Could you land if pilot died ?

[nannodnai]

Not much detail in this, but seems a terrifying scenario . . . . . . .

Passenger lands plane as pilot dies - AOL News (http://news.aol.co.uk/passenger-lands-plane-as-pilot-dies/article/20090415030049211474050)

. . . . . . . . and six people convinced they are really lucky to be alive ! !

[G-BPED]

Thread is running here: http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/369800-passenger-lands-king-air.html

[Avman]

As I understand it, the key point here was that the guy who landed it was in fact a (PPL?) pilot, albeit only sigle engine rated, and the owner of the a/c concerned - so had some basic knowledge of the a/c.

If (big IF) you have some aviation background and basic a/c handling skills (not FS) you might just be lucky enough to bring a single engined light a/c in. But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!

[Load Toad]

No but I could prepare a mean cocktail if we lost the cabin crew.

[Final 3 Greens]

I'd fancy my chances in a King Air, so long as I had someone on the radio to vector me to a suitable landing airfield and a King Air pilot to talk through the procedures (e.g. turbine engines) and handling. Then again, I have a PPL and have a limited amount of experience on twins, including a Navajo and a lot of experience in the heavier light singles.

In a jet, I would only have a go if the prospect of disaster was greater if I didn't.

I have 15 hours training in a narrow body sim (some years ago) and recognize that it is a far different challenge.

[BelArgUSA]

This King Air passenger was actually a former PPL/SEP.
He was likely to have a pretty good idea as to what to do to fly the plane.
You might not have a swim since 20 years, yet if falling in water, you remember how.
xxx
I have often invited "non-pilot guests" in simulators during training sessions.
Often, if some 15-20 minutes remained available, I offered them "to land" the airplane.
On autopilot, the only "dont touch switch" is the autopilot disconnect button.
Remember - when "pilots die" - 99% chances that the plane is on autopilot.
To my opinion, landing a Cessna or a Piper might present more problems than airliners.
In a 747 or any airliner - just move the correct switch as you are told.
xxx
These "guests" were told what to do, which switch to move, what heading or speed to dial.
Exactly like can be done on radio.
"Rotate selector clockwise in center of glareshield to LAND position"...
With autoland/autothrottle/autobrakes... you remain on centerline until stop after landing.
Just like magic...
xxx
:8
Happy contrails

[Ten West]

Could I land if the pilot died?

Hmm... Probably, but I'd need a Hell of a lot of runway, and I'm not sure you'd be able to use the aeroplane again! :eek:

[ProM]

I am confident that I would give a higher probability of survival than the alternative of no-one trying

Anyway, its easy. Just follow instructions for down a bit, up a bit, left a bit until they tell you to flick the switch marked "Fully Automatic ILS". :E

[IRRenewal]

But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!

I have done quite a few simulator 'fun' sessions for one of the outfits who advertise on PPRUNE.

I'd say the FS 'Expert' has a much better chance to get the thing on the ground in one piece, because FS will have thought them which buttons to press to get it to do an autoland etc.

I have seen non-pilots on their first time ever in a full motion simulator do a decent job getting the thing around the circuit to an acceptable landing.

I have never seen an SEP rated PPL do the same.

[GroundedSLF]

Dont know - dont want to find out...

[L337]

Many years ago, In a land far far away, I used to fly a DHC-6 (Twin Otter) single crew out in the desert. I carried all sorts backwards and forwards, and one or two people were always out and back with me. One regular would sit in the right hand empty pilots seat, and from time to time would have a go at some straight and level. He became good enough so that I could then read a book. It had no autopilot, so I was always pleased to see him.

Eventually he announced that this flying lark looked easy and that he could land if I dropped dead. So I said, there you go, You have control, I am now dead.

We started level at 10,000'. He pushed the nose down to descend and trimmed it all out very nicely. So far so good. He did however forget to reduce the power, so I had to intervene before the wings blew off, and or, the engines over sped. We continued to hurtle downwards and at some ridiculous speed pointed it at the runway. With some lurching and pulling and pushing we got it lined up. He then decided that flaps would be a good idea. I had to prevent that from happening. Still going far to fast. The relationship between power speed and attitude was lost upon the novice, and I had to take it away from him to rescue me and him from imminent disaster.

He would have definitely have died, had I been dead.

[BSmuppet]

If (big IF) you have some aviation background and basic a/c handling skills (not FS) you might just be lucky enough to bring a single engined light a/c in. But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!

Really?

I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS. I have the 747-400 professional add-on. 95 page FMC manual for the fully functional FMC. Plus the overhead panel is fully functional and comes with a massive f-off manaul.

I'm also doing a PPL. When I was lucky enough (via friend of a friend ad infinitum)to be given a chance to land a 744 in a sim , guess what the landing was near perfect (a/p off at 1250ft localiser and GS established)- a far cry from when I first tried to land a 152 during my PPL.

"these things almost land themselves" could never be more true

[L337]

"these things almost land themselves" could never be more true

Gosh. I did not know that.

Next time the wind is gusting at 40 knots over the hangers at Heathrow, and the turbulence is so bad that I am having difficulty focusing on the wildly fluctuating airspeed, I shall remind myself of your sage observation.

God protect us from Flight Sim experts. :ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

I have never seen an SEP rated PPL do the same.

Also, please protect us from instructors who cannot apparently instruct, as I managed this with an airline TRE/IRE, using raw data and no automatics (just bl**dy good instruction.)

[BSmuppet]

L337,

when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!

The question was broad ok?. "Could you land a plane if the pilot died"

Now obviously if you want to "un"broaden the question to include things like a 40knot gust, landing at Kai Taks RWY 13, 2 engines failed on one wing on a 744, 10 plagues of Egypt at 100ft DH and general :mad: hell raining down on a 50 foot runway then obviously no

It was a broad question. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

do one L337

P.s I know Kai Tak is closed

[Final 3 Greens]

when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!


You must be joking :}

I thought L337 was quite restrained in his reply.

[Crusher1]

Having had a few efforts in a 737 sim I would say that landing one without any experience would be virtually impossible, a totally different ball game altogether to a C152.

I did manage a landing at Dublin eventually........on the grass though!!

[pulse1]

All possible hypothetical scenarios where a non pilot has to land a big jet assume that he can talk to someone who can tell him what switches to press, what headings to fly and what speeds etc.

So, the first step is to find someone to talk to. Ah! First problem. Which one is the Press to Transmit button? How many non pilots (or even PPLs) could find the P to T button first time? i.e. without first accidentally switching off the autopilot, at FL350 and Mach.7? Phew! How many PPLs could hand fly a B737 at that speed and live, let alone a non pilot? I wouldn't know because I've never done it.

I have landed a BA B777 simulator 5 out of 5 times (once at Jersey) but I still wouldn't rate my chances of doing it live for real. But I never had to find the P to T switch.

[wings folded]

While totally bored on a long haul flight I have every now and then pondered how things would work out if both pilots were incapacitated.

I imagine that the first course of action would be to try to see from the manifest if there was qualified flying crew dead heading.

If that and all else failed, would it not be a good idea to have somebody at least able to fly a bit, albeit with no experience on type, rather than just sit and wait for the fuel to dry up a bit?

With relays of advice / instructions from a suitably qualified or experienced pilot on the ground via ATC or directly, do you think that somebody who knows at least the basics of flying could pull off a sort of safe landing?

As a former PPL, now no longer flying, I did once have a bash in a 737 sim (a real one, not a Bill Gates pretend one).

My "instructor" gave me an engine fire on take off, just to add some fun, from Ringway, with fairly massive chunks of Peak District terrain close to hand and inevitably on the side the assymetry would naturally take one.

I did manage to get back down, and the printout the sim produced of the approach profile was, objectively speaking, not bad at all.

But it was only a sim. Would I have been calm enough / able enough if it was real?

I have also pondered how the cabin crew could identify anybody with flying experience without saying "we are a little bit bothered - both pilots are incapacitated - can any passenger fly an aircraft?"

That could be bad for morale.

My best attempt would be for an announcement to be made which would only make sense to aviators (e.g. we are squawking 7700)

Non aviators would tuck into their second gin and tonic, but aviators might make themselves known, and the best candidate to take over could thence be selected.

Any more informed views out there?

[Avman]

I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS.

Fell off my chair laughing! Just managed to get back on and:

when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!

Fell off the damn chair laughing again!

:ok: Thank you BSmuppet, you made my day.

[Topslide6]

I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you need to get out more. Seriously.

[Cosmos2]

I could land the King Air if the following conditions are met:

1. I know how to operate the radio.
2. ATC devoted to helping me.
3. No other traffic to worry about, no restrictions on where I can fly.
4. No time pressure, take as much time as I need.
5. Clear weather.
6. No wind.
7. Initial altitude high enough so that I am not in immediate danger of hitting terrain.
8. I can turn off the autopilot, adjust trim and maintain straight and level flight.
9. Take time to gain confidence by making small changes in bank, pitch, throttle, and so forth.
10. Practice descending under control at high altitude before attempting to descend all the way to the ground.
11. May need to practice with flaps and gear before attempting the actual landing.

Then follow the instructions and land.

[NudgingSteel]

No offence to BSm here but if a great-looking FS add-on is all it takes, you'd have to conclude that real pilots, with thousands of real hours, (and two of them in the cockpit at that), would get it right all the time in real life...

I've seen a few 'adult-interest' movies in my time, but would never claim to be John Holmes....

[Nicholas49]

"I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS."

I think that must be THE funniest comment I have EVER read on this website. Absolutely brilliant! Cannot stop laughing. And it is said completely seriously too! There's a whole world just outside your front door! ;)

Just you wait until the likes of Rainboe read your comments on FS "expertise"!

[PilotsOfTheCaribbean]

Could you land if pilot died?


Almost certainly, and on the assumption that I wasn't actually the pilot in question, then Yes!

However I couldn't promise it would be any smoother than normal.

[Contacttower]

"I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS."

Does sound slightly amusing I have to say...:)

However BSmuppet may well be right; some of the add-ons for MSFS like the PMDG designed 747-400 for example are very sophisticated (I got it to make IR practice on the computer more fun...) and as long as one has the systems knowledge to make the FMC work for you and with plenty of help from someone on the radio landing using the autopilot would probably be achievable.

[Michael Birbeck]

No you couldn .....


Give me the VREF ....:ok:

[Ten West]

I think I'd stand a better chance of arriving on the ground in one piece by looking for the black and yellow handle between my knees instead of trying to land it.

"Taxi for Martin Baker!" :O

[LH2]

The "PPL Landing Airliner" scenario has been done to death over the years.

However, say there you are sitting on the back of a Super Puma taking you to your offshore assignment when both pilots keel over. How do you fancy your chances of landing it on a moving ship? :E

[eliptic]

have 20 hours on RF super puma so plausible!:8 how much is ship moving?

[BSmuppet]

To the :mad:wits who decided to take the P1ss out of me, its nice to know that simple things ammuse you however please read Contacttower:

"However BSmuppet may well be right; some of the add-ons for MSFS like the PMDG designed 747-400 for example are very sophisticated (I got it to make IR practice on the computer more fun...) and as long as one has the systems knowledge to make the FMC work for you and with plenty of help from someone on the radio landing using the autopilot would probably be achievable"

I can also show you the printout from when I landed the 744 in the real sim.

Now of course to appease those idiots who took the p1ss out of me, obviously in real life I wouldn't bet on surviving with the added pressure of 300+ souls on board. Whilst the PMDG is as close to the real thing that you will get for £50 I wouldn't have a clue what to do if a circuit breaker failed. I'm not for one single nanosecond saying that Captain Monks should give me a job tomorrow for a LHR-SIN flight. Understand???

So NUDGING STEEL, why don't you go and do one right?

And if Zippy or Bungle (or rainboe what ever he is called) does come on here, hopefully he won't take the p!ss because he would have read my previous 2 posts. Which included the fact that I landed the 744 in a real sim when I got that amazing opportunity to do so.

[Nicholas49]

Please do show us the printout, I think we would all love to read it.

Pray tell - when you had your 744 sim experience, did you by any chance have a "real" pilot sitting next to you who configured the aircraft and coached you on what to do? Of course not, you did it all by yourself.

You're just digging yourself a hole...

Incidentally, sending offensive PMs won't get you too far either.

[BSmuppet]

No offence to BSm here but if a great-looking FS add-on is all it takes, you'd have to conclude that real pilots, with thousands of real hours, (and two of them in the cockpit at that), would get it right all the time in real life...

I've seen a few 'adult-interest' movies in my time, but would never claim to be John Holmes....

Nudging Steele

1. you'd have to conclude that real pilots, with thousands of real hours, (and two of them in the cockpit at that), would get it right all the time in real life...

Why would you have to conclude that? How on Gods earth can you come to that conclusion from what I said on my 2 posts?

2. I've seen a few 'adult-interest' movies in my time, but would never claim to be John Holmes....

Did I ever claim that BA should give me a job tomorrow?

[Final 3 Greens]

Keep digging muppet, this is going to be fun :ok:

Don't worry, Rainboe is not a p*ss taker :}

[BSmuppet]

Nicholas,

Yeah mate. I am digging a hole and its got your name written all over it.

Pray tell - when you had your 744 sim experience, did you by any chance have a "real" pilot sitting next to you who configured the aircraft, tutored you on what to do? Of course not, you did it all by yourself.

If you READ my post like I told you to do, you would be able to see this sentence:

(a/p off at 1250ft localiser and GS established)

Therefore it was configured!!!!! And no I didn't do it BY MYSELF. Please show me where I claimed I had????

Nicholas, the hole is ready by the way. Jump in.

But before you do, fancy saying a few more idiotic things? I'm not that busy today in the office. So I can keep coming back with quotes to completely negate every dumb thing you say.

[BSmuppet]

Incidentally, sending offensive PMs won't get you too far either:

For all those who are interested, this is my Pm to Nicholas:

Subject: got a problem?

PM: Got something to say mate?

Please tell me what was offensive about that?

[eliptic]

Bottom line is:

If i have 2 options:

1/ a A/C in this situation with no pax with no experience or "home simulator" experience.

2/ a A/C with a guy like muppet,,

In my humble opinion the only option is quite clear:\

[Nicholas49]

Something "dumber" than proudly announcing that you have "10,000 hours on FS" on a professional pilots' forum?

Keep digging :ok:

[BSmuppet]

Ok, thank you for that one enlightening sentence...

so.. any more come backs? Care to comment on the way I completely answered all of your facetious comments?

NO? Ok then. well the hole is ready. jump in.

[eliptic]

Nicholas:

Thats only 416.666666666667 24 hour flights,, hopefully with some sleep between:eek:

[BSmuppet]

haha. That was funny

And there was me thinking that certain Swedish statistics meant not many people had a sense of humour there.

Nicholas, I'm still waiting. Ran out of things to say?

I'll help you out. How about saying something funny like perhaps BSmuppet reckons he could have flown a Concorde and landed at City airport with runway to spare?

[Final 3 Greens]

Bottom line is:

If i have 2 options:

1/ a A/C in this situation with no pax with no experience or "home simulator" experience.

2/ a A/C with a guy like muppet,,

In my humble opinion the only option is quite clear

No, there is a third.

Dangle Charlton Heston from a S61 helicopter and let him climb in to the 747, whereupon he will land at the nearest available airport with Karen Black swooning.

This is a plausible as BSmuppet landing a real 747 in the real world.

[eliptic]

Hmm.. do 747`s carry parachutes??????:\

[BSmuppet]

Completely Agree Final 3 Greens,

yet I do think your post had a facetious side.

Could you please copy and paste a sentence from one of my many posts which claims that I could land a 747.

Nicolas/eliptic where are you? Come on surely there must be more things you can say to take the mick out of me. I've already given you one tip.

[eliptic]

Muppet,,

Hehe,, i have no experience to argue against what u say,,,im just amazed about the discussion,,,,,!!! i am neutral in this case,,just think 10000 hours in simulator is kind of loooooong time,,you never tought about take license and make money flying insted ????

[BSmuppet]

Of course I thought of it!

But hey, the £70'000 in cash just lying around made such a nice cushion for sitting on when playing so I thought why should I give it all to M'OL and drink paid for lukewarm coffee.

10'000 hours is an arbitrary number to all those who thought I was sad enough to have a log book of my Flight sim times! Just know that Ive been playing it since Flight sim 95. And consider I 'work' 9 hour days with a 2 hour commute, a wife and kids, its pretty obvious that I'm not a hermit.

[Contacttower]

There was a piece in Pilot a while ago by someone from the Old Sarum Flying Club who after reading the article in a previous edition by the editor and Bob Grimstead about this very subject decided to have a go in a 727 sim at Bournemouth. I forget what degree of help he was allowed but he did manage to land OK.

I think the guy had about 300hrs, IMC and MEP.

[eliptic]

Muppet

OK..anyway i know u have a better chance landing safe then me,,,so i slide the door at 1000ft and exit.......with my umbrella:p



Ps. "2 hour commute" did you not live in Midway island? Ds

[Avitor]

A wannabe has as much chance of successfully landing a passenger a/c as a cat has of pissing over the moon.

[Final 3 Greens]

MSmuppet

Could you please copy and paste a sentence from one of my many posts which claims that I could land a 747.

No, because my comments were replying to another poster, as you will see if you read my post again.

Contact tower

I did 15 hours in the old Trident sim, near Biggin.

With a highly effective TRE/IRE giving guidance, a PPL can pick up general handling on the sim in VMC fairly quickly, for after all an aeroplane is an aeroplane, even though the performance (speed and effects of inertioa, complex systems) are different.

Towards the end of the sessions, I felt quite comfortable taking off flying around and landing, even in strong crosswinds.

However, the experience did make me realise just how important multi crew coordination was, how much value the instructors experience added and how unlikely it would be that one could 'step up to the plate', solo, in the real world, in IMC etc....

I have said on other threads that if one pilot is incapacitated, a FA trained in company SOPs and checklists would be more useful to the other pilot than most PPLs.

Hell of an experience though and that's why I tend to smile when the flight sim brigade really think that they could fly a real airliner. I don't doubt that they have a good working knowledge of some of the systems and possibly a good instrument scan.

[G SXTY]

I had a go in a simulator when I was doing my PPL - someone had very kindly set it all up for me, configured and stabilised the beast, and given me CAVOK conditions and nil wind. I managed a couple of very nice landings and promptly concluded I could land an airliner if required.

Now that I actually fly an airliner (one without a magic autoland button by the way) I look back to my student pilot / flightsim days and realise I didn't know what I was talking about. Q400 pilots find the Q400 a bit of a handful to land - I'd love to see a PPL have a go.

Where's Rainboe when you need him? :)

[Rainboe]

Sorry, someone called? Haven't been following this thread- just searched my moniker to see who's being rude now! Lest anybody think it's easy, after flying the VC10 for 6 years, I was given a 747 sim circuit ride late one night, totally untrained on it. The outcome was not 'pretty'. I found it very odd. Let's say not everyone would have survived!

If it was easy, anybody could do it. They can't.

[Avman]

BSmuppet, stop it please! I'm laughing soo much that it's hurting me :)

[Ten West]

OK..anyway i know u have a better chance landing safe then me,,,so i slide the door at 1000ft and exit.......with my umbrellahttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Piece of cake. I've probably seen 6 hours of Mary Poppins in my time. How hard can it be? ;)

[LH2]

Something "dumber" than proudly announcing that you have "10,000 hours on FS" on a professional pilots' forum?

Actually, yes. At my IR school someone sent a CV claiming to have:

* A CPL
* A MEIR
* 200hr flight time on physical aeroplanes
* Thousands of MS sim hours on all kinds of medium and heavy aircraft (incl. B747)

No he didn't get hired, but he had his CV looked at all right :}

[Nick Riviera]

I would hazard that nobody would be able to land the plane these days. You wouldn't be able to open the cockpit door. :)

[Pugilistic Animus]

with an untutored hand and mind the average person:

will probably have less than three minutes before a spiral dive into the ground!!!!

however, if you've done some MSFS training then you may be lucky enough to go out in a spin:E

PA

[Michael Birbeck]

Can we be sure that muppet isn't stringing us along? :) He just can't be serious!

Who says that pilots don't have a sense of humour?:ok:

[eliptic]

Change my mind about the exit at 1000ft,,i learned today that if even a Rat can fly a plane


Brain cells in a dish fly fighter plane

http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2008/11/26/rat-brain-cells-in-dish-flying-a-plane/

[Cosmos2]

... I was given a 747 sim circuit ride late one night, totally untrained on it. The outcome was not 'pretty'.

But if your life had depended on it, I bet you would have landed with a better outcome.

[TurningFinals]

As a 3 hour ppl and a lot of time spent playing FS2004, i have 0-little real experience.

But i think anyone who knows the basic principals of flying, and has someone on a radio 'talking them down' has a half decent chance. Remember, any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

[Pugilistic Animus]

LESS THAN THREE MINUTES!!!

...or at least till the natural longitudinal stability of the plane shows itself,... maybe more sooner, but hey it's better than turning lengthwise into your own relative wind and having an inflight breakup:}


Lester :E

[3REDS]

BS

I bet you have spent close to 70k on your electricity bill powering your computer over your 14 year and 10000hr career.
I also assume your wife gets really pissed off when she has to call you Captain every time she enters the cockpit/bedroom and brings you your 3 squares a day on a tray.

I can pi## all over Lewis Hamilton on my F1 playstation game oh I must have done well over 90,000 miles on it and in the wet!!

Could I do this in real life.... of course not its a game just like your flight sim, I wouldn't even be able to start the thing never mind change gear without someone coaching me.

It would be very interesting to conduct a controlled experiment and throw a PC nerd into a ZFT flight sim without any help or prior warning and told "GET ON WITH IT". (Pprune fund perhaps)

And this is no way meant to be in bad taste but the cabin crew member on the Helios flight was training to be a pilot and he didn't even know where the transmit button was.... never mind fly the thing albeit under exceptional circumstances...but that is what we are talking about isnt it exceptional circumstances.

Christ...I have even known First Officers where if the Captain became incapacitated the outcome would not be certain and they were type rated.:suspect:

[Michael Birbeck]

The cabin crew member on the Helios flight was almost certainly suffering from the debilitating effects of hypoxia and it is a credit to him that even got into the cockpit when it was clear that the flying crew had been incapacitated. It is likely that exertion and hypoxia would have confounded even an experienced pilot under the conditions encountered on that tragic day.

I am trying to find the article in Pilot magazine that covered the amazing landing in a light aircraft at Roos (Cardiff Wales) airport by a total tyro after his father in law, the pilot, collapsed and died. He was talked down by an instructor with the support of ATC. In a complex or heavier type the outcome may have been even more tragic.

I must admit I have never owned or used MS Flight Simulator. Does it have any benefit at all in terms of memorising procedures etc? I can’t imagine that it is worth a bean unless it is linked to a yolk, with rudder pedals and throttles?

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

3REDS:-

"Christ...I have even known First Officers where if the Captain became incapacitated the outcome would not be certain and they were type rated."

Oh that made me chuckle, I know some exactly the same, we don't fly for the same mob do we...:}

[G SXTY]

I can’t imagine that it is worth a bean unless it is linked to a yolk, with rudder pedals and throttles?

It would still be useless.

To have any chance of a successful landing you need to have an awareness of inertia, pitch / power couples, speed stability, trimming (possibly in all three axes) and gear and flap limiting speeds - to name but a few.

MSFS is a fun toy, and it might be good for giving some people wet dreams about being able to fly the real thing, but it won't teach you much about any of the above, and they're all pretty important.

[Michael Birbeck]

G SXTY

"It would still be useless".

Guess you are right.

Was wondering more about sitting with an approach plate and setting a 30 knot wind while practising a manual hold, DME arc or something like that. Does the package allow you to replay the profile you have "flown" ?

Oops I am diverging from the localiser on this thread.:\

[TightSlot]

Oops I am diverging from the localiser on this thread

I'm not in the least surprised - I'm beginning to think that I may be diverging from sanity on this thread.

[InSoMnIaC]

Come on guys anyone can land an airliner.

It's just a question of how many G's would be involved in the process :E

[L'aviateur]

Simple questions to ask yourself are, whats the stall speed of the aircraft? Let the speed get to low and as someone without experience, your in an irrecoverable and dangerous situation. Now consider if your 10kts to fast over the treshold, now even on an SEP you might find yourself without enough runway. There are so many variables in this question, that it's impossible to answer. A PPL bringing a King Air down without overstressing the airframe succesfully with information over the RT from an experience pilot is quite a feat. Anything larger and I really think a PPL or microsoft simulator pilot would struggle. If you search around the internet enough you'll find fresh 200 hour fATPL, some with years of Microsoft Flight Simulator experience struggling through the 737 type ratings etc.

[Michael Birbeck]

AOPA Online: Unintentional King Air pilot: An interview with Doug White (http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2009/090414pilotsave.html?WT.mc_id=090417epilot&WT.mc_sect=tts)

[BladePilot]

Caught the tail end of a programme on Sky T'uther night which featured a pretty young lady who debugged Helicopter AP software. She explained that she often had to fly the programme to ensure her fix had worked. She had never flown in a real rotary machine but she could fly the 'real' helicopter sim like a Pro! she was very impressive!

Question:
Would a veteran RC model flyer have any better chance of landing the real thing in a dead pilot situation than an experienced FSimer?

Got my hands on one of the BA B757 Sims at LHR many many years ago, boy that was fun got her down in one piece but me thinks it was 99% sheer good luck!

[Guest 112233]

Think realistically of the problems of extracating the incapacitated crew from their seats without disengaging the auto pilot auto throttle etc. ... Hummm

OK you have done the above .... Humm

Its day light (luckley) and you have by miracle ensconced your self into the LHS of a XXX at FL390 mach 0.83 - heading XXX following a pre planed automated profile to waypoint BOLOX on the edge of a non friendly states boundary and the misfitting head set is telling you, Bah Blah XXX this is XXXXX control "Radar Heading XXX - Respond " - someware near a Air defence identification zone boundary - over someware in Europe " - Now where is that P to T red button. Ininy miniy mini mo. - OK I have 45 Mins in a Tiger Moth and 6- 7 H in a Piper and 1 H in an Aerobat.

Assuming I can communicate my predicament to Area and turn the Transponder ID to 7700 - Imagine just the problems of getting the Aeroplane out of the Cruise - let alone landing - As said Dynamics, Momentium, Gravity - We can all dream I suppose.

Is that a CB ahead me thinks ?

CAT III

[NudgingSteel]

Been away from this thread for a couple of days, thought I'd reply to BSmuppet who seems far too angry!!! First off, I've never said you couldn't do it, possibly you could, I'm just saying it's extraordinarily unlikely in real life.
1. Even if MSFS was ultra-accurate (which it isn't in many ways, not least the simulation of the atmosphere in which the aircraft is flying) you seem to discount the rather significant human factors side of things. When placed in a highly stressful or dangerous situation, even normally rational people can freeze or make bizarre decisions. (Google for passenger behaviour following a crash-landing for more info.). Commercial pilots are both selected and trained to be both calm and rational during complex/unusual/emergency situations.
2. As part of my ATC training we spent some time with a large UK carrier, including the sims, and my group of 3 got 3 hours in a 747-400 sim. Possibly the same one you landed. We tried various scenarios and I managed three frankly excellent landings, though I do modestly say so myself...! Yet I still doubt that I could do it in real life given all the hundreds of other variables.
3. A couple of years after the above sim time, I was lucky enough (pre-9/11 days) to have visited the flight deck of a VIR 747-400 mid-Atlantic and being invited to remain up-front for the landing into Heathrow. As we broke cloud at about 1,000' with no headwind, I was taken aback at how fast we were going - the perception of speed was much higher than I remembered from the sim or even seeing TV footage of landings from the flight deck. Any lingering confidence from the sim time was dashed forever!

Whilst I'm sure you didn't mean to sound cocky, you did rather come across that way and I reckon the real pilots on this forum have been fairly kind so far!

[Final 3 Greens]

To summarise, it seems there are three broad sets of opinions....

Professional pilots, who know the complexities of flying a jet (including inertia) and don't believe that non professional pilots would have much chance of landing a airliner and MSFS zero chance.

PPLs, some of whom have MEP and full motion sim experience and believe that they would have a reasonable to good chance of bringing a King Air safely back down, but agree with the professional pilots about the complexities of flying and landing a heavier turbo prop or a jet.

Flight sim fans (some with a few hours of flying as a student) who, with great respect, may have gained some interesting insights into jet systems and procedures, but are not pilots and show this in some of their comments.

[banjodrone]

I kind of echo a lot of the comments here but I think the pertinent issue is that anyone in the situation would certainly have to try, which kind of makes the question of whether they would be able to or not, irrelevant. The chances of failure from resignation are infinitely greater than those of trying with slim odds of success.

[Cosmos2]

What happens when a balloon pilot falls out of the gondola leaving 13 passengers behind and none of them know how to fly a balloon?

... The basket then dragged along the ground while the pilot continued firing the burners. The balloon lifted off the ground and drifted toward a concrete wall. The balloon hit the wall and the pilot fell out of the basket.

The passengers further reported that with the increased buoyancy, the balloon gained altitude and continued drifting. When it next descended near a trailer park, one passenger jumped out of the basket from about 30 feet above ground level, and the balloon continued drifting.

When the balloon next contacted the ground seven passengers jumped out, the balloon gained altitude, and it drifted across Interstate Highway 17. Several passengers attempted to control the burners, and the balloon's skirt ignited. The balloon drifted past a gasoline service station and over power lines, and it finally landed in a brush covered field where the remaining five passengers exited. The touchdowns which occurred after the pilot had been ejected from the basket were considerably less hard than the initial impact with the pilot handling the controls.
They were better off without the pilot, except for the person who jumped from 30 feet. :eek:

LAX96FA344 (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X06766&ntsbno=LAX96FA344&akey=1)

[JEM60]

In a little defence of BSM, and in company with Contact Tower who posted earlier, I also read the 'Pilot' article by retired BA Capt. Bob Grimstead.
It made very interesting reading, because, basically, the answer was no you wouldn't land it. But he DID make the interesting remark that the person most likely to pull it off, were it possible in the first place, was none other than the FS2004 guy who had much experience of 'flying' airliners on his sim, rather than the low time PPL!!., due to the simmers use of autopilot functions. This was his opinion, not mine. I am an ex-PPl, and, don't laugh, have many thousands of hours on FS2204, but I thank God, am not naive enough to possibly think that I could pull it off.
In response to B. Grimstead's article, one or two people replied in the magazine that THEY would make it. I replied and my letter was published.I implored them to read Mr. Grimsteads article again...and again.... However, as other people have said, even
trying something is better than the alternative.
Also, please don't be too critical of FS folk. They get a lot of pleasure from it,as I do, and, of course, we are all jealous of you guys. It annoys me, though, when they think they have the answers when, obviously you actually do. Cheers, John

[wobble2plank]

Incapacitated crew, functioning Airbus aircraft and radio.

Assuming you can use the radio and there is an adequate airfield around. Add in an experienced ATC and a fold out cockpit panel for the controller.

Get comfy in the seat. Get a good look at the autopilot panel. Get a talk through of what button does what (pretty simple on an Airbus), at this point a knowledge of MSFS could be an advantage. Now the fun part. You get to be talked down on full automatics. Select the ATC given altitude on the fcu (panel between the seats below the glare shield with the LCD digits) and pull the ALT knob. This puts the 'Bus into a controlled OPEN DES mode. The aircraft will wander on down on the current nav track. The controller will then, probably, give you a heading to keep your screaming death tube away from the controlled aircraft. Select the heading with the HDG knob and pull it. Hey presto, we're off on that heading. Speed, hmm don't want to rip the wings off so dial up 250 on the FCU (or a MACH depending on altitude) and pull the speed knob this will give OPEN DES a speed target and allow the aircraft to achieve it. A thorough combination of these plus speed control and we are circling an airport with a coupled ILS. Speed back to 220, still above Flap 1 speed at the moment. Our herculean ATC is doing a great descriptive job here. Press MCDU comm page and type in the ILS frequency, final approach course, select 'PERF' page and enter 'NO' into the DH box, weather if you've got capacity. MSFS coming to the fore now! Activate the approach! They vector you out for a looooooong ILS intercept. Wind the speed back, 180knots now, level flight, Auto pilot and Auto thrust are doing their thing. The aircraft won't stall. Flap 1 selected, little black knob with a Vauxhall gear lever knob on it, centre console rear right hand side. Press 'LOC' aircraft captures the localiser, press G/S, speed 160, flap 2. Aircraft captures the glide slope, press A/P 2 and the aircraft goes to Auto land Dual mode. Press the speed selector (if you haven't activated the approach then, as long as it's an ILS it will auto arm) A/C goes to managed speed and starts slowing up to Vapp. Flap 3, Flap Full and watch the airbus auto land magic! When it shouts retard, don't get offended, close the throttles and stamp on the brakes! Both masters off, you're a hero.

Enjoy. Could be done I think. :}

[Griff]

Let me get this right.... someone called muppet - who claims to have 10,000 hours on a flight sim - thinks he could land a passenger jet because he has all the 747 add ons for his PC.

A little optomistic I think but that's just me.

Except it's not just me because a highly experienced pilot who sits at the pointy end of a real 747 comes on and points out that - despite all the technology involved - landings can be a bit tricky from time to time, even for highly experienced professional aviators.

Next flight sim muppet gets annoyed at this mild rebuke and tells the pilot to "do one" because he does not like people taking the p**s out of him.

Has the world really gone so mad that a muppet with an insane amount of time in front of his PC thinks he can tell a 747 pilot to "do one"?

And for what it is worth, I have flown nothing bigger than a Duchess, and could I land a 747, er, no I could not.

P.

[eliptic]

Here guys,, print this out and you are safe to go on your next flight

Complete Guide to Emergency Airplane Landings | The Art of Manliness (http://artofmanliness.com/2008/09/16/how-to-land-an-airplane/)

how hard could it behttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/icon25.gif


heyy,,shouldn't this be included in the safety folder for the specific plane http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

[Blues&twos]

The comments underneath are better than the article.

There are some very optimistic replies to this thread.
No, 'deluded' is a better word.

[wobble2plank]

I could land it.......

Oh, bugger, that's what I'm paid to do. :(

By the way, not a hope for helicopters, there are no computer sims that have ever come anywhere close to emulating even remotely correctly the complex flight dynamics of helicopters. Even some full motion sims struggle with it!

Enjoy.

[eliptic]

If a 747 Captain say he would have big problems to land a A380,,i would say we are all BUSTED,,with or without what ever simulation,,,and again,,who will open the door to the cookpit to start with??

Hopefully the galley are fully stowed with fine liqueur and that the AP and fuel last to i get deadly drunk,, :uhoh:

[Pugilistic Animus]

I could land an airbus as easily as a helicopter:\

[Cosmos2]

Discovery Channel has a great program about helicopters on right now. They showed a non-pilot trying to learn how to fly one. He was able to land in the simulator but failed miserably in a real helicopter. The instructor had to keep taking control and they gave up after a while.

The instructor flew in a straight line a few feet off the ground while turning the helicopter around and around at the same time. It's mind boggling.

[deltayankee]

Everyone seems to focus on the question whether an MS flight sim or model airplane enthusiast would have the skills and or knowhow to land an airliner, but for my money the question is entirely academic since they'll never get a chance to try.

Pilot incapacitation is rare, dual incapacitation extremely rare and the chance of it happening on a flight with no relief crew, no positioning crew and no commuting pilots is off the scale.

But even supposing it did happen (maybe they all ate the fish) how does our FS enthusiast in seat 57G get his or her hands on the controls? They'd have to get from their seat to the cockpit door, convince cabin crew to open the door and move the captain before they can do anything. If the A/P is disconnected they might also have to reach the cockpit with the airplane in an unusual attitude and do it very quickly before bad things can happen. Plus there are maybe 300 other passengers and there will be others who claim to know how to do it. Why should you get chosen? Will you ever get past the crowd in the aisles?

I suspect that if the only solution were to put a non pilot at the controls and ask ATC to talk them down then the CC would either do it themselves, choose another company employee or chose someone they know personally; I can't really imagine them letting an unqualified stranger into the cockpit.

The only realistic scenario where a passenger can have the opportunity to land an aircraft is when they are sitting in the right hand seat of a small single or perhaps a light twin. In these cases the MSFS experience will be almost useless and the best thing to do is to do some some real flying practice.

[BSmuppet]

Guys,

It has been excellent watching this unfold. One of the posters got it right - "stringing you along".

However, from my short time on Prune I have realised something. Apparently, it does not matter how good your grades are, how well your sim check is, the underlying fact is you have got to impress the guys behind the table during the interview.

From what I can gather, they need to make sure that they can sit next to you for X hour flight. I.e do you have the personality of Les Dawson or do you have the personality of an IKEA bean bag.

And it scares me to read the replies that some people write here- wanabee pilots and present pilots. Sorry but I would not want to sit next to you lot for 8 minutes let alone 8 hours (bar a few on here - Rainboe seems a laugh, WWW if only for the conversation).

The amount of posts I read where people ridicule people's grammer (only to be corrected themselves as it is spelt grammar). Someone even took offence to my use of the word "balls up" in a previous post as I should have used the word 'mistake'. People trying to get one up on each other. Smart-asses telling other pilots "If that's your attitude, you will never make it to the flight deck" etc..blah blah.

And this is worrying. Because everyone here seems to be the same-pilots and wannabees. So if they have this personality, then I certainly won't fit in. This is something I should be worried about - not whether I bust mins on an IR test.

I mean some people here can't get the joke - even when they see my name - BS Muppet. And by the way - BS does not stand for Blue Sky.

Deary me.

[eliptic]

Muppet,,:ok:

I like you;)

Take it for what it is,,,and remember

ANYTHING is POSSIBLE:cool: until proved IMPOSSIBLE