Passengers wounded by turbulence

[denkraai]

14 Passengers were wounded because of heavy turbulence on a Lufthansa flight from Munich to Lisbon last night. The Airbus 321 made an intermediate stop in Geneva, where some passengers were hospitalized.:uhoh:

[wobble2plank]

Went down to Rome yesterday evening, nothing particularly untoward? Little bit of turbulence downwind of the Alps but nothing that wasn't forecast.

Might teach people that the seat belt signs aren't there just for them to ignore as they seem to know more about flying than the guys/girls in the front. Like the passenger that declared he could sit in any seat in the aeroplane because this stuff about trim was all rubbish. Oddly enough the aircraft was right on the limits for trim and he was told to sit in his allocated seat, when he didn't he had to be told by me and I had to explain the problem with aircraft out of trim. Finally he moved but wasted 10 minutes of my time before push back.

:ugh:

[Avitor]

I wonder if my habit of ALWAYS using my seat belt would have helped me to avoid injury!

[Cacophonix]

I am not a commercial pilot but would be very interested to get the opinions of the pros as to what constitutes severe turbulence?

Flying a light twin in clear VFR conditions close to the Brecon beacons I have hit turbulence that had me alternatively weightless (would have hit the roof if not for the lap belt) and banging my teeth as I bumped back into the seat for a period of about a minute. I counted that as severe turbulence but then again in a heavier, bigger aircraft that might have been a brief couple of bumps and nothing at all.

Are there specific criteria for reporting, light, moderate and severe turbulence or is it all fairly subjective?

[pilot999]

:ugh:damn hate it when people in heavy aircraft call atc that they are in moderate to severe turbulance when most of the time all they are in is light to moderate, poss, not even turbulance just chop. when these guys experiance severe turbulance they'll know about. I;ve been in severe and can say it is not much fun.speed +/- 40 knots, unsecured items flung around the cabin.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Once heard a Pan Am pilot ask for climb clearance because he was experiencing turbulence. Gander ATC asked him what category of turbulence he was experiencing ? The reply ....... " Waal, I dunno what y'all would call it, but I've got white caps on my coffee "
He got his request.

Wish I'd thought of that.

[wobble2plank]

A little rusty as to the 'exact' definitions but:

Light turbulence is a gentle buffet of the aircraft that causes mild discomfort but not affecting the altitude or airspeed of the aircraft.

Moderate turbulence, causes discomfort in the cabin, minor disruption to the aircraft altitude and attitude and minor fluctuations of airspeed in the region of +/- 10 kts.

Severe turbulence, temporary loss of control of the aircraft. Large fluctuations in the airspeed. Dramatic changes in aircraft attitude and altitude. Severe discomfort in the cabin and anything that isn't properly secured will be flying about.

Very, very, very rare to get severe turbulence. Mostly get light but occasionally, generally when entering or exiting a jet-stream or down wind of mountainous terrain on a windy day, might get a bit of moderate.

As the primary aim of an airliner is the safe, comfortable transit of passengers, any of the above is to be avoided if possible!

Enjoy

[transilvana]

VFR turbulence low level is not as dangerous as high level turbulence, I´ll explain later. I would say severe turbulence feelings are followed by us with the word "what the fuc..."

I´ve experienced severe turbulence once at FL410, aircraft went into high speed stall, lots of buffering for 5sec, throttle back and went close to low speed stall. That lasted for about 15sec, we went down not even requesting permission from ATC, we had moderate turb. for another 10 min then all light turb for 1hour or so.

The problem with high speed is getting into stall, up there the Confin corner is really small, some times 15 knots or less if you 450 or above so when you get moderate turb you try to go down to get more air around.

On VFR low level twin you take care of your low speed stall, not to worry about high speed, sure you will bump a lot but it´s easier and less dangerous.

[Double Zero]

As SLF on airliners, I use my seat-belt at all times unless I have to visit the loo or something.

I decided on this partly after quite a few ' vigourating ' light aircraft flights as photographer, and partly after hearing of the various incidents where explosive decompression, for one reason or another, has caused people to exit the aircraft when they'd have preferred not to.

The lap-straps on airliners are certainly not uncomfortable, though a better harness might give one a fraction more of a chance if anything moderately nasty re. mildly interfacing with the ground happened.

I can't help thinking ' seat belts on ' should be standard, and ' off ' should be the exception ?

[Checkboard]

Turbulence experienced does indeed change for the individual aircraft type flying through the area, as such the definitions for light, moderate, and severe turbulence are written as subjective experiences by the pilot/passengers/crew.

As a rule of thumb for aircraft big enough for you to walk around in:


If you are being bumped around but are not concerned about it - there is no definition - this is less than "light" turbulence, and is normally reported by the colloquial expression of "light chop"
If you are concerned enough to put the seatbelt sign on, but the cabin crew may still move about - this is now "light" turbulence.
If you are concerned enough to use the PA to instruct the cabin crew to be seated - that is, walking about is difficult, making it too high a risk for anyone not to be seated, then you are in "Moderate" turbulence.
If you no longer able to control your speed or altitude to comply with your clearance, you are in "Severe" turbulence. IMO this warrants a PAN call, for a block clearance in the first instance, and a priority diversion to safer airspace.


The idea that the passengers,but not the cabin crew, can be required to be seated in light turbulence is not because the cabin crew have any special skill. It is simply because seating 150 odd passengers, and checking their belts are on takes time.

The idea is that you seat the passengers first in light turbulence so that if the turbulence then increases, the few cabin crew can be instructed to take their seats virtually instantly.

I can't help thinking ' seat belts on ' should be standard, and ' off ' should be the exception ?
That wouldn't work, it would encourage the seat belt sign to be ignored. You actually don't have the option, legally, of undoing your seatbelt (even for the toilet!), without permission when the sign is on. (Yes, you can ask for permission.)

[Duck Rogers]

Given the thread drift I think this now belongs in Safety & CRM although just one more anecdote will qualify it for the soon to be invented War Stories forum. If you boys and girls feel like coming back on topic let us know and we'll bring you back to R&N. ;)


Duck

[Cacophonix]

Wobble2Plank - Thanks for the definitions. I am guessing that injuries place the event described in this thread in the moderate to severe categories?

Transilvana - I am guessing you operate a business/military jet or something like that because those Flight Levels seem at the high end for the large commercial aircraft I read about here on PPRUNE.

I tend to grub along at low level (FL120 max) so haven't ever experienced that kind of altitude, even as a passenger on a commerical aicraft.

If I understand your post correctly you are saying that the margin between your stall speed and potential buffet (transonic?) becomes smaller as your altitude increases (please put me right here if I have misunderstood or just got it wrong). It sounds like a tough place to be, even without turbulence.

What is the recovery procedure if you start buffeting, reduce speed to reduce buffet and then stall at high speed? How often are you likely to encounter even moderate turbulence above FL410?

It sounds like a recipe for hiigh stress.

[llondel]

Avitor:
I wonder if my habit of ALWAYS using my seat belt would have helped me to avoid injury!

Not necessarily, if someone else who didn't have his belt on hits the ceiling and comes back down on top of you. However, your chances are much improved compared to the case where it's you coming down from the ceiling.

Not wearing your seatbelt can endanger others as well.

[Snoopy]

«Meine Frau flog plötzlich an die Decke» - News Panorama: Vermischtes - tagesanzeiger.ch (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/Meine-Frau-flog-ploetzlich-an-die-Decke/story/14753475)

Swiss German newspaper article quotes the President of the Portuguese parliament as saying they had their belts fastened and apart from the crew, most of those injured were passengers who had opened their seatbelts.

[Avman]

Personally, I´d like to see this thread removed! Every time we have a turbulence incident thread, all the same patronising cr@p and old stories surface again. I´ve noticed that it´s become a rarity to read anything original these days. :zzz:

[Bullethead]

lirbrianship

I'll have to go to a lirbry and look that one up! :} :E

[Cacophonix]

Including the supplementary g loading – positive or negative, relative to the normal 1 g load, are:

Very low – below 0.05 g – Light oscillations
Low – 0.05 to 0.2 g – Choppy; slight, rapid, rhythmic bumps or cobblestoning
Moderate – 0.2 to 0.5 g – Strong intermittent jolts
Severe – 0.5 to 1.5 g – Aircraft handling made difficult
Very severe – above 1.5 g – Increasing handling difficulty, structural damage possible.