MDA changed to DA

[Non-PC Plod]

Looking at the latest Jeppesen charts for LIRF, they have replaced MDAs with DAs on the non-precision approaches (although the actual altitudes are still the same.)
Does this mean that flying this approach, you have to make a land/go-around decision when reaching the minimum, instead of continuing to the MAPt? In which case, why is there still a MAPt? If not, why are they caling it DA?
Confused......?? Help!

[Boxshifter]

I checked my Jeppesen set for LIRF (Fiumicino). I only find DA for the RNAV approach to RWY 25 when using LNAV/VNAV with GPS or DME/DME or when using LNAV with GPS. Using LNAV wit DME/DME still is a MDA as for all the non precision approaches at LIRF.

The normal airliner way to fly NPA nowadays is using a continous descent approach (CDA). The CDA is flown like an ILS using the on board equipment. And yes you make the decision at the DA like for an ILS approach.

If you have a look at the RNAV approach chart for LIRF you will see that you reach the DA before the MAPt.

[potkettleblack]

Check the jeppy chart notams as well and see what they say. A while ago our company notams had revised minima for a continental airport. What had us stumped was that it was using the term OCA and referring it to the Cat 1 ILS whereas we were trying to work out if they really meant MDA(H). A check of the jeppy chart notams showed that the MDA had in fact risen slightly and jeppy used the correct phraseology and didn't refer at all to OCA. In reality it was a non issue as it was VMC and my vote was for entering the higher minima to be on the safe side in anycase. I think the company notams we had just uplifted the local AIP or whatever source they come from and something got lost in translation.

[Non-PC Plod]

I couldnt find anything on the NOTAMs, but it affects various approaches. For instance Locator 16R. It still has an MDA for a circling approach, but now has a DA for straight-in landing.
Boxshifter - on the chart 12-1 dated 12 Feb for RNAV 25, it now has a DA for DME/DME on both LNAV/VNAV and on LNAV only. MDA is only for circle-to-land approaches.

[Sleepybhudda]

The change of MDA to DA for non precision approach is due to the new EU-OPS 1 minima and CDFA profiles that they require(appendix new 1.430)

Jeppesen explanes how their displaying it here

http://www.jeppesen.com/download/briefbull/abb_jep_08_D.pdf


potkettleblack are you questioning what the OCA is and why its related to a CAT 1 ILS or why your company chose to mention it in their notams?

[Daysleeper]

and yes you make the decision at the DA like for an ILS approach.

Important point most if not all AOC operations will add 50 ft to the non precision approach minima as you MAY NOT descend below MDA. This is different from a precision approach where a decision can be made at minima and the aircraft descend below minima due to inertia while transitioning from the approach to the go around.

By changing the name of non-precision minima to "DA" they have confused matters somewhat
as Jepps explain

Jeppesen charted AOM do not include an add-on when current MDA(H) is replaced by DA(H). Pilots are reminded to check their operator’s Flight Operations Manual or similar documents whether they have to apply an add-on or not.

[Non-PC Plod]

Thanks a lot for helping me with that one fellas. Just one more thing - does this mandate everyone to fly a CDFA profile, or does it depend on the operator? ie, in a helicopter, can I still descend to the MDA, and continue to the missed approach fix before going around, or do I have to make a decision as soon as I get to the new decision height?

[Sleepybhudda]

At the moment EU-OPS 1 is just fixed wing (planks) but my interpritation is that when EASA OPS comes into effect it will encorporate JAR-OPS 3 into it aswell.

The Notice of Proposed amendmant for EASA ops is here
http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/NPA/NPA%202009-02C.pdf

I haven't seen that CDFA's apply to Rotary but its a big document. Your answer is in there somewhere.

[Non-PC Plod]

Trawled through it - couldnt find anything specific on approaches, but found stacks of other stuff in there which will be useful, thanks!

[Sir George Cayley]

I was taught "Decision means precision" therefore any NPA that conforms to the ICAO definition of Lateral Guidance but no Vertical Guidance must remain an MDA/H?

Baro aided GPS is still NPA and APV 1 sits uncomfortably between NPA and Precision. As EASA have yet to take over Air Ops and JAA are all but defunct I'm not sure what's changed.

Am I wrong? or am I wrong?

Sir George Cayley

[Non-PC Plod]

:{CRM afficionados will perhaps see link #1 in the error chain here. Is anyone 100% sure a) who is making the rules, and b) which ones apply and c) who exactly they apply to at the moment? It seems as clear as mud to me!

I am left with a Jeppesen plate which shows me what I should be doing if I were in a fixed-wing aircraft, in order to comply with a rule which doesnt apply to me yet, but might do if all the JAA nations agree to it. So....I guess in the meantime I can fly an approach by the old rules, but without a valid approach plate to back it up, or I can fly a continuous descent approach which I do have a plate for, although its not covered because no-one has agreed the rules yet???????

Does that cover it?:{

[Sleepybhudda]

If your fixed-wing and operate under an AOC you declare to your Authority (eg CAA in the UK) Flight Ops Inspector to follow either EU-OPS Appendix 1 to 1.430 (old) or Appendix 1 to 1.430 (new). The (new) appendix contains the changed minima and CDFA instructions for NPA's amoung other things: HUDLS EVS etc

EU-OPS 1 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:254:0001:0238:EN:PDF

There is a time limit for using the old appendix I think 2011 but not sure.

If your Private fixed wing or rotary your follow the minima the specific country has published in its AIP for the approach your flying

Rotary AOC operator just follow JAR-OPS 3 until EASA ops comes in and binds us all togeher.

Hope it makes sense

[Non-PC Plod]

It just about makes sense, but it doesnt help that the Jeppesen approach plates are all changing so they contradict what you are actually doing if you are still trying to fly the old rules. Doesnt make teaching any easier either!