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Sam Rutherford
3rd May 2009, 18:50
In the past I have been using the 'everyone pays their share and we're legal' game (a full four seat aeroplane, everyone (including me) pays 1/4 of the rental/fuel etc.).

I thought it was JAR - however I have been told that this is not the case in Belgium - private pilots must pay the full and complete costs, the passengers ride free.

I would like to know if this is correct? Also, the situation in France, Germany, Italy etc.?

Thanks for your replies, Sam.

BackPacker
3rd May 2009, 19:35
Sam, I would assume that this is a limit on your license. Or more specifically, the country that issues you your license. Not all JAA states are equal in this respect.

So which country issued you your license?

IO540
3rd May 2009, 21:23
Cost sharing is according to the local CAA rules, optionally over-ridden by the local airspace rules.

The UK CAA allows cost sharing in a G-reg, by way of an exemption to a general ban on any payment to a PPL pilot. This exemption is valid worldwide, so (assuming say France does not object) you can cost share your G-reg all the way across France.

The FAA allows cost sharing too, but the UK CAA prohibits all payments to the pilot of a foreign reg plane (ref ANO article 140) without DfT permission - which you won't get anyway. This makes the FAA cost sharing scheme illegal in the UK so if I (being N-reg) take a passenger up I make it clear they cannot contribute anything.

In practice, of course, you will never get caught doing illegal cost sharing. Until there is an accident, when the passenger(s) are quite likely to spill the beans if they can get a bigger payout in return ;)

Ultranomad
3rd May 2009, 21:35
It's definitely different across the JAA-land. Just a few weeks ago, at a lecture in aviation law, I was quite surprised to hear that in Czech Republic a private pilot is allowed to collect *all* flight costs from the passengers (but no more than that).

ExSp33db1rd
4th May 2009, 03:26
You sell your passengers coffee of course, that can be expensive.

Whirlygig
4th May 2009, 07:38
In the UK, the cost-sharing rules are enshrined in the Air Navigation Order; legislation laid down by Parliament (not the CAA).

Cheers

Whirls

Whopity
4th May 2009, 08:53
The UK CAA allows cost sharing in a G-reg, by way of an exemption to a general ban on any payment to a PPL pilot. Actually it has nothing to do with PPLs and remuneration! The rule applies equally to CPL and ATPL holders.

Article 157(3) Subject to the provisions of this article and articles 158 to 163, an aircraft in flight shall for the purposes of this Order be deemed to fly for the purposes of public transport:
(a) if valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers or cargo in the aircraft on that flight;

Thus any flight where passengers pay to be carried is regarded as Public Transport, for which an AOC is required. The Exemption in Article 160 allows cost sharing on private flights, and by including the pilot as one share, it eliminates the possibility of illegal public transport flights where a pilot might be tempted to run a taxi service without the safeguards built into an AOC operation.

Whilst this is a UK rule, the carriage of fare paying passengers in Europe (Commercial Air Transportation) will come under the provisions of JAR-OPS.

A UK Registered aircraft is subject to the UK ANO it matters not which country you are operating in. The aircraft remains a little bit of the UK which enjoys overflight rights. National airspace rules will apply and may restrict or require carriage of certain items.

Sam Rutherford
4th May 2009, 11:56
Okay, so we know how it works for a G reg, in the UK.

Does anyone know about the rules for the other options:

G reg in France, Belgium, Italy etc.
Own reg in these (and other countries) (ie F in France etc.)

Of course there is always the 'expensive coffee' option - but I would prefer to know what the actual rules are!

Cheers, Sam.

what next
4th May 2009, 12:36
Hello!

Own reg in these (and other countries) (ie F in France etc.)

German reg. in Germany: Cost sharing is (still) legal. As long as the aeroplane has 4 seats or less, no permission is required. The costs can be shared among the passenger(s) completely, the pilot does not have to pay his share. But he is not allowed any kind of remuneration, wether he has a PPL or CPL does not matter. Above four seats, permission from the local aviation authority is required (not from the LBA! ("our" CAA)). Usually, this will not be granted.

However, a permission for "non commercial transport against payment" (Nichtgewerblicher Transport gegen Entgelt) may be issued instead. With this kind of permission (issued by the local authority) a certain number of flights with full coverage of expenses - even remuneration for the crew! - is permitted. There are strict rules to be obeyed, the most important of which is that these flights must not be advertised or publicly sold in any way. Usually, this kind of flying takes place when a company aircraft is chartered out to another company together with crew and everything. I have done quite a lot of this kind of flying in the past!

All this has nothing to do with JAR-OPS / EU-OPS which only regulate purely commercial flying. This may change in the near future, as rumour has it...

Greetings, Max

IO540
4th May 2009, 19:55
Thus any flight where passengers pay to be carried is regarded as Public Transport, for which an AOC is required

You are of course right, Whopity. A CPL is all but worthless without an AOC, in a scenario where passengers are parting with money.