View Full Version : 2 flames out on Airbus?
batman123
8th May 2009, 08:32
what happen on the ecam when you have suddenly 2 engines flame out.
Can not even test this failure in a sim!!??.
Do you have time for ecam action, do I have to shut off the valves?
The Ecam list is probably too long. call for ecam action, and see the face of your copilot...
TyroPicard
8th May 2009, 09:28
Well, a lot depends on whether you started with 2 or 4.....
hetfield
8th May 2009, 09:43
A300
The sim is doing that very accurate. No Ecam, Memory items. Yes, Fuel Levers off-and on.
Max Angle
8th May 2009, 09:47
Did it in the sim. (A320) just the other day. You get a master warning and bell (same as a fire) and a "ENG DUAL FAILURE" ECAM procedure although Airbus recommend that you use the QRH for this failure rather than the ECAM.
Flight Detent
8th May 2009, 09:56
OK Guys....
No peekin'....suppose you did these memory items, and whilst the engines were still hot and turnin' they lit-off again....
then...damn it, they both restarted into a stalled condition, and the RPM started to slow and the EGT started to rise a little too much....
what now...as I said, no peekin', you wouldn't get time in the actual..go ahead NOW..the EGTs still rising, more rapidly now...RPMs dying.....
right now, what would you do...(your FOs still lookin' at you in expectation),
These are CFMs, you only have two of them, and no FE....
What would you do?
Cheers...FD...:uhoh:
Henry VIII
8th May 2009, 10:00
Well, a lot depends on whether you started with 2 or 4.....GREAT :ok:
Max Angle described the procedure.
As far as I remember the ECAM warning should be ENG ALL ENG FLAME OUT.
18-Wheeler
8th May 2009, 10:00
What would you do?
EJECT!
EJECT!
EJECT!
(not really) :)
yeh, like its a new thing, that aircraft is just an accident waiting to happen
Max Angle
8th May 2009, 10:25
Great first post Zagga, thanks for your valuable input. :D
Red Master Warning and CRC. ALL ENG FLAME OUT
LAND ASAP
Dual Engine failure > RAT deployment means ESS BUS will be powered.
Due to windmealing still HYDR. PRESS of 3000PSI, That means U have still Power and Flight Controls, with enouhg Altitude relight the ENG's by ECAM or QRH.
Detected Flame out > Cont. Ignition
We see it when the A/C is jacked and no CB pulled. Gives a nasty sound and all the little gizmos are blinking.
rgds
hetfield
8th May 2009, 10:52
2 eng out, no time for mealing.
Please serve meals later.
;)
batman123
8th May 2009, 11:10
what 's the first thing to do to restart when no engine left(320 of course) ? you know at 1000 feet, you don't have time to mess with these ECAM procedures.
switch on APU,master ignition on START, power lever on IDLE, wait to see if engine start from windmilling.
if not try master switch OFF then ON?
which engine to try to restart, left or right?
Henry VIII
8th May 2009, 11:12
Basically you need a minimum airspeed to windmill enough.
In 1000 ft ? Fasten yr seatbelts and avoid the impact.
Normal Airbus logic is (with enough altitude and yes it' called windMILLING:ok:)
Air autostart sequence
When the autostart sequence logic is active in flight, the ECU initiates the automatic starting sequence to control:
the opening of the starter SOV (for starter assisted operation when N2 lt; 16 percent, opening and closing with starter reengagement protection).
the excitation of both ignition systems when starting is controlled.
the opening of the HP fuel SOV and FMV when N2 > 12 percent below
20000 ft or N2 > 15 percent above 20 000 ft.
the closing of the starter SOV and cutting off of the ignition at N2 > 50 percent.
In the event of an abnormal start, the ECU provides fault annunciation to the
FWC, which generates warning messages for pilots action.
The ECU has no authority to abort the starting sequence in flight. The ECU
identifies the windmilling or starter assisted air start conditions according to the flight environmental parameters (Mach, altitude), and the engine parameters.
The engine can be relight without using the starter, provided N2 > 12 percent
below 20000 ft or N2 > 15 percent above 20 000 ft.
In order to guard against the effects of some failures which could jeopardize
the in–flight restart the ignition and fuel are selected ”ON” by the ECU in the
following conditions:
insufficient air pressure at the starter SOV inlet (if bleed manifold pressure
parameter is valid).
the starter SOV does not open or acceleration problems
Looks that we need in dual Eng failure the APU, but I think at normal Airspeed we have round about 20% N2 with windmilling.
Autostart sequence is activated by Mode selector in IGN/Start
rgds
lomapaseo
8th May 2009, 13:08
OK Guys....
No peekin'....suppose you did these memory items, and whilst the engines were still hot and turnin' they lit-off again....
then...damn it, they both restarted into a stalled condition, and the RPM started to slow and the EGT started to rise a little too much....
what now...as I said, no peekin', you wouldn't get time in the actual..go ahead NOW..the EGTs still rising, more rapidly now...RPMs dying.....
right now, what would you do...(your FOs still lookin' at you in expectation),
These are CFMs, you only have two of them, and no FE....
What would you do?
cycling the fuel on-off does wonders for getting out of a compressor stall condition and its quick as well This of course presumes that you are above min N2 start condition. It's when you drop below min N2 start that you need other alternatives :)
when you turn off the flame it drops the burner pressure and it's like opening up a great big bleed valve unloading the compressor
Flight Detent
11th May 2009, 02:54
lomapaseo....
Right on...
Just keep cycling the Start Lever(s) if the engine EGT rises too much or it won't light-off..
Just like the FE did in that famous 4-engine flameout in a BA 747 Classic near Indonesia some time ago!
Eventually the engine(s) started, as they decended into more dense air.
BUT...don't be too quick with the cycling, all turbojets windup very slowly at higher altitudes, so if it's accelerating and the EGT is not in danger of overtemping, keep it going!
Just thought I'd ask...there seems to be WAY to much dependence on the computer generated messaging systems, rather than knowing what you're about, and how the airplane works...
Cheers...FD...:)
pensador
11th May 2009, 08:41
The only you must remember is the golden rules. Fly-PFD1,alternate law. Navigate- RMP1, VOR1. Communicate- VHF1/HF1/ATC1. Bigin descend, declare emergency and order copilot "Engine relight in flight paper checklist". No time for ECAM. If time permits clear all ECAM massages because ENGINE DUAL FAILURE is suppressed by EMER ELEC CONFIG.
Farrell
11th May 2009, 08:58
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
"2 eng out, no time for mealing."
No time for massages either!
lomapaseo
11th May 2009, 12:39
Flight Detent
BUT...don't be too quick with the cycling, all turbojets windup very slowly at higher altitudes, so if it's accelerating and the EGT is not in danger of overtemping, keep it going!
Ah yes indeed. I've seen cases where panicked pilots did give up on restarting engines by cycling off the FC when the symptoms were only sluggish RPM rise at altitude during a restart.
The key at altitude is to monitor EGT before cycling off a fuel control.
Disclaimer
I hope that all the pilots reading this stuff on a board like this operate to their SOPs. These other words of wisdom are truly second order stuff when you're in deep.
guiones
12th May 2009, 01:29
A320:
From Memory:(Don't flame me:
Adjust attitude for 300 KTS for windmill start, IGN, cycle ENG MASTER S/W ON 30 SECS THEN OFF 30 SECS until start.
IF NO WINDMILLING START:
Two VERY important altitudes to remember, FL250 APU START(BATTERY) and FL200 APU BLEED ON for assisted START. Make sure ENG MASTER S/W have been OFF for 30 SECS and start ONE ENG AT THE TIME.
When you do the assited start you can reduce your speed to GREEN DOT for better glide.
It is all on the Airbus QRH.
G
Flight Detent
12th May 2009, 02:16
hey guiones...
Sorry, don't agree...
The OFF then ON cycling of the Start lever(s) needs to be fairly quick...
No more than approx. 1 second in the CUTOFF position.
Cheers...FD
guiones
12th May 2009, 03:14
F D:
You made me pull out the FCOM.
FCOM 3.2.70 ENG DUAL FAILURE
"ENG MASTERS.................................OFF 30S/ON
Engine masters must be left OFF for 30 seconds to allow ventilation of combustion chamber."
It also says that before bleed assisted start to do the 30 seconds OFF.
BTW same applies to the A330.
G
lomapaseo
12th May 2009, 11:37
Perhaps there are two different issues being discussed here. :confused:
One is a condition where the engine has either flamed out or been shutdown at altitude and is being restarted by SOP.
The other (which I spoke about) is where the engine EGT goes up into the red while the N2 fails to acclerate at all.
The later case is indicative of a engine hung in a stall condition.
At any rate remember if you allow the N2/N3 to get too low for any reason then an air start is not possible without assistance. In an all engine out the roll off of N2/N3 below starting conditions is most often associated with the pilots desire to configure for maximum glide Lots of things on your mind when you are a glider.