Rest of A332's & 3's to JQ?

[Throttle_to_bottle]

Anyone know if there's any truth to what im hearing about the rest of QFs 330's getting transfered to JQ?

Word at the bus-stop is that with the 787 in-your-dreams-liner delays and the serious sh*t that QF long-haul is in, Joycie is thinking of transfering the 330-200 & 300s to jetstar so they can get into europe and mainland US earlier.

[lc_461]

I wouldnt think that ALL of the QF 330s would be going to Jokestar. AFAIK the 333s are still being heavily utilised - (NRT, SIN, HKG), as are the DOM 332s on the PER runs. I would think that with the cutback in China and India flying though there would be some spare international 332s available to be transferred from mainline though?

[Going Boeing]

T to B, you are dredging the bottom of the rumour barrell now. There are 2 mainline A332's in domestic config (which is identical to JQ config ie JQ Star Class is domestic business class seats) which are probably going to be given to JQ. The other 4 mainline A332's and all 10 A333's have mainline international configurations and thus would require an expensive conversion to the JQ configuration.

However, it's possible that Joyce may have finally woken up to what a lot of contributors on PPRuNe have been saying for a long time - Why not leave Jetstar as a pure Airbus operator & thus benefit from the CCQ savings? The A332's have the range to operate the routes that Jetstar international want to operate (ie SIN-FCO, SIN-ATH etc) so it would make sense to operate a fleet of A320's & A330's. The rumours to the effect that Joyce wants to cancel the first 15 B787's (the -8 variant) would confirm that this may be what Joyce wants to do. It would save a lot of retraining.

[Throttle_to_bottle]

Bottles, barrells - I like em all mate!

That makes sense - transfer the 332s to JQ to do what they need to do now, cancel the dash-8s, and then take the dash 9's that QF realy wanted in the first place (assuming they're built).

No doubt what my source heard was your 'sensible' version after it was suitably filtered through the chinese whisper system.

[ANstar]

I would think that with the cutback in China and India flying though there would be some spare international 332s available to be transferred from mainline though?


Well the routes that the 332 was operating on ie SYD-BOM, SYD-PEK are no more.

plus they have cut back some MEL-NRT/HKG & SYD-HKG flying also. I've seen a the IN 332's doing a fair few SYD-PER's recently.

Makes sense for them to go to JQ. Can't be that exepnsive to pull out the seats and replace them with the millenium seating.

Means a reduction in mainline capacity and JQ can grow without the extra $$ burden of the pipedreamliners....

[QFinsider]

of course, without J* mainline would not exist...

Gimme a break..

[Capt Kremin]

There are around 350 QF pilots flying on the A330 now. With bottom up redundancy, the 767 already in surplus, where exactly are you going to put these people?
Don't tell me Jetstar or the 787-900, which is still years away from delivery.

[Throttle_to_bottle]

to mangle a famous quote by Rod Eddington, Jetstar is a great business but a sh*t airline.

Actually its not all that sh*t - i fly em quite a bit and compared to the european LCCs they do a pretty good job. If nothing goes wrong - delays, wx etc - they get you there in pretty good order with pretty good flighties and svc. Its another story when the brown stuff hits the fan however.

But from a business perspective its a pretty winning formula - give it to em cheap and they lap it up.

For what its worth, I was involved on the periphery with the set-up of JQ international (consultant) and can tell you that - at least from what i was involved in (aircraft and related svcs) - there werent a whole lot of favours given by QF to JQ. Based on the bencmarking we did they're paying pretty fair rates for things sourced from the mother ship (at least at that time).

[ditch handle]

Throttle to bottle,

Can you help me with the Jetstar International business model and how [if?] it extends beyond the "bogan to Bali" mode of transport ?

Why would a logical person fly Jetstar, longhaul to Europe when they could for the same money or less travel full service with an Asian carrier?

Or are you really suggesting that Jetstar are going to be able to undercut Thai, Malaysian and the like?

[puff]

Perhaps give Air Asia X a run for their money !

[Going Boeing]

ANstar, as you probably already know, galley bulkheads on Airbus types are part of the structural integrity of the aircraft (unlike Boeing). The QF International configured A333's & A332's have larger galleys (than Domestic/JQ) to carry two full service meals and, consequently, there is less floor space available for seats. You're right that they could just replace the seats and accept the reduced capacity but it wouldn't provide the optimum returns required under a LCC model. To modify the galleys to gain the extra seating would be very expensive.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Under AJ's assumed plans here, it would seem that they might think it even more expensive to either (a) maintain the status-quo with mainline doing the flying (not likely), or (b) drop those routes they see as being unprofitable to continue flying under the mainline guise (also not likely).

Who knows; maybe they're thinking that they might as well just re-paint the existing mainline fleet and have JQ operate them in their current config. Particularly the -200 International Config ones - that would free up a little more gas to go the extra mile (or 600) needed to fly BKK-MUC/FCO. Or, as someone else said, just re-configure them with more seats and leave the galleys/bulkheads as they are. Surely it can only mean the loss of a couple extra rows.

Either this rumour is a self-perpetuating one, or there's something in it, because I've been hearing this from Engineers, Ground Staff and office types for the last month or so.

[alangirvan]

I thought at one stage, Qantas had a problem with flying twins over the Himalayas - is that still the case, whether with Qantas planes or Jetstar planes?

Jetstar could fly to Europe by extending the MEL-BKK flights, but who wants to travel to MEL to get onto those flights? So would people fly Qantas SYD-BKK and join JQ there? Would JQ duplicate some Qantas flights to feed the hub?

If we have to tick the boxes to prepay meals and neck pillows and dig-e-players for BKK-FCO/ATH that will be an expensive exercise. An forget about competing against Singapore Airlines. With Singapore Airlines planes about to hit the second hand market, Jetstar will be competing against some Asian airlines which have not been formed yet. Perhaps airlines with hubs at Thai resorts, who fly Europeans and Australians there, and offer through fares Australia-Europe at Marginal pricing.

[indamiddle]

BA fly 777 lhr -sin no problems. we don't fly over the himalayas, more over bin ladin, the paki/afghan border. no problem for A330 there.

[ANstar]

I'd say they'd lose 1 row of STAR class seats if they did just swap out the seats. They may think that is an ok trade off in the interim???

[Ultergra]

ANstar works for Jetstar, it's so obvious.

[OldBoiler]

"ANstar works for Jetstar, it's so obvious."

And so what of it??

[ANstar]

ANstar works for Jetstar, it's so obvious


Actually, NO, I don't work for Jetstar and nor do I want to!

If you are referring to my name it actually relates back to Ansett Australia... AN... and if I recall correctly they had STAR's on their tale.... hence the name!

Anyways this thread is not about me or who I work for....so time to get back on topic....

[ditzyboy]

ANstar, as you probably already know, galley bulkheads on Airbus types are part of the structural integrity of the aircraft (unlike Boeing). The QF International configured A333's & A332's have larger galleys (than Domestic/JQ) to carry two full service meals and, consequently, there is less floor space available for seats.

Going Boeing -

The initial 333s were delivered in an Domestic configuration and had a considerable amount of work done in reconfiguring the Doors 1 and Doors 4 galleys to International standard. In fact they do not resemble the former domestic galleys (very similar to the Dom -200s) at all.

Are you suggesting that if a larger galley is installed on delivery it cannot be removed? I am curious as the -300s now have several galley units not present when they were delivered in the Dom config.

[Going Boeing]

Are you suggesting that if a larger galley is installed on delivery it cannot be removed?

Ditzy, I think that you should re-read my post. I didn't say that the galleys couldn't be removed (or reconfigured), I just said that it's probably not economical to do it. The figure that I heard for the reconfiguring the first 3 A330-300's from domestic to international was $25m per aircraft (following a major stuff-up by a committee on the "Commercial" side of Qantas - Peter Gregg was on that committee & he openly admitted to staff that they had made an expensive mistake). The main problem is the galley bulkheads which on Airbus aircraft are "structural" in that they add strength to the airframe. If they are moved, the stress paths have to be re-calculated and compensated.

Alangirvan, I believe that the problem relating to QF flying "twins" over the Himalayas was due to the B767's having pax oxy generators of limited duration that was insufficient for what was required before the aircraft could descend to 14,000'. Aircraft that have oxy bottles in sufficient numbers to keep the pax (& crew) concious for extended periods can operate without restriction.

[Capt Kremin]

The QF A330's have the same problem. 15 minutes limit on the Oxy generators.

[Bolty McBolt]

T to B
For what its worth, I was involved on the periphery with the set-up of JQ international (consultant) and can tell you that - at least from what i was involved in (aircraft and related svcs) - there werent a whole lot of favours given by QF to JQ. Based on the bencmarking we did they're paying pretty fair rates for things sourced from the mother ship (at least at that time).

Mate I can't agree with you there. I have to deal with the short comings of the Jet * Internantional A330 handling contract (maintenance) on a daily basis. The cost of a transit done by qf including sup checks etc is approx a third the price of any of the stations/ports visited for just a transit. The price was forced upon us from a very high level :yuk: well below cost !

[QFinsider]

Bolty you are spot on...

That it the whole furphy of the J* arguement.
Does the market and observers really believe that Q is the only airline that can co-control a premium airline and a so called Low cost model. Same aircraft same routes generate the same costs. If the fare structure generates any yield I would be astounded. Notwithstanding the pay structure, yield is yield. Accounting can produce any figures management want...Beleiving that J* is somehow much cheaper than a mainline carrier neglects the fact they borrow are gifted and otherwise acquire things at nominal value....If the supporters of this crap beg to differ show me an audited set of accounts, paying particular attention to what comes from the parent. There is no magic, it is tricky accounting nothing more... Guess there really are fairies at the bottom of the garden!

Want to test the robustness of the yield from a LCC, look at the morphing of Ryan Air, super cheap fares but so many add-ons with new being added every day..
As a business matures in aviation, aircraft age etc business adds cost and a low yield model relying on volume must find addtional revenue...
Hence Ryan Air looking into charging for the dunny...

Of course Qantas management were the smartest guys in the room...That's why we are adding capacity when all other airlines are shedding it...

J* sole aim was to apportion cost, log it back through mainline at every oppurtunity, hence load up the parent with ridiculous costs. Just look at what flight operations must absorb in its budget (Qantas is an airline, flying people) the cost apportioning is ridiculous,so many unrproductive empires in accounting/finance/marketing/OHS/HR et al .Aided and assisted by workchoices there was the setting to break the pesky unions..Kind of like a waterfront/workchoices sort of shake up...

I will stand corrected when stand alone accounts are produced...somehow dont see that happening :mad:

If however J* is about low wages, then that "cost" is lower for sure..As an operating overhead, what percentage of overhead is that, particularly with respect to flight crew/engineering etc?

[Taildragger67]

Just a question on the Himalaya-crossing question - is it not the case that routes between Singapore and Europe tend to track south of the Himalayas (hence no special oxy requirements) but those out of Bangkok are more likely to track over the Himalayas (and so require extra oxy)?

Hence twins running ex-Singapore are fine as they are, but ex-Bangkok will need the extra oxy? Could this be why BA use 777s via Singapore and 744s via Bangkok?

GC tracks over the hump (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=sin-lhr%0D%0Abkk-lhr&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=)

Thanks

[Transition Layer]

Despite the Great Circle tracks, BKK-LHR and SIN-LHR routes generally converge over India near Delhi and both go up through Afghanistan, therefore same Oxy requirements. BKK is normally on the northern most route and SIN uses the southern routes, although this is dependent on traffic.

SIN routes to Europe will occasionally go through Iran or even the Middle East depending on winds.

[speeeedy]

As an operating overhead, what percentage of overhead is that, particularly with respect to flight crew/engineering etc?

Pilots wages in QF are just under 4% of total expenditure.

So even if you cut the pilots wages by 25%, the total expenditure would still be 99% of what it was.

I think Mr Joyce is smart enough to see the value in that extra 1%, or more correctly he can see the value that would be lost if he tried to extract that 1% from a front-line and well respected group such as pilots. He would have learned this from Dixons folly in taking on another front-line and well respected group last year.

A couple of other points of interest:

1) The executive wage bill exceeds the pilots wage bill prior to the 500 management positions going, once the purge is completed the exec wage bill will be fairly close to line ball with the pilots.

2) As a percentage of JQ Expenditure the J* pilots wages are the same as QF... Coincidence?

[Jabawocky]

You can only cut costs so far, far better to concentrate on extracting just a few dollars....yes just a few extra dollars per ticket and also those few extra tickets that make all the difference.

Stating the obvious I know! But thats where its at.

[ratpoison]

from a front-line and well respected group such as pilots.
Hahaha, Speeed, don't know where you have been for a number of years now, but we get as much respect from management and the traveling public as does a turd floating in a swimming pool.:cool:

[ditzyboy]

Going Boeing...

Thanks for clarifying that. I misunderstood your post.

I believe that the problem relating to QF flying "twins" over the Himalayas was due to the B767's having pax oxy generators of limited duration that was insufficient for what was required before the aircraft could descend to 14,000'.

The QF A330's have the same problem. 15 minutes limit on the Oxy generators.

Capt Kremin and GB -

The International -200s have 22 min PSU oxygen. Is that still not enough to meet the requirement?

[Going Boeing]

Ditzy, it depends on the route. Routes through Afghanistan in the North/North East area have "escape" routes that would require the aircraft to remain well above 14,000' for much longer than that. The requirement for the Southern route may just be inside that, but if we are talking about JQ operating A332's to ATH & FCO then it is likely that they will fly routes through IRAN (despite the higher Air Navigation charges) & Turkey where the 22mins oxy will be sufficient.

[Capt Kremin]

....wot GB sed....

[MrWooby]

Another problem with having A330's flying the European routes over India/Pakistan and especially Afghanistan is that there are very few levels to operate at and with aircraft spaced every 10 mins having an aircraft cruising at M0.82/.83 stuffs everybody up. If you ain't doing M0.85 then get out of the way.;)

[genex]

QFInsider

I have checked guys like you in the simulator....so sure they're right til the "Pull Up" warning sounds. I really sincerely wish you well in your career in the cockpit....just stay there and there alone......or if you want to start an airline with your own money and wisdom, then I'll listen.

Here's the news little one:......QANTAS CAN OPERATE ITS OWN LCC CHEAPER THAN COULD A STAND ALONE COMPETITOR AND BETTER THAN COULD THE PARENT QF DINOSAUR TRYING TO BE A YOUTHFUL BALLERINA.

Is that nearly clear enough? Jetstar is not perfect. But it is way better than not having it. Now wrap yourself up in your little cocoon of self righteousness and have a good sleep. Hate is a terrible sin and you should try to be rid of it.

[Back Seat Driver]

genex a checkie... BBWWWhhhaaaahaaahhhaaaahaa
with the stuff he posts here, he probably checks their bags as they go through the security gate at the sim centre.
Ah you crack me up.

[goodonyamate]

genex a checkie...

haha wouldnt let him check my mailbox.....

[Boomerang_Butt]

Slight drift here, but wasn't the issue flying over the Himalayas why QF got the 767RR (22mins oxy as opposed to 12min on the GE)? If so then an A330 with 22min shouldn't be a problem either, depending on the restrictions/route of course...

And this might seem a silly question, but I do sometimes wonder why QF didn't palm the 767s off to Jokestar and use the new A330s on routes where they are gunning for Premium pax... the number of J class pax who complain of this very thing is astounding! Or is it because the managers don't really care about mainline any more and want to paint everything orange?

[Bazzamundi]

The cost of owning and maintaining the 330's is cheaper. Is it true that some 330's were handed to QF as compensation for the 380 saga? If so, the cost of owning them would be bugger all.

As for 20 year old 767's with high maintenance costs, that would not fit the LCC model, would it? Mainline suffers not just the increased costs of operating them, but also the loss of premium revenue from punters shafted with an older, less luxurious type.

[Boomerang_Butt]

Let's not even start on the 767 going to Japan... :E

[Taildragger67]

Boomerang Butt,

Slight drift here, but wasn't the issue flying over the Himalayas why QF got the 767RR (22mins oxy as opposed to 12min on the GE)?

The 763s Qantas ordered from Boeing, are CF6-powered.

The RR-powered 767s in Rat colours are the 7 leased from BA, which runs an only-RR 767 fleet. BA was happy to lose some capacity, QF was scratching for some, looks like everyone kicked a goal. They've not been used for runs up to Europe.

do sometimes wonder why QF didn't palm the 767s off to Jokestar and use the new A330s on routes where they are gunning for Premium pax

Lower seat/mile costs mean that you can make a profit on lower margins - the key to survivability for a LCC.

Also if your premium pax are only on it for a couple of hours, they don't really care what it is, as long as it's on time.

[ditch handle]

Quote-

"also if your premium pax are only on it [clapped out 767] for a couple of hours, they don't really care what it is, as long as it's on time."

______________

HNL :rolleyes:

[QFinsider]

The end game was always to "grow" J* and wither mainline...
The A330 will keep going to the "growth" airline. Growth of what i am not sure...

AIPA will be focused on EBA and money matters..

Whammo :suspect:

[Going Boeing]

The current plans are for one of the mainline domestic configured A332's to go to JQ with 2 new ones from Airbus to go to JQ, so at this stage, mainline is only losing one aircraft.

Boomerang Butt, the QF RR B767's were leased (at a very cheap rate) from BA to do domestic flights only. The difference in pax oxy endurance is only because of what BA had specified (their B767's regularly flew to Middle East destinations which does involve flying over high terrain for short periods).

[Capt Kremin]

The two new ones are slated for Mainline, GB. Not JQ. Mainline will have one extra aircraft.

[Going Boeing]

OK, that's different to what my source said. GB

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

What I've heard is more along the lines of what GB posted; more A332s to JQ both from QF and EADS.

[Tester Call 121.5]

JQ getting 1 A332 coming off Airbus assembly line in December '09. Were it will be utilized, will be anyones guess. I think that is all they are expectig until the Dream on liner arrives.

[sleeve of wizard]

Oxygen requirements aren't your only concern if crossing "the hump", think about the engine out max level, B763 at 185t engine out crz level is about Fl190!

[Offchocks]

sleeve of wizard

I doubt you would be crossing "the hump" at 185T (max T/O wt). The routes out of BKK and SIN don't go over real high ground until just before Pakistan which would be about 4hrs into the flight.