Gear Down and welded. Never use park brakes. The myths continue

[Tee Emm]

Myths still abound. Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without using any aileron. Students told to never use the park brake as sometimes one wheel brake may not release when pedals pushed to disengage park brake. No mention of writing up a defect to fix the unserviceability. Students told to say "Gear down and locked" on before landing checks even though aircraft has fixed gear. This purportedly prepares them for retractable gear conversion. Based upon that theory it was noted students not taught to say "gear up and locked" as part of after take off check (in case they one day fly a retractable).

[Ex Oggie]

It makes you want to weep doesn't it. :ugh:

[L'aviateur]

Students told to say "Gear down and locked" on before landing checks even though aircraft has fixed gear. This purportedly prepares them for retractable gear conversion. Based upon that theory it was noted students not taught to say "gear up and locked" as part of after take off check (in case they one day fly a retractable).

I was taught that, and still say it to myself when flying fixed gear. :bored::ugh:

[EK4457]

Students told to say "Gear down and locked" on before landing checks even though aircraft has fixed gear.

I agree it sounds a little OTT, but I am sure it has saved more than a few FIs filling out AAIB forms after landing. Particularly the ones who will fly fixed and retractable in the same day. More of an A/C type check. Not wrong so much as a personal preference.

it was noted students not taught to say "gear up and locked" as part of after take off check (in case they one day fly a retractable).

Presumably because the gear is down?

The rest I agree is poppycock.

[draughtsman99]

Forgive the intrusion from a non pilot, please. (I dont even do microsoft sims!! )
As an engineering instructor for many years I cannot understand the rational behind teaching someone to blindly repeat "gear down and locked" in case they later transfer to a machine with retracts. When they transfer, they will no doubt be instructed in how to retract and lower the gear, then is the time to add in the "gear up/down etc".

My somewhat long winded point is that if you teach people to parrot "gear down" when they have not had to select this condition you are setting them up to do exactly the same thing even if they should have first selected gear down but did not!
I await the first report on here of wheels up landings caused by this teaching method.

Sorry again for the intrusion.

[Clare Prop]

Agree I have seen pilots flying retracts for the first time just say "Gear down" without actually doing it. That loud horn usually sorts that out.

Some myths I have come across in my years of instructing:

"I CAN'T PRODUCE A CREDIBLE REFERENCE BUT MY INSTRUCTOR TOLD ME SO IT MUST BE TRUE"

"Never use flaps in a sideslip!" (true of some small Cessnas but not every aeroplane)
"Never fly with the Manifold pressure number greater than the RPM number!" (OK...so what do we do with a turbo charged engine then??!! And why does Mr Lycoming say it's OK? What is the MAP when the engine isn't running, and therefore why isn't it being "overstressed" when parked?)
"Never put flaps down in a turn!"
"You must open your cowl flaps on final in case you decide to go around or you can overheat the engine!" (ok..so thermal shock and cracked cylinders are OK then?)
"You must turn the electric fuel pump in your Piper off at 300' AGL or you will wear it out!"
"If you have a wing drop in the stall you must give it a bootful of rudder! Never use the ailerons!" (how about get some airspeed first?!)
And the UK one "Never lean the mixture below 5000 feet!"
"Lift is explained by Bernouilli's thoerem!" :ugh:

[EladElap]

I'm sorry as an instructor albeit a SACAA instructor I must disagree about a few things here...

The students that I have taught are almost always on a CPL Multi-IR course so from an early stage we try and get them to start planning towards flying a multi engine aircraft. Therefore for the after take off checks, we get the to say under carriage - fixed... like wise on downwind we make them say under carriage is fixed. No SACAA designated examiner has EVER told me to change this after flying with any of my students.

As far as only using rudder for recovering from a stall in a 152. Again in FCL 61 in the instructors training syllabus, it clearly states the recovery from a stall. Aileron - Neutral, relax back pressure on the stick, add MCP/MCT/climb power depending on the aircraft and climb away. The same goes for the the stall entry, ailerons neutral. What I try to emphasize in the stall lesson IS the dangers of using the ailerons close to the stall. I've let the student go into a spin before as a result of picking the wing up in a 150/PA28. As an instructor you try to instill the fundimentals, and emphasize the basics so that the student can then build onto these.

Once again these are all things that I teach directly out of the Instructors syllabus as published by the SACAA.

As far as the park brake, I agree that is a load of bollocks.

[duveldrinker]

Why is it called a CHECKlist ? In my humble opinion it is a list of items that needs to be checked by confirming that all items on the list are completed, and it is not -or should not be - a poem that needs to be recited.

As already mentioned above, by learning people to always say "Gear down and locked" without first performing any action related to this item, they will most probably later always say "Gear down and locked", and yes...without performing any action related to this.

[Airbus Girl]

Yes, but if you are doing a flapless approach then would you then read the checklist but omit the word "flaps"? I don't think so. I think students should be taught to think about each item of the checklist, not just recite it. Under stress it is easy to not actually check that the checklist item has been done, I agree, but it is another link in the chain. In response to "gear" in the landing checklist, you should say/think "gear - not required this time - fixed gear", after thinking about it. If you are not actually going to check and think about each item on the checklist then you might as well bin it anyway! That is where the problem comes in. I've seen people pay lip service to check lists and get caught out.

[Pull what]

As already mentioned above, by learning people to always say "Gear down and locked" without first performing any action related to this item, they will most probably later always say "Gear down and locked", and yes...without performing any action related to this.

I am afraid you do not understand the purpose of a checklist. You complete the items and then run the checklist--belt and braces!!!!

Using a checklist needs to be taught, as do many things on the PPL! Even with single crew the checklist items should be, challenge -respond. The challenge is 'Undercarrige' the resonse is 'Not Fitted'. If you just teach recitemnet of course you will get situations as described above.

[SoundBarrier]

As mentioned it's the users use of the checklist that counts.

My experience is for the wheelie type things you land on - Undercarriage. So during the phase of flight where the checklist calls for such the call is...
Undercarriage.....FIXED
or
Undercarriage.....DOWN & Locked / UP etc..
or in some extreme circumstances
Undercarriage.....Fell off due to SB's cr@ppy landing! :}

[BEagle]

Only those relevant items fitted to the aeroplane should be included in the pre-landing checks.

For those Cessna 150 drivers who witter on about "Landing gear.....fixed", do you also mention the prop pitch setting, speedbrakes, slats and wingtip floats?

In any case, surely the correct pre-landing checks are as per the aeroplane's POH?

[DFC]

The problem is not the checking of gear position etc.

The problem is that students are being told that they are completing a "checklist" when they are not - they are completing a "do list" and not checking that it is done!!

Students need to be taught that actions required to configure that aircraft in preparation for landing. Having completed the required actions then at an appropriate stage they complete the pre-landing checklist.

The reason why many students when flying their retractable type recite "undercarriage down and locked" and then either move the lever and move on to the next list item or do nothing more or sit and wait for 3 greens depending on the day is that from day one the actions required to configure that aircraft for landing and the pre-landing checklist are welded into one rushed bit of the circuit pattern.

It makes me cringe when the student / candidate flying their twin flies to the start of downwind at 120Kt+ and then rushes to close throttles lower gear make a radio call, complete a checklist all according to the school ops book to be completed abeam the upwind threshold!

Why not lower the gear using the LOI - Limitation checked, Operation checked and Indication checked. Then stabilise the speed at a reasonable speed for the circuit say 100Kt then perhaps select the first stage of flap and when all that is done have time to lookout before joining downwind and making the required radio call.

Having made the call then there is plenty of time to yes! - do the checklist and actually check that all the required items have been completed.

Sadly, this rushing often continues with them into their career and I have seen people in the sim with the same mentality - rush rush rush.

If we are not on fire and we are not running out of fuel then why can we not take out time, plan ahead and avoid the situation where 10 actions have to be completed at once plus a radio call and a checklist.

Students should have in their mind that I intend to completed the pre-landing checklist at "x" point. Logic dictates that the aircraft has to be configured before that point and the point ate which the process is started depends on the speed of the aircraft and the time taken to configure - both of which the student should be aware of.

Regards,

DFC

[Big Pistons Forever]

Re the use of the park brake in light aircraft. At the risk of being pedantic I think the blanket assumption earlier posters made that the common advice not to use the park brake is bollocks is equally misguided. All park brakes are not created equal. Whether or not to use the park break should be predicated on actually understanding how it works. I never use the park brake on light Cessna's and usually use it on light Pipers. The reason is the Cessna Micky Mouse system with that Silly little knob and cable assembly is a poor design which often fails to fully hold the brakes on and/or properly release.
The Piper system with the centre brake latch is direct acting and pretty much fool proof. Other aircraft have a variety of good and bad systems.

There are also other considerations to park brake use such as the potential damage done if the park brake is applied with the brakes still hot and/or in below freezing temperatures.

So TEE EEM, rather than your the back handed slag at Flying Schools how about explaining how you do, and more importantly why, you do things. That way folks perusing this thread could make an informed opinion.

DFC. Could not agree more. It is unfortunate that there seems to be a poor understanding of the difference between "check list" and "do list". Personally I attribute this to a common flight school tendancy to use the check list as an instructional tool rather than for its intended purpose of ensuring critical to flight safety checks/actions are accomplished. An Ottawa based club I recently rented from had a C 150 checklist significantly longer than then the Douglass DC 6 I used to fly :rolleyes: . It was a mess with actions seeming place in a random order, actions repeated up to 5 times and all sorts of extraneous bumbf. All the checklists I use are short and based on a consistant repeated flow around the cockpit.

[Pull what]

It was a mess with actions seeming place in a random order, actions repeated up to 5 times and all sorts of extraneous bumbf. All the checklists I use are short and based on a consistant repeated flow around the cockpit.Student pilots need checklists that reflect the fact that they are learning to fly so obviously they are going to be a little longer than a checklist used by an experienced pilot. A checklist should be established by the operator based on the operation. However 'logical flow' is just as important as mentioned above

[Pugilistic Animus]

Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without

if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten

Not a myth necessarily:=

READ the AFM/POH!!!

PA

[enq]

Morning all,

I was taught to call "Undercarriage fixed down" as part of the checklist & like many on this thread see no rational reason for this to be taught to the general flying community without reference to type - it is at best completely unnecessary & at worst a way of "learning" a checklist item response without reference to the reality of the situation.

My assumption is that I was taught it purely so the mnemonic for the checklist started with a puerile and therefore easy to remember word;

Brakes off
Undercarriage fixed down
Mixture set to rich

I suppose, on reflection, the options were either an easy to remember general purpose checklist that has some redundant items on it or a type specific checklist that you may have to scrabble around on the floor to retrieve during the downwind leg.

Regards all, enq.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Don't forget the F for correct fuel tank/both selected.

[enq]

Admittedly the mnemonic approach started to break down when taking into account all the other items in the list but by then I find I'm into the "rhythm" of the chant.

I suppose the practice of touching the instrument, indicator or control being checked could sort out the rote approach to the non applicable items on the list.

[Jumbo Driver]

I suppose the practice of touching the instrument, indicator or control being checked could sort out the rote approach to the non applicable items on the list.

No! No! No! :=

Fingerprints on instrument glasses, solely because of the rote or mechanical approach, is very unprofessional ...

Why not learn and digest the reason why items are completed and then you will be able to think your way logically through the appropriate checks - you will find your airmanship will benefit enormously. You should only touch an item if you are going to change it.


JD
:)

[Pull what]

You should only touch an item if you are going to change it.

Would you like to meet my wife?

[foxmoth]

Quote:
Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten

Not a myth necessarily

READ the AFM/POH!!!

PA

The Myth is not that you do not pick up the wing [I]in a stall[I] with Ailerons, but that you DO pick it up with rudder, the point here is that you do not pick the wing up while the wing is stalled, you prevent further wing drop with rudder (note - not picking the wing up, just stopping more drop), then recover from the stall and only then roll the wings level using aileron!:ok:

[Munnyspinner]

Sound advice there about the wing drop. It is a fine distinction between preventing further wing drop and 'picking the wing up' i.e. trying to get to wings level using the rudder. I remember my instructor using the latter phrase but meaning the former ( I asked!)

Re the U/c checks I learned on a C150 and initially followed U with 'check undercarriage' which promted a look at the Left wheel out the window and a look across to the FI asking him to check his side. Later on a 152 flying solo I had to stop using the U 'undercarriage fixed and locked' from the FTO checklist and revert to a visual check after I saw a Jetstream attempt a wheels up. I realised that unless you will never fly a retractable that the U has to be a positive check of something rather than a simple confirmation that the gear is fixed down and locked - becuase you usually fly a fixed gear.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Excellent thread - just wanted to add that in most of the non-aerobatic [non-spin approved traing airplanes] the best way to prevent a spin is to teach the students to use the rudder to keep the ball centered [ or yawstring]... many CFI's are hesitant about stalls from banked attitudes, but if you are not side slipping you will most likely avoid the spin regime,...in the case of a stall from a banked attitude--- keep the ailerons neutral--- i.e. ---lower the AOA first --then unbank---as per a regular 'spiral dive recovery' the most important thing with stall is to make instinctive the lowering of AoA while preventing a sideslip---that's how ailerons are properly used in a stall

PA

[Brian Abraham]

Re gear down IMHO it depends. If a person is to fly nothing but fixed gear the argument can well be made that its redundant, but we know how pilots love to upgrade and take on new challenges. In 1957 as a 14 year old a local pilot took pity on this airport brat and would give a bit of stick time in an Auster as encouragement. One thing he did was make me learn the pre take off checks, which at this ripe old age is still the only think I can rattle off without thinking.
Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundant, but whatever GA cockpit I was in that was the checklist. I'm aware of an operator who has many types on line - Cessna 182, Cessna 207, Cessna 210 and Airvan. Do you think that a pilot jumping from type to type in the course of a days work flying in +40°C weather may save him/herself from embarrassment by incorporating the gear down check irrespective of what they may be flying at the time? In the circumstances I would have the pilots doing a gear check in the Airvan/182/207, the price of having a pilot jump into a 210 and do this would make you weep.
K4QHpVXtxI
The above video - There was a snow storm approaching in about an hour and we were doing a check ride. Because of possible ice, we had been flying with the gear down the entire time. We started doing touch and goes after a while. Habit when you take off is to raise the gear. This is what happened. So, when we come around, they were conversing and what not and simply forgot the gear was up.

Wonder if the instructor passed the checkride himself?

Even the very best and experienced can get caught out. One nearly planted a 747 gear up on a LAX runway.

Pelican's Perch #80: Gear-Up Landing In A 747? (http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html)

[Skylark58]

Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundantSo not everything then?Landing gear? I would really question a 13 item checklist, of which 4 items don't actually apply to the aircraft. Does the Fuel item include fuel pump, despite many simple high wing aircraft not being fitted with one? Where do you stop?:confused:

[Brian Abraham]

So not everything then? Such as landing gear? So not really a universal checklist at all.
I did say pre take off checklist. Gear would be checked during pre flight. The fuel item would cover selector and contents (all aircraft have those) plus pumps if fitted.

[421dog]

A GUMP check is a memory item, not a checklist item. If a pilot follows his POH recommendations, uses his checklists, lives a clean sober life and still, on short final says to himself (with appropriate fingerprint applications) Gas, Undercarriage... He may still land in a screwed-up configuration, but he'll never hear the ugly clatter of a couple of props scoring the tarmac.

[421dog]

Oh, and by the way, the c150/152 were designed to spin (in an era when such was required). Crossing them up in the stall is a bad idea. They do not behave like Cherokees.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Quote:
Quote:
Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten

Not a myth necessarily

READ the AFM/POH!!!

PA

The Myth is not that you do not pick up the wing [i]in a stall[i] with Ailerons, but that you DO pick it up with rudder, the point here is that you do not pick the wing up while the wing is stalled, you prevent further wing drop with rudder (note - not picking the wing up, just stopping more drop), then recover from the stall and only then roll the wings level using aileron!

hmmm.

been a while since I did any primary instruction, however....

To prevent further wing drop (i.e. stop the wing drop) would require a rolling couple in the opposite direction to the wing drop, which would mean more lift on the down going wing than the upgoing wing.

Rather, IIRC, the point of rudder application is to prevent further yaw, thereby avoiding / delaying any autorotation whilst you conduct the rest of the recovery.

pb

[neilr]

Got to agree with the pitbull ...

for what its worth ... my thoughts ....

Two things are required for spin ... wing stalled and yaw - remove one or both and no spin

- Move control centrally forward until stall warning goes away (clear indication that wing no longer stalled - audible stall warning usually Vs + 5 or 10)

- Prevent further yaw with rudder

- Apply power of course to recover to Vy

If you try to "pick up a wing" with rudder the result could be a more agreesive wingdrop or spin in the opposite direction

Neil

[Big Pistons Forever]

The rudder still works when wing is stalled and therefore will correct the developing yaw of the incipient spin in all of your typical trainer/tourers. I get all of my students to set up a power off stall but rather than recover hold the stick full back (centered) and work at using the rudder to stop any yaw. The aircraft nose will bob up and down and the aircraft will try to flick to one side or the other. But aggressive use of the rudder will stop a departure into a spin indefinately. This exercise in my opinion teaches 3 good lessons.

1) controling yaw is the key to spin avoidance and should be pursued regardless of whether or not the airplane is allready stalled

2) This is one of the few exercises where full control inputs must be used. Many students appear to be reluctant to use all the available control authority to make the aircraft do what they want it to do.

3) The very high sink rates that devlop when the aircraft is stalled and therefore why you never want to delay stall recovery.

[Checkboard]

Used to teach a long time ago myself, however I also would teach the theory in the classroom ailerons increase the angle of attack and camber etc and so use of them near the stall will aggravate a wing drop.

In the air, I would do the same demonstration/exercise as above, hold the aircraft in the stall, and keep the nose straight with rudder, not aileron. I would also, however, use fairly aggressive aileron in the stall (in a PA28) to show that it was very well designed, and the ailerons did mostly remain effective throughout a normal stall.

Note that aircraft certification (CS/FAR 25.203) discusses the use of all controls up to the time of stall and for recovery.
“25.203 (a) It must be possible to produce and to correct roll and yaw by unreversed use of aileron and rudder controls, up to the time the aeroplane is stalled. … … In addition, it must be possible to promptly prevent stalling and to recover from a stall by normal use of the controls.”

“Normal use of the lateral control must produce (or correct) a roll, and normal use of the directional control must produce (or correct) a yaw in the applied direction up to the point where the airplane is considered stalled. It must be possible to prevent or recover from a stall by normal use of the controls”.
(from PEI 3721, on the Continental turboprop crash thread in R&N)

Occasionally, to prove the effect, however, I would then set up a full power climbing turn (like after take off) and bleed the speed back. With the overbanking tendency in a climbing turn, you could easily show full right aileron, with the aircraft rolling to the left as the stall took hold - and this was slow enough to patter through the process and point out the ineffective aileron. (Yes, I was a rated aerobatic instructor, no I didn't spin it, yes it was at a safe height, no it wasn't with every student.)

As I recall, the requirement for spin training was dropped in the 60s when the WW2 trainers were replaced by aircraft that weren't certified for spinning. The "recovery from an incipient spin" was introduced as a basic cover - and this exercise is what introduced the "rudder to pick up a wing" bit.

Is it possible that, as spin training is so rare now, that the general pilot population (who have never spun an aircraft) now have the impression that using the rudder near the stall is dangerous because "that's what you do to enter a spin!". This would be a complete misunderstanding of of the incipient spin training - that using the aileron to attempt to level the wing while in a stalled condition may induce a spin! "Using the rudder to pick up the wing" is not technically correct - but is as close as is now allowed to teach spin recovery. That is - it is the correct action, in the incorrect (but legally required) circumstance.

[Tinstaafl]

I don't agree with 'rudder to pick up the wing'. Rudder as necessary to prevent yaw** is my thought about the matter, even if a wing is low. After controlled flight is regained ie no longer stalled following a conventional 'pitch to reduce AoA / available power to reduce altitude loss' input, then use aileron to roll to wings level and resume normal flight.


**Even better is to keep the ball centred but not every a/c must have a balance ball and, quite frankly, I doubt most VFR pilots flying by looking out the window will even look at the ball. God knows, they probably weren't paying too much to the instruments to get into a stall in the first place.