Basic Service - What's the point?

[Nipper2]

I have been holding off posting this for a few weeks to see how things settle down.....

I fly a non-transponder aircraft mostly around the south coast and in the area covered by Farnborough West. My flying is what I call advanced bimbling - I'm usually going somewhere but in a very unhurried way.

On the few recent occasions when I have asked for a Basic Service, I really have been left wondering 'what's the point'. I have a basic exchange of information with the controller (type, departure, destination, route height etc.) and I carry on bimbling. The most I ever get is a 'report at the M4' or similar, which is usually just a cue to hand over to someone eles. When I get near my destination, I advise of a frequency change and that's it. I never hear anything else from them (nor they from me).

On the few occasions I have asked for a Traffic Service, all but one was refused due either to 'controler workload' or 'traffic density'. The one I did get was on a very hazy day, flying back towards a low sun with absolutely no hope of spotting oncoming traffic visually. I was asked to make turns for positive identification and the service was excellent. This leads me to think that with no transponder (another topic for another thread - let's see if we can avoid thread-drift) I am generally defined as 'not positively identified' and therefor unlikely to receive much in the way of useful information.

I have pretty much come to the view that the Basic Service is a waste of my time, and perhaps more significantly, the controler's time. If all the people getting the marginally useful Basic Service just kept quiet, would there be enough spare capacity to provide those wo needed it with Traffic Services or better?

Your thoughts gentlemen please...

[PompeyPaul]

They identify you, then if you stray into heathrow, gatwick or some danger area then you'll be warned. Whilst you haven't done that yet, the service didn't help. However, that day you get the bearing ever so slightly wrong, or the wind is different, or your busy looking at something or other is the day that it will help.

Also, if you have an egine failure and perform an emergency landing they will vector helicopters and emergency services to you.

Finally if you have conflicting traffic, and a real chance of collision, then you will be informed of it but obviously look out is still your problem.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Basic Service
Provides advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct
of flights. e.g. weather information, changes of serviceability of facilities,
conditions at aerodromes, general airspace activity information, and any
other information likely to affect safety.
Provision: ATC and FISO
Flight Rules & Met: VFR and IFR, VMC and IMC
Identification: Possibly, but does not imply radar service
Traffic & Deconfliction: Not specific
Terrain Clearance: Pilot responsible
Headings & Levels: Not required to notify, No specific control
Note: Allocation of a squawk does not imply a radar service

My best piece of advice is to buy a transponder; they're not an arm and a leg nowadays. If you spent a while sitting with a Farnborough radar controller, or similar, on a busy Sunday or Bank Holiday you'd rush out and buy one next day!

[IO540]

If you spent a while sitting with a Farnborough radar controller, or similar, on a busy Sunday or Bank Holiday you'd rush out and buy one next day!

If you spent a while flying under Farnborough radar, or similar, on a busy Sunday or Bank Holiday you'd rush out and buy one next day too! Traffic reports of "level unknown" traffic are such a waste of time.

[Mike Cross]

Basic service is very much what the old FIS did. Part of the problem appears to be that in the past people asking for a FIS got a bit more, for example if they were talking to a radar unit they might get some traffic information. This inevitably led to inconsistincy in the service being provided which in turn might have led someone used to flying in a particular area where traffic was routinely passed to expect the same thing elsewhere.

The new regime attempts to standardise things so what you get is uniform, regardless of where you are.

Like the old FIS users of Basic Service can use it to get the RPS, ask whether Danger Areas are hot or cold, check frequencies, get clearances etc etc.

Like you I fly a non-transponder equipped aircraft and therefore tend to listen to London Inf and only talk to them if I need to.

[IO540]

The new regime attempts to standardise things so what you get is uniform, regardless of where you are.

ICAO requires a Flight Information Service; fair enough. But some UK units were not the only ones to provide something extra. If you fly in France or Spain, they have you on radar the whole time (and, unlike the UK, they are not afraid to let you know) and they will pass conflicting traffic (which in say France is pretty unlikely, due to the low traffic density at any "touring" altitude).

I cannot recall a time when I was under an FIS in the UK and got traffic info, but I gather it has happened.

IMHO, the whole thing is an ae*e covering exercise. Some anally retentive person somewhere decided there was a possible duty of care and since nobody wants to spend money on services to GA, the only practical way to solve this is to wash their hands of it formally. Why the UK doesn't adopt the unified system they have in e.g. France I don't know.

[Climb Climb]

Is it worth getting a Basic Service? From a Farnborough perspective – yes it is. Under a basic service we will provide you with information if requested, usually identify traffic and issue a discreet squawk. Monitor on radar to help you avoid controlled airspace, give traffic information if a definite collision risk exists and finally provide assistance if anything goes wrong, either directly or liaising with D&D.

So how’s it going? In March we provided a service to 8,300 aircraft of which over 20% received radar services (although this is less than requested). In addition we handled a number of precautionary returns, several uncertain of position and one helicopter which ended up in a field. All of whom are glad they were receiving a service from Farnborough. Finally we prevented over 30 controlled airspace infringements and helped a number of others navigate out who had already infringed.

So yes if in doubt please call for a basic service.

[Talkdownman]

Did a 260nm flight today. Spoke to a/d of departure (ATC) ('cos I had to), and attempted unsuccessfully to get two-way with A/G at dest. VFR cruise at FL55, low level route with a listening squawk, VFR cruise at FL35. None of this @rse-covering, 'Duty of Care' 'ATSOCA'. Just looked out the window and got some pressures from passing ATII. So peaceful. Wonderful.
Basic service? Fine when, and IF, you actually NEED it.
'ATSOCA' requires discerning, measured selection, I think, rather than the action of an automaton.

[Fuji Abound]

Fine when, and IF, you actually NEED it.



Hmmm, perhaps a little selfish, it is not just for when you need it, but the help it can be to others knowing where you will be and at what level.

[IO540]

Climb Climb are you saying that if you get a BS then the ATCO could pass you traffic info? My understanding is that under a BS, traffic info is specifically prohibited even if the ATCO can see you are in a head-on. You need a Traffic Service to get that info.

Farnborough are unfailingly excellent but the old FIS from them was worth no more (to the pilot) than a listening watch on any other radar unit. When I call them I always ask for an RIS/TS.

[C-dog]

IO540 -
I cannot recall a time when I was under an FIS in the UK and got traffic info, but I gather it has happened.
Scottish Info have passed traffic information to me on numerous occassions. Perhaps because they are not so busy up here:)

However even if I'm just bimbling around I prefer to be on someone's frequency - one less thing to think about if the engine goes all quiet on you.

A couple of times this week I've heard foreign commercial traffic coming in to the oil capital:

ATC - Scandinavian xxx what type of service do you require?
SAS - What have you got?
ATC - Deconfliction service, similar to radar advisory
SAS - That'll do fine

Same with a KLM a couple of days later.

And there was me thinking the new system was another piece of European nonsense we have been forced to adopt. Nope, it's all of our own making.

In practice we are getting the same or similar service as we had previously, it just needed a couple of flights to get comfortable with the new phraseology on initial contact.

[flybymike]

I have always assumed that Scottish information did not have access to Radar. If this is the case presumably any traffic information is derived solely from traffic reports.

Surprised to hear IO540 say he has never been offered radar traffic info on FIS . I found this to be far more common than not.

Under the new system I find that controllers providing BS simply advise that you have "temporary traffic service", pass you the traffic info, and then go back to BS again :rolleyes:

[robin]

Is it worth getting a Basic Service? From a Farnborough perspective – yes it is. Under a basic service we will provide you with information if requested, usually identify traffic and issue a discreet squawk. Monitor on radar to help you avoid controlled airspace, give traffic information if a definite collision risk exists and finally provide assistance if anything goes wrong, either directly or liaising with D&D.


Forgive me, but isn't that precisely what a Basic Service is not?

When I was passing Farnborough over the past 3 weekends I was pretty much ignored throughout the flight, was not given a discrete squawk and was never given traffic information.

The reason - controller workload.

I think what you are describing is Traffic Service and that is by no means available.

[Foxy Loxy]

OK, I'm going to lob in a couple of pence worth here.

C-dog wrote
However even if I'm just bimbling around I prefer to be on someone's frequency - one less thing to think about if the engine goes all quiet on you.
An Alerting Service is provided as part of all ATSOCAS as a matter of course. If you are already talking to us on a BS, we have all the information we would need (i.e. a/c type, POB, position and/or level) and therefore don't have to glean this information from you in an emergency situation. It also therefore assists you, the pilot, in such an event in that it will give you more time to aviate and navigate.

IO540 wrote
Climb Climb are you saying that if you get a BS then the ATCO could pass you traffic info? My understanding is that under a BS, traffic info is specifically prohibited even if the ATCO can see you are in a head-on. You need a Traffic Service to get that info.

Yes, of course we can pass you traffic info! It is definitely not prohibited, and you don't "need" TS to get it. It can be effectively achieved by pilot reports of position and level alone (don't forget the non-radar environments ;) ). These do, of course, need to be accurate in order that all pilots receive the best info we can provide.

Fuji wrote
Hmmm, perhaps a little selfish, it is not just for when you need it, but the help it can be to others knowing where you will be and at what level.
Excellent point, well put.

Finally, if you are asked to squawk, it does not necessarily mean you will be monitored by that unit's radar (if they even have it). Many non-radar (and some radar units too, if they are operating procedurally) have assigned to them a discrete squawk. This simply allows any neighbouring unit to instantly know which agency that a/c is talking to. This may be necessary for co-ordination purposes.

[Genghis the Engineer]

One interesting point in the original post, largely overlooked so far.

Unable to get a traffic service due to traffic density.


Okay, I accept, this makes life difficult for the controller. But, why pray tell, would we ask for a traffic service? Surely where we're concerned about not seeing traffic ourselves - which either means marginal visibility, or high traffic density (or both). Most pilots are unlikely to ask for it in other circumstances, since the extra pilot workload is otherwise unwanted.

So, it's being declined in one of the two circumstances where it's most likely to be useful. Yes, absolutely, it's difficult for ATC to do this but the refusal is arguably providing a significant safety degredation.

G

[Rod1]

Having taken part in the debate on flyer it is interesting to see that there is a huge difference from unit to unit which as Mike says is exactly what the system was supposed to stop. My local airport used to provide excellent traffic info on a FIS, as did most of the other units, in my experience. Now you get no traffic at all and almost all the time you do not get identified (I have mode c which is always on). Imagine the following scenarios;

You are flying along in your basic LAA/BMAA aircraft, at 1500ft, flying under CAS, with a hand held radio, no transponder and an inexperienced passenger. It is a glorious Saturday and traffic levels are very high.

Scenario one.

Our intrepid aviator calls up and asks for a “basic service”. This takes several attempts on the very busy frequency. Passenger and pilot then listen to 30 min of endless radio babble and the passenger has no idea what is going on. Bang, the engine stops, oil everyware. Pilot immediately goes through his emergency checks; he now had about 30 sec before he is too low to communicate. On the radio, Err, Golf, Err, Alfa, Alfa, Echo, err Piper Cherokee, err, (etc etc). OK, no chance of getting a mayday out, look over the side. Lots of small fields with dry stone walls. The aircraft was not identified, no emergency was ever declared, the bodies were found the next day.

Senario two.

Our intrepid aviator is keeping a listening watch on 121.5. Pilot and passenger discuss the flight in detail, passenger helps with traffic spotting, life is good. Bang the engine stops, oil everyware. Emergency checks done the pilot issues a Mayday. The emergency triangulation system identifies his position within 3 seconds of the transmission starting, the specialist controler organises the emergency services and help arrives in time.

Which would you choose?

Rod1

[S-Works]

I have pretty much given up on it for VFR. I can get the QNH and navigate enough to keep clear of busting airspace. There is not a great deal of point in having a LARS that does not actually provide LARS.....

I am with Rod1, I will keep 121.5 handy and if the worse happens call a mayday on a frequency that stands a chance of being heard and acted on.

[Foxy Loxy]

Rod1, you have clearly already made up your mind on this one!

Your two scenarios don't really bear comparison to me. In scenario one, provided you are already in receipt of a BS, the controller/FISO already knows your details. This will include a/c type and last reported position and level. Even if you haven't made a specific position report for a few minutes, the controller is quite capable of working out where you are to within a few miles. Additionally, we'll also (assuming we've had a call from them) know of other a/c in the area who can go and have a look for you, and who has the time to provide us with a more specific location. I have yet to speak to a pilot who won't help out a fellow aviator in this situation.

In scenario two, you may have to provide all your details to D&D in that one Mayday call. Especially as, at 1500ft, it is unlikely you will manage a full triangulation from D&D.

I know what I'd choose! :}

[Fuji Abound]

What a load of twaddle.

For example, around London a significant investment has been made in providing a single composite service which was desperately needed. Farnborough will more often than not assign a squawk when they are providing a basic service, and are excellent at providing a traffic service even when it is busy - for example going up North on Sunday I had an excellent traffic service from them both ways and, not surprisingly, it was reasonably busy.

On less busy days a basic service is often equally as valuable. I have commented before the numerous occasions when other pilots have reported they are at so and so are are routing form x to y. With the inclusion of their level it is simple to deconflict with that traffic. I understand the chances of a collision are remote, but why on earth not deconflict if you have nothing better to do.

With regards a Mayday call your example is not creditable. If you are really low level, forget the call, land the aircraft that is your only priority unless you really are 100% up to speed. If you are at any half sensible height once you have sorted out the aircraft bang out your Mayday call over the top of everyone else if necessary, not only will you find you will be heard, but everyone else will shut up. Moreover the controller will more than likely know where you are, or roughly where you are, and will have your details. We have had this discussion before Rod but unless you are struggling so much to fly the aircraft (see my comments below and /or invest in an autopilot) I cant believe you havent got the time to make the odd call - I am sure you will find it will brighten up your day. :)

Unless you are miles from any where, or think you are about to get lost at any moment, I have no idea what you think you will gain from keeping 121.5 handy. It might be ok if you have two boxes and are working the frequencies on box 1 with the FF, otherwise I think most pilots are far better off working one frequency and having the next ready on the FF. Obvioulsy if you are in the wilds of Scotland it may be a different matter.

Do the rest of us a favour - if you are en route any where in England make use of the services available and even if you perceive them having no benefit to you at least have a care for the controllers and the rest of us who will be grateful - unless of course you are so busy you havent got time to make the odd radio call it which case your time might be better spent with some refresher training form Bose or some mentoring :).

From an entirely selfish point of view while you are about it if you wouldnt mind switching on your mode A or C or S, particularly if you really cant be bothered to talk to anyone and are happier listening to the chat on 121.5, it really isnt helpful to the rest of us for you to bimble around with it tunred off in case you run into some bit of CAS; if you havent got a transponder forget about all the mode S hype. The one favour it has done us is you can pick up a mode C for not a lot. At least my TAS will very nicely paint you up and in case you dont see me you can bet I will see you. :}

[west lakes]

A few observations from the sidelines

A few of the questions have been answerd by an ATCO at an airfield that is outside CAS and seemingly not taken on board!

D&D
A read of this post in R&N may be useful, particularly the article that is linked to
http://www.pprune.org/4884950-post48.html

Possibly the relevent part being


You’d need to be at 2,000 feet
within 40 nm of Heathrow for good reception,
and 3,000 feet beyond that. And 121.5 is not
just there to resolve problems but to prevent
them. “Call us up if you think you’re getting
close to controlled airspace,” Sgt Ferguson
stressed. “Don’t wait for situations to develop.


Though in reality I understand that some airfields do monitor 121.5 as well.

As for the afternoon bimble not talking to anyone, fine if you feel that is the safest way of flying, apart from the guy who recently flew through a departure path, caused 4 to take avoiding action & 1 to be held on the ground. (no I'm not saying where or what action is proposed)

Is that good safe flying and airmanship?

[flybymike]

No action could, or should, be taken, if the "departure path" is outside controlled airspace.

[Foxy Loxy]

flybymike, after the event you are correct, unless an airprox results (unlikely if all the a/c talking to ATC in west lakes's scenario are taking a DS.)

What the bimbler would have managed to achieve is an increased workload for the ATCO, and a/c taking some potentially fairly violent (for want of a better word) manoeuvres to avoid a collision. I've seen similar happen at my unit. All this could have been avoided by the bimbler making two-way contact and agreeing a course of action.

As an aside, I may as well take this opportunity to point out to anyone flying in the SW that Newquay does have instrument approaches to runways 12 and 30 that are not marked on the chart.

[west lakes]

What the bimbler would have managed to achieve is an increased workload for the ATCO


and possibly reducing the type of service available to other aircraft as well!

[englishal]

'traffic density'
I've noticed that crop up a few times now -Traffic Service is downgraded due to traffic density (when you'd expect to need it more than ever!). This never happened under RIS......Is this a new HSE thing?

Basic is ok when crossing a big expanse of water, or when pasing close to a zone or when you need to know stuff about Danger areas and the like. I have had traffic info passed on a Basic, though most of the time not.

[Foxy Loxy]

OK, not a radar controller (yet ;) )......

englishal, I have heard my colleagues (in the past) use the phraseology "Limited RIS due to traffic density."

[west lakes]

No action could, or should, be taken, if the "departure path" is outside controlled airspace


Quite so, but think outside the narrow what is legal box for a bit: -

If it becomes a problem the location in question could use that as evidence to push for a change in the type of airspace surrounding it - I'm sure lots of PPLs would appreciate that!

Evidence of constant poor airmanship could be used by the authorities to change rules - say making mode S mandatory or tightening down on a number of legal requirements.

I would suggest a number of rule changes don't "just happen" but they happen because of constant lack of care within the rules in situations that are "totally legal"

[Fuji Abound]

I've noticed that crop up a few times now -Traffic Service is downgraded due to traffic density (when you'd expect to need it more than ever!). This never happened under RIS......Is this a new HSE thing?

It did.


What the bimbler would have managed to achieve is an increased workload for the ATCO



Exactly, but there are those that dont care. You can legally cross directly under Gatwick's class D and under the approach at 1,490 without transponding or talking to anyone - and there are those that do. I can only imagine the Controller waiting with baited breath to see what the traffic will do next - but why bother with a quick call that would reassure him you know exactly what you are doing and where you are - ah yes, airmanship, I forgot!

I can think of so many occasions when the bimbler has been saved from infringing because he took the precaution of receiving a service. You hear cases all the time. In fact only on Sunday Gatwick were kind enough to point out to me that if I continued on my present course I would infringe LCY - there was no chance of that as it happened because I was aware of exactly where I was working my way between Biggin's ATZ and LCY for a Gatwick crossing but never the less I appreciated the warning. If I had been relying on nothing more than a map perhaps I would have been even more grateful of a bust avoided.

I cant help thinking of the recent post of the instructor and student infringing Heathrow. Had they been in receipt of a service and had they been transponding one would only imagine yet another incident avoided and perhaps not the end of a commercial pilots potential career.

[Captain Smithy]

Haven't had any problems with a Basic Service myself so I'm a bit surprised at some of the comments here. Around my local haunt ATC lets me know that there is traffic in my X o'clock at Y miles and Z altitude, I look, see and avoid, whether squawking or not, job done and no hassle, just like in ye olde days of FIS.

Fair enough if you don't think you need to talk to anyone, but there's no harm done in letting others know where you are and knowing where others are.

Smithy

[12Watt Tim]

I can't think of when I had a basic service or FIS and didn't get traffic information, apart from on London Info. Even there I have had specific information on traffic that was estimating a VOR at the same time I was at the same altitude, and knew where to look so I saw it. There is nothing in the BS that says they can't give traffic information, although as I read it if they are intending to give regular radar-derived traffic updates (as opposed to Foxy's reported traffic or just information about a single aircraft which is an obvious risk) the controller will agree a traffic service with you.

As for the rest, there is plenty of information available and someone is watching you and will probably notice if you disappear, and know approximately where!

[Warped Factor]

FA wrote:

I cant help thinking of the recent post of the instructor and student infringing Heathrow. Had they been in receipt of a service and had they been transponding one would only imagine yet another incident avoided and perhaps not the end of a commercial pilots potential career.

Don't know where it was suggested otherwise, but they were transponding A and C.

[12Watt Tim]

Were they receiving a service?

[Fuji Abound]

12Watt Tim

Exactly.

In any event whatever the specific circumstances that was not the point.

If you were receiving a service of whatever colour and a squawk I'd guess even though it is not the controller's responsibility 9 times out of 10 they would deal with you well before you had Heathrow's tower in view - or any other tower of importance.

The end result is a much better outcome for all concerned - less form filing for them, less disruption for CAT, and no tea for you (in less than happy circumstances).

In fact if you infringe and are not availing yourself of a service when one was available I'd not have much symphathy for you, so you had better make sure your nav. is red hot. :)

[JW411]

I used Farnborough twice on Friday and was given a basic service (due to my altitude) both ways. I had two different controllers (unless she had a sex-change over the lunch break) and both gave an excellent service including traffic information. Thank you.

[Talkdownman]

<<I used Farnborough ......and was given a basic service .......including traffic information>>

Says it all, really..........

:ugh:

[Rod1]

I have not spoken to Farnborough yet as I am in the frozen north, but it is obvious that if the idea of the changes is to standardise the service, it has failed!

Rod1

[Crash one]

I have said before that I think the changes were to standardise the correct perception of the services. Old FIS was never supposed to be a FRIS but was percieved as such by some who got it as a courtesy and came to expect it as a right.
And in the frozen norf Scottish info still do the best, I have heard them reporting me to other traffic as "last reported at XX" I will then "G-XX overhead YY at XXX on Portree XXX" Just to keep them up dated.
Personally I think crawling around under CAS & not talking is bloody stupid, just as stupid as crawling over the mountains well outside CAS & not talking.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Heard a major UK 737/A319 operator flying into a Scottish Airport from outside CAS being asked what service they required.

The pilot asked for FIS.
After the ATCO quickly briefed him on the new ATSOCAS, the pilot elected to go for Basic.
The ATCO queried him, confirming he will not be getting any form of control and radar derived information until inside CAS.
Pilot acknowledged :)

[fisbangwollop]

Firstly my job is to provide a BS to any aircraft needing it over Scotland...119.87mhz......yes its a non radar service but if I am advised of traffic by aircraft A and reckon aircraft B will get close I will advise both aircraft!!....therefore the more aircraft I know about by someone calling me the better service I can provide...

Secondly regarding the earlier post re listening 121.5 or Scottish/London Info.........2 weeks back I was called by PA28 routing EGPG-MULL, whilst 10nm north of EGPG PA28 calls rough running engine and intending to force land....within 10 seconds I have asked the aircraft to squak 7700 and at the same time make phone contact with Distress and Diversion cell......during me updating D and D the PA28 advises me he is going to try to get back to EGPG.........I phone EGPG and advise of situation were Air Ground guy there clear the runway of all traffic and advises circuit traffic of situation. I then ask a Katana aircraft who is also in frequency in similar area to get visual with PA28 and follow him back to EGPG......this he does.....in the end the aircraft lands safely less than 10 minutes from the initial call........the reason for rough engine was cracked block/oil loss with probably only a further few minutes flying time before seizure!! Within 3 minutes of my initial phone call to D and D the duty SAR sea King was tasked from Prestwick to head for the last reported osito of PA28...glady not required......this all happened because the aircraft had had the sense to rquest a BS from Scottish info..............if instead he had elected to listen out on 121.5 that initial call may never have been heard due to poor VHF coverage below 3000ft on 121.5 over Scotland..........so my advise is please please please use the service's that are free for all to use....the more that do the better the service will be for one and all.:ok: