AA crash near JFK

[ANOpax]

News wire reports that an AA 767 has crashed in NY at 9:15 local time. Location given as the Rockaway section of Queens. Apparently an inbound flight (AA 587), all NY metro airports closed.

[ 12 November 2001: Message edited by: ANOpax ]

[ETOPS]

CNN Website showing picture of huge pall of black smoke over Queens. This looks pretty bad........

[Tan]

Aircraft type A300

[Eff Oh]

Sky news talking of the aircraft suffered 1, possible double engine failure shortly after take off. Now saying it was an Airbus A-300. En route Santo Domingo.
Eff Oh

[CityFlyer]

On Bloomberg newswires, CNN say it was an Airbus A300, MSNBC report it as flight AA587. :(

[DESERTLAD]

BBC reports AA677 was departing JFK .THey say it cud be an A300 nd not a B767 .

[Mentaleena]

May well NOT be a terrorist attack - FAA.

[troubleatthemill]

american airlines flight 587 departing 8:38 from jfk heading for santo domingo. airbus a300...

[tony draper]

A American aviation related website reports that a engine was seen to detach from the wing shortly after takeoff,???.

[Flap 5]

It's reported that the right wing was on fire and that there are at least two crash sites. This would indicate a bomb - possibly placed behind the refueling panel on the right wing.

An old expression about straws and camels backs comes to mind.

[brockenspectre]

CNN is now reporting that one engine fell separately from the aircraft prior to the crash ... a friend of mine in USA was just told by someone else that an eye witness reported seeing "metal" come off the aircraft, then there was a fire or explosion from the right side of the aircraft ... :(

[tyche]

From The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,592236,00.html
Passenger jet crashes in New York

Staff and agencies
Monday November 12, 2001

An American Airlines flight carrying 246 passengers crashed in a residential neighbourhood of New York today at 9.15am local time (14.15 GMT).
The Airbus A300 crashed near Rockaway beach, Queens, one of New York's five boroughs. The plane - American Airlines flight 587 - had taken off from JFK airport en route to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic.

New York's three major airports - Newark, JFK and LaGuardia - were all closed down and their approaching flights were diverted to other airports.

The US federal aviation administration (FAA) said it had no information on the cause of the crash.

The mayor of New York, Rudolf Giuliani, broke off from a meeting and headed to the crash site.

[ramsrc]

Tragic news, 246 passengers and nine crew.
(Spot the journalistic mistake)

From CNN:

CNN confirmed the plane was American Airlines Flight 587 from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. The plane was a Boeing Airbus A300. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said the plane was carrying 246 passengers and nine crew members.

[Bluebaron]

Well another sad day for aviation.

It is now becoming clear that this was probably just(?) an accident, which although extremly terrible is a relief to many.

May god have mercy on their souls.

:( :( :(

[INLAK]

Latest from SKY, the FBI says there was an explosion on board before the crash.

[DESERTLAD]

BBC showed pix of an engine in front of a gas station .... :confused:

[Code Blue]

AA587 A-300: NBC reports a large piece of metal with a separate impact which has destroyed a 2 storey house ? engine.

A/c crashed ~5 mins after take off with no apparent calls.

FAA have declared a Ground stop for all airfields within 25 miles of New York, incl Teeterboro.

RIP

:( :(

CB

[Raw Data]

Flap 5

The very last thing we need just now is the sort of ill-informed, highly speculative conclusion that you arrived at above. It is FAR more likely that it was not a bomb.

You don't know what happened... nobody does yet. Save the moronic speculation for the tabloids.

Probably a waste of time, but can we PLEASE not emulate Flaps 5 and jump to conclusions- let's try being a little more sensible.

[Golden Monkey]

American airlines have a phone number for concerned friends and relatives -

1-800-245-0999

Already some ludicrous speculation in the media. A sad day indeed.

[DustyFields]

I am ceratinly not a pessimist and I really do hope that my thoughts are proved completely wrong but in these dark times three things come straight to my mind:
1. How far away is the U.N. as it is hosting a number of world leaders.
2. Lighting does not strike so often in one place.
3. Aircraft do not just fall from the sky.

[Covenant]

How can it possibly be "clear" what caused this crash just two hours after it happened?

[INLAK]

http://realserver.brooklyn.cuny.edu:8080/ramgen/encoder/jfk.rm

Link to live JFk approach frequency. Quality is poor due to net congestion.

[Code Blue]

The UN building is about 15-20 miles away from the main impact site.

AA587 was apparently delayed about 30 min taking off - perhaps another piece of the puzzle.

The debris field seems scattered - There is a clip of an engine cowl in a gas station.

Media are going wild with every sort of speculation. Every Tom, Dick & Harry seems to be an expert!

CB

[Mooney]

Sorry to see the BBC's poor conduct of reporting this incident.

Quite vile speculation..

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[JetAgeHobo]

Regards speculation on bombs, terrorist actions, etc. .. Heard about this sittinng in an expat bar in southern China, first reaction was "terroris sh*t again" by expats. Local Chinese lauging about it... Cooler heads must prevail.. Lost one on take off possibly, What is the history of the engines on A300..

CNN Asia speculating engine and corresponding hydraulic failure.

[Mentaleena]

One stupid "expert" has just said that losing an engine off a wing is quite common.
What an a**hole of a moron.
Why oh why don't we put all these experts on a flight and......

[PAXboy]

The worst speculation is by the kids in the stockmarket. Within an hour, the Dow had dropped 200 points.

Fabulous to have your company at the whim of such people. I have, by the way, worked in the City of London and for an American merchant bank (based in NYC) so I have seen this at first hand.

[weetabix]

There are some reports (according to BBC) that there was smoke coming from one of the engines on take off, reported by the following aircraft.
Just another bit of uncomfirmed information.

[RatherBeFlying]

CBC Radio just carried observations by Paul Marsina, a US Air Express pilot resident in crash area. He saw the a/c at full power in a turn then an explosion (could not say exactly where), then engine detached and a/c "nosedived".

[Ttree Ttrimmer]

Raw Data, I could not agree more but if I were to write it I would have worded it somewhat stronger.

Mooney, I am similarly saddened. I thought it was only the chicken noodle nerds that had such a scant regard for the truth!

[Remember to Flare]

My condolances to the families of the deceased. Another sad day for aviation.

[Davey Clark]

Sad Day for all concerned.

ITN had an "expert" on-air saying something like "well, with reports of a fire coming from the aircraft before it hit the ground, looks like mechanical failure, or possibly PILOT ERROR" - Whoaah, what a complete **********! I'll never belive an ITN "expert" again.

My thoughts are with you all.

[Flap 5]

Oh would you TT and I suppose you think that would be helpful?

Raw Data, the alternative would be an uncontained catostrophic engine failure. That now appears to be more likely.

This is a site for professional pilots to provide their thoughts. If you do not want to join in then do not criticise others who want to.

[Covenant]

JetAgeHobo said:
What is the history of the engines on A300

Are you asking how often has an engine fallen off an A300 wing? :confused:

I think it's quite common. Statistics show that precisely 1 in every 1,234,567 A300 takeoffs result in the departure of one or more engines.

In addition, otherwise reliable GE and RR engines are mysteriously affected as soon as they are bolted to an A300 airframe and show a marked increased in incidence of catastrophic failure. Experts think it is the notorious Airbus FBW system that causes structural weakening of the engine pylons.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Mooney]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/market_data/newsid_528000/528306.stm

Interesting graph to see BAs share price at the time of the accident.

[GlueBall]

CNN video of a GE CF6-80C2A5 engine on the lot of the Texaco Gas station shows a large hole in the side of the cowling, the result of an apparent uncontained turbine separation. N14053, a A300B4-605R, delivered July 1988, c/n 420.

[Sven Sixtoo]

AA spokesman in Dallas has just given the main hours run on airframe & engines

Aicraft was new in 1988

No 1 engine about 600 hrs run
No2 engine about 9700 hrs run.

AA gave the exact figures - I just didn't note them exactly.

[Eff Oh]

Whitehouse spokesman says that "NO government agency released a statement, saying that the aircraft had suffered a pre impact explosion!"
Also comparisons now being drawn to the Concorde accident. :(
American Airlines Press conference:-
Airbus A-300
N14053
Delivered brand new on July 12th 1988.
Last "A" check Nov 11th
Last "B" check Oct 3rd
Overhaul Dec 9th 1999
Next Sched overhaul July 2002.
It has 2 GE CF6-08C2A5 engines.
Number 1 had 694 hrs since major overhaul.
Number 2 had 9788hrs since major overhaul.
Next overhaul due at 10000hrs.

God bless them all!
Eff Oh :(

[lrjt24]

AMR just announced the A300-600 came out of an A-Check yesterday

[ALSAT]

Out of curiosity, (having flown with GE engines maybe I should know). How long are these engines on the wing until major overhaul?
I agree too many experts and too little knowledge.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Man from AA said 10k hrs

[INLAK]

Latest pictures of the actual crashed aircraft. Courtesy of www.airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net)
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N14053

[The Guvnor]

I'd say this sounds like a catastrophic uncontained engine failure rather than anything more sinister.

However, coming on top of the events of the 11th September, this could well do for American what Lockerbie did for Pan Am 1.

http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1049946.jpg

Commiserations to all our colleagues at American as well as the families of those killed.

[Flight Safety]

Just looking at the CNN video of the engine that fell into the gas station parking lot...

The front of the nacelle appears to be facing the camera, the exhaust tailcone appears to be facing away from the camera. Some of the leading edge of the nacelle is visible but much of it is missing, suggesting a lot of damage to the front of the fan case. I also cannot see ANY part of the fan, it appears to be completely missing.

It is possible that a fan disk ruptured on this engine?

(Edited for a spelling error)

[ 12 November 2001: Message edited by: Flight Safety ]

[I. M. Esperto]

Latest on TV was a witness who said the left WING fell off.

Wings don't fall off or course, they are blown off.

I think we should keep an open mind on the possibility that this was a bomb or a Stinger.

A decent sized pleasure craft in Jamaica Bay or just offshore could launch a Stinger, and then escape.

Stay tuned. :mad:

[gjc666]

CNN: "Witnesses said they saw an explosion on one side of the plane before the crash, but different accounts placed the explosion on different sides of the aircraft. Ethan Moses said he saw the aircraft burning from its left side, then the aircraft's left engine fell off.

"It tilted to the left slightly and it made a nosedive, straight down," Moses said."

Also from CNN website (re the BA share price dive) the crash ocurred at 9.17 EST. Given the speed with which bad news travels across financial networks and the necessity for fund managers to knee-jerk react to such new, the graph does not seem unreasonable.

The fact that the aircraft had just come out of maintenance could cut two ways. What better time to do something nasty? But I'm sure the FBI will be talking to one or two unfortunate maintenance engineers.

(End speculation)

:( :(

[EI - E I - O]

Thats a lot of hours on the CF-6-08, on the no 2 position, even by Americans Maintenance Schedule, I wouldnt like to be the engineer who signed the Release to Service yesterday!

What are the possibilities of T/R Deployment?

(Lauda comes to mind, no radio contact, and that spinner on that powerplant looks, very, very odd, whats it doing facing that way?

Whatever the reason, whatever the cause, God be with those people,the crew and their families.

[minogue]

Nobody can yet know the story here. Fair to early for anything other than wild speculation. A prediction of what will happen though.

1) US Government Agencies will quickly realise that popular belief that this was a terrorist incident will have very serious implications for US econony generally and possibly catastrophic implications for the US and to a lesser extent worldwide aviation industry. They will publically at least be pushing the accident theory to death regardless of the facts
2) Meanwhile the conspiracy theorists will have a field day over the next days and weeks with ever more outlandish theories of how this was a terrorist incident.
3) Unlike most aviation accidents there is not an overwhelming public interest in knowing what happened here unless it was in fact an accident. As such I fear we will never be definitively and reliably told what happened here.
4) We have a choice. We can either get involved in endless illinformed speculation or we can mourn for the victims but otherwise let this one lie. I will be following the latter option

[Capt PPRuNe]

OK, now that we have the basic news and the uneducated speculation is raising its ugly head I am putting this thread to bed before it gets too long and slows the already overloaded server any more.

I would like to remind all posterss that it would be in everyones interest if they would keep their speculations to themselves if they are not directly connected to our profession. Also, would the conspiracy theorists please find a more appropriate website. Due to capacity constraints on the PPRuNe server I would rather they went elsewhere.