QANTAS - Sharing Of Flying

[Domestos]

Issued by SH FAAA today:

As foreshadowed in ‘The Week That Was’ your Association has had several meetings with Qantas aimed at managing the current crisis facing all Qantas employees.

The impact on crew both Short Haul and Long Haul is still being assessed. By way of explanation, at the initial meetings we were considering the publicly announced reduction in forecast flying and its impact on the Short Haul establishment, only to be told at a subsequent meeting that the flying split between the divisions may need to be reviewed.

Therefore, before any constructive discussions can occur on measures to be taken to manage any demonstrated surplus it is crucial that flying changes forecast over the next twelve months between both divisions be clearly defined.

Further, your Association will also be taking part in the joint ACTU meeting scheduled with Qantas early next week. Subject to the above, all measures to avoid redundancy will be examined in line
with the Association Policy. This will include but not be limited to the following:

· Transfer of flying
· Transfer of crew between the divisions
· Examine base establishments
· Press for Short Haul crew to have direct access to A380 operations for an agreed period
· All forms of leave including LSL

While the current environment is unprecedented, crew have demonstrated previously and we are confident will do so again, that they can pull together regardless of division or employment contracts. Members can expect a detailed update midway through next week.

My question is....where are they going to move crew to and from??? Has anyone got any ideas???? LH to SH or SH to LH???? What sort of flying are we going to share?????

PS. Please no discussion re: 1750 job losses as this is currently being discussed in the D&G forum. Please save this thread for discussion re: CC and the sharing of work etc. Also....please do not wage a QAL vs. QCCA vs. QD vs. MAM war here or anything about VR/CR.

[DEFCON4]

Before anyone goes off half cocked lets wait till we have more information as to who what when where how and why certain actions will be implemented.
Cool heads and calm hearts are what is required.
Not uninformed speculation

[Pegasus747]

There is nothing to stop domestic Crew having a wish list and talking to management about it.

Doesn't mean that the company or long haul crew will necessarily agree

[GalleyHag]

Would that be the same wish list long haul had during SARS and the start of the war when hundreds of long haul crew were brought across to domestic to save jobs? Short memory!!

[ditch handle]

Mmmmm...

Short memory? No. Clear thinking? Maybe..........

The difference this time is that there appears to be a looming problem with "surplus to needs" flight attendants in both divisions.

[GalleyHag]

The point being when LH was in real trouble and job losses were a real possibility the short haul FAAA were there to support you but now as evidenced by Peg 747 comments its every man for themself.

Therefore I hope our union goes hard or goes home. The flying and aircraft belong to Qantas and if they choose to give domestic crew a go on the A380 over your own crew at an undercut price, bring it on if that is the attitude of long crew and the long haul FAAA.

It is clear our union wants open and constructive discussions to avoid any job losses in ANY division and Peg calls that a wish list. Well if the long haul FAAA is happy to see crew in other divisions loose their jobs when other solutions can be found before CR so be it.

P.S. It wasnt that long ago that the company made another offer to QAL crew to operate the A380 watch the stampede if CR is banded around, however the door may very well be slammed in your face due to your own spite towards others divisions.

[Domestos]

GalleyHag.....well said darling.:D

Pegasus747....I don't think LH (or SH for that matter) have a say in how the company chooses to run its business....particularly in this current economic climate. Money talks and bull:mad: walks....if the company wants to share the flying around or makes LH do PER returns or gives SH access to A380....or whatever it wants to do with its operations, then so be it. Both LH/SH FAAA can rant and rave and wave EBAs....but hey...I'm doing whatever the company wants me to do in order to keep my job and hopefully help my fellow colleagues (be they LH/SH) keep theirs. Now is not really the time to be self-righteous....we need to cooperate with each other and the company.

Anyway...lets not thread drift.

I will post more info from FAAA once they come to hand.

[Pegasus747]

i dont know why u all have to get so hysterical all the time. The LH FAAA have indicated to the company that they can bring as many SH flight attendants to LH as they want. The LH EBA regulates A380.

If when SH crew come over they choose to go to A380 thats their decision. But let's get a few things clear

Firstly, when the LH crew did their last EBA they ensured that SH crew came over on pre existing conditions not like their SH colleagues who sold them down the river and denied them bands pay permanently

Secondly, the SH division has over 600 years of LSL and AL. When you have done what LH crew have done and burned that then we can talk about potential transfers if a surplus exists.

FInally if you think that the LH FAAA will agree to any variation to their EBA to facilutate SH transfers while there is a surplus in LH then you have rocks in your head. Further nothing will occurr until SH have burned your leave and then we can talk turkey .....Capische????

one final thought.....SH crew can always don and orange jacket and fly for jetstar "domestically" if they want a share of the Qantas group flying, at least thats the same flying as you are currently doing. A380 is another ballgame and quite frankly its a more professional work environment that any of your beehives have ever worked in. I suggest you stick to what you know best...Death by napkins!

[surfside6]

The regional flying agreement that the domestics did with QF plus the reduction in Bands payments for transferees did it for me.You lot broke ranks to take our flying.There are 3 reasons there is two divisions.The company likes it,we like it and you like it.Never the twain shall meet.
Personally I would be happy to see domestic flying taken over entirely by Jet*
GalleyHag and your mate Veronica hope you look good in black and tan

[Ka.Boom]

Here we go the same old rubbish.Tightslot close this thread and save the usual suspects some heartburn

[Domestos]

Um...OK...I don't want this thread to be shut down by mods and nor do I want this thread (which I started thank you very much) to be a war between LH/SH. Both GalleyHag and Peg747 raise some very valid points and I respect both of your opinions.

The truth of the matter is:

1. Yes...both divisions have hundreds of years of leave
2. The company intends to sell 10x 747 and 767 (which affects both LH and SH as we both operate these aircraft respectively).
3. There is no external recruitment of CC (except for QD which has now stopped).
4. There is going to be a reduction in flying on international routes
5. QF has pulled out of PEK and BOM (except for the shuttle between SIN and BOM).
6. There is an imbalance of crew numbers in domestic bases.
7. 3 more A380s are due to arrive by August 2009.

So yes, both divisions are up :mad:creek....so....the best thing for all of us is to cooperate with each other and find some compromise. I really don't think the IRC (nor the Australian public and Rudd government) will have much sympathy for either LH or SH if they are hell bent on enforcing something that will see other people loose their jobs. If the company can see cost and job savings in giving either division different flying/access to aircraft...then I am pretty sure the IRC and Rudd government would support this.

Pegasus747...I am more than happy to modify the SH EBA to give you access to 737 if it meant your job was on the line.....please try to see where we are all coming from. We all want to protect each other and look after each other don't we?????

Hysteria finished.

[Pegasus747]

the threat of job losses is obviously very emotive. I would just suggest that ppl calm down and let their unions work with the company over this.

The suggestions of flight attendants and observers in here will not have any real input into the outcome no matter how well constructed.

The company and the unions are committed to avoiding CR where possible, and at the end of the day we are all working for the same end.

Discussions about where ppl would like to work as an alternative while there are surpluses everywhere are unhelpful and open old wounds that are clearly not healed.

LH and SH are like two different tribes ....there has been a bit of intermarraige but essentially still two different tribes with different conditions.

Lets leave the debate to those that have been elected to deal with the issues and have the necessary skill and experience rather than the usual arm chair warriors please

The additional A380's that are coming are part of the LH international Flying and do not represent additional work. Just replacing existing 747's . there will be no growth to accomodate transfers sadly. just a rebalancing of QCCA and QAL crew to the A380

[GalleyHag]

Peg 747

Keep your wig on I am sure if any SH crew go to the A380 it would be on a LWOP arrangement and join QCCA not a transfer to the LH division and there is sweet fa the long haul faaa could do to stop that. Even blind freddy blogs can see that would be the case the company would NEVER transfer short haul crew to long haul in the current climate.

As the for the orange jacket comment a lot of good your union did for those poor b@stards during their start up just like your own AO crew its all about QAL in your eyes. The same could be said for your guys before domestic is an option should CR be the only option left for long haul crew Orange Jacket International is where you belong. They dont do much work anyway so QAL crew would just slip into that operation unnoticed.

And as for bands if you want a pissy little $190 a month I will give it to you when you come across if you knew anything about the short haul EBA bands are worthless these days.

I suggest you stick to what you know and leave the real work and negotiations to the professionals that have always dealt with VR and potentional CR in other divisions in a highly professional manner. Quite unlike yourself.

DOMESTOS

TOTALLY agree the government DO NOT want to see any further job losses and if that means looking at the legality of EBA's and so to avoid job losses Peg and his mates may have a real fight on their hands.

Lets wait and see I look forward to the outcome and any discussions considering Peg is already going into the meeting bitter and twisted about the band issue and regional flying which is so 5 minutes ago.

[Domestos]

On second thought Pegs...I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy to work on a B737 so I don't think I would let you do it (not saying that you are my enemy:)). I'm so glad the company has stopped its delivery of that pile of tin can :mad:. Yes you are right...death by napkins and death by wet chux in cart handles. Oh if there is a god...get rid of the goddam 737.

You raise a very valid point....both SH and LH are very different tribes....one likes the galley roll and the other prefers the wet chux....I know which team I bat for and yes size does matter boys and girls. I guess now is the best time, more than ever for BOTH LH and SH and the company to sit together at the table and talk openly about saving jobs and cooperating with each other.

[Pegasus747]

well i have never had to negotiate anything so i wouldnt know but i have every confidence in those that managed to negotiate our last EBA and got 75 of the regional flying back where it belongs

But as for VR and CR i would suggest that its never pleasant for anyone to be on the recieving end of it but i think it likely to be a while before it hits the International Division given their current flexibility

[Pegasus747]

i have no idea where this idea of a secondment came from to the A380 .....its not the London base and is regulated by an EBA.

There is a surplus in both divisions at the moment so what would be the benefit of increasing it in LH by seconding crew to the A380???

Somehow the maths doesnt add up to me.. I have no idea why the SH FAAA would have put something like that out. As i said earlier its probably just "thinking OUt loud" or a wish list.

But its doesnt make any sense. To manage a surplus it would be easier just to flex some flying on the common aircraft like 767 and A330 not transfer crew..

I did hear an FAAA official say last week however that if there is a surplus in short haul they should close the cairns base and offer them permanent positions in LH and perhaps the A380... Perhaps thats what the SH FAAA means in its newsletter.

Thats something worth the LH FAAA pursuing if it helps the SH division as AO were LH flight attendants to start with

[Domestos]

In all honesty...I don't think any union, be they pilots/engineers/ground staff etc. have any leg to stand on to back the company into a corner when it comes to enforcing an EBA during this current economy. So many people have lost jobs....ABC learning centres, major banks, Pacific Brands etc...and even Virgin Atlantic and Air France/KLM are shedding people. If the company wants to give international flying to SH (to save jobs) then I don't think LH really have a leg to stand on....conversely....if the company wanted to give 'Rock Returns' to LH on the B747 (to save jobs), then I don't think the SH union have a leg to stand on either. The IRC + Rudd Government + Australian public would support anything the company chooses to do in order to save jobs.

Come on LH....SH isn't that bad....remember....we have a garbage collection cart where you can toss anything you want into it...cory pots/salad bowls/oven racks/whole meal trays/headset bags....you name it!!!! If you can stow it then you can throw it!!!! God bless the SH Garbage Collection Cart....I LOVE YOU CART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pegasus747]

DOmestos, i seriously find your humour extremely entertainlng. The way you are able to laugh at the madness of the company and some of the procedures introduced by the SH procedures team never ceases to delight me.

I dont pax domestically as much as i used to , but its always impressive how you do so much in so little time. But the latest stuff "death by napkins" is the best entertainment i have had in years...and the micro serve of soup takes the prize>>>what the hell are they thinking.....how are those lesbian loafers going?? have they been eliminated yet

[Domestos]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on which country hick city I am flying to), I work in the 'Premium' cabin....a choice bourne out of sheer survival more so than anything else....so I inevitably have very little contact with my beloved SH Garbage Collection Cart (hereafter 'SHGCC'). Needless to say...in spite of working in the confined J/C galleys of 767 and the hideous A330-200, I still find innovative and novel ways of disposing company property down the garbage chute. For instance, last week, I successively disposed of a bodum plunger down the bin of an A330-200. I was waaaaay too lazy to bend down + open cart door + rearrange J/C trays to accommodate the aforementioned service item...so I did the best OHS thing and tossed the whole bodum (contents and all) into the bin. Mind you, the head rush and 'high' is not exactly the same as putting whole oven racks and other service items down a SHGCC, but the feeling of liberation is still there.

As for the 'Lesbian Loafers'......well, unfortunately, the Black Widow, our patron sponsor, and the inaugral founder of the annual '3 Legged Lesbian Loafer' race in the BNE base has sadly moved into a different management position....therefore, I have been left with the arduos task of promoting Lesbian Loafer usage all by myself. Luckily for me, I have been given my own special stall front at the Warehouse of Excellence, so I can promote the healthy and lifestyle benefits of wearing such soft and comfortable low heeled shoes. I am approaching the OHS department to see whether or not I can get a male version of the Lesbian Loafer released for all our beloved Yen Men to wear. I am currently sourcing a number of suppliers on Oxford Street. Needless to say....'Drag Bag....the Beyond Woman Boutique' has shut down......any ideas anyone????????????

[Domestos]

Oh please, excuse the pun....but I would have to say the company's choice of serving pink cupcakes in Y/C takes the icing on the cake. Which Mother's Club Committee Executive approved this service offering? I suspect the work of the local Ladies Auxillary. I've never done this service myself.....but hello!!!!!!!!!!!! has anyone ever heard of packaging???? So they expect us to tong a pink cup cake onto a (much loved and used) napkin and then hand it to the passenger.

Oh God...the next thing they'll have us do is spoon some homemade Mothers Club kumquat jam onto breakfast scones. God help me!!!!!! Get me out of S/H.

So Pegasus747...will you and your LH colleagues grant me as an Asylum Seeker into LH now?????????

[packrat]

The stuff that emanates from the domestics always seems to have a touch of Melbourne Madness to it.
Its fanciful,never thought through and has a twist of invective thrown in for good measure.
The Sydney domestic base is largely ex LH(or appears so)and as such is a little more rational.
GalleyHag is always ready to find some hidden slight in every LH post.
Domestos you remind me of a child who has come to the realization that the wrong family took the wrong baby home from the hospital.You clearly belong in LH where your sense of humour would be most welcome.
There is as yet not enough information to form an opinion about anything.
The LH EBA regarding the A380 and who gets to fly it is quite clear.It certainly does not contain provisions for domestics on temporary secondment or otherwise.
The domestic union has been in bed with the company before.Once the company did the business the domestics were thrown out of bed and ended up on the floor...where they still are.They want to climb back into the sack and be done again .The company must be good at something.Either that or the domestic union just thrives on pain and humiliation

[call button]

After re-reading the shorthaul FAAA notice, I think there is definitely an intention to transfer a large portion of regional flying back to shorthaul. Quite simply we are cheaper than QF longhaul, so the company could make a significant cost saving. I believe the company have been considering this for a period of time, as AJ and his pals have been exploring cost savings in all areas of our operations.

I think the transfers which are being referred to by the union, relate to LH to SH. If the flying pool in shorthaul increases substantially, we will be in a position to allow some of our LH colleagues to transfer across to preserve their jobs. Of course they will have to take a Perth basing :E

[packrat]

Call Button...you live in Melbourne dont you?
Surpluses in LH are currently being managed through a number of initiatives.LWOP,part time,75% rosters and leave burn.
CR is the last and most expensive option the company has.The last VR was a non event.Those who wanted to leave have already left.For those that want to fade to black part time is an agreeable option.
Closing off shore bases to protect local jobs should be explored and highlighted to the company.QCCA in Australia offers the best cost saving of all the Qantas Tribes.It should be expanded anf the off shore bases closed.Contact your local memeber of parliament or ring Anthony Albanese the minister for Aviation.
Just remember..... this current situation is temporary.In 18 months everything will back to normal....whatever normal is

[call button]

Packrat... I do not live in Melbourne.

I agree QCCA may be the most cost effective group, however QF longhaul are the most expensive, and currently the flying on the 747 and A330 is predominantly done by QF longhaul.

In times like this is makes absolute business sense to direct the flying to where the greatest cost savings can be achieved. As I understand, the agreement on the distribution of flying does not form part of either the LH or SH EBA, but is contained in a separate document. Maybe time will tell whether this agreement can actually be enforced by either division.

[mrpaxing]

with the current EBA. i am quite sure the l/h union will insist on the current divisional flying agreement. if Qf cant manage the current surplus the first choice should be to close LHR/BKK/AKL. remove casuals from s/h and sit out the downturn. L/H had had directed leave for quite some time and its time for our domestic collegues to burn their leave. that should take many f/a's out of the system for some time. what you guys in s/h have to understand there is a double stategy in place.. yes, it is a severe downtunr in domestic and international flying and AJ wants to cut some routes but he also wants to give J* a significant boost on the domestic scene.

[GalleyHag]

Peg 747

As you know the FAAA of either division would NEVER put anything in writing to members unless discussions were well underway in regard to transfer of flying and A380 the FAAA is stupid but not that stupid.

There is nothing in the long haul EBA stating that domestic crew cant join QCCA and operate the A380 if there is please tell me where I can find it I just went through the EBA and I believe domestic's who join QCCA would be under their terms and conditions. If the COMPANY not the long haul FAAA give permission for domestic crew to take LWOP thats their decision not the long haul FAAA's decision.

As for the closure of the Cairns base and direct entry to long haul, two words KEEP DREAMING. You coudnt help them before and you cant help them now.

[twiggs]

I agree with you galleyhag, if Qantas allow some domestic crew to join QCCA to fly A380 while on LWOP, no one will care less.
The question is, why would anyone willingly do that?
It would make far more sense to remove the 4 aircraft deadline for right of return from A380, then transfer domestic crew across, as per the current agreement.

As far as the divisional flying, I think domestic would be the one getting less, and L/H would be getting closer to the 100% we always wanted.

[cart_elevator]

Call button

If a large portion regional flying is going to shorthaul, how come the international sectors from Perth have been removed from Shorthaul and will be done by Longhaul in the may/june bid period? (along with most of the other regional flying) :D

If you dont believe me download the bid book from the CC website :p

[Eden99]

I have not posted on here for nearly a year, but i see silly speculation is still the name of the game.

Call Button, you are very confused unfortunately. The transfer of flying that might occur WILL BE SHORT HAUL TO LONG HAUL. That flying is the current 25% that short haul get from the Flexible Flying Pool and will essentially be the remaining international flying that Short Haul do.

The surplus will be managed by transferring that remaining international flying done by s/h back to L/H who originally always did it. This will then allow the direction of long service leave in S/H.

There also seems some very bizarre statements about relative cost between S/H and L/H. The QCCA arrangements in L/H mean that international flying is done more productively in L/H.

Finally, again to clear up some of the nonsense in here, the A380 flying will NEVER be allocated or given to S/H crew in any circumstances. This flying is firmly governed by the LH EBA, just as 737 flying is governed by the SH EBA.

The only access for current SH crew to A380, will be if they transfer into LH, and of course we ( LH crew) and the FAAA INTERNATIONAL DIVISION, would warmly welcome more crew into LH.

I hope my comments above clear up the massive misunderstandings that are occurring in here.

Pegasus, you need to keep the silly baseless speculation in here and misinformed statements under control ! :-)

[Eden99]

AT the end of my previous post i said-

"Pegasus, you need to keep the silly baseless speculation in here and misinformed statements under control ! :-) ".

By that i meant Peg should intervene more vigorously to clear up baseless nonsense and misunderstanding posted by others. I did not mean Peg was posting baseless speculation or misinformation.

Just thought i'd say this so i didn't confuse anyone :)

[packrat]

QCCA is a separate company to Qantas.It is essentially an employment company similar to Adecco.
Just because you work for Qantas doesnt necessarily guarantee right of passage.
Lets wait for a little more information from both the Company and the associations before anyone starts making decisions about their future

[airtags]

doesn't Jetstar share?

:E

(sorry - not my issue but I could not resist!)

[blackguard]

Send the domestic surplus to JetStar.
They seem to be the only part of QF that is growing.
Or so we are told

[call button]

Well, we should get a further update midway through next week, so I guess we will know more then. However, I would like to say that SH has had hardly any regional flying for quite some time, nowhere near 25%, and we are already taking part in an accelerated leave program. LSL, Annual leave and LWOP have already been implemented to deal with an apparent surplus that has existed for some time.

[Pegasus747]

Having just spoken to the LH Faaa I can assure all SH crew that they are welcome to transfer to long haul as long as it doesn't increase the surplus in LH

Also, if you wanted to apply for A380 after qal and Qcca crew have filled the quotas you would also be welcome

The company has no intention of secondmemts to A380 for SH and it's clear to management that the SH Faaa doesn't seem to understand what the company is proposing

Either that or they are offering false and deliberatly misleading info to their membership

[call button]

Pegasus... Since the SH FAAA does not understand what the company is proposing, maybe you could clear the matter up, and tell us all just what the company ARE proposing.

[Pegasus747]

Its not for me to repeat what I was told as a member by an official however without breaching his confidence I can comfortably say that as usual eden99 is on the money and that the Lh Faaa knew nothing of either the Sh proposal to try and grab A380 international flying or the contents of the Sh Faaa newsletter

I was assured that senior Qantas management today have assured the LH Faaa that no such agreement with the Sh Faaa is in place nor would be contemplated without the agreement of the LH Faaa

[call button]

In the SH FAAA's update, they only stated that they would be pressing for Sh crew to have access to the A380 to avoid redundancies, at no time did they state that any agreement has been reached with the company.

What they did say however was that the company have posponed discussions because the flying split between the divisions may need to be reviewed.

I was under the impression that the split of flying between the divisions is contained in a legal document, which is binding on all parties. It now seems this may not be the case, as the company are reviewing it as we speak, with a view to shift flying between the divisions. This agreement, on regional flying was a huge part of the LH EBA vote. It should be a huge concern to everyone that the company may be able to vary it as they wish.

[Pegasus747]

The division flying agreement can be terminated by any one of the three parties. The last long haul eba negotiations contemplated that this might occur at some stage and locked in 75% of A330 flying and 767 international flying

If the company decided to walk away from the Dfa for any reason, the only issue would be what happens to the 25% of short haul flying no longer covered by the EBa or the dfa

[QF380]

I dont think closing LHR would be an option.

- Basic salary is much lower then QCCA
- All crew are trained on B747 and A380
- Shorter trips
- New training facilities at BA Cranebank and Hammersmith

can't see much change from the LHR end as this save's Qantas Millions

maybe BKK would be an option as the crew are all not directly employed by any Qantas group.

[argusmoon]

Last look today and there were still $2 to an English pound.
The wage comparison is weak.
The exchange rate still makes LHR crews more expensive.
Legislation also places restrictions on the hours worked in a roster in Europe
Administration costs in LHR would disappear if the base closed.
The training facilities could be used by other carriers to train their crews on the A380.
It would therefore generate income.
The attrition rate in LHR is high.The cost of the constant recruitment would also be eliminated.
English based crews dont pay tax in Australia.More employees in Australia mean more tax revenue for Australia.
There is a lot spin on how productive the LHR base is.Face saving spin.
The benefits of closing the LHR far outway any cost saving....if indeed there is any.
QFUK is a separate business entity to QAL.It has the same basic structure as QCCA.They are both subsidiaries.Those individuals employed are not directly employed by Qantas Airways Ltd
Why in this current economic environment, where Australians are being put out of work,should an Australian Company have a foreign base?
Now is a good time to centralize the business and remove duplicated costs.
The closure of the AKL base is another option that needs to be looked at

[whatever6719]

Just to add to that last post about Aussie jobs, I read in a different thread, that QF are advertising for cabin crew jobs in New Zealand to work for Jetconnect.
With the major restructure of Trans Tasman flying and the ramping up of Jetconnect in a big way with multiple 737 flights from the east coast of Australia to NZ, surely we should be insisting that current Australian based crew be operating these flights. If there is a surplus of crew and the company want to do all they can to avoid CR, well then surely this would be a good way to start. If indeed there really are adverts over there for cc jobs, then something needs to be done about it!

[lc_461]

According to JCs website they are only "Accepting Interest" for AKL base SH and LH Crew. As far as I can see QFUK is still "Recruiting Now", but no other sectors of the QF Group are currently taking on new CC.

[mrpaxing]

mentioned in another thread there is a dual strategy in place by QF. once Jetconnect takes over most of the tasman flying on 737's starting June, it leaves more surplus S/H & L/H crew. The unions have to realise that they are being "sucked" in by the company putting more of local F/A's on partime/LWOP/etc. Both S/H &L/H unions should start applying politicial pressure and demand overseas base closures.:*

[call button]

mrpaxing... Jetconnect have been operating all the 737 Tasman flying for a long time now. They operate 737's painted as Qf aircraft and the cabin crew wear our uniform. The only extra Tasman flying they could take over is the flying that is currently 767. Maybe the company could replace these services with 737's operated by Jetconnect??

[mrpaxing]

as there is some jetconnect 737's on the tasman. there was however a large present of S/h and L/H operating 737/767 which looks like most of it is going to jetconnect. also the 747 Qf25/26 will start/stop in Akl and the feeder from mel is a 737. more excess crew in both divisions.

[Pegasus747]

the surplus is managed in the division or airline that it falls into. The both divisions of the FAAA will no doubt work together to ensure that any chance of CR is avoided at all costs.

I am comfortable that each division can manage its own surplus effectively by working with the COmpany.

The LH division has introduced 75% rosteres, part-time, annual leave burn and LSL burn as well as LWOP.

There has been a total freeze on recruitment in overseas bases and as attrition occurs recruitment is no longer taking place overseas.

There is a rationalisation of all international and domestic flying taking place at the moment and both divisions of the FAAA are making submissions to the company about the best way in which to manage surpluses.

I think the only real danger of CR occuring is if when all leave in SH is burned and there is still a continuing downturn in the industry rather than a stabilisation.

i am confident that given that if there is not a continuing downturn that jobs can be protected without the need to resort to CR.

However, VR would have to be offered first and a number of other potential solutions that the unions and Qantas are looking at as we speak

[Pegasus747]

it was brought in at the time of the merger with Australian Airlines but no longer has any relevance as far as i know. Further, i dont think given the IR laws now with separate EBA's and 4 different employers across the workforce it would be enforceable

[Pegasus747]

as i said before i dont think that Global Seniority is even remotely relevant anymore. When it was just LH/SH it might have but now there are QCCD,QCCA, MAM, International Division and Domestic Division, Part time, 75%, A380 dedicated crew etc etc ....

We could argue it but the Company would just say it would cause chaos and imbalances accross bases, fleets and divisions and that would probably cut quite some mustard in the Commission

The AIRC is not going to be about enforcing something that will add significant cost and inefficiency to a Company that is shedding workers already.

I would be interested in hearing anyones view on a technical argument that could be run, other than some argument about seniority which the AIRC already finds offensive and will not get any runs on the board

[OCCR]

it wouldnt be fair if they made sh cr that had been flying for 8 years and then to keep qcca that had been on the books for 1 year.

yes it is fair! you are short haul they are long haul! end of the story

[blackguard]

As it stands Global Seniority is an administrative quirk that has no bearing or relevance to anything.At the time it was it was introduced as appeasement for the beehives.
Each division will manage its own surplus.The reality is that QCCA will survive first because of their T and Cs over someone in S/H.
Before any of this comes to fruition measures already in place will deal with surpluses which will only exist in the short term.
As has been suggested the off shore bases should shoulder the burden before any Australian based employee loses his/her job.

[blackguard]

Review the history of relations between LH and Domestics.It has been adversarial at best and treacherous at worst.It is not about to change.
Most in LH would not accept the loss of one LH position to protect the position of one domestic..
Thats the reality.
Each division management will deal with their own surpluses in their own way

[Pegasus747]

despite the tribalism that exists within the respective divisions, the FAAA and the Company will work together to ensure that "nobody" loses their job wherever possible.

There is a level of industrial maturity that exists between some of the union leadership and the business that isnt necessarily replicated in all unions. This maturity i hope will prevail so that the tribalisms of the past do not affect decision making that would see unnessary job loss where there are reasonable alternatives , that only require leadership to prevail

[mrpaxing]

relationship between unions communications would be open and trustworthy. given that the L/H union appears to read the latest S/H newsletter online about potential backroom deals its fair to assume they (S/H, nothing changed) would sell out anyone to promote the beehive tribes.:yuk:

[OCCR]

don't be fooled Peg.... the two faces of the Domestics will rear its ugly head.
They will play nice to the Intl FAAA and "pretend" to make amends....and then all of a sudden WHAM they will shaft us like they have done before.

I'd trust QF management before the Domestic FAAA.....

John Pl.yf.......left them with a lasting legacy..:mad:...

on another note the "death by napkins " post was hilarious

[Pegasus747]

well it's sad that desperation often produces such behaviour....but its de rigour for that side of the flight attendant divide.

Long Haul crew have never chased Domestic Flying however it seems that the Domestic Division ( or a large percentage of them) based on the transfer list would really rather be doing International work!!

As an International Flight Attendant i can totally understand their desire to end the monotony of Canberra returns, but is trying to stitch up a deal on the A380 behind the LH back really the way to go???

Wouldnt you just be better off transferring all INternational FLying to the INternational DIvision and then chasing the work by transferring??

[OCCR]

that is exactly what I mean... they have already tried to stitch up the A380 behind our backs, and this is just the beginning.

even though I have been critical of some of MM policies in the past I know for one thing HE will never allow the Domestics to shaft us again.

[Pegasus747]

OCCR on that one you are 100% correct.

Despite the fact that Michael Mijatov has led the charge of trying to get the unions back together, and has often said to members that its more complex than members would necessarily see..i think we can now clearly see what the obstacles are to a marraige with them.

I mean whilst dicussions of getting back together are simmering away in the background they are out there cheating on you like the town bike with anyone that can pleasure them

I think any chance of getting back together with the SH FAAA will have to be postponed until their current leadership (or lack thereof) is replaced by a more competent and trustworthy bunch

Perhaps some enterprising LH crew can find some fed up SH crew who may require some assistance in getting them elected and replace the current misguided mad hatters tea party at bunnings

[OCCR]

hmmmmm
even then though would you trust them!

its in their blood! I think its best we go at this one alone! we always get betters results.
lets use all our resources to protect our jobs.
From what i have been told they are leaving the Domestic FAAA in droves.
Its a shame that people like "domestos" have to endure that lot! it would be great to have him in LH

[Pegasus747]

i think if they are leaving its because there doesnt appear to be any leadership. It seems that the whole joint is run by beehives for beehives.

I fail to see how they are remotely relevant to MAM casuals or any other members. The MAM casuals are mightily pissed off that they are just seen as some stop gap measure to ensure the beehives have their FWA

If the SH FAAA were serious about repesenting their entire division they would have one EBA that covers QAL, MAM and QCCD... rather than three different EBA's that fail to produce any cohesive workforce.

[S/H 737]

The S?H Union are the most moronic sycophantic bunch of ineffectual tossers I have unfortunately had the pleasure to come across. Whilst S?H haul basically consists of a mothers club who do this as a hobby to go shopping in perth, they are too disinterested and too pathetic to ever make a stand Hence the perpetual ineffectual monopoly of a few who have rule the union and treat their members with disdain,
They are spineless and know they always get reelected unapposed.
You can forget S?H don't trust them L?H they are the most two faced back stabbing hypocritical and they call themselves unionist- this is an opinion only you make up your own.But hey I'm not telling you anything you don't already know

[call button]

Pegasus... Your idea about having one EBA for the entire division is a great one, but lets just see how cohesive your longhaul workforce is when you come to negotiate your next EBA. When is your EBA up, 2013? or is it earlier than that?? You will have an absolute sh*tfight on your hands to get QF and QCCA to be cohesive. If you all get 3% a year, then QF's 3% will be more than QCCA's thus the pay gap between the 2 groups will become bigger. Or maybe QF crew will take a pay freeze so QCCA can see a decent pay increase - yeah right.

Anyone can see that you will not be a cohesive group when it comes to the next EBA.

[Pegasus747]

well i dont think the LH membership thought it was going to be easy but its better than offshoring which was the alternative or MAM casuals and SH crew getting the INternational Flying with a lower cost base

The LH flight attendants bit the bullet and did what they could. They also did things to massively lower sick leave and now have the lowest sick leave in the company, which management keep congratulating them on and rewarding them by giving them more and more international flying

I guess the proof of the pudding is always in the eating and we will look at the group certificates of the QCCA crew at the end of the year and see whether they were better off in MAM

Considering they now get sick leave, 6 weeks annual leave, staff travel and largely tax free meal allowances in cash. I am told that on the A380 in particular the QCCA crew are doing it so tough on their third world conditions that they are booking on 3 night cruises out of san diego during their 5/6 day slips in LA or hiring cars and driving to Las Vegas for Flying to New York for 3/4 nights.

Just doesnt sound as bad to me as some are painting it. And i think that their conditions will of course improve over time in the same way that everyone elses have over time.

The one thing that i can say is that they have better job security than some in the Qantas group in my opinion

[firepussy]

Peggy has a way of distilling all the nonsense down to reality.As they used to say in Dragnet..give me the facts ma'am..... just the facts

[QF A330]

S/H-L/H, MEL-SYD, FORD-HOLDEN when will the division end.

Being married to a S/H CSM with 30 plus years who is too young to retire, ho hum.

You all work for the same company, and a great company it is.

Whilst on L/H flights, ALL of the operating crew treat us equally as well as the paying customers which is impeccable for service and professionalism.

S/H is NOT a mothers club, but a different type of flying on smaller planes and when my wife commenced flying, many of the posters on this board were either at school or not even a twinkle in their parents eyes.

Beehives......................give us a break.

And most of the 30 year plus crew consider the 738 to be like a comfortable pair of slippers..............they feel at home whilst working on them.

AND L/H please don't embarrass the world with the kissy kissy greet before a flight.

:ok:

[firepussy]

Guesss whose idea that was?
An ex domestic hostie.
How do such old people(30 years plus)still fly?
Must scare the hell out of the pax on a 738 when they get on board and find the Nannas club serving them lunch.All that powder and rouge...Ooooh!

[QF A330]

She is still flying to all you gen Z folks and the J/C Chairman's lounge love her and remember her impeccable service standards.

Pass the chux please.

[firepussy]

Why?
Have you been sick?
People like your wife have turned the domestic operation into a personal fiefdom that is resistant to change.How much leave does she have left to burn.Probably about 240 days.
The "beehives" have ruled the roost for 30 years or more.they have it all their own.I have seen them make younger crew cry.
They will not get their own way this time.No sweetheart deals with the company to shaft someone else to maintain their status quo this time.
Domestic as the name suggests does domestic flying.Different division,different culture(female)different history
Let them deal with their own problems.You know,the problems they created.Nothing lasts forever.Gotta move on someday.
Surely you the toyboy pilot husband can keep her in the manner to which she has become accustomed.

[QF A330]

Whoa.................... I wish that I had the brains to be a pilot or a F/A, I am retired albeit with some diminished assets to keep me in a coffee and beer or 2.

The younger crew (20+years) have her on a pedestal and supply her with a fresh chux and many napkins for every duty.

All that powder and rouge...Ooooh!... not duty free and that hurts.

Oh well off to somewhere in Oz tomorrow with a smile and too many satisfied customers to brag about.

How many L/H, and S/H crew have attained the age of retirement and still fly......and fly...........and fly..............

LSL is to be taken when due and retirement age means just that..........retire if you can afford to and live the rest of your life doing whatever you have worked for for.

[Domestos]

....writes.... "And most of the 30 year plus crew consider the 738 to be like a comfortable pair of slippers".

....would they happen to the same Lesbian Loafers that I am trying to champion at the Warehouse of Excellence???? Does she like to wear the ones with the 'carbon-nuetral' synthetic lining or the natural lamb's wool inserts??????

The beehives are a bunch of saggy breasted/dried up/husband-less/cat loving/Yardley talcum powder wearing bunch of pink cup cake tossers. I too have witnessed the way they speak to the younger MAM casual crew and it is appalling.

Yes ho-hum....these TAA beehives may have been flying waaaaay before my mum and dad even considered having sex to concieve me.....but that doesn't make them better flight attendants.

[QF A330]

The beehives are a bunch of saggy breasted, well maybe......./dried up/ husband-less no...../cat loving NO WAY /Yardley talcum powder wearing bunch of pink cup cake tossers HO HUM . I too have witnessed the way they speak to the younger MAM casual crew and it is appalling. You must be in a strange base as no crew would treat anyone with less than 100%respect, as with all of our customers.

[Domestos]

....in no particular order...but of equal importance:

1. Wet chux in handle [what do you use this for? to wipe down dirty overhead locker handles as you drag the cart up the aisle?]

2. Covering crew meals with table cloth to take down to Y/C galley [what's this all about...is it shameful for crew to be walking down the aisles with salad bowls and hot meals from J/C. Is it a sin to be seen eating???]

3. Single stacked splits drawers [hello? has anyone had the pleasure of working on the 'ass' end of the cart and having to run back to galley cos beehive needs you to get them a spicy tomato juice and a little bottle of brandy?]

4. Wet chux placed in between cart top and cory pots [hello? its not like we are going camping and need heat insulation for 2 days....who cares if the tea/coffee gets cold by the time you drag the cart up to row 23 in B zone]

5. Day bag eskie with wheels [I've made my bone about this many times in previous posts....and they still remain a sore point for me to this day. Why on earth would you want your day bag to be 'pimped up' to have an extending handle and wheels????? For goodness sakes beehives...if you don't have the strength to carry a day bag (full of your own 'cheap' Australis or Maybelline makeup), how the hell are you gonna rotate the door handle of your pokey 737 door?????????

OK....I'm getting off my anti-Domestic soap box now......:)

[Domestos]

Look the truth of the matter here is....the Domestics (as I am unfortunately at this stage one of) do things very different....bordering on the occult. Domestics get so caught up in the little micro things that (a) are inconsequential or (b) there is nothing you can humanly do anything about. Eg...opening up a meal cart and finding no portioned controlled waters on the trays.....WHO CARES!!!! Just deal with it and think outside the square...use a water jug on top of cart. Another example....nil onload of artificial sweetner....WHO CARES!!!!!.....again.....3 pillows short in J/C...WHO CARES!!!!!!!!

Flying with ex LH crew are the best...life is chill, life is controlled, and life is orderly. Seriously though, Domestics need to learn to chill.....they dart around like manic crystal-meth addicts....calm down sisters or you'll end up getting a bleeding nose from all your panicking. Flying domestic is intense.....everything is such a DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QF A330]

Domestos, what can we say..........without any form of malice, you are a master of the English language.

You have mentioned some but not all of my wife's habits, but then again she still has a few more years until retirement, and with many more 6 monthly EP's ..........which used to be yearly with a 6 month oral check (keep it nice) which.

When EP's are on the horizon I head off somewhere for to avoid pre EPA stress and have a week of me time with no "BRACE BRACE BRACE" conversation in the house.

Anyway EP's are due in a few months and new amendments to the manual are out so I may go to BUE for a drink or 3 and enjoy the impeccable service of QF L/H crew (I mean it)

[S/H 737]

Domestos,
don't insult demented crystal meth atics there far moore entertaining. Yes I love your accurate observations of the bizarre world of women in 737s,
Yes it is torturous napkin alert, chux alert but you must be a man I am sure only women understands these strange rituals
or very anal alternative males with immaculate grooming:)

[Domestos]

LOL. Heterosexual men can be anal retentive when it comes to nasal hair trimming you know. Yes I am a Friend of Dorothy.....though I got tired of walking with that self-centred girl along the yellow brick road and decided to make my own way to the Emerald City.

Sorry to offend anyone....I'm not having a swipe at individuals....more at the institution and culture than individual people. Its all good babe....there's still love in my heart....every now and then we need to step back and take a look at ourselves from a different perspective.

I could give Pan Ann so much material on the Domestics, that she could make 2 movie length feature films.....

Once again.....no malice or hatred to anyone....just poking fun for the sake of a (cheap and perhaps immature) laugh.

[S/H 737]

I enjoy your observations about those old girls on the 737's keep entertaining us and dont forget to line that drink tray its time for another water round :ok:

[OCCR]

very amusing domestos, I really look forward to your posts.
keep them up......your observation skills are amazing.

:D:D:D:ok::ok::ok:

[QF skywalker]

Can I ask that everyone removes the image of all S/H crew being beehives. HELLO !! It's 2009 !! We're a different bunch now....we are all mostly early to late 20's,30's,40's. Times have changed..yes there is still a few of the oldies getting around, but there is also a lot of crew that were hired back in 1999&2000 which means that many of us have now been flying at least 10 years and don't deserve that label.

Yes I'm over tuckshop arms, fat bums and awful attempts at hair from some of them. I use their silly chux to wipe my hands, I don't let them use the whole jumpseat soley for their bum, I sign in first at the hotel and if I want a salad - I'LL BLOODY HAVE IT.
This is the new shorthaul. Beehives do not rule anymore. GEN X and Y are here. It's all about me me me. Blah Blah Blah.

We don't care about flying L/H...yes some do, but seriously most don't.
Don't worry about S/H stealing your flying, worry about Jitconnuct and QCCA .

Finally, I hope no-one loses their job. We are all NICE people.

Domestos - seriously...you rock....hilarious !! I look forward to your next post. Keep it coming.

[GalleyHag]

QFA330

See even Ep's are a DRAMA for your wife. She has been flying 30 years you say? Gezz I have a quick flick the night before after 30 years and an amendment here and there I see no point in putting myself under such stress for something that should be well and truely entrenched in her by now. I could only imagine what she must be like to work with.

Domestos.... loving it. All sooooo very true.

[OCCR]

skywalker...
I sign in first at the hotel

that's a shame that you are so disrespectful skywalker, last thing I expected from you.:ouch:

[QF skywalker]

OCCR I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm very respectful to those who deserve it - and that is the majority. Which means I normally sign in last. :cool:

Anyway OCCR...I'm ' just a domestic ' as you say. I'm the type that try and 'stitch up the A380' behind your back so wouldn't you expect that from me ? :ugh:

[OCCR]

Arent you ex AO crew?

Anyway, one thing I try and separate is the fact that 95% of the "domestics " are good people and are excellent at their jobs and have Morals, its the Domestic FAAA that is untrustworthy.:D

[ditzyboy]

Today in the SYD crew lounge I overheard two beehives talking. One was whining about an issue with Allocations. The other says

"But don't they know who you are?"

I laughed out loud - couldn't resist! When will these women learn that they matter no more to Qantas than the juniors or the MAMs they berate so much. What happened that created such a sense of entitlement and superiority amongst these women?

Get over yourselves! Or better yet - leave. Short Haul may indeed become a better place.

[whatever6719]

Im glad you made that distinction OCCR!
Its nice to hear (even though its all too rare) something positive and respectful
about each other. We have to keep foremost in out minds that we have to stick together during these times of inevitable change. We need to set aside and move on from the errors of the past and work towards a more united
future. Wherever you read these days, commentators say that QF will be a completely different beast in 5 years time so, with that in mind, we also need to evolve. If ever there was a time for both divisions of the FAAA to put aside their differences and work together it is now!! The company must love reading all the various posts on Pprune and see us all at each others throats. Their tactics of divide and conquer are all on display to the world and they can sit back and watch us destroy each other.........Well, we need to be better that that!!
So, if anyone from the FAAA LH and SH is reading this, you need to get with it as this may be the only chance you may have.

[Trollywally]

Whats this thread about again???

[iriver88]

argusmoon: Why in this current economic environment, where Australians are being put out of work,should an Australian Company have a foreign base?
Now is a good time to centralize the business and remove duplicated costs.
The closure of the AKL base is another option that needs to be looked at

There are reasons they do that, it's like saying to General Motors why don't they just shut their Holden factories here in Adelaide and Victoria since in this economic climate, it makes sense not to make their Holden badges in Australia and shift every job back into Detroit, esp since General Motors is now tax payers funded, but I did not see an immediate closure of Holden factories here in Australia (which BTW would be devastating for Australia: thousands of jobs will be shown the door, including dealers, spare parts manufacturers etc) Companies have their reasons for having an overseas staff presence.

[ditch handle]

Right...........:}

[Pegasus747]

The International FAAA represents INternational Crew, The Domestic FAAA represents domestic crew.

INternational Flight attendants at Qantas do not chase "domestic" work, do not conspire with the company to get domestic work and do not crave the lifestyle of the domestic flight attendant. They have made choices and are largely happy with them

On the other Hand the Domestic division of the FAAA has conspired with management to get long haul flying with the regional flying grab and the use of MAM casuals. Just when International Flight Attendants thought we could put that behind us and move on and perhaps re-unite, those duplicitous officials of the Domestic FAAA have made another grab for International Flying. But this time its the A380 and they have the temerity to do it without again any discussion with their International Counterparts.

There will be no amalgamation of the two divisions of the FAAA until the domestic officials respsonsible for this behaviour are gone . QED

[surfside6]

There is no depth to how low this contemptible lot will go.They never learn.They just invent opportunities to back door LH CC.Unfortunately for them this is a different environment and the LH FAAA have been bitten once and will not be caught out again.
With this latest revelation whatever sympathy anyone in LH may have had for them has evaporated.
There will never ever be one Union while the current domestic union executive draw breath.
Turn the whole bunch over to Jetstar and be done with it.
Contemptible swines

[funbags]

surfside;

Sort of reminds me of the behaviour of the long haul flight attendants when they voted up the last EBA, thereby screwing over the QCCA guys. Looking after themselves, not unlike the domestics. Contemptible swines!

You guys reckon short haul are bad hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

And re old hosties and criticizing the short haulers, have you ever looked at the old boilers who get off the la flights. OMG, wouldn't be a person under 50! Ever heard of the saying with the words pot and kettle in it. :ugh:

[ditch handle]

Oh oh, he's stopped taking his medication again. :rolleyes:

Nurse.....! NUUUUURSE.....!!!

[Pegasus747]

LH crew did not screw the QCCA crew, they made them part of the one EBA and in doing so got them considerably better than Team Jetstar positions and the jobs ended up in Australia as opposed to New Zealand or BKK

they get 6 weeks annual leave, sick leave, the same cash meal allowances as QAL crew, dry cleaning card, staff travel and access to CSS and CSM positions

Lets compare that with the MAM casuals that the SH crew have used like a CHUX ...no sick leave, no annual leave, no staff travel and some of them working 160 hours a month to get a decent income..

Hypocrisy??? lol the SH Beehives not only take the cake they BAKE it lol literally

[call button]

Pegasus... Maybe you should compare the pay and conditions of QCCA and QD. QD are on MUCH better pay, and also enjoy sick leave, holiday pay, and staff travel, and access to CSM positions. We at shorthaul were all amazed that they got such a great deal.

And, you are always critizising the pay and conditions of MAM casuals. Sure they didn't/don't get the benefits enjoyed by permanent employees, but they sure were earning the dollars. I won't post amounts on here, but believe me if they chose to work 160 hours a bid period, they were extremely well renumerated.

[blackguard]

No matter what spin or defense you apply to what the domestic FAAA have attempted it is still appalling.
It displays a total lack of ethics and consideration for others.
A disgrace

[ditzyboy]

We at shorthaul were all amazed that they got such a great deal.

Great deal? No ability to see their roster more than 14 days out. No FWA. No bidding. No base transfers.

A great deal when compared with what? Certainly not the conditions you, nor I, 'enjoy'. Whilst the QD conditions are semi-decent they are certainly not what I would call 'great'.

Besides. Hasn't our union effectively locked the HARDWORKING, LOYAL MAM crew out of these positions to protect FWA?! Imagine being in a MAMs shoes, seeing all these off-the-streeters employed under QD whilst being forced to stay casual so the full-timers can dump their CBR returns.

We are told this is due to IT system issues. Yeah right. Or if it is that much an issue we should be looking at what else can be changed to facilitate MAMs becoming QD.

Or are MAMs not as important to the FAAA as the ability to dump trips? Certainly seems that way!

Lets compare that with the MAM casuals that the SH crew have used like a CHUX... Hypocrisy??? lol the SH Beehives not only take the cake they BAKE it lol literally

Short Haul - where it's all about ME. :yuk:

[indamiddle]

funbags, i'm with u on the quokka thing. short haul started the crap with no bands for transferees. we need a mob from both short and longhaul to turf out the incumbents in control of the 2 divisions, egt new leadership that will work together, not against each other. company must be peeing their pants laughing about the two divisions backdooring each other.

[lowerlobe]

Whilst crew are in different unions and see only the view from their own backyards the company wins.....

Don't forget that the company has always used any excuse to lower pay and conditions of it's employees.There will always be those who are swallow the company line and will give in.....but remember the company has been caught out many times trying to pull a fast one.

Here's a question for Pegasus...How many times since you agreed to a reduction of one crew member on the 4 class 747 has the company fulfilled their promise to put them back on if the pax load is above a certain percentage?

Is it also true that the recent excel award ceremony was held on the Royal Carribean Cruise ship,Rhapsody of the Seas.....This must have cost a fortune when they could haver held it in the newly refurbished $10 million center of excrement.

Now they are telling everyone that they have to get rid of nearly 2000 staff....

Before you start having a shot at each other remember who the real opposition is and what they're aim is.....

[Pegasus747]

Lowerlobe, i know some of this stuff was always difficult for you to understand when you were flying but it must be even harder for you now when you just lob these things from the golf course.

If you were a long Haul flight attendant like you claim, you would know that crew complement has never been in the underlying 1974 award nor any of the 8 EBA's negotiated by a plethora of officials over 20 years.

The company determines the crew complement and always have. The company never promised to put additional crew on depending on load, it was a stupid comment made by one manager at crew briefings that the company couldnt deliver on or manage effectively

Totally agree on the whole excel thing. To be honest i have always viewed them as a badge of shame, as many of the recipients are shameless self promotors who have chased the badge.

I personally think that the great unsung heroes in our ranks who would never receive one are more deserving of recognition but of course that would never happen.

As for it being held on a cruise ship on the harbour replete with all the usual hangers on i can only say the say thing is that the ship didnt hit an iceberg because you could have effectively wiped out the current surplus in management in one fell swoop and gotten rid of the most deserving recipients of a redundancy package

[OCCR]

too funny.......lol .......pegasus.
Yes an iceberg is correct....

How true, anyone with any decency views the Excel badge as a shameful thing to wear, anyway the Kiwi crew are getting copies made up in Asia...

I like many people would never ever wear one......they really have to get rid of the program or fundamentally change it.....what a joke!:D

[whatever6719]

Never a truer word spoken Peg about the unsung heroes and those that have the badges being self promoters. Not true in all cases of course but enough to make you question its validity. Its a real shame that those that bust their guts and have even still managed to maintain a small degree of pride in their job (and dare i say it, in the company) dont even get so much as a thanks from the office when going above and beyond their job description.

Anyway, the previous posts are spot on. We need to band together. Its not going to happen overnight but it will. This LH SH thing sometimes seems to be as intractible as the situation in the Middle East. Im probably going over the top but Im just really passionate about the idea of one union representing
us ALL. Can you imagine the possibilities!!
Anyway, for now ill just dream on.......

[lowerlobe]

I should have realised when the quote was from twiggs but you might be onto something here Pegasus ...Originally posted by twiggs
It is only being done because of lower than normal forward bookings.
On flights that are full, an extra crew member will be added on a case by case basis.
Posted by PegasusThe company never promised to put additional crew on depending on load, it was a stupid comment made by one manager at crew briefings that the company couldnt deliver on or manage effectively

However....I had the misunderstanding that the union was there to protect the conditions and keep an eye on the company...
The company determines the crew complement and always have.
Did you...sorry the union ever suggest other options so as to negate the company's idea to cut cost by reducing the crew complement?

Pegasus..do you still have those muffin mornings...maybe you should get back to baking....

[Pegasus747]

i cant imagine the union ever suggesting that we reduce crew complement. When i first heard the suggestion my immediate thought is that you would then have additional crew sitting around and that would exaccerbate the surplus.

But it seems that the cancellation of planned recruiting overseas and the transfer of more international flying from Short haul has soaked up more or the surplus.

The Union in response has suggested the cancellation of all Bar Services - which has been acceded to

The Union has suggested the cancellation of the second meal service on short sectors into and out of Australia from Asia which is at this time sitting with Marjketing- and looks like being replaced with a bulk service

The Unions also suggested that the 16 crew be kept on the 4 class aircraft flying to JNB and QF9/10 due to time and pax load which is currently being assessed.

If you can think of something constructive to offer other than the usual drivel and criticism i am sure we would all be grateful.

There are some armchair experts in here that clearly act like roosters that think that the sun only comes up to hear them crow

[lowerlobe]

The Union in response has suggested the cancellation of all Bar Services - which has been acceded to
Yes Peg..That was a huge win for you....:D

And Yes we have all seen the numerous occasions when you have relented.....sorry worked with the company over the years so as to be flexible.....

I have talked to crew and the reduction of one crew member is a huge win with them.....just like the proverbial finger in the dam trying to stem the flow of water .....it just does not work but in response doing away with the bar.....an act of genius.

How about things .....like lowering the divisor across the board or the company using crew who want to be at home more often to work in the terminal as traffic staff (it's not as if the company ever has too many people meet an aircraft) ....or is anything you don't think of or get the company to agree to drivel...

Get that oven going Pegasus and start baking those muffins.....

[Bad Hat Harry]

As usual your rantings are irrelevant.Just as you were when you were flying.You dont fly any more so butt out unless you can add something constructive.

[Pegasus747]

Oh God Lowelobe, you just dont get it to you..you poor old dear

Now given that the company has announced 1225 ground staff to go, i am sure an offer from LH flight attendants to do their work while working for less money with a lower divisor will really endear us to the poor sods in ground staff losing their jobs...let alone the ASU

Please i really do suggest that they take your internet away in the nursing home as your dementia is getting worse

[indamiddle]

lowerlobe, your suggestion about working in traffic... no good.
.............. '' '' '' lower divisor to save f/a positions.... i think those quokkas under the gun would be extremely enthusiastic about it. maybe, it would generate some goodwill between qals and quokkas.
bring on one union with one decision making body for all flight attendants

[OCCR]

I'm sure most crew would be willing to lower the divisor to ensure that our fellow colleagues (both QAL QCCA) do not lose their jobs.
BUT first......and very important........close the offshore bases!:mad:

[call button]

I have heard (so I don't know whether it's true or not) that the shorthaul union are looking at the possibility of lowering everyone's working hours as an alternative to CR, should it become necessary. Apparently 110 hrs per bid period for full time, and I don't know about part time. I would imagine that should this become a necessary alternative to CR, it would have to be put to a vote and accepted by a majority. I wonder how many people would be willing to accept lower hours and pay to save the jobs of others??

[DEFCON4]

Most CC in LH would have no problem in lowering hours to save jobs and prevent CR....in LongHaul.
This current situation will prevail for about 18 months and then its business as usual...whatever 'usual" is.
This industry just does not stop changing.Probably why many of us love it so much

[jungle juice]

Pegasus747,Do you think you could discuss this without the personal attacks and sarcasm?

I don't agree with LL's idea about working on the ground but I do agree with the lowering of the divisor and if it helps to prevent job losses then it's worth looking at.It would be far better than reducing the crew number because as we all know the company once it has something will never give it back.
If you think that the company will give us back the crew then you are the one suffering from dementia.

All we get from the union is this is the way it is and we get attacked if we dare suggest anything.Pegasus747,your arrogance is outstanding

[Crossing Guard]

You are confusing arrogance with intelligence.Peg posts intelligent and concise information.A font of knowlege he is.Before making comment he does the research.Most posts here are made without research or knowlege just stupidity.
Why O why would we work on the ground and make the situation worse for those already there?.We would need to be trained for a start.The relationship with those groundstaff at airports is generally good.Lets keep it that way.
JJ you reside in Melbourne.Nuff said

[Pegasus747]

get off the cross we need the wood.


I dont attack people to make rational sensible decisions but if i am attacked as being some company lackey or imbecile that doesnt think things through then i am going to respond. If you dont like it too bad.

I am not going to change because some can dish it out but cant take it when given back. if you cant stand the heat as they say.....

As far as suggestions of lowering the divisor i think the union has indicated in a couple of newsletters that they will explore every option to avoid compulsory redundancy.

If you think that they are going to give the company a list of things that they have considered then you are loopy.

the fAAA LH dont trust the company but they do have to work with them. They have learned over MANY years that if you offer something they will take that and want even more.
IF and i stress IF it ever gets to the stage of last on first off redundancy for LH crew it will be after Many members meetings, where every possible alternative has been explored with the membership.

Despite what you may think of My personal arrogance, the one thing i can say about the current officials is despite the rhetoric about them, they have delivered greater job security than would be expected under the circumstances.

the proof of the pudding is in the eating. jetstar have closed bases, and VB have already announced crew redundancies. There is no suggesstion of LH crew being made redundant and i would suggest that there will not be any announced by the company before some very detailed discussion with the FAAA and i am sure you would hear from them first not the company.

just as some of those tossers in the media are speculating about the demise of Qantas i personally dont see that coming and am not prepared to contemplate CR for LH crew in the current environment.

you can say you dont agree with my views or arrogance but if you can point out where i have actually predicted something incorrectly or stated something that was incorrect at fact please point it out

[OCCR]

Pegasus
Even though we have disagreed in the past I always find your posts informative and very amusing (not as good as domestos) but close.
Keep up your informative posts and always add your wicked sense of humour....as far as JJ goes, as stated in a previous post he is from Mel...that says it all.

[S/H 737]

Oh Pegasus,
how adroit your observations on the friendship farm aboard the HMS Excrement, I totally agree re those shameless badge chasers and the usual sycophantic hangers on worming their way around,,,,indeed those managers who do bugger all those that come straight out of the June Dalley Watkins School of refinement must surely be walking the gangplank to retrenchment.
They are a waste of space and money> Can anyone please tell me what they do that helps crew to do their jobs more effectively ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

[S/H 737]

Pegasus,
where did you hear of this figure. How many from Cabin Services will be effected???

[Pegasus747]

my understanding is that of the 1750 employees earmarked for CR about 500 are managers and the rest are other staff of the non crew variety.

I dont know how many from cabin services, and despite my differences with many of them i am not enjoying the prospect of anyone losing their livlihoods.

No matter how we regard them or their competence many of them have made Qantas their lives as we have and its a very sad time

[Machinegun Fellatio]

Lets not forget that some in Cabin Services who may lose their jobs have been responsible for others being shown the front door.
What you send around comes around.Fatboy Slim is a case in point.A paricularly unpleasant person.As a manager you are required to be objective.This person personalizes everything.Anger and vengance are just two of his more delightful qualities.If he goes I will not shed a single tear

[S/H 737]

Pegasus,
I respect your point re losing your livlihood, however there are many managers in Cabin Services who gladly turned their backs on many of our colleagues. I find it hard to feel sympathy for those who were ruthless. However I believe in Karma not ill will.

[Pegasus747]

sadly,

when redundancy occurs you often lose some very good people. BCG will probably be quite indiscriminate and we end up keeping some of the ones we would least like to survive and lose some of the ones that have really engaged and got it right.

Last on first of provides order but not always the best outcome. Some view it as fair and some dont . I find it easier to try and avoid it at almost any cost.... i went through it in the 90's and it was horrible then and still is now :(

[surfside6]

Was totally out of order.
You should retract it old son.

[Pedota]

I'm going to take a risk here . . . so please be gentle!

Having read all the posts on this thread very carefully, and with the greatest respect to all the intelligent and informative posters, it seems to me that the merge between Qantas and Australian Airlines (nee TAA) has not worked.

The real test of any merger is when the going gets tough and the extent to which the proponents withdraw into their respective corners. A cursory reading of these posts indicates this is what is going on.

Following this logic, why doesn’t the company again split into ‘international’ and ‘domestic’ operations . . . and let them each compete against the integrated Jet*?

But even more poignantly, I have to say that as a very frequent customer I don’t even understand the real differences between SH and LH except as an accident of history . . . most of the posters are speaking in a language (terms, condition, EBAs, etc) beyond what the paying punters understand.

But what do I know . . . ??

[Pegasus747]

thats probably the most accurate post i have ever read in here lol

the merger between Australian Airlines and Qantas was a nightmare from a cabin crew perspective when crew started moving from their traditional area of work into the other. If SH and LH had just replicated TN and QF there wouldnt have been any problems but the TAA girls who had been rejected as Qantas Flight Atendants years before were desperate to be International Flight Attendants and the ACTU ensured that got their seniority. that was the start of ALLLLLLLLL the problems

Since then its just been pure tribalism

[OCCR]

iirriver88.......... your post is probably one of the most offensive I have seen on here...you now have zero credibility.

Machine gun...from memory all the flight attendants that have been shown the door (not that many) were mostly tossers that we all hated flying with anyway!
i cant think of one that didn't deserve to be walked out the door, actually what is most annoying is that many of them got a package to leave!

Some of the clause 11 may have been dubious at best! however the remarks from the majority of crew when those nightmare f/a were shown the door was " about time"

As far as those managers go well I don't want to see any of them lose their jobs, I have never had a problem with any of them as I have always done my job!

[Machinegun Fellatio]

There were several who were shown the door and didnt receive a package.These people were treated very poorly indeed.Two are friends.They are not tossers but just happened to fit into a particular demographic.One is now very sick as a direct result of the treatment received at the hands of FBS.
He deserves to be booted out for the unecessary misery he has caused.
Which particular "nightmares"did you have in mind?
The reason they received a package was down to incompetent way their cases were handled.Not only did management not follow their own protocols.They didnt know what the protocols were.
They were laughed out of the commission and rightly so

[ditch handle]

One nasty, vindictive and spiteful piece of work. Can't wait to see the back of fat boy slim AKA "the bearded lady".

The "visitors" really have brought nothing positive to the company with most quite obviously relishing their brief to harass, intimidate and bully.

Forgive me for the corporate speak but "The business" will be so much better off without The Tarrantular, The Kiwi Sociopath and the Bearded Lady.

Bye bye visitors, hello re-engagement. :ok:

[Domestos]

hmmmm....I would have to agree with my fellow cart-pushers on this one....the attempt at portraying an analogous relationship between managerial function/responsibility and defecation was inappropriate and disturbing. The individual in question should perhaps consider alternative ways to express such resounding sentiments in the future.

Pegasus747...were the Beehives not successful in getting into Qantas because it was always traditionally crewed by the stewards?

Does anyone know what is going to happen to the Warehouse of Excellence? Next month's bid books don't show any conscriptions. I am sooooo happy this factory warehouse (formerly occupied by previous tenants...the manufacturers of Noni-B women's apparel) has been temporarily shut down (if that case may be). I wasn't looking forward to dreaming up some strange exotic toilet-seat acquired disease to put on my sick leave form in order to chuck a sickie for the day.

Oh THANK YOU LORD for sparing me the inhuman agony of being drowned in the fem-centric gushes of the Customer Service department et al. and how we need to be 'Energetic' [puke:yuk:], 'Intuitive' [vomit:yuk:] 'Caring' [cringe:yuk:] etc. Thank you Lord for also not subjecting me to the teeth-pulling sufferring of having to sit with a stranger from some obscure part of the company (like forward bookings yield management) and having to talk about what they do and what I do....blah! blah! Sorry have to puke again [puke:yuk:]

[kotoyebe]

Domestos,

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe that guy from "forward bookings yield management" is also cringing about going to the warehouse of excellence and having to sit next to a too perfectly groomed, "hey I wear a FA uniform", limp wristed, shallow, flight attendant? If the W of E is really going to close, then he will also thank the Lord that he doesn't have to listen to FA's talking about how to perfectly line a tray and correctly pour a glass of wine "in the air, darling!"

And, no, I'm not from "forward bookings yield management". Also, there is probably not much point in yield management on past bookings. But of course you wouldn't need to know that as the airline revolves around FA's, so there's no point knowing what other people do in the airline.

[captainrats]

Women were largely excluded from Qantas as its history was predominantly male.The flying boats were crewed by ex merchant navy personnel.The managment felt that because of the arduous nature of flying it was best done by men.There were hostesses but they made up less than 10% of crew numbers.If you were female and wanted to fly the domestic carriers were the best choice.It was only in the mid 80s that Qantas started balancing up the male/female ratio.Today mor than 70% of Qantas(LH) CC are female.
For some reason Ansett and Qantas crews got on better with each than did TAA.
The tribalism we see today had its nexus in the 60s and 70s.Its basically down to the resentment that TAA crew have toward QF crew.Tall women in comfortable shoes ruled TAA while the blokes ran Qantas.Imagine the glee when TAA took Qantas over.
Jimmy bowtie bought all his mates into fill QF management positions.The Redtail men were removed.So began the Qantas demise.Borghetti was one of the last of those men

[Domestos]

I think someone fed me bull:mad: when I first became a flight attendant....I geniunely thought that the airline was only made up of flight attendants (limp wrists and other flexible body parts) and pilots...perhaps a few ground staff who operate the CitiFlyer check in desk during the week....but that's it. You will have to excuse me for my ignorance as I have been ill-informed all this time. [Note to myself....read more Cabin Crew News to find out about other people + investigate the company telephone directory and try to add more friends to Facebook].

If you are gonna have a personal slur at me for being 'limp wristed' etc., then babe, you are gonna have to try a wee bit harder....I'm simply more handsome, taller, broader, and well endowed than you.......and with that comes a lot of thick skin.

Try as you may....I'm simply not interested in meeting someone who works in telephone sales or yield management or the person who dry cleans the inseat covers.....I'm at Qantas to work and earn money to put bread (and sometimes pink fluffy cupcakes) on the table.....not to indulge in expanding my social horizons.

Now if you'll excuse me...I have some hair to shave off the bottom of my feet......DARLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[Domestos]

...I forgot to add.....can I borrow your Epi-lady?

[S/H 737]

I'm laughing so histerically i have just caught my @$$#@@@@ in the emjoy gently !!!!!!!!!!:D

[flyergirl]

Just wondering, it has been VERY quiet on the information front from all. Usually get bombarded with emails etc, but since the announcement- NOTHING. Anyone have any idea when we might find out what our collective future might hold?

[jungle juice]

as far as JJ goes, as stated in a previous post he is from Mel...that says it all.
Here again is the FAAA cheer squad and the funny part is that someone from Macquarie Fields is having a shot at people from Melbourne but then that would make sense if you don't wear ugg boots wouldn't it.
OCCR if you have finished patting Pegasus on the back how about some answers.Did the union suggest any alternative to reducing the crew by one and by doing making the crew surplus even larger?
Of course they did,they don't need any advice and know everything.The company must be shaking in their boots every time they meet.
I suggested an alternative to reducing the crew complement and all I received in return was the usual ridicule from the faaa supporters team that is activated here whenever they are asked a question that they are uncomfortable with.

It looks as though the S/H union is not the only one with dictatorial leadership.

[mrpaxing]

some time JJ, to realise, that Il Duce MM and Propaganda chief SR run their owm little kingdom:cool:

[blackguard]

There arent many CC posters on PPrune.Just the usual suspects who are the self appointed keepers of the moral high ground....JJ et al.
You do not reperesent the moajority opinion in either domestic or LHaul.
The majority of those in LH are happy with the association and its conciliatoy approach to the company.
Dixon has gone and circumstances have changed .Joyce appears not to be dysfunctional.
Critcize whatever you like but be proactive,do some research and come up with some sensible alternatives to those that you lampoon.
To date its all criticism and nought else.As has been pointed out Melbourne seems to be the home of the lunatic fringe.Particularly the domestics.The back door bennies who want to do secret deals with the company without consultation with theri long haul colleagues.
If you post here expect to be held accountable and stop bleating when you are not agreed with or are in turn lampooned

[jungle juice]

There arent many CC posters on PPrune
You are right there blackguard and in fact it seems as though the name guard seems to pop up with monotonous regularity with those supporting the union.
Mrpaxing,I have to agree with you and it doesn't take much to notice the idea of lowering the divisor is not an idea that they want to hear.
if all they can do is poke fun at Melbourne then their list of ideas is incredibly thin.
I still did not get an answer but thats par for the course.

[OCCR]

jj...
I don't know the answer to your questions as I am not on the union.

If you take the time to read my previous posts you will find that I have been very critical of the FAAA and they have attacked me on this site quite a few times, However I agree with many of the things the current officials put into action.
I think they have done an outstanding job with the last EBA and they have the support of the current LH membership.

You have to give them credit where its due, who would want their job having to listen to people like you all day.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

Before you start criticizing the officials maybe you should start asking questions around that Luna Park base of yours and see if its true that they have approached management to do separate deals!

[blackguard]

So now we have a conspiracy?
No wonder the domestics are in such disarray.
Next you will worrying about someone with the "mudguard" username

[Pegasus747]

I am sure that there are many crew that are prepared to take a pay cut with a reduced divisor. but i think at this stage its not something that the majority want to do.

I appreciate that many are prepared to take the pay cut sacrifice by reducing the divisor but as the Union has just said in a newsletter it hasnt got to that stage yet

[flyergirl]

now that you're all done, back to the question! Has anyone had any further information about what is happening? The silence from all has been deafening!

[Pegasus747]

QANTAS MEDIA SPECULATION

Some members have been rightly concerned about some of the quite irresponsible journalism that has been evident in newspapers and on television and radio recently. In what can best be described as a media feeding frenzy, speculation about the ongoing viability of the Qantas Group has been plastered all over the place.

Much of the speculation has been around Qantas’ announced job cuts across the group, and this has naturally concerned Long Haul Flight Attendants. As I indicated in my last newsletter to you, we are working closely with the Company to manage the surplus from the downturn in flying in the Long Haul Division. At this stage we are comfortable that the efforts that crew have already made via the EBA, reduced absenteeism greater productivity and a range of leave and leave burn options have placed in what I believe to be a good position to avoid job losses.

As I have said previously, if there is any sudden change to the status quo we would immediately advise you. We have received many emails from members who are also offering solutions to the problem of the surplus and we encourage crew to continue to give us feedback.

Naturally many of the suggestions have already been worked through with the Company but occasionally something comes up that hasn’t been considered. I know that many of you are eager to meet as a group and you will have an opportunity to do that at the meetings that have already been announced.

If there were to be any urgent need to consult the members we would advise you immediately of changed meeting dates and times. At the moment Michael Mijatov is on Long Service Leave Burn like many of our members and Lee Lam and I are working with Qantas Industrial Relations with our IR team to make submissions to the Award Modernization Process as a result of the changes to the Federal Industrial Relations laws.

Award Modernization is very complex as we are writing a brand new award for all flight attendants in Australia. It will be the minimum conditions that Flight Attendants can work under and obviously all flight attendants including Regional and Domestic crew are making submissions to the AIRC as are all the employers.

Our deadline for these submissions is drawing to a close in the next couple of weeks. Long Haul crew who have always worked under an EBA need not be concerned about this process but it is essential that we make sensible submissions and try to reach agreement where possible with the major employers. Although the new laws are superior to Work Choices they still have many complexities.

Below are the details of the meetings scheduled for the next couple of months. Prior to the meetings, Michael Mijatov will be attending the ACTU congress and following that we should be in a far better position to give a longer-term outlook on the position of Qantas. As you can imagine, our discussions with the Company are ongoing, and the last thing we want crew to think is that we are not exploring every avenue to protect ALL crew jobs.

We have received some suggestions from crew which may become necessary for wider discussion with the membership if the longer term future for flying does not improve. Following widespread ACTU comment some members have suggested reduced divisors. We do not believe that it is necessary to contemplate this at the moment.

Our QCCA members are working to lower divisors, which do not affect base pay but makes more work available to the QAL crew. This is a cost to the company but one that is being borne as a result of the continuing cooperation of Long Haul crew to assist the business to manage in the current circumstances.

There are still large leave balances in the Domestic area of the business and the Company is in discussion with the SH FAAA about leave burn processes. This will allow Qantas the flexibility to flex work around across the divisions to ensure no job losses anywhere at this stage. Long Haul Crew have already undertaken this over the last few years.

As always you have our commitment to your best interests; please show your commitment by attending the meetings.



SYDNEY MEETING DATES

9th, 10th, 15th, 19th, 22nd, 25th, 26th June

Venue: FAAA Office, 1st Floor,
20 Ewan Street MASCOT
Tel: (02) 8337 1111

BRISBANEMEETING DATES

16th, 17th, 18th June

Venue:Queensland Council of Unions, Level 5, TLC Building,
16 Peel Street, SOUTH BRISBANE
Tel: (07) 3846 2468

MELBOURNE MEETING DATES

11th 12th, 23rd, 24th June

Venue: Trades Hall & Literary Institute, Annexe Room Level 1,
54 Victoria Street cnr Lygon Street
CARLTON SOUTH
Tel: (03) 9659 3549

All meetings will start at 10:30am and we anticipate them to finish at around 1pm.


Written and authorised by Steven Reed – President International Division

[flyergirl]

Finally! They must have read my mind....

[blackguard]

Does anyone read a newspaper?Does anyone contact the union?Does anyone attempt to form a commonsense opinion?
If its not the company's fault its the unions fault.
The company and union are not sheltered workshops for Cabin Crew.There are many who would like to think that they are.
Try to get hold of the big picture folks.The sky is not falling.Nor is it likely to.
Qantas has deferred aircraft delivery:taken older aircraft out of service and scaled back operations to loss making destinations.It has $3.5 billion in the bank and an undrawn credit facility of $500mil.Alan joyce is restructuring the mess that Dixon left him.
Qantas is not going broke.Not even close to it.It will make a profir this financial year.One of three non governent sponsored airlines to do so.
Bottom line :If Qantas goes broke then it will be an indication that the entire global aviation industry has collapsed.That aint gonna happen either.
So lets all calm down,take a deep breath and have faith in both Union and Qantas.Dixon is no longer running the place.If he was still here then you would have every right to be concerned.
He isnt so dont be

[jungle juice]

Let's not count our chickens yet as the jury is still out with the leprechaun.It is still early days but I believe that a lot of this crisis is media fed and generated.Qantas is arguably in the best position of any airline and long term will ride it out.If QF goes under then all the other airlines are in deep trouble.

If you take the time to read my previous posts you will find that I have been very critical of the FAAA and they have attacked me on this site quite a few times
You have to give them credit where its due, who would want their job having to listen to people like you all day
OCCR,let me see if I understand you.When you criticized the union it was acceptable and fair but when someone else does it they are a pain to deal with.That makes sense doesn't it.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: