Do we still need flight engineers?

[bintoo]

I thought i would start a topic on the need for flight engineers.. .Is anybody of the opinion that disasters such as the swissair crash sr111 could have been avoided if the 2 crew concentrated on flying the md11 while the engineer could have hacked away panels,to locate the fire.. .Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes,and not know how systems operate,or system integration,ie,a pilot will switch of a hydrualic pump if the light flashes at him,while a flight engineer will switch to the mcdu page to see if the pump is still producing 3000psi,monitor it and perhaps let it run on.

[fantom]

unless you are able to permit only those us who have flown with FEs to reply,you are opening a can of worms.of course we loved to have them there. my aircraft has no FE but I wish I had the luxury of one.. .your remark about pilots not being trained to understand systems is a bit severe though... .anyway,the best thing about FEs is that if you come down in the desert,you can eat them. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[freightdoggy dog]

Tasty Geezer you are my Hero! P.S all the best F/Es come from Southend.

[neil armstrong]

F/E are great,they help out with the checks ,situation awareness and of course making the coffie,and lets not forget the walkaround on a rainy day !!. .I have done the single and two crew and problably have to go back to two crew soon but i'm glad to have the "old" guy behind me.. .But on the other hand in my view a Flight Engineer should come with a supply of anti gas pill's !! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Neil

[fergineer]

Don't know what you mean Neil. Are you insinuating that us FE's suffer flatulance !!!!!!!But thanks anyway for the support. :) :)

[Semaphore Sam]

I started flying in the 60's with F/E's & Nav's; loved it! Nav's were engineered out with INS, FMC, GPS, etc. Sad to see them go! I became an F/E in the 70's when I went from the military to my airline job; the F/E has also been engineered out. Sorry to see F/E's go! BUT... Economics being what it is, that's life. I also know railroads; union contracts kept firemen onboard well after their useful life had gone; they didn't go and, due to their presence & other uneconomic practices, the railroads DIED!

Gentlemen & Gentleladies: I honor & respect the Engineer, & the Nav, & the Radio Operator (& the 2nd engineer, to crawl out into the wing when oil had to be added in flight & to scan during engine start). I have wonderful memories & stories of many of these people, and examples of their invaluable presence when the s**t hit the fan, on the older aircraft. However, for better or worse, with the new aircraft, it's a new, and in many ways sadder, day.

[Russ Condon]

Neil. I know you would not want to be at a party without one!! Except last week!. .Although many of us are being phased (3 of course) out. I for one do not or am not financially able to move to the right hand seat. However the more that are able to move will, hopefully, enable me and a few of the hard core to remain as the "Back seat driver" for many happy times to come.

So how do you transfer the drive to the wheels on the ground??

[Dagger Dirk]

I doubt that they will be able to field the A380 without a technical (non-pilot) member of the Technical Flight Crew. Might even go so far as to say it might be irresponsible to do so.

Most pilots who've flown with professional F.E.'s have an abiding recollection of a much safer operation - for a myriad of unrelated reasons.

[Hand Solo]

747 I take it you don't really know many pilots based on that rather stupid initial posting

Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes,and not know how systems operate,or system integration,ie,a pilot will switch of a hydrualic pump if the light flashes at him,while a flight engineer will switch to the mcdu page to see if the pump is still producing 3000psi,monitor it and perhaps let it run on.

Yeah, and if the ECAM tells me to jump off a cliff I'll do that as well. We're trained to fly the aircraft AND know how the systems operate. I doubt an FE would have changed the outcome of SR111, you can't just let someone rip off panels and shut down electrics which affect the controlability of the aircraft. On a modern glass cockpit aircraft there's little if anything that an FE could achieve in the flight deck that the flight crew couldn't. He'd only have access to the same buttons and switches as we would, so unless he wants to climb out on the wing and fix the engine then he'd just be along for the ride.

[flapsforty]

Hand Solo, you know that biblical proverb about eyes and beams? . .After your "quality" posts on the cabin crew forum, I'd be a bit more careful about accusing other people of making stupid posts if I were you!. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[robinoflotusland]

Hand Solo

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots........

[neil armstrong]

Hand Solo,. .How about one pilot fly's the aircraft and there are two guy's to go through the checklist and take care of the problem.. .A lot less stressfull than in a two men crew(even that modern a/c with "working"autopilots help a lot too).. .Believe me the F/E's technical knowledge is a LOT better than that of the Pilots (overall),and is well worth the beers you have to buy him in the hotel.

Neil

[LeadSled]

All, . .And with the F/E goes the "engineer's bar", always the coldest and cheapest beer in any town, even if the resident ladies tended to be a tad scruffie.. .Tootle pip!!

[Hogg]

cant let this slip by,

Firstly Semophore Sam .... i like ure style man it impresses me.... like 2 be on ure crew honest...cool <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> guy. .I hope for a 3 crew airplane after my B727F is gone.

Arni, believe me i personally know Neil and he does buy his fair share of drinks , before he goes ppruning.... but Neil like me are skippers on 727F and dont really want to go back to 2 crew if we can help or change it.......mmmmmmmm think 757 coming Neil??

. .Handsolo...jesus man, i think if an F/E was aboard the SR aircraft all they would be talking and argueing about would be an "overweight landing", Have u ever seen the holes that a F/E can pull you out of?? if not....go try it&gt; ok dude.

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>

[Capt Pit Bull]

2 crew is fine for normal operation. But get a tricky emergency and a complex checklist and you suddenly wish for a third crew member.

1 to pole the aircraft.. .1 to handle the systems and checklists.. .1 to communicate, with ATC and Cabin.

Trying to handle the checklist and the radio can be a mare, every call interupts the checklist.

If the automatics are available, I prefer to hand off the radio and flying to my colleague.

If there is a third pilot on board, even if not on the same fleet, I brief them to be prepared to take over the radio in the event of a major emergency. Might as well make the jumpseater earn their place!

So, in an emergency I'd love to be able to teleport a third crew member on board, pilot or F/E, either would be great.

Would a third crewmember be good? Yes.. .DO we still need flight engineers? Not as such.

CPB

[Hogg]

But, Have you ever operated with Proffessional F/Es?? ie required by law?

Its nice for you to think of them as a 3rd man! but until people op with them u dont realise their importance.......like op a 737 without an F/o

Capt!! Pitbull , think uve missed the point <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>

[FE Hoppy]

Hand solo,. .About six years ago whilst the Pilots carried out a diversion I tore the flightdeck apart. We were all on oxy and about an hour away from the nearest airfield. After about 15 mins of very low vis ie the pilots could not see the instrements without peering forward through the smoke. I found the burning windshield heat controler and unplugged it. The smoke cleared, we downgraded the emergency and eventually landed safely. . .I don't think the same would have happened on a two man flightdeck do you??

[polzin]

FE Hopey and Fergi.....

It does help if the FE can play the guitar and sing on the layovers. Then they may be considered indispensible.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[pontius's pa]

First of all, you are all being very unkind to Hand Solo. He should be pitied, not chastised. Lets all send him a birthday card on his 21st birthday. Inexperience should be treated with sympathy, not disdain.

To get to the point, as an earlier post mentioned, F/Es are invaluable when the outside check, walkaround, call it what it you will, has to be carried out on a dark and very rainy night.. .And it is a special treat when you have hidden his umbrella.

It is a shame that a lot of fun has gone out of it now he has to wear those fetching luminous jackets, so he is no longer invisible to tractor drivers, refuellers and caterers et al

[Capt Pit Bull]

Hogg

To expand. My actual viewpoint is that pilots could do with more technical training, and a F/E is familiar with every aspect of the operation except (maybe) the handling, which is the easy bit IMHO.

When you talk about needing flight engineers, it seems to me you are more talking about the flight engineers station, rather than the person. Myself, I'd rather give them some stick time and then call us all pilots. Or Flight Deck Managers. Or whatever PC term is de rigeur.

. .Hand Solo

Regarding climbing out of the aircraft to fix a problem, I direct you to the case of <a href="http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=626" target="_blank">Jackson VC</a>

CPB

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]</p>

[Cornish Jack]

Capt P B. .I think that Jackson VC was NOT a F/E (a rather new branch at that time), but a member of the longest operating aviation crew branch - Radio Operators... probably a W.Op/AG or, maybe, a Signaller.. .As regards third crew - certainly, but, as has been mooted here occasionally in the past, have a non-flying Aircraft Commander - much the safest option but neither politically nor professionally acceptable.... pity.

[fergineer]

Cornish Jack. I have in front of me the Citation from the London Gazette and believe me Norman Jackson was a Flight Engineer. I was also a Flight Engineer in the RAF and the citation was transferred from St Athen to Finningley in 1982 when the Flight Engineers school was transferred. We as a branch greatly respect Norman and what he did, so you were wrong in your assumption.

[Hand Solo]

Well an interesting aside about Sgt Jackson, any modern day FEs volunteering to perform the same role?

Developing a point made previously on this thread, a third flight crew member would undoubtedly be useful in some emergency situations in terms of workload management. This, however, does not have to be an FE and it could be argued that perhaps a third pilot is best suited so as to maintain an overall watch on all aspects of the operation whilst the handling crew attempt to resolve the problem. Perhaps an FE would have made a difference on SR111, but practicality suggests he'd have a hard time isolating the fire if the source really was hard wired to the main busses. I think its presumptious to say that the only thing they would have been discussing was an overweight landing. With hindsight that would have been a better course of action, but just because a two man crew were unsuccesful in resolving the problem doesn't mean a three man crew is guaranteed to fair better. There were still plenty of accidents when three man crews were the norm.

It goes without saying that the FE performs a vital role in three crew aircraft , which are largely those that don't have high degrees of automation. I'm sure they're great company downroute as well. However this does not translate to them having a vital role in a highly automated two man aircraft. He may be able to pop circuit breakers quicker than anyone, but whats he going to do for the 99.9% of the time that the aircraft flies without incident? I also stand by my initial comment that suggesting that our modus operandi is "ECAM say, pilot do" without any thought or confirmation is rather stupid. Just because an engineer knows more about the nuts and bolts of the system doesn't mean the pilots are pig ignorant.

Pontius I look forward to your 21st birthday card. Don't let me down like Santa did.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Cornish Jack.

Follow the link on my earlier post and you will find the citation. F/E he was.

CPB

[dewort]

I joined my outfit as an F/E. Or should I say Pilot Engineer, not as a professional F/E, so I know my level of expertise was no greater than those who faced forward, insofar as AC systems were concerned. What was patently obvious tho' was the advantage that that extra pair of eyes, ears and hands conferred upon the operation.. .Now that I have ascended to the dizzying hieghts of skipperdom, I dont miss the "panel" per se, but I could seriously use that extra pair of eyes etc. back, in any form.

Carnival Beas'

[Cornish Jack]

Capt P B and Fergineer. .Apologies, I stand corrected <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> . Was relying on a memory from fifty years ago, so not surprising. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . .Re. the third crew member argument, however, the undoubted technical expertise of the F/E has become less relevant in aircraft systems of the 'black box' variety. . .What could be of considerable value, however, is a "Flight Deck Manager" (for want of a better term)- someone who is not actively engaged in flying the aircraft or monitoring the systems but who has the full overview of the situation and the authority to make operational decisions ( a la maritime Captains). For 99% of the time that is an unnecessary luxury and would, no doubt, promote crew friction, not to mention apoplexy amongst the 'bean-counters' Ergo.... it isn't going to happen. I say again, pity <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Capt Pit Bull]

Don't they call that the CSD? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

CPB

[MaximumPete]

I may be wrong but I seem to remember the master plan for operating the Vickers Vanguard when it was introduced into BEA was for teo first officers to sit in the pilot seats while Sir sat on the third seat between them making command decisions.

MP

[start sequence 312]

Hey folks, this topic started asking about SR111 tragedy, so: What could an F/E have made beside reading and following instructions on MD11 FCOM volume 1, like any other trained MD11 pilot, to avoid that crash? Until now authorities have not released any final report but everybody knows that the flight deck had severe smoke, in total or almost darkness and likely with some fire spots in the cabin and FWD galley. Ok, MD11 has 3 long troubleshooting pages to find the unknown origin of smoke/fumes of electrical or A/C, but unfortunately I don’t feel that a third member could have avoided the tragic ending. . .Anyway I believe that an additional crew member is very important and helpful but in modern airplanes and long haul flights the third (or fourth member) can be perfectly one more (or two) supplemental pilot, to perform any emergency duty, if necessary. I’m sure F/E’s usually have a deep knowledge about airplane systems but it’s usual to find a lot of guys without any previous piloting experience as well. So, let’s balance it and find what is really better for a modern aviation environment. . .By the way, as I could read in this tread some guys supposedly support a third crew member, but I think they are in fact looking for a maid to prepare their meal, check the airplane during rainny and cold days, say some jokes, etc, instead of one more man (or woman) to improve aviation safety.

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: start sequence 312 ]</p>

[411A]

....or, in the case of SR111, to convince the guys behind the poles to land NOW, never mind overweight.. .One very old captain told me many years ago...always be nice to the flight engineer BECAUSE he is closest to the fire axe.. .Have not flown a public transport jet without one, and do not intend to start now.

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,. .As for that SR111, I am convinced that they would have gotten a DC10 (MD11), on the ground in time to get out, if only it had been a DC10!. .Also, somebody mentioned earlier that FEs were now really not needed in these current high-tech, highly automated aircraft, with ECAM to reveal the next most (preprogrammed) step to take, that's IF the thing has been programmed to sort the problem you have, but I think he missed the point, as I saw it, with a professional FE, we don't need the aircraft to be anywhere near as automated, and the automated thinking that goes with it, that's the problem, look at that QF 744 that arrived at BKK in the golfcourse,(an FE would have been mentioning, rather loudly, that he had just cancelled both the auto-brakes and the auto-spoilers with that initial attempt to go around!), look at that A330 that landed deadstick in the middle of the Atlantic, wasn't he lucky he found that airfield JUST in time!. .An example of ECAM not knowing, and leading the crew astray, an FE would have compared the remaining fuel with the quantity used, and seen that it didn't tally, something that they keep a running tally with on every flight!. .And there are numerous events that are remaining just reports in company safety reports, rather than something that developed into a major emergency, because the FE was there to point it out, in varying amounts of forcefulness!. .I know in my company, they really can't do without them, judging on their past performance!. . . .I even get nervous on those automated commuter trains, like the ones in KL, and I'm still on the ground, I DON'T LIKE AUTOMATION OF THIS DEGREE - IT HAS NO BRAINS/COMMONSENSE!. .Bring back the FE!!

[BenThere]

The value of a knowledgable, attentive, conscientious F/E is incalculable. But the major benefit so far overlooked is that, on a trip, if one crewmember is a jerk, you can hang with the other one.