back for a piss) and there are at least two of you.

If you work for any short haul airline (not just Loco) here in the UK you are going to work fairly hard for your money, where you live and have to work is a big factor and often results in the breakdown of relationship, not because of the stress that distance puts on a family, but all to often because you are away from home in hotel's with members of the opposite sex and a lot of (male) pilots can't keep their d**k in their pockets.

As for work induced fatigue, yes it happens, but in my experiance it is all too often to do with the changes between early/lates and lack of rest.

We have pilots who travel over 90 minutes to work, which means they must be up at 3 am and are heading back over the M62 at 5pm in the rush hour perhaps getting home at 7pm to do the same tomorrow, just 8 hours later. For many moving isn't an option even swapping house at the price level involves many £k... in stamp duty and legal costs

A good friend at bmi regional is a case in point, he has travelled over the M62 for several years and last Autumn with high fuel prices he had enough and put his property up for sale, just last week he agreed a sale only to find out that bmi are pulling the aircraft and he could well be heading to ABZ

My point is that the fatigue is about far more than just the hours, my advice to anyone looking at coming into this industry, is to think long and hard about it, its not the Virgin add you see on telly, unless you are very lucky and get in with someone who doesn't play musical bases, then plan on living in a trailer or canal barge, i understand that bmi will not pay a penny in relocation cost, but may be forced to pay redundency if relocation is not a realistic propostion

[Jwscud]

I'm only a wannabe at the moment, but I currently work as Navigating Officer (keeping 4 hours on, 8 hours off bridge watches) in commercial shipping. I thought the seagoing fatigue guidelines might be interesting for comparison:

Minimum 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period, with rest in not more than 2 periods, one of which to be a minimum of 6 hours.

Minimum 77 hours rest per week.

The regulations are more in-depth than that, but that's the basic outline of rest requirements for watchkeepers. These guidelines are also based on the knowledge that your bed is never more than a few decks away from you, and on a job that requires minimal fine motor skills.

It also requires far lower instantaneous levels of concentration for shorter time periods (ie a maximum of 4 hours, possibly 6 on rare occasions on watch).

[girtbar]

I know this is centering around F/D fatigue, but Ezy has just had an alleviation from the CAA to allow their cabin crew to "trial" a flexible roster. Its a killer with several crew a month filling in fatigue reports.

I guess as Cabin Crew are thought of as ten a penny, it doesn't seem to be high up on the agenda.

Will there have to be yet another serious incident where fatigue plays a part before serious steps are taken to prevent/improve fatigue issues.

[framer]

Driving a heavy goods vehicle you will be subject to more noise, changes in temp, delays and frustration plus the aggresion of other road user's, in an aircraft you can let your guard down at times (go down the back for a piss) and there are at least two of you.

I guess it's different for different people but I disagree with you on this. I have driven trucks for a living and currently fly 73's on short haul.
I think that the reduced oxygen of being at a cabin altitude of 8000ft for seven hours a day has a significant effect. Also, with 30 min turn arounds and five or six sectors there is very little time to relax. A ten minute break, out of the aircraft, sitting in a crew room would set me up well for the second half of a day but unfortunately that luxury is long gone. I used to enjoy it when we could do this, it was a social time as well and seemed to ease the mental stresses.

[Ancient Observer]

There are many examples in our world of things much more dangerous than planes, which are run 24 x 7 by people on wierd and wonderful rosters..........think of chemical plants, nuclear plants and so on. They often have very creative, very flexible rosters. The individuals in control have just as much responsibility as pilots. They also have the possibility of fatigue.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them aswell.
However, I think you will find that none of them are allowed to "commute" in the same way that some pilots do. Some pilots think nothing of commutes of 90 min.s or more each way.
If I was in charge of an airline, long commutes are one thing I would ban as they are unsafe.

[Uncle Fred]

Ancient Observer wrote


think of chemical plants, nuclear plants and so on. They often have very creative, very flexible rosters. The individuals in control have just as much responsibility as pilots. They also have the possibility of fatigue.
They work much longer hours than pilots and cc.
I would suggest that you research them as well.



Well, it is interesting that you should admonish us to do so as to an extent I have when I was writing a short book two years ago. I post a short sentence or two from my discussions with a a chance meeting that I had with a sleep researching physician. The operators/workers in the nuclear and chemical industry face a litany of fatigue issues themselves. It is increasingly coming under researchers' purview that anyone who works in a "rotating shift" environment is prone to a number of physical and psychological stress issues.

Having grown up within sight of the Three Mile Reactor, I have little doubt that this growing corpus body of research is not far from the mark.

This, in my humblest of opinions, is where the journalist from the Guardian should start to form the framework for his writings--the coorelation between air transport work and other industries in their approaches in scheduling and the pitfalls such work schedules present.

I use the below words with my own permission :)

Seated next to me was a physician, a sleep researcher, from a renowned medical university, who had begun the conversation by asking me what I thought of the way in which aircraft were pressurized and the high cabin altitudes at which we flew for hours. I quickly realized that this man was asking a little more than the usual “is it true that we are at the same altitude in the plane as being at a ski resort in Colorado?” In fact, I was so startled by his breadth of knowledge, that soon it was I who was asking questions of him, but not before he posed an intriguing problem.

He waxed a bit philosophical as he asked me if I knew what the Union Carbide accident in Bhopal India, the incident at Three Mile Island, the oil spill from the Exxon Valdez, and many trucking accidents have in common. I thought for a moment as I twisted my dinner fork around a few times. When he realized that my answers were well wide of the mark, he revealed that the common thread was that all occurred under the supervision of shift workers at a time when they normally would have been asleep. Bhopal and the Exxon Valdez occurred shortly after midnight, Three Mile Island at 4 a.m., and the trucking accidents have a strong statistical cluster between 4 and 7 a.m. They were not just night shift workers, he went on, but much worse, workers in which the schedules were constantly rotating between day and night. The physician, already knowing the answer smiled mischievously and asked, “Do you ever work schedules like that?”

There is, of course, much more to the stories of Bhopal, Three Mile Island and the other incidents than just workers who needed to be in the land of Nod instead of on the clock, but he was touching on a theme that is almost an obsession with aircrews around the world, namely work rest cycles and how and when to get good rest.

[PK-KAR]

I wonder if the Journo in question is interested in fatigue effects of number of cycles per duty...

[Ancient Observer]

UF - good point.
There is no consistent, agreed set of "sleep research", which is why so many variations on rosters inside and outside Aviation exist. The military should have it all cracked - but they do not appear to.
I would expect the operators of a nuclear sub. to be working optimal shifts for concentration. However, we just do not know whether or not that is true!

[dicksorchard]

The above are not my words but the headline for the online article taken from the CNN website . it may or may not be interesting to you guys concerning the issue of fatigue .

The article is in relation to the accident report into the Continental Flight 3407 which was operated by Colgan Air Inc


Pilot fatigue is like 'having too much to drink' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/05/15/pilot.fatigue.buffalo.crash/index.html#cnnSTCText)

hard hitting journalism , complete b..sh.t , or the truth ...im not sure but its interesting to read .

[Jetset320]

My company has recently revised FTLs, reflecting the extentions that the local Authority has recently approved (after consultation with the National carrier).

Now a two-man crew can operate up to 13 hours for morning flights and the previous 30 min post-flight is no longer included in the FDP. In-one fell-swoop, 1 hour 30 mins were added to FTLs.

If it is a night flight FTLs are lower...... but not by much, however as a loop-hole, augmented crews are allowed, HOWEVER unless the flight is over 12 hours, no rest facilities are provided. (some rest one gets on the jumpseat :ugh:).

Should the flight be longer than 12 hours (and at night) then the company has to give one economy seat for augmented crew to get his/her 'rest'. This seat is at the very back, and does not even recline, is 50 cm from the toilet electric flushing and is precicely where toilet queue gathers, with curious and surprised pax, always passing their usual comments ("who's flying the plane?")

Just last week I had a two sector 11 hour (duty) red-eye flight, which for a matter of minutes was just two-man crew, and on return, towards top of decent, at something like 8am, I just could not keep my eyes open. I had rested the afternoon before, and felt OK for both departures, so what should I have done? Inflight diversion? That would have woken me up!

Oh, and after a flight like that one needs a local night off. That means duty at 8am, which means getting up at 6am. Now thats quality rest for you, init?:ugh:

[sanjaime]

FAA administrator says he'll pursue new rules on airline pilot hours to curb fatigue
6/15/09 11:20PM GMT
By JOAN LOWY , Associated Press Writer

Obama administration officials said Monday they will propose new limits on how many hours airline pilots can fly in an effort to curb pilot fatigue, an issue safety officials have been urging action on for two decades.
Randy Babbitt, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration, said he will propose the new rule in the next several months. A former airline pilot who has been at FAA only a few weeks, Babbitt said the issues is complicated because a pilot flying fewer hours with more takeoffs and landings will likely experience more fatigue than a pilot on a longer flight with only one takeoff and one landing.

[Uncle Fred]

Ancient Observer

You make a good point about the type of research. Having started out flying military transports I have always taken a bleary-eyed but avid lay interest in this field and have tried to do as much germane reading as possible. That of course does not make me anything close to a research expert but it did allow me to draw perhaps one conclusion and that concerning rotating shift schedules.

After having poured over the likes of Dr. Rosekind's publications (when he was still at Nasa-Ames and which I found rather diconnected from how a true line sweaty/smelly feels after a month of tough rosters) and his sawing on about Zeitgebers and how the sun cures all ills (exageration intended on my part), I realized that so many of these studies were looking at limited time frames--a few flights at a time.

A couple of years ago however, I ran across a study that was performed in one of the American plants of a Japanese automaker--say it was Toyota or Honda/Acura. The management, to foster morale, gave the workers the option of how they would like to arrange their schedules. In conjunction with a worker's council they adopted the rotating schedule that brought workers through the 24 hour cycle. In other words, first week or two one worked 7:30 to 4:30. Then for two weeks from 4:30 until midnight or so and then the third rotation from late at night until early morning.

Over a year the researchers found markedly higher incidences of sick leave, mood swings and changes, and all the rest. Of course no matter what kind of schedule personnel will still fall ill, have domestic troubles etc., but so marked was the uptick in these mental health areas that the workers, surprised at what had happened with them, then voted in the council to go back to set schedules for 6 months before they rotated (if at all). So although morale was high and the company made the workers feel needed, a rotating schedule basicall (no pun intended) cleaned their clocks.

What the workers thought was a great deal actually knocked the stuffing out of them. Surprisingly, it was one of the first (although I soon discovered that there were a couple of others) studies that I had read that took a look at the rotating shift scenario. That, in aviation seems to be one of the real problems and it was what the physician that I mentioned in my writing was so keenly focused on.

I wish that I could speak with him again, as he was well versed in this and thus his reference to Bhopal, Three Mile Island, and the other shift work incidents.

What I really wish I could speak with him about however, is if there has been any advancement in what he thought could very quickly measure tiredness and fatigue--that of using light to measure how quickly the pupil dialates. He thought it was the "killer app" for measuring attentiveness, much in the same way that LEOs use it for drunk driving suspicion. Ntocie the phrase "attentiveness." For that is really the key and is the bottom line IMHO whether one has been ground to dust working in the mines 20 days in a row, or if simply you missed a night of sleep whilst working and your brain is trying to grab some micro sleep.

Can you imagine the apopletic response however, from the ATA if this were actually tried out and the tiredness that was discovered sloshing around in the world's air transport industry? It would take legions of ATA spokesmen and women to fight a pitched battle against medical reality--something perhaps akin to the tobacco industry denying that smoking was bad for you.


One thing that I found interesting in the reading and discussion with physicians however, was that they often tended (although this is not true across the board) to equate tiredness with fatigue. If I have been on vacation for 6 months but have to get up at 3 a.m. to drive to the airport and operate a flight I very well might be tired. Same if I have been on vacation for 6 months and now am flying the red-eye but have been awake for the last 24 hours. As one researcher told me, "someone can fall asleep at the wheel of a car" by being tired and not fatigued. In this case, the number of hours since the last QUALITY sleep opporunity outweighs what one was doing for the past two weeks... Micro sleep and other BWP activity can come about with or without weeks of previous fatigue accretion.

From the land of Nod...

[Uncle Fred]

Sanjaime

I almost fear seeing what Babbit et al have planned. I know for some sleeping patterns the rules proposed might actually make things worse. As you can see from my previous post, it also worries me how they use the word "fatigue." Remember, the overarching principle here has not, heretofore, been fatigue allieviation, but rather economic viability. :(

[Ancient Observer]

UF
I looked in to this in some detail, but about 20 years ago! The research, as I remember it now, and memory can be wrong, was thin, and in the UK was mainly in the MoD. Sectors such as nuclear and chemicals had no "clean" research. The research focussed on speed and accuracy of response when something goes wrong in complicated circumstances. Naturally, the events were "simulated", as doing real research in to firing atomic bombs and so on might upset neighbouring states.
Their conclusion was the same as the earlier poster from the military. 4 hours on, 4 hours off, with a full 8 hour break every so often - I can't remember the frequency.
However, to put against your Japanese car firm example, the UK chemical/pharma sector allows staff much freedom to set their own rotas. The staff preference was to have relatively quickly rotating patterns, with bursts of work, in either 8 or 12 hour shifts, concentrated to-gether so that time off could be bundled together. The medic.s who looked at these patterns found no particular problems, other than the "early hours" (in the morning) slower responses - but they happen whatever rotation the shift cycle uses. There were no repeats of the problems you described in the Japanese car firm. I've lots of theories as to why that might be, but they are beyond my typing skills.

[RAT 5]

It is still a very simple case of the tail wagging the dog.
1. A/C can fly further and for longer time so companies demand that crews work longer hours than years ago. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.
2. New type of operations require that a/c operate very different patterns to years ago. So crews have to change their life style and sleep patterns to match the schedules the companies want. Not necessarily in-line with good human performance.

The rules have beedn relaxed and stretched for economic reasons. The applicable medical knowledge/application of many years ago was based more on common sense and respect of a good balance between work and play time. That has gone. Respect of play/family time has disappeared in search of more profit at all costs.

Much human performance research has been done in relation to this topic. It has not been repected and acknowledged as it is inconvenient. Remember CAA's have a conflict of interest in their policing activities. Who are they really protecting; the airlines, the crews or the passengers?

[Jetset320]

Something moving at the FAA.................

FAA starts 'expedited review' of pilot rest rules, plans 'rapidly' to develop new rule
Thursday June 25, 2009
Related Microsites
Stay ahead with the latest aviation & MRO industry news : Delta TechOps
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US FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said yesterday that the agency is initiating "an expedited review of flight and rest rules" and "will work rapidly to develop and implement a new flight time and rest rule."

Babbitt said that "pilot fatigue [is now] a high priority" for FAA and called for US airlines and pilot unions "to respond [to FAA] by July 31 with specific commitments to strengthen safety at regional and major airlines." He said carriers must "obtain all available FAA pilot records, among other actions."

In a statement, he said he will establish an Aviation Rulemaking Committee on pilot fatigue by July 15 comprising FAA, labor and industry representatives "that will be charged with developing recommendations for an FAA rule by September 1." Also by July 15, FAA inspectors "will complete a focused review of airline procedures for identifying and tracking pilots who fail evaluations or demonstrate a repetitive need for additional training." Inspectors additionally will review airlines' pilot training and qualification programs to ensure they meet FAA standards.

"Safety remains the airlines' top priority," Air Transport Assn. President and CEO James May said yesterday, adding that Babbitt's statement "reflects our shared commitment to adopt meaningful safety initiatives on an aggressive timeline."

Congress and FAA have become intensely interested in pilot training and rest procedures, particularly at US regional airlines, in the aftermath of February's fatal crash of a Colgan Air Q400 outside Buffalo. Babbitt, formerly president of the Air Line Pilots Assn. and an Eastern Airlines pilot for more than 25 years, signaled last week that the agency this summer would tackle aggressively issues surrounding pilot training and fatigue and rest rules (ATWOnline, July 17).

Babbitt said he told airlines in a letter sent yesterday that they should "immediately adopt a policy to ensure that their pilot applicants release any records held by the FAA to the hiring air carrier while the agency works with Congress to update the current Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996." He added that FAA "expects airlines that have contractual relationships with regional feeder companies to develop specific programs to share safety data and ensure that their partner airlines mirror their most effective safety practices."

by Aaron Karp

ATW Daily News (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=17032)

[Bus429]

I wrote to Mr Shoesmith with a few Human Factors pointers - he couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge receipt.:=