What do you think of this kind of Pilot?

[Murray_NN]

One of my supervisors at work is a Microsoft Flight Sim pilot. He thinks he can fly any kind of airplane in real life if he has flown it in the sim!
Please tell me this is not true...I work at Heathrow and we deal pilots allot. Everytime he sees a pilot he starts talking "professionally" like how he flew to Hong Kong, the weather was terrible or they had to change plan. The pilots do get impressed at the begining, but when they find out that all of his experiences were gained in the Sim, they just walk-off or try to end the conversation. But this doesnt put him off at all. He says he has been flying the simulator for the last 8years. He also does 'real time' flying. 8 hrs, 10hrs even 12hrs at times sitting in front of a computer.

So what do you think of a person like this?
Have you had any experience of someone showing great interest in Sims?

[GPS Approach]

8-12hrs in front of a computer? This person definately needs to get out more!!!

------------------
Aargh, that was the taxiway we landed on!

[A Very Civil Pilot]

As an instructor, I have found that the flight-sim pilots are generally in the lower end of the skill range when it comes to real flying. They may know all the theory, but have appreciation for the "feel" of an aircraft.

(sitting in from of a computer for 8 hours, is nature's way of telling you that you need to get out more.)

[DeltaTango]

Sounds like a bad case of
WANNA-BE-A-PILOT-ITIS

POOR GUY - WHAT CAN I SAY?

I personally hate sims...

[The Guvnor]

As I said on another thread, I haven't met any real pilots - including myself - that can fly the aircraft on MSFS. In particular, when I try to take off in that Lear, it just banks over to the right and dives straight in....

Anyway, my view is that anyone who can fly MSFS shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any real aircraft. :) :)

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[BRUpax]

Ok guys, for what it's worth. I wanted to be a pilot but circumstances prevented me from pursuing that goal. Flying thousands of hours as pax I have never lost interest in aviation. A year ago I purchased FS. It has provided me with lots of fun but I appreciate that it's a piece of pi*s compared to the real thing. Nevertheless, it has helped me to comprehend a great deal more than before and I am much more "aware" of what's going on when I ride JS. I would of course love to try it out on a real sim although I am fearful that A VERY CIVIL PILOT may well be right and I would embarrass myself. Anyway, at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS. Incidentally I promise not to mention FS if I'm riding on your jumpseat :).

P.S. I don't sit for 8 hours on it!!

[Cyclic Hotline]

This guy should always keep his anorak on, in case the weather is bad at his destination! ;)

Maybe he passes the enroute inflight hours, by browsing the "left-handed" web sites? (Sounds appropriate) :)

[Dan Winterland]

This guy needs to be told two things.

1. He needs a life.

2. MFS is only a game. No one gets killed when you crash when playing.

Personally, when you've flown under the Golden Gate bridge twenty times in the 737, it looses it's appeal. I can't think of anything duller than flying route real time in a sim. MS Combat Sim is much more fun - things blow up - and that's only a game as well!

[jaundiced]

I know a very good psychiatrist and have a straight jacket you can borrow!

[BigJETS]

Do you guys use the keyboard or the joystick? ;)

I use the keys. I find that its easier. I dont think the program is much use other than it applies some glossary terms. Im not a pilot but I think I could fly a C182 without much problem.
I wonder how many of you would fly missions on MSFS if you somehow never became real pilots?
I can fly the heavies pretty good on the sim but Id fly a real one quite poorly. Youd have to evacuate the town. Not only that but trying to follow ATC direction would be difficult. Surely theyd tell me to fly right heading 020 and Id bank about 85 degrees, stall, and lose 7000 feet. If I ever got level again Id fly to the border to avoid imprisonment.
I think the biggest problem with the sim is that it feels like your about 12 inches tall sitting in that seat.
If anyone will set me up with a ride in the front sometime, I'll turn off the computer and I promise not to mention MSFS unless you ask.

------------------
http://bigjets.tripod.com/flightline

[AeroBoero]

Guv ;

I tought I was the only one who couldn't do the right things on that thing (MSFS) :) ;)

Dan ;

Yeah....blow things up! That at least is fun!!!

I say he get's a shrink asap! :)

------------------
Reporte través de XAREO

[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 24 July 2000).]

[OzExpat]

No, MSFS definitely ain't the real thing so, not surprisingly, it has never been a topic of discussion on my flight deck. But I'd have thought that anyone spending 8-12 hrs at it has a serious "people skills" problem, at the very least. He needs a life ... any other life would be better!
:) :)

------------------
Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's enough!

[JBravo]

I'm in my 737, 100 feet above the runway, comming in for a very nice landing.
Suddenly the plane is hanging still in midair. I'm very surprised. What is happening?!? 30 seconds later I bang onto the ground with an incredible high vertical speed when I start moving again, and I crash.

Luckily it was not real life, but only FS2000, where the computer starts loading scenery at the most inconvenient time ;)

[This message has been edited by JBravo (edited 24 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JBravo (edited 24 July 2000).]

[very_interested]

I think it is VERY realistic.. On FS2000 you take off from Heathrow, get the Autopilot set up, Have a nice cup of hot chocolate, get comfortable in your seat, set the alarm clock for say 7hrs later and have a nice relaxing sleep..

You wake up refreshed and make a slick landing at O'Hare. Just like the real thing!!!!

At weekends I fly Heathrow to Bangkok as I like to sleep in late...

:)

[lymanm]

C'mon guys, I think you're giving MSFS a bad rap. OK, before I start, I do have my PPL, and I will eventually get my ATPL (another 8-10years or so). But for the record, I did and still do enjoy MSFS. When I was 12, it was the closest thing I got to real flying. When finally did start with the real thing, it did wonders for my instrument scan (although it was actually detremental in terms of an outside lookout). Now that I have my license, I find it's great for instrument work and navigation technique. Furthermore, it's very nice to have full FMS/EICAS system when all you have in real life is a shnatty little ADF needle. And yes, I do fly real time flights, but I takeoff, setup on course, then do something that will occupy my time for 8 hours (sleep, school, work, whatever) then return to my PC and land again. I do think that sitting there watching the sim fly for you for 8 hours is not exactly an efficient use of one's time.

[Established !]

FREE AT LAST to admit I could never land the FS2000. Glad to know Im not alone!

[very_interested]

If I get into trouble I Ctl-Alt-Del or hit the power off button...

I have NEVER crashed Concorde.

:)

[BigJETS]

Some people do that virtual airline thing. fly routes everyday real time. Probably 4 days on 4 days off and no pay!

I hear that FS2000 is not a good format. Its got alot of scenery glitches like was mentioned. FS98 is supposedly the best.

I always wanted to know if real pilots crashed the FS--I suspected they did. I think the ILS on FS is too inaccurate to ever work. I'll be on rwy heading/position, get within 5 seconds and I've drifted in position of the taxiway. I always think of my last plane trip to BOS. Visibility was the poorest Ive seen (you know, the wings disappear, you kinda wonder if youre in a time warp). Glad the ILS worked. (its always interesting flying to a new city, especially when you cant see it until youre 200 ft off the ground)

------------------
Rotate, Please! http://bigjets.tripod.com/flightline

[very_interested]

ILS????????


I ain't found that button yet!!!

*whispering* To be honest I can do a takeoff in Concorde and I can never get supersonic.. In fact I have 165 on the speedometer (I don't think that is what it is really called) I got re-heat on and I keep getting an "overspeed" warning... OVERSPEED??? there is a speed limit?

I have NEVER managed to get to the coast yet. I keep running out of fuel, however I can't find the thingy that puts the wheels up either!!!!

:)

[Padders]

Hi Guys ,

If you want a LOT more "real" try PS1.3 from Aerowinx (www.aerowinx.com) This is a VERY complex sim of the 747-400 in systems , flight modellling and FMC . Many real world '400 pilots give testimonials to its accuracy on the website.
I am only a PPL , but after using this then visiting the 747-400 sim @cranebank , I felt right at home <g>
Obviously the "feel" is not there , but as far as I can see all other things are modelled very accurately.
I Use the "Big Boeing FMC Users Guide" from Bulfer, and it ALL translates in PS1.3

Any real 747-400 pilots tried it who would like to comment?

Cheers

Bill Padley
London

[Kiwiconehead]

I would say the only relevent use for Flight sims( FS98, FS2000 ) in relation to what you guys do in the pointy end would be as a type of famil/proceedural aid. e.g. this does that, see how those needles move in relation to each other.

As an avionics engineer I find that the main problem is that how crew use intsruments in flight does not necessarily relate to the way we test them on the ground. I play around with FS98 and that, along with jumpseat trips, has given a better understanding of how an aircraft is operated by crew as opposed to what I know of how it works. If I understand what the crew are talking about with a defect I can trouble shoot it much better.

I don't think it would help in piloting an aircraft. I can fly the 767 on the computer but I can't fly for sh*t in a real aircraft.

[very_interested]

I am as colour blind as a bat...

That is why I can't fly anything... and that is why I get really flustrated with flight sims....

I have had offers of flying with people so I can take the controls and fly... but I refused. If I can't fly I don't want to even taste the thrill of flying.

[JB007]

Christ,
Just a touch embarrassing !!!
Sounds like your mate Murray needs shooting!!

007



------------------
Hear all....see all....say n'owt !

[AeroBoero]

There are side effects too!
Remember that weirdo last year who stabbed to death a ANA captain and almost flew the 747 in to the ground because "he wanted to fly like in the sim he had home and he tought of being capable of doing so"!!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Now talk about loonies....(again)..... :)

------------------
Reporte través de XAREO

[Murray_NN]

But this guy really knows his stuff. One day he was patrolling the aprons when he spotted something was not right in an aircraft that was being pushed back. A closer inspection of the aircraft reveald that one of the covers for god know's what had not been replaced. The next thing we hear was him trying to get through to the ATC with his flimsy walkie-talkie. Anyway he never succeded by getting in touch with the tower...so he had to pass his message on.
When ATC received the message they thanked him sincerely. ATC passed the message to the Captain and they had to re-park and solve the genuine problem he spotted. He was really chuffed at work. He was also mentioned in the daily briefing sheet.

Whenever there is a push at the aprons he watches planes until the engines are turned on. I ask him why? He says they may overspeed the aircraft. I think to myself what a sad, sad world.

Oh his occupation by the way is Ground Security Supervisor at LHR.
P.S. we cant fine planes if they overspeed!!!

[Localiser]

Time for my pennies worth....

I'm an instructor and would like to point out that teaching people to fly that have spent a significant amount of time playing Flight Sims is a complete nightmare. The reasons are two fold:

They tend to stare at the instruments all the time and getting them to perform any form of lookout is very difficult indeed;
The major difficulty is that they Know it all already, or at least think that they do!

Yes, this is quite a generalisation and there are exceptions but the above is applicable to the majority... I believe only multi-million pound simulators can truly emulate the fluid-like state of the atmosphere - not a £50 effort from GAME or PC WORLD! ;)

[PapaPapaLima]

Club together at work and buy the guy a trial lesson for his birthday. It is the only solution I can come up with. It will possibly bring him into reality or at least shut him up about MSFS for a short while. Encourage him to have a go. If the bug bites MSFS will be forgotten forever.

------------------
G'day

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hey!! Ok, fair enough, many flightsim users are in danger of getting delusions of grandure when they get into the real thing. I myself suffered from this WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN!
As Mr Instructor points out, many bad habits can be created, before you've ever set foot in a Cessna, by flying home simulations. The worst being an 'I know how to do this' attitude. Anyone who thinks this after 500hrs or whatever on FS98 is kidding themselves.

HOWEVER, I have found this program inparticular to be very useful. I have learned a lot about flying by flying this sim, using all the IFR charts, enroute charts , basic FMS programs etc etc. My mental arithmatic ability has quadrupled, but not only that. It has also taught me to look out of the windows!!!

This is a major gripe with flightsimmy folk, that they get in a plane and spend the rest of the flight tranfixed on the instruments. You get no feel with a flight sim. Fair enough but, you do find out how to handle the plane on a basic level i.e, how to control speed/alt etc in turns, climbs, decents and on approach. I learned how to position an aircraft a circuit visually and set up a good approach at the correct speeds, altitudes etc and not just on the instruments!!

ALERT! Real world story coming up, of the 'I can do it' variety. Blast shields up.

I took an introductory flight at Blackbushe in a 152. I taxied, lined up, took off at 60kts, accelerated to 80kts for the climb and then did basic handling stuff for half an hour. Absolutely great, and no problems (until I got distracted on lookout and lost a few hundered feet unintentionally, oops!). The instructor, beyond and few "don't worry"s didn't touch a thing. Then it came time to land and to my delight he let me fly the whole thing. And fly it I did. I flew the approach, straight in on the base leg of the circuit, turned in and started the descent, trimming for 65kts after the final stage of flap. There was also a significant crosswind and we therefore had to fly the centre line with a heading correction for the wind (something else I learned to do in FS98).

Landing a light aircraft is something I believe FS98 cannot prepare you for, though it can help you make the necessary corrections with a certain amount of instinctiveness.

At 20ft or so above the runway the crosswind dissapeared, and with it went a good amount of our airspeed. To me it seemed that the plane suddenly went into freefall (I'm sure to the instructor it was normal, but it did seem to take him a bit by surprise). In the same motion he and I shoved the throttle in (FS98 does not teach you about rich cuts) and hauled back on the yoke, arresting the sink just as we hit the tarmac. On the rollout I half asked, half told him,'That wasn't my fault right?', 'No'.

Good. Best thing is I didn't panic, it all seemed very matter-0f-fact. Jelly legs on the way back to the car though!!

Through all this rambling (should anyone actually bother to read it all ;)) is that without my time on FS98 I wouldn't have been able to do anything at all. As it was, the instructor (as far as I know) didn't touch the controls until the final part of the landing approach, and most of this was done VISUALLY! I didn't look at the instruments unless it was to confirm my speed or altitude, and then only when necessary. I kept a lookout when I was told, which was most of the time, and was able to position the aircraft, in a crosswind, for a good approach and landing. All of this with 2hrs experience on light aircratf and all because I have a good idea of what a visual circuit aught to look like from the plane by using FS98!!

My conclusion:

IMHO If used properly, flight sims are not just instrument proceedure trainers. They can give a no time pilot a good grounding in how to handle the controls to achieve desired alt , speed etc and how to maintain these during manouvers.

Sorry to go on at lenghth, but I do get fed up of those virtuall rolling eyes everytime I mention PC flight sims.

VS

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hey!! Ok, fair enough, many flightsim users are in danger of getting delusions of grandure when they get into the real thing. I myself suffered from this WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN!
As Mr Localiser points out, many bad habits can be created, before you've ever set foot in a Cessna, by flying home simulations. The worst being an 'I know how to do this' attitude. Anyone who thinks this after 500hrs or whatever on FS98 is kidding themselves.

HOWEVER, I have found this program inparticular to be very useful. I have learned a lot about flying by flying this sim, using all the IFR charts, enroute charts , basic FMS programs etc etc. My mental arithmatic ability has quadrupled, but not only that. It has also taught me to look out of the windows!!!

This is a major gripe with flightsimmy folk, that they get in a plane and spend the rest of the flight tranfixed on the instruments. You get no feel with a flight sim. Fair enough but, you do find out how to handle the plane on a basic level i.e, how to control speed/alt etc in turns, climbs, decents and on approach. I learned how to position an aircraft a circuit visually and set up a good approach at the correct speeds, altitudes etc and not just on the instruments!!

ALERT! Real world story coming up, of the 'I can do it' variety. Blast shields up.

I took an introductory flight at Blackbushe in a 152. I taxied, lined up, took off at 60kts, accelerated to 80kts for the climb and then did basic handling stuff for half an hour. Absolutely great, and no problems (until I got distracted on lookout and lost a few hundered feet unintentionally, oops!). The instructor, beyond and few "don't worry"s didn't touch a thing. Then it came time to land and to my delight he let me fly the whole thing. And fly it I did. I flew the approach, straight in on the base leg of the circuit, turned in and started the descent, trimming for 65kts after the final stage of flap. There was also a significant crosswind and we therefore had to fly the centre line with a heading correction for the wind (something else I learned to do in FS98).

Landing a light aircraft is something I believe FS98 cannot prepare you for, though it can help you make the necessary corrections with a certain amount of instinctiveness.

At 20ft or so above the runway the crosswind dissapeared, and with it went a good amount of our airspeed. To me it seemed that the plane suddenly went into freefall (I'm sure to the instructor it was normal, but it did seem to take him a bit by surprise). In the same motion he and I shoved the throttle in (FS98 does not teach you about rich cuts) and hauled back on the yoke, arresting the sink just as we hit the tarmac. On the rollout I half asked, half told him,'That wasn't my fault right?', 'No'.

Good. Best thing is I didn't panic, it all seemed very matter-0f-fact. Jelly legs on the way back to the car though!!

Through all this rambling (should anyone actually bother to read it all ;)) is that without my time on FS98 I wouldn't have been able to do anything at all. As it was, the instructor (as far as I know) didn't touch the controls until the final part of the landing approach, and most of this was done VISUALLY! I didn't look at the instruments unless it was to confirm my speed or altitude, and then only when necessary. I kept a lookout when I was told, which was most of the time, and was able to position the aircraft, in a crosswind, for a good approach and landing. All of this with 2hrs experience on light aircratf and all because I have a good idea of what a visual circuit aught to look like from the plane by using FS98!!

My conclusion:

IMHO If used properly, flight sims are not just instrument proceedure trainers. They can give a no time pilot a good grounding in how to handle the controls to achieve desired alt , speed etc and how to maintain these during manouvers.

Sorry to go on at lenghth, but I do get fed up of those virtuall rolling eyes everytime I mention PC flight sims.

VS

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hey!! Ok, fair enough, many flightsim users are in danger of getting delusions of grandure when they get into the real thing. I myself suffered from this WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN!
As Mr Localiser points out, many bad habits can be created, before you've ever set foot in a Cessna, by flying home simulations. The worst being an 'I know how to do this' attitude. Anyone who thinks this after 500hrs or whatever on FS98 is kidding themselves.

HOWEVER, I have found this program inparticular to be very useful. I have learned a lot about flying by flying this sim, using all the IFR charts, enroute charts , basic FMS programs etc etc. My mental arithmatic ability has quadrupled, but not only that. It has also taught me to look out of the windows!!!

This is a major gripe with flightsimmy folk, that they get in a plane and spend the rest of the flight tranfixed on the instruments. You get no feel with a flight sim. Fair enough, but you do find out how to handle the plane on a basic level i.e, how to control speed/alt etc in turns, climbs, decents and on approach. I learned how to position an aircraft a circuit visually and set up a good approach at the correct speeds, altitudes etc and not just on the instruments!!

ALERT! Real world story coming up, of the 'I can do it' variety. Blast shields up.

I took an introductory flight at Blackbushe in a 152. I taxied, lined up, took off at 60kts, accelerated to 80kts for the climb and then did basic handling stuff for half an hour. Absolutely great, and no problems (until I got distracted on lookout and lost a few hundered feet unintentionally, oops!). The instructor, beyond and few "don't worry"s didn't touch a thing. Then it came time to land and to my delight he let me fly the whole thing. And fly it I did. I flew the approach, straight in on the base leg of the circuit, turned in and started the descent, trimming for 65kts after the final stage of flap. There was also a significant crosswind and we therefore had to fly the centre line with a heading correction for the wind (something else I learned to do in FS98).

Landing a light aircraft is something I believe FS98 cannot prepare you for, though it can help you make the necessary corrections with a certain amount of instinctiveness.

At 20ft or so above the runway the crosswind dissapeared, and with it went a good amount of our airspeed. To me it seemed that the plane suddenly went into freefall (I'm sure to the instructor it was normal, but it did seem to take him a bit by surprise). In the same motion he and I shoved the throttle in (FS98 does not teach you about rich cuts) and hauled back on the yoke, arresting the sink just as we hit the tarmac. On the rollout I half asked, half told him,'That wasn't my fault right?', 'No'.

Good. Best thing is I didn't panic, it all seemed very matter-of-fact. Jelly legs on the way back to the car though!!

My point, through all this rambling (should anyone actually bother to read it all ;)) is that without my time on FS98 I wouldn't have been able to do anything at all. As it was, the instructor (as far as I know) didn't touch the controls until the final part of the landing approach, and most of this was done VISUALLY! I didn't look at the instruments unless it was to confirm my speed or altitude, and then only when necessary. I kept a lookout when I was told, which was most of the time, and was able to position the aircraft, in a crosswind, for a good approach and landing. All of this with 2hrs experience on light aircraft and all because I have a good idea of what a visual circuit aught to look like from the plane by using FS98!!

My conclusion:

IMHO If used properly, flight sims are not just instrument proceedure trainers. They can give a no time pilot a good grounding in how to handle the controls to achieve desired alt , speed etc and how to maintain these during manouvers.

Sorry to go on at length, but I do get fed up of those virtual rolling eyes everytime I mention PC flight sims.

VS

[W.Pooh.DK]

Thank God a guy like that is restricted inside an airport, and not foolin´ around outside. Say like in the Highway police. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

------------------
Winnie Pooh

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hey!! Ok, fair enough, many flightsim users are in danger of getting delusions of grandure when they get into the real thing. I myself suffered from this WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN!
As Mr Localiser points out, many bad habits can be created, before you've ever set foot in a Cessna, by flying home simulations. The worst being an 'I know how to do this' attitude. Anyone who thinks this after 500hrs or whatever on FS98 is kidding themselves.

HOWEVER, I have found this program inparticular to be very useful. I have learned a lot about flying by flying this sim, using all the IFR charts, enroute charts , basic FMS programs etc etc. My mental arithmatic ability has quadrupled, but not only that. It has also taught me to look out of the windows!!!

This is a major gripe with flightsimmy folk, that they get in a plane and spend the rest of the flight tranfixed on the instruments. You get no feel with a flight sim. Fair enough, but you do find out how to handle the plane on a basic level i.e, how to control speed/alt etc in turns, climbs, decents and on approach. I learned how to position an aircraft a circuit visually and set up a good approach at the correct speeds, altitudes etc and not just on the instruments!!

ALERT! Real world story coming up, of the 'I can do it' variety. Blast shields up.

I took an introductory flight at Blackbushe in a 152. I taxied, lined up, took off at 60kts, accelerated to 80kts for the climb and then did basic handling stuff for half an hour. Absolutely great, and no problems (until I got distracted on lookout and lost a few hundered feet unintentionally, oops!). The instructor, beyond and few "don't worry"s didn't touch a thing. Then it came time to land and to my delight he let me fly the whole thing. And fly it I did. I flew the approach, straight in on the base leg of the circuit, turned in and started the descent, trimming for 65kts after the final stage of flap. There was also a significant crosswind and we therefore had to fly the centre line with a heading correction for the wind (something else I learned to do in FS98).

Landing a light aircraft is something I believe FS98 cannot prepare you for, though it can help you make the necessary corrections with a certain amount of instinctiveness.

At 20ft or so above the runway the crosswind dissapeared, and with it went a good amount of our airspeed. To me it seemed that the plane suddenly went into freefall (I'm sure to the instructor it was normal, but it did seem to take him a bit by surprise). In the same motion he and I shoved the throttle in (FS98 does not teach you about rich cuts) and hauled back on the yoke, arresting the sink just as we hit the tarmac. On the rollout I half asked, half told him,'That wasn't my fault right?', 'No'.

Good. Best thing is I didn't panic, it all seemed very matter-of-fact. Jelly legs on the way back to the car though!!

My point, through all this rambling (should anyone actually bother to read it all ;)) is that without my time on FS98 I wouldn't have been able to do anything at all. As it was, the instructor (as far as I know) didn't touch the controls until the final part of the landing approach, and most of this was done VISUALLY! I didn't look at the instruments unless it was to confirm my speed or altitude, and then only when necessary. I kept a lookout when I was told, which was most of the time, and was able to position the aircraft, in a crosswind, for a good approach and landing. All of this with 2hrs experience on light aircraft and all because I have a good idea of what a visual circuit aught to look like from the plane by using FS98!!

My conclusion:

IMHO If used properly, flight sims are not just instrument proceedure trainers. They can give a no time pilot a good grounding in how to handle the controls to achieve desired alt , speed etc and how to maintain these during manouvers.

Sorry to go on at length, but I do get fed up of those virtual rolling eyes everytime I mention PC flight sims.

VS

[W.Pooh.DK]

Thank God a guy like that is restricted to work inside an airport. Imagine him on the highway........ http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

------------------
Winnie Pooh

[5150]

What a deeply depressing person.

[5150]

What a deeply depressing individual.

[cedarjett]

I too know someone who fits exactly the description above - talks as though it's real ('bad weather last night in Delhi' etc) and I find it excruciatingly embarrassing. He also insists that it increases flying proficiency (he may even log his 'hours' for all I know). I can scarcely think of a more dangerous delusion for a wannabe - as some of you have mentioned, it might assist in a couple of very rudimentary aspects but basically thinking that a joystick connected to a PC bears any relation to flying an aircraft is a good way to get yourself killed. Scary stuff.

And no, I have never seen a professional pilot land an FS game. Especially that f***ing Learjet.

[cedarjett]

I too know someone who fits exactly the description above - talks as though it's real ('bad weather last night in Delhi' etc) and I find it excruciatingly embarrassing. He also insists that it increases flying proficiency (he may even log his 'hours' for all I know). I can scarcely think of a more dangerous delusion for a wannabe - as some of you have mentioned, it might assist in a couple of very rudimentary aspects but basically thinking that a joystick connected to a PC bears any relation to flying an aircraft is a good way to get yourself killed. Scary stuff.

And no, I have never seen a professional pilot land an FS game. Especially that f***ing Learjet.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUPax Anyway, at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

Maybe too late to fly professionally but you can fly privately all you want; a two-hour rental is cheaper than even a short-haul commercial flight. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's definitely the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Further to my earlier posting, taking a MSFS sim pilot on a trial flight wouldn't be a problem; hopefully I'd show him a thing or two. But if he was a 'spotter', no chance!

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[jigsawblue]

I suspect the guy lacks something in his life.
He certainly has a simplistic view of flying.
Lucky for us he's just a sim pilot.

I have to say having operated all the FS range
at one time or another, I could see how a
pilot might like it, after all it's useful for
maintaining a good scan when for one reason
or another you may not be flying. But for the
life of me I can't understand why non-pilots
and never-be pilots like it!
For all of those who have flown FS but not
the real thing. The key difference is the view,
no amount of RAM can match that. Also the
underlying tension which you often feel when
you fly, This tension is usually a manifestation
of the old pilot's prayer 'Please God don't let me
screw up' not fear, I leave that to my passengers!

I'm pleased to hear I'm not the only pilot who
can't land FS I suspect it's something to do with
the fact we subconscously look for cues which
are simply not available in a PC. Whereas a PC
pilot has no such preconceptions.
Many is the time I crashed an burned after faultless
flights.
I suspect that new students who have flown
FS2000 would fixate on the instruments, that panel
is all dominating.

[Suggs]

Land it, I can never even find the poxy Airfield. The aids never tie up and the whole experience is a waste of 30 Squid.

Ever seen a trolley tart in the sim and what about Night Stops? Remember boys the apprentaship to become a dirty old man starts at 15!

------------------
Graham McPherson

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Tor]

Maybe this is what is his problem?

"Topic: Sims make you drunk?"
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/008954.html

Tor :)

[HF8903]

Yep I had the 'know it all' syndrome from flying the sim. I must admit though
im not too bad in reality although my experience is very little,I owe some of it to the sim. I think if flown correctly a beginner can improve his/her touch on the yoke. I think it helped mine a little
But i must agree with the above...its value is limited and take it with a grain of salt

A l e s s a n d r o

[BigJETS]

About this sim dork that someone mentioned. He spotted a problem with a plane on pushback? That is commendable. Why didnt the pilot realize the problem on pre-flight walk-around?

------------------
Rotate, Please! http://bigjets.tripod.com/flightline/

[JetAgeHobo]

Ok, I'll admit to starting out many years ago on FS4.0, yoke pedals and all. When came time to upgrade to FS2000, the choice was, $2500 for a computer to run the thing, or $2500 block time for flying lessons to get started.

Then the real world hit---FS is maybe great for kind of getting the handg, of instrument training, but isn't worth diddly for VFR or initial training. First time I set foot in a REAL airplane, I put the whole FS mess away and haven't touched it since. I've yet to get airsick doing hooded unusal attitude recovery in FS, but my instructor regularly enjoys my green complexion after about 6 of those in a row.

I promise, if I ever do a flight deck visit, I'll never mention FS.

[Murray_NN]

BigJets,
It was noticed when the plane was BEING pushed back. Maybe it happened after the Pilot finished his checks.

I will find out more when I see him again though.

[Localiser]

Don't get me wrong though...

...I think that MSFS can be extremely useful during later stages of training (i.e. Instrument flying). I have used it many times myself to practice instrument procedures!

:)

[geh065]

I used to spend hours on flightsim doing all sorts of wild things for fun, and when I first went to fly a real aircraft, the instructors all thought that I had many hours experience. Although theory was never my strong point, flightsim can improve hand-eye coordination, instrument scan and the precise small movements needed when flying a precise approach, or the fast reactions when flying during a bad day.

I also knew all about navaids and how to read them as soon as I first flew IFR. It gave me that little bit of a head start that was useful.

I agree that there are loads of nutters out there that think they can do it all, but MSFS is not a bad tool if you are aware that it's only a game.

[Squawk 8888]

BRUpax
at 50 I'm too old to start a new career so let me enjoy my little fantasy on FS.

You're never too old to be a private pilot, though, and a two-hour rental is cheaper than most short-haul commercial flights. I got my licence last year at the age of 36 and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

[Saab340Pilot]

As an airline pilot who grew up playing MSFS in all its versions and also owns the most current version FS2000 I can say this: It is NOTHING like the real thing.

First off I guess I am weird... I can land the sim AND the real thing but as many know there is a huge difference in the real thing from the sim which is horrible in showing the real "feel" of being in a plane. The MSFS is terrible at reproducing the sense of speed, visual cues, or control forces of a real airplane. It is EXCELLENT however for making people intrested in avaition (I really believe MSFS plays some role in me being a professional pilot today) and giving some a general idea of what goes on in a cockpit.

I have no problem with people telling me they fly MSFS and want to talk shop with a real pilot. I would laugh if like some people have stated I were approached by a MSFS jockey who started wanting to compare the finer tips of landing the Saab 340B based on the latest version they downloaded in the sim.

The sim is incredible for $49 but please $49 does not teach you to fly a $10,000,000 plane.

------------------

[Saab340Pilot]

A little off topic but I have to share this story... when my company used to fly the Jetstream 31 we would do a Torque/Temp limiter check on the runway before the first flight of the morning. The check involved a fair amount of power being applied with the brakes held and then testing the system which backed down some power automatically which could be heard audibly quite easily by everyone in the airplane. Anyway one of our crews was reported to the FAA as being delinquent because a general aviation Cessna pilot reported that the "Mag Check" was too quick and sounded wrong yet our plane still departed!

LOL!

[BigJETS]

Saab340Pilot--Thanks for the post. Congratulations on making it to the major league.
I think flight sim is a great outlet for wannabee frustration.
Unrelated to flight sim really- but on a flight from IAD to MDW one time I was on a DC9 taxiing to our rwy. My girlfriend and I decided to request a back seat behind the wings and next to the engines to get some pictures. As we taxied out I was looking into the front of the engine and wondering why the fwd turbine wasnt rotating. I thought "oh boy". :) Is this normal?", I thought. I just decided that we were taxiing with engine no. 2 until we get to our holding position to conserve gas, then warm up no.1 and go. Well there wasn't any delay. We rounded the rwy and all the ponies started singing. Thrust felt good and we were rotatin. I decided I didnt know everything about jet engines. That turbine looking thing didnt move for the whole flight. Must not be a turbine I thought, maybe an air diffuser of some sort. I'm glad I didnt run to the flight deck.

------------------
Rotate, Please! http://bigjets.tripod.com/flightline/

[Doors to Automatic]

I had exactly the same experience once taxying out in a DC9 at MSP. Thought that we were taxying on one engine until the take-off roll started. It then dawned on me that the bit that wasn't spinning probably wasn't meant to!!

[Tor]

Only fun flightsims are those where you can shoot someone down or bomb innocent civilians :) (maybe thinking they are politicians).

or journalists

Tor



[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 28 July 2000).]

[Cessna]

Dear Sirs-

I'm a private pilot. I've found PC based sims to be useful for IFR procedures training. When I have an hour to myself and the weather is bad, I may fly a few holding patterns or the like on a sim, just to practice the mental aspects of flying.

But to think a PC sim is a substitute for time in a real plane? Absolutely not- no way.

And as for anyone who spends 8-12 hours flying a computer game? He needs a girlfriend...

[NudgingSteel]

I always felt that I could excuse my crashing FS98 because, hey, I'm not a pilot in real life. Good fun though.

Imagine my joy on having a go on a game called "Tower", (great looking ATC tower simulator). Now this I should be good at since I'm paid to do it full time....

About four minutes later I had the first of many, many major incidents. You wouldn't believe how dangerous I was.....some days later I finally gave up and haven't played it since. Read into this what you will.

[hi on oz]

FS98 or 2000 matters not. They DEFINATELY DO NOT fly like the real thing.

A "true to life" Aircraft Simulator is totally different.

At any time you have had enough (during a MSFS session) or the weather gets TOO bad you can slip on the pause button, go get another cup of cofee or even turn it off and go to bed - not so the real thing!

With the sim there is never a time that your life and those of others on board may be threatened and dependent on You making the correct decision!

Certainly many who use MSFS have shown great aptitude when given the chance to fly the real thing solely by reference to instruments but are yet to learn the art of decision making

[henri's psychiatrist]

This phenomenon is all too familiar to me. Ordinary people are constantly encouraged to have delusions of disproportionate skill and ability, especially in clappy-happy-shiny-
chummy Blair's Britain.

Allied with Bill Gates Aviation's sales hyperbolae - "as real as it gets" - this syndrome is unfortunately responsible for a lot of shattered dreams amongst the clueless masses who should really set their sights lower in life.



------------------
I'm coming mother!

[henri's social worker]

...until the next war when those of the "clueless masses" who show the right stuff are made sgt. pilots.

------------------

[wuzatforus?]

henri's social worker. Thing is, next war there won't be any real pilots, it'll all be RPVs and the guys operating will be todays interactive gamers! Reality will now match fantasy!
Scary.

[wuzatforus?]

Smurfy,Busy day out at Greenfield Airport! Is that one of them Irish runways? It may be a little short, but b'jeesus the things narrow too!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well a 12-hours-a-day flight sim addict may indeed be a big fat loser ... but when it comes to people who have completely lost their grip on reality it's hard to go past plane-spotters. Any time you feel like a laugh at those less fortunate than yourself, a trip to the LHR observation platform is well worth it. A big bunch of 40 or 50 middle aged men, sitting up there in all sorts of weather with their binoculars, logbooks and scanners, diligently writing down the rego of every aircraft that taxis past. Funny part is they're all there for the duration, half of them have even brought deckchairs and picnic baskets for chrissake!! I never knew people like that existed. They all have that sloping-forehead missing link appearance about them, you get the overwhelming feeling that they still wet the bed at age 55. What a complete waste of good oxygen ...

[Suggs]

Probably a good tool, I could never land the thing. The real problem with it is that it cannot give you a clearance to copy 500' above DA when your getting knocked all over the place and cannot land because the runway is blocked.

------------------
Graham McPherson

[waco]

Atn Nudging Steel

Hey ! Where did you manage to get "Tower"
from. Am desperate to get it.

[BigJETS]

Mr SkyToddler-- And what exquisite pastimes do you enjoy? Does the Reich still offer rectal examinations? You might benefit from one. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif


------------------
Rotate, Please! http://bigjets.tripod.com/flightline/

[Smoketrails]

I can land the Learjet :)

Do I win a prize:confused http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gifA jumpseat ride on one of your L1011's Guv?!? :))

[Smoketrails]

Woops! I will do that again.

I can land the Learjet :)

Do I win a prize http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

A jumpseat ride on one of your L1011's Guv?!? :) :) :)

[Waldo Pepper]

Honestly, what a load of old tosh. I've watched this thread develop over the last few days, but now my patience has gone. The simple truth is that flying a real airliner can't be any more difficult than an accurately flown detail in FS2000. Pilots just don't want to admit this unpalatable truth, because they are protective of their positions as a perceived elite. Also, if everyone knew how simple the job really is, they wouldn't be able to justify their overinflated salaries. Yes, and it's not fair that aircraft spotters are vilified for pursuing an honest, enjoyable and interesting hobby that hurts no-one. Just the other day I was practically thrown from a hangar mid-spot, as it were, by an aircraft owner worried that I might lay a finger on his precious aeroplane. I wasn't exactly sneaking around- the hangar door had been left ajar, AND I was wearing a hi-vis jacket...but pilots are too egotistical and arrogant to respect the rights of the spotter. Well if no-one photographed their aeroplanes and watched them as they took off and landed...well, they'd complain about that too.

[Waldo Pepper]

Honestly, what a load of old tosh. I've watched this thread develop over the last few days, but now my patience has gone. The simple truth is that flying a real airliner can't be any more difficult than an accurately flown detail in FS2000. Pilots just don't want to admit this unpalatable truth, because they are protective of their positions as a perceived elite. Also, if everyone knew how simple the job really is, they wouldn't be able to justify their overinflated salaries. Yes, and it's not fair that aircraft spotters are vilified for pursuing an honest, enjoyable and interesting hobby that hurts no-one. Just the other day I was practically thrown from a hangar mid-spot, as it were, by an aircraft owner worried that I might lay a finger on his precious aeroplane. I wasn't exactly sneaking around- the hangar door had been left ajar, AND I was wearing a hi-vis jacket...but pilots are too egotistical and arrogant to respect the rights of the spotter. Well if no-one photographed their aeroplanes and watched them as they took off and landed...well, they'd complain about that too.

[Murray_NN]

Waldo P
You have made a good point about the spotters. They are doing no harm.
About the rest of your reply, well I'm not too knowledgable at this time, so therefor no comment.

[rubik101]

Hello Waldo!
Poling an aircraft around the sky is easy when you know how. Just as playing a simulator game is easy when you know how.
What your software won't teach you is the follwing short list of absolutely irrelavent skills:
A Cabin Manager who has a dodgy boyfriend.
A late Cabin Crew member.
A Finger with no finger driver.
A GPU which wont deliver the goods.
An APU that wont start.
A Slot.
A congested delivery/ground/tower freq.
An FO with halitosis.
An FE with an attitude problem.
Spelling.
I could go on and fill about three sheets of foolscap, as it's called, but I think you get the point; or do you; will you ever?
Let reggie spotters, game players etc do their own thing but don't ever get the idea you can be a Pilot just by playing on your PC!

[Doors to Automatic]

A pilot once told me that the job was 99% sheer boredom and 1% sheer terror. When people criticise pilots they often don't see the 1%. I have been there and seen it on a flight into EDI with gale force gusting winds - 2 attempts to get in and a plane load of vomiting and terrified passengers!! There is no way on earth I would have wanted to have been in charge of that ship and I have the greatest respect for the guys that do it for real.

However, as someone who has flown FS2000 once or twice, I had a go on the BA simulator at Farnborough last week. When we'd finished I asked the First Officer who had guided me through how close the simulator was to the real thing and he said "very". I have to say that it did not feel too dissimilar to FS2000.

[Cessna]

Dear Sirs-

Yes, but are there "simulator" plane-spotters?

Start up the computer, pull up the deck chair, and sit and watch the screen for 8 hours, writing down the numbers of the planes that the computer puts on the screen...?

I can see it now...

[flygirl2]

I am a PPL/IR pilot with limited experience. I have had a few brief encounters with computer based flight sims, but, unlike my actual flying, usually end up completely lost or crashing. Been uncertain of position a few times, but never lost of course !

Inerestingly, I did have the opportunity a few months ago to fly a real 767 sim at EMA (EGNX) and... even if I say so myself did a pretty good job. Now I know you get a lot of help from the back seat, but does this say someting about 'real' flying. Standard computer (PC)based sims just do not give you a perspective on motion and the 'feel' of an a/c.

[Vortex Wake]

I have to admit to owning FS98 (and FS 2000 which is back in it's box until I get a more souped up computer!)
Considering what you can do wrong when you're flying and get away with you can hardly call yourself a pro because you can work this.
Why not speak to the pilots he knows about the possibility of a pilots job,they might respect him more for trying.
Does he spot planes? I have a plane spotting friend who went on about how many united's he's seen so my reply was "I've seen only one,do the rest look different?".
I suppose if it was too realistic nobody would buy it-who wants to wait 10 minutes for the last pax to arrive from the bar then be given a 30 min ATC delay before they can race off down the virtual runway!!


[This message has been edited by Vortex Wake (edited 31 July 2000).]

[NudgingSteel]

If any non-pilots are reading this thread and ever get the chance to try a real, commercial simulator, give it a go. I was fortunate enough to have a shot at one of the latest 747-400 sims a little while back. Amazing! Ever since then I have been saving up for the day I can finally have one in my house (complete with operator who knows how to turn the thing on). Only several million quid left to go.

waco....
I can't for the life of me remember who published Tower. I will attempt to find out, if I can get something I'll let you know!
Rgds
NS

[CaptainSquelch]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gifEvery once in a while (about six times a year) I get a chance to try a multimillion dollar FlightSim. However hard I try to imagine it is the real thing, the bloody thing still can't fool me.
This big thing, programmed to near perfection by guys who are paid to do just that, build to the original cockpit layout with real switches and a real set of controls with a near real feel and a million dollar, six degrees of freedom, motion system, this big thing can't fool me.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif How could a desktop computer with a three CD-rom program and some harware fool me?

:)It is however a nice game with some features that resemble reality.

Sq

[FAL112]

Hopefully no-one out there could ever compare a sim on a PC to the real thing, but for a HUGE number of people its as close as they ever get. For some simming is a hobby, others a game. I'm a member of an organisation that just helps make simming a little more realsitic (and I know its still nowhere near the real thing!) If you want to see more check out our website.
http://www.satuk.org.uk
P.S. We have got quite a few real tin pushers and pilots amongst our ranks, so some of you enjoy it :-)

------------------
Daniel S. Harris
London ACC Assistant Chief
Website Development Team SATUK
Simulated Air Traffic Control on the Internet

[This message has been edited by FAL112 (edited 03 August 2000).]

[Eric the Red]

As so often happens, opinions seem to be have become ridiculously polarised on this subject.

I defy anyone to prove that flightsim programmes are utterly worthless as procedural "trainers", if you like: None of them are any cop at all compared to flying VFR for real, but as a means of practicing IFR procedures I found them to be very useful. If you don´t think they're ANY use in helping visualise ILSs or LOC/DMEs then you need your head examined.

Similarly, it´s ludicrous to suggest that they can "teach" you to fly for real - especially the heavy stuff - they simply give you an idea of it. Having spent 3 hours in one of the Cranebank 747-400s it's blindingly obvious that the PC has a way to go...

Don´t know about you Cap´n Squelch - when one of the chaps (a non-pilot, this time) allowed a wing to drop on unstick my heart lept into my mouth...real enough to fool me.

Cheers.

[yogibear]

Yo Waldo ,

Shouldn't be all that difficult huh ?
Well buddy I defy you to fly the FS2000 Bell Jetranger and then I personally invite you to transfer those so-called skills learned on the fs to the real thing....one bonafide Bell 206 Jetranger and lets see who starts sweating then huh ?

The Bear.......

------------------
Chopper pilots do it vertically....:-)

[Lawyerboy]

Just wondering, does anyone actually bother reading the profiles on here...?

:) :rolleyes:

[buck-rogers]

Howdy Lawyerboy

Only one thing more astonishing than a story about a village idiot is the correspondence that follows trying to understand it all.

Sometimes.

[Pandora]

Once upon a time I bought FS98. This'll be great, I thought. It will make me better at flying my little Cessna around and get me ready for IFR jollies. How wrong I was. All of you professional pilots who couldn't land the sim, at least congratulate yourself on getting airborne. I couldn't even manage a take off in the 182. I tried and tried and finally put it in a cupboard where it is to this day. Being incapable of flying Microsoft's finest doesn't seem to have hampered my journey to the RHS of something bigger.
Sims do have some small usefulness in helping with the IR, but FS98 and 2000 really don't fall into this category. If you want to learn to fly, pay for the flying lessons and then buy a computer. If you want to get more accustomed to instrument flying, try a program like RANT.
By the way I know an airline pilot, who even after starting a full time course still used to make apoint of how many passenger hours flying he had. Now that's worrying.

[Bigmouth]

I have never ¨flown¨ a computer but had multiple thousand hours of the real thing the first time I got a chance to fly a full motion sim. And I was all over the place. I guess all my years of stick and rudder were a waste, I should have gotten myself a PC and spent some more time in my den.

[SevenFiftySeven]

Just wanted to put in my 10 pence worth.
I am currently learning to fly and am studying for PPL. I am doing this purely as a hobby. I am not really interested in flying as a career (not yet anyway!).

I use FS2000 as a tool for various things, including instrument familiarisation and learning basic flight navigation.

I don't for one minute think that it is as easy to fly real aircraft as it is in FS2000. I definately don't think that you get the feel of an aircraft by using FS, but I do regard it as a reasonably good tool for certain tasks.

I know that some people will sit down and do an entire London to Sydney flight in one go. This I think is too much, but each to their own.

------------------
Water always finds it's own level

[OffCourse]

SevenFiftySeven:
Nice observations!

Use FS2000 and learn all you can from it. It is really nice to use for IFR training (navaid setups etc.), but once you have "learned" to fly the FS, it is time to move on!

[Rocket Scientist 504]

I found that MSFS helped with IFR training - only. Learning to takeoff and land the aircraft in MSFS seemed to be detrimental to my ability to takeoff and land a real one. I think it was something to do with perspectives and feel. As said in a previous post - air is fluid, MSFS cannot simulate this. You also can't simulate severe turbulence in crappy WX unless you put youself and MSFS in the tumble dryer!! (better get a laptop for that one) It also can't simulate fear and anxiety one can feel from time to time.
As I said earlier, for an IFR rating then procedurally speaking (is that a word?) it is relatively good. You're not paying big bucks in a twin to make all the mistakes that you can make in your lounge room.
Finally, to all the Simmers out there that think they would have a 'good chance' of landing a 'heavy' in reality - think again.
Your computer, desk amd chair are not moving. You are stationary. You are not doing 150kts in an oversized tricycle. You are not subjected to -1.5 G's in CAT. You are not going to die if you accidentally track into a mountain. If you are getting low on fuel you can just fill it up in midair. When your critical angle of attack is reached, the words "STALL" do not appear just above the dash on the windshield. Your life and the lives of three hundred punters behind you is not in danger if you land nose wheel first in the 777. Not a whole lot of pressure on your ability in the lounge room is there?
My advice to any who do not believe me....
Don't talk to pilots about your experiences in MSFS like your swapping war stories down at the aero club. They will think you are a ********.
Go to your local aerodrome. Find an Air Training School with PA-38's (Piper Tomahawks - nasty little trainers that really teach you to fly). Get a trial introductory flight.
Then put flight sim away till you do your IFR training. It'll help then.
Combat Flight simulator is more fun anyway. You can blow things up.
Think of it this way too, If you worked in a bank would you go home and play Bank Simulator 2000 for hours on end?


------------------
I am the NightRider.

[VFE]

I can't see a damn thing out the window on my 777.It is total black.No amount of reseting and farting about with the thing will shift it.
Crashed Concorde everytime.
Learjet is f£$**&* impossible.
Everything stops moving once in a while for about 10 seconds.
To my knowledge there are not 12 sports stadiums in Cambridge, MFS2000 has them there.
Still has it's advantages for instrument learning and runway visuals.
Ask my FI what he thinks of teaching those who "PLAY" FS and he'll tell you that it makes his job more of a bind.
Still, I admit having trouble staying off it!
Do the real thing I say, much more fun.

Cheers and happy landings, VFE.

------------------
And up we go!

[FMC]

For what its worth, I do not see any harm in a pilot and/or arm chair professional gaining some fun out of a sim product such as FS2000. Its when you start beliving your own BullS*&^ it becomes a bore.

Anyway, I have some serious thoughts at many so called professional pilots. With ever advancing technology on the flight deck real pilot skills are being eroded to a point that they are perfectly safe in their 150 million dollar 744 with 3 IRU,s twin GPS updating a LAND3 or 2 option a flightdeck that allows you to put just about every system into automatic and let the Boeing System Logic and the FMC do all the work. Take them out of their cosy airconditioned office into a small A/C and you have an accident waiting to happen. At the end of the day you both play with computers and do little real flying.

If any of them have ever flown something less then the size of a bus at 300 knots at night 150 feet AGL in a live combat situation with some raghead appempting an IR lock with a SAM7 lets talk. A lot more stressful then being left out of the second warm towel run.

FMC

[md80forum]

What an astonishing load of arrogance from you professional pilots in this thread !
After all, nobody in all these posts ever suggested PC simulation would make anybody even close to proficient to handle even a VFR Cessna real-life.

Nobody is coming to take your seats there upfront. Don't worry, aviating gentlemen. It is only a game. You are doing just fine.

[corsair]

Hmm, It's amazing how something so
little can cause such debate.
I can't land it either, it's ridiculous.
For you non pilots out there who think
we are arrogant. I often explain to people
who look into a cockpit and
say; 'Flying must be so difficult with all
those clocks and dials'. It's not difficult
at all, flying is relatively easy. You can go
solo in as little as 10 hours. 'Flying' is easy
it's all the other stuff that goes with it that
makes it difficult. Flying is the fun bit,
everything else is work.
No sim can ever match the sensation or
stresses of aviating.
If you don't believe me, compare something
you know. drive a car in a PC game, then drive
a real one. No comparsion is there?
FS2000 does have it's uses. but it's just
a good little simulator at the end of day.

As for planespotters, I never understood the
fascination but I too love looking at aeroplanes.
At least aeroplanes are interesting.
Trainspotters, now that's weird, you see them in
stations spotting the same trains over and over
again. Amazing!

[Lucky Angel]

Did any one see that guy on the news the day after Concorde crashed..The guy said that using fs2000, he failed the engine after t/o from charles de gaulle numerous times and he always crashed at the same place the real thing did...I bet he saw the girl running out of the hotel too.....What is even more stupid is that the media took it seriously and showed him on tv....SAD...........

------------------
Fly high be safe !!

[Murray_NN]

When the media published the details about the Concorde crash, they made so much mistakes that it was unbelievable. They are so gullible to believe someone with only FS experience explaining the accident.

[Sideslip]

tee hee,

If any Journo's out there need info on Bell206 crashes, I'm you're man.
On FS98 I stoof it in every time :)

If you want to simulate, use proper sim.
If you want to fly, use an aircraft.
If you want to muck about...use MS fltsim :)

Anything else..is pants.

[Vortex Wake]

Remember the ZX spectrum simulator-havn't times moved on ;)

[Capt PPRuNe]

As this thread goes past the 100 replies mark I have to close it... nah! Lets see how the new server handles long threads.

This posting seems to have generated a lot of replies and having quickly scanned through some of them I am not suprised. Anyone who quotes that flying the real thing is as easy as playing with a PC flight sim is obviously on a wind up and shame on those of you who fell for it and replied indignantly in defence of the real job.

I must admit to once being a 'plane spotter'. I did grow out of it, well the registration collecting part but I still enjoy watching the things from close up near a threshold once on a while even if it is only whilst waiting to line up. I even sagged off school for 2 weeks once and spent every day at Liverpool Airport until I was caught. Look where it got me!

I remember when I was studying for my IR I used to use the original MS Flight Sim for the Apple Mac, an old black and white program to help me visualise some of the instruments for various approaches but I am sure there are some better programs out there for that kind of practice. The program would never help for any type of flying experience but it did help to visualise how some nav instruments would look and change during an approach.

So, don't let the flight sim 'experts' wind up the rest of you airline pilots out there too much. We know what is involved in the job and they only 'think' they know what is involved. Button pushing? Yeah, sure.

------------------
Capt PPRuNe
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[FlyingV]

My first 'flying' experience was NightFlight for the ZX Spectrum - I can't believe how much I enjoyed it.

I currently have FS2000 on my PC but since I started flying for real I haven't touched it - there's just no comparison with the real thing.

V.

[Murray_NN]

Thanks for your input Captain!!!

[BigJETS]

Id just like to say that if I was alone in a 737, on the ready and I had to push the throttles up and take that baby up in the air, Id faint.
I didnt say I wouldnt like to try a turn at thirty thousand though. With an instructor of course. If the instructor suddenly died of a heart attack--Id faint.

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Rotate, Please! airliner/in-flight photo site (http://members.tripod.com/bigjets/flightline/)

[Mach None]

Get a life!!

[BigJETS]

Its about time someone replied to my post. Thats a compliment, right?
MACH NONE!!


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Rotate, Please! airliner/in-flight photo site (http://members.tripod.com/bigjets/flightline/)

[Avman]

So, Captain PPRuNe, you're the one I see flying his 757/767 wearing an anorak! :)

[desertbootz]

Try FA-18 Hornet on a Mac with Voodoo accelerators...maximum fun.

Anyone gets on my tit$ at work and hey presto, that very evening they find themselves flying a Fulcrum before becoming a greasy black smudge over the Korean DMZ. All of lifes frustrations are worked out as I humiliate my erstwhile irritators in the air and on the ground before landing for medals and adulation.

Superb, harmless and cheap entertainment, where else can I land a B52 on a carrier, buzz the tower at Inchong doing 600 knots inverted at 50ft AGL and pop the finger, bomb stuff, shoot it down and generally make a complete nuisance of myself...not in real life that's for sure.

You might want to try Longbow Apache too... "launching hellfires!"

Must dash, nurse has found me out of bed again.

[Tower]

Some of you guys need to get out more and experience real life.

[ACARS]

I have to admit, I owned FS98 and FS2000 but since I started working towards my PPL in April I have not used MSFS. It was good when I was young, but it can't beat the real thing. Okay it gives you a basic understanding, but before anyone says, I have never said to a instructor, 'I own MSFS at home'. I don't claim to be a great pilot, but I am enjoying working towards my PPL.

There's no harm in people enjoying MSFS. It's their choice. I have just moved on from that now.........Let them 'play' in peace.

[This message has been edited by ACARS (edited 17 August 2000).]

[buck-rogers]

Desertbootz,

Betya can't land your F18 on an oilrig!

Got to agree, buzzin the tower at 600 is great fun. Have you flown inverted through a hangar yet? Stress!

[BANZAI PILOT]

Please remember to All Nippon hijack in last year.
Hijacker was player on Microsoft who also belive he can fly 747 under Tokyo Rainbow Brige and so he kill Captain to make his pleasure of flyng. He looses controll 3 or 4 times before another deadhead crews catch him.

[twistedenginestarter]

Let me first say I can't land the 737 (FS98) VFR although the real thing is a just a little peach. However I can land it Cat IIIZ (zero everything) at Heathrow. Now try doing that with a proper one.

PC simulators are a bit of fun but what staggers me is how many complete novices who've never even sat in a C152 seem to fire these things up and fly over the place. How do they know how to use the radio navigation instruments even if they let the autopilot manage the flying?

I suspect that we professionally trained pilots are just the lucky ones rather than the ablest. Pick half a dozen Joe Publics with reasonable O levels and you could most likely have them P2-ing a Concorde in no time at all.

My Fair Pilot...

ps I suspect MSFS is quite good if you have a 600,000 trillahertz pc

[a_random]

Mmmmm. FS98 is fun, and useful for a few reminders, and I bought it intending to practice holds and other procedural work for my IR. I think it will be handy. I can just about fly the fixed wing types, but certainly no better than ground-bound friends and I can't even get the Jetranger off the deck safely, let alone hover or land the #@*&*£ (for the record I can fly a real rotary).

And twistedenginestarter - who needs Radionav? We're talking early-stage, VFR flying here, and I suspect PPL(Sim) holders will tend to be overreliant on aids when they hop in the real thing, as visual features are scarce and unreliable on FS98, and few nerds have 1/4 mill charts handy ;).

[Bandits9Oclock]

WHAT A SAD W----R!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ex NAV]

Even as a back seater, I was not THIS SAD!!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

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Man is not lost - just unsure of his position

[twistedenginestarter]

Microsoft are rumoured to be introducing a simulator for.... trains (Flying Scotsman, Bullet etc).

That'll lose some of them...

(Oh no... I've just had a funny feeling that I might buy it)

[BigJETS]

One quick question....Does anyone ever watch those home improvement shows on TV. Dont you wonder how they do all that? Anyone try to dabble in a bit of woodworking but give up, sit in front of the tube and watch "This Old House" reruns? Just wondered.

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Rotate, Please! airliner/in-flight photo site (http://members.tripod.com/bigjets/flightline/)

[jodok]

Well, they made astronauts out of common chimpanzees, by the sole means of wooden mock-ups, electrical shocks as a punishment and bananas as a reward. After all, this creatures managed to succesfully maneuvre the same ship, Alan Shepard shortly after gained worldwide fame for. He was trained in resembling equipment, but typalwise he had a much shorter way to go. If simulation can accomplish this, it surely can do more than maintain a job proficiency for an already capable individual. If a simulation is good for one thing, it is to get the primitivism out of one's inherited habitual burdens at lesser costs and lesser risks. The mentioned MS software simply is somehow this wooden mock-up again and so most of the professional concerns mentioned absolutely sound right. The question remaining is, whether the realities of flying or the technology of its virtual reproduction are changing faster. I presume, the latter will apply. The ones more interested should read B.F. Skinner's memorable thesis on "Operant Conditioning" and the 13hrs+ sim guy should either get engaged or wait for MS Real Life Simulator to cover his other needs, provided there are any.

[This message has been edited by jodok (edited 21 August 2000).]

[vc10]

Dear all,
As a very junior but not very young Lear co-pilot,here is an observation for you sim experts! sat in your in front of your computer you do not have have foreign atc giving you directs to places you cannot understand, when your clearance is changed you cannot press 'p' while you work it out, also there isn't an off option if the weather is dog **** and you don't like the look of it! However I do use ms 98 to practice, and Mr guvenor if your still following this thread the Lear sim lands like the real thing:- go to the introductory flight and the instructor gives you an N1 for the approach hold it to 50' smoothly back on the power lever and the a/c lands itself DO not flair.

[Dodgy One]

OK - have to relate the story. Child of a friend asked me to look at his MSFS (don't know which model) as he had loaded the HKG scenery package.
Had a go in the Learjet. Max angle climbout through LaiYuMun Gap to 7000', chopped throttles, rolled inverted and pulled through with speedbrakes and then took gear and flaps and landed on 31. He was impressed - I was amazed at the authority of the A/P!

Proceeded to crash everytime since then. Bought and have since deleted the rubbish programme.

[dingducky]

i have tried flying flight sim 98 and crashed every time http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif
but then i probably shouldn't have been trying to barrel roll a 737 over hong kong :)

[This message has been edited by dingducky (edited 22 August 2000).]

[Smoketrails]

vc10,

Welcome to the club, wel FS98 Learjet club anyway(I don't fly the real thing).

[Rob Young]

Now you "real" pilots don't really want to come across as a bunch of totally arrogant, elitist, prejudiced, patronising snobs do you?

Well most of you certainly seem that way. The fact is there are simulators which are a travesty of what it "feels" like and other sims which go to great lengths to get reasonably close, given that you have a tiny joystick and a 15 inch monitor.

I have worked for over a year (with working pro pilots) to get fly version 1 to emulate the feel of GA and corporate aircraft as near as we can get given the limitations, and yes, real world pilots have actually complimented us on our efforts.

Of course it's easy to dismiss this endeavour as the work of sad anoracks - all very well for those lucky enough to fly for a living. But for the rest of us, for whom flying has become a nightmare of form filling, ludicrous medicals, insane expense, and an activity now only open to the privileged, simulators are a good way of at least absorbing the flavour of something "real" pilots take for granted.

Just be bloody grateful you actually get paid to do it. Some of us have two options: Go gliding or fly simulators. We don't need your patronising tone, thank you!!

Rob Young

[mig21bis]

He is just another frustrate pilot.

PD: He need a Girl.

[kabz]

You guys that denigrate PC sims should stop and think for a moment. What are YOU doing to promote aviation ?

You should be encouraging anything to do with the wonderful experience that is flying a plane. I know that many real-life pilots fly flight sims and contribute to the simming community.

Get a life yourself.
Jonathan (Student Power / Glider Pilot)

[excrewingbod]

Folks don't get too wound up. There are many professional pilots who are 'closet' sim users, they are just too afraid to admit it ;)

But it is sad to see some so-called 'professional' pilots had to resort to 'insulting' aviation hobbyists.

Each to their own, as they say.

[tony draper]

Give a good quality combat sim like Falcon 4 or Flanker 2.5 a try, many hours of harmless engrossing entertainment to be had.
Don't know why this subject should cause such
emotion outbursts among the pilots.
Fanatics exist in any pastime or hobby,they go to far, their lives are taken over by their sport,look at golf. :)

[Frederic]

All, although I am a "real" airline pilot in my "real" life, I have spend the last 12 years expanding my experience on PC based flight sims. And yes, there are so many things I have learnt from real flying that I wouldn't have learnt from a flight sim. But there are about twice as many things I learned from flying sims. Their versatility and realism are still a great help to improve my flying skills. Recently I bought X-Plane, a flight sim that uses actual aerodynamic laws and blade element method to calculate the aircraft behaviour.It also alows you to change a lot of aircraft caracteristics. This sim has given me a much deeper understanding of aerodynamics. Flying in a regional airliner, I often see peoples skills and understanding of principles of flight deteriorate as they fly longer. If more pilots would open their minds and understand the benefits flight sims could give us, I think the whole aviation comunity would gain from that. If you stop looking at fs's as a toy, and start to use them as a tool to improve your skills and understanding, you'll know what I mean...

[Frederic]

All, although I am a "real" airline pilot in my "real" life, I have spend the last 12 years expanding my experience on PC based flight sims. And yes, there are so many things I have learnt from real flying that I wouldn't have learnt from a flight sim. But there are about twice as many things I learned from flying sims. Their versatility and realism are still a great help to improve my flying skills. Recently I bought X-Plane, a flight sim that uses actual aerodynamic laws and blade element method to calculate the aircraft behaviour.It also alows you to change a lot of aircraft caracteristics. This sim has given me a much deeper understanding of aerodynamics. Flying in a regional airliner, I often see peoples skills and understanding of principles of flight deteriorate as they fly longer. If more pilots would open their minds and understand the benefits flight sims could give us, I think the whole aviation comunity would gain from that. If you stop looking at fs's as a toy, and start to use them as a tool to improve your skills and understanding, you'll know what I mean...

[Golden Monkey]

Just to add my thruppence-worth.

I've a PPL with about 110 hours, and am also a fan of GA simming. I think there's definitely a place for the sim as a tool (primarily in instrument work) toward training.

I can't say for definite whether flying Navaids on FS saved me money during my training, but it definitely helped. Having some knowledge of how things "work" saves precious time in the air and allows you to focus on how these things are applied in the real world. Certainly several hours spent bumbling about on FS is more cost effective than flying backwards and forwards over a VOR beacon in a Cessna trying to understand which way the needle should be pointing.

While simming is clearly no substitute for the real thing, I think it can make your time in the air more focused and enjoyable.

[BEagle]

Certain STDs do have their uses. (Synthetic Training Devices, I mean!). Expensive full-motion simulators are used for the majority of flight training on large aircraft and PC-based emulators can be very useful for understanding how instruments etc. respond in procedural flying and for practising FMS interactivity.

The full-motion simulators which I instruct upon are no longer realistic of the aircraft they purport to represent and my first flight in the real aircraft with new students is invariably taken up with teaching the differences in handling (much heavier in roll and a totally different stick force gradient in pitch), plus the vastly different avionic fit. Although it is quite fun to beat up the aerodrome at 20 ft and 350KIAS in the 'box' now and again!

Things like MS Flight Simulator give an unrealistic idea of HOW to fly an aircraft, but they do at least give their players (not 'pilots') an idea of WHAT the instruments represent as aircraft attitude and instrument indications can be seen at the same time. They are virtually useless for anything else - but understanding the progress of, for example, an NDB join, hold and let down by being able to watch both flight path and instrument response simultaneously is a most worthwhile training aid. Anything more is just an expensive substitute for the boyhood game of sitting on an old chair with a broomstick pretending to be a fighter pilot!!

[Steepclimb]

Well this thread has resurrected hasn't it? I agree with the comments some have made about the arrogance of certain pilots here. I think it's misplaced, these sims can only encourage people to take up flying. I wish I had it when I started flying, I'm sure it would have saved me money.
Having said that I heard a cautionary tale of an Instructor who was caught out by a member of the Microsoft generation. It was a familiarisation flight, a young guy who was obviously keen, he had all the terminology off pat and talked the talk. So much so, that the Instructor was lulled into letting his guard drop a bit, so when the student asked to follow through on the controls during take off, he agreed.
All went well until rotation when the guy panicked and shouted 'No no' and pushed the yoke forward. The Instructor quickly landed back on, but the aircraft swerved off the runway into a large standing pool of water. There was no damage but the Instructor got his socks wet when he stepped out the aeroplane into water up to his ankles.
Quite simply in spite of his extensive 'experience' flying the sim, the sensation of actually leaving the ground was frightening to him and he panicked. You can't simulate that. Of course thats why we fly, to experience that sensation. Not everyone enjoys it.
To cap it all, after recovering his composure the guy wandered back to the office to enquire about booking another flight. The Instructors comments were not recorded!

However, most people are more sensible than that, but there's always someone who thinks it'll be the same in real life as on a PC in the bedroom.

[scroggs]

I think MSFS2K is fun, especially with some of the shareware extras now available, and as long as it's running on a serious PC. CFS2 is even better (die you nasty enemy chap, you, etc....), and both give you the opportunity to 'fly' in parts of the world you might not otherwise visit. I find the sheer scale of the progaramming involved in such sims incredible, especially at $30 or so.
(I fly 747s in my day job)

[This message has been edited by scroggs (edited 29 May 2001).]

[mwashi]

MSFS2K is good for practicing instrument flying and approaches.

[GristyEZY117]

Well i tell you what, I am 16 and have to resort to this way to enjoy flying. Flight Simultor is very good and i fly for a Virtual Airline, but don't spend upto as much as 4hours flying 1 flight, and even then when im cruising i go and do something! It is fun, but that amount of time stuck in front of the machine is unbelievable...can you get back to me on how many hours he has because im sure it's pretty high
Cheers... :)