Why is Air Canada losing so much money and what can done about it?

[Minorite invisible]

Air Canada lost 1.03 Billion dollars in 2008.

Air Canada appoints Calin Rovinescu as president and chief executive (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/headline_news/article.jsp?content=b0330131A)

That comes out to 2.82 million dollars a day. This is despite rather high load factors.

What, if anything, can be done to save the airline and bring it back into the black ?

[ea340]

To start with get rid of the ACPPA the Air Canada ACT.

[Gload]

CCAA:uhoh:

[ea340]

Unfortunately CCAA does not get rid of ACPPA as was shown in the last round of CCAA. Westjet and Porter no longer need protection

[Minorite invisible]

To start with get rid of the ACPPA the Air Canada ACT.

For those of you not familiar, its here to read:

Air Canada Public Participation Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cs/A-10.1///en)

[Minorite invisible]

Air Canada (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1SEC815759)

[Yobbo]

Trans Canada Airlines Act. They are a creation of the Canadian Gov. Always had all the best routes , equipment ,facilities , and were protected by the gov. Operationally felt they were the best , even though they had a poor safety record until recently .They went public in the late seventies with a clean sheet...equipment, facilities, routes , no debt, and managed to end up bankrupt. And here we go again .

A corporate culture who still lives in the good old days of the Trans Canada Act.

[ea340]

Yabbo
I'am afraid you will have to review how Air Canada went public in 1989. With the ACPPA I might add .

[Minorite invisible]

Rovinescu should land Air Canada on CCAA tarmac (http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090331.wvox0401/BNStory/Business/)

"In 2008, Air Canada's costs per available seat mile, outside fuel, was 12.4 cents. WestJet's was 8.3 cents."

[ea340]

Air Canada has to reduce costs . Start with ACPP pensions will be next due 4 billion dollar shortfall. Contracts with Jazz and Aeroplan I'am sure are in Calin's sights .

[connies4ever]

Yobbo wrote-

"Trans Canada Airlines Act. They are a creation of the Canadian Gov. Always had all the best routes , equipment ,facilities , and were protected by the gov. Operationally felt they were the best , even though they had a poor safety record until recently .They went public in the late seventies with a clean sheet...equipment, facilities, routes , no debt, and managed to end up bankrupt. And here we go again .

A corporate culture who still lives in the good old days of the Trans Canada Act."

a) as EA340 wrote, Air Canada act was passed in 1989, not 70s, and puts several caveats on AC that are NOT applied to other airlines.
b) Poor safety record ? Where is your head at man ? There has been no significant incident at AC since 1986 -- a far far better record than, say BA.

[Minorite invisible]

I quickly read the ACPPA and I don't see anything there that can be interpreted as being financially detrimental to the company, other than the obligation to maintain certain maintenance bases and the headquarters in Montreal. I agree that these clauses and all others like it should be eliminated. A company must be free to manage itself as required by its management without having a hand tied in its back.

[ea340]

lets start with translating every piece of paper in the company including all aircraft manuals. The cost of language training for F/A's and agents .Manitoba is suing Air Canada under the ACPP for closing the Winnipeg F/A base . Requirement to have a maintenance base in YWG. Is it cheaper to have your Head office in Montreal or Calgary. The list goes on. It would be interesting to have Westjet come under the Offical Languages Act a reqiurement of the ACPPA and see what the cost is

[Gload]

I think our fine, upstanding representatives in Ottawa may have to be convinced to let Air Canada out of ACPPA this time. Or, take some of the money that it's printing and pay for it.

[Kube]

As a regular user of Canadian Air Lines I have a challenge. If you ever meet an Air Canada employee that does not hate their job and everyone thet meet on their job please introduce me. It will be a first.

[Skidoo]

KUBE,

I'll introduce myself to you, An AC pilot one of the vast majority who are truly 100% dedicated to the success of Air Canada, are proud to represent our country as the national carrier and enjoy being part of AC. Yes the people I work with, again the vast majority front and back end are fantastic to work alongside.

[ea340]

Kube
Another problem AC had was the Liberal merger of AC and CDN . Air Canada only wanted the overseas operations. It appears there was a lot of unhappy campers on both sides. As a result of that merger Australia allowed Ansett to die.

[Fly3]

I would have to agree with Kube. Although I don't travel frequently with AC when I do it is in business class. The standard of service in both the lounges and in the air are far from satisfactory. Recently I have encountered rude and unhelpful staff in LHR and YHZ and in the air even a simple request for a drink of water can bring an exaspirated look from the cabin crew member. Thank goodness most of my other trips are with Singapore Airlines: now they really do know how to look after their customers.

[Minorite invisible]

Talking to people about this problem, I heard all sorts of stories. Within Air Canada, there is a deep rooted sense of Government bureaucracy inherited from the days when AC was a Crown Corporation. A few examples.

How many times does it happen every day that an aircraft arrives at the gate on sched and has to wait, engines running, 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes, for the ground crew to show up before it can be parked. When they do arrive, look out the window. They are never in a hurry, quite the contrary.

Recently, I was on an Air Canada flight. The front end put the parking brake and waited a short time for the ground crew to show up (less than 5 minutes, but we did wait) and when the aircraft was finally parked, the bridge put in place and the door opened, there was no ground agent in the bridge. Air Canada rules state that there must be a ground agent in the bridge before anyone can be let out. We waited in the aircraft at least 10 minutes after the door had been opened, until the captain got out of the cockpit, went into the terminal and came back two minutes later with a ground agent in tow. When I walked out, there were several ground agents milling around the gate desk, chatting.

Another case I heard about. An airline employee goes to buy a car. At the dealership, he recognizes a senior Air Canada ground agent. This AC ground agent also works full time at the dealership. The airline employee enquires on how this person can find the time to work full time at the dealership and at Air Canada at the same time. It turns out this AC ground agent who makes a high hourly pay and has full time shifts can sell his shifts to junior ground agents who have low salaries and part time shifts. Air Canada pays the shift to the senior agent at the seniors' salary, who in turn pays the junior agent the shift at that agents' lower salary. The senior makes $100 per day profit on the junior, while working full time at the dealership. It seems that Air Canada attempted to stop this practise but ran into the opposition of all union groups involved. This seems to be widespread.

A new aircraft technician gets hired a few years ago. He is given a work order to go fix an aircraft in the hangar. He completes the job in 30 minutes and comes back for more work. His supervisor tells him the job he was given was a two hour job and instructs him to go have coffee with the others for 90 minutes before coming back for another work order. At night, the Air Canada maintenance hangars are full of pick nick tables with Air Canada technicians killing time for their next work order. When a technician works efficiently and quickly, he is quickly warned by the senior technicians to slow down, less the junior make them look bad. I was told it is a common sight to see aircraft technicians sleeping in Air Canada aircraft in the hangars at night.

Talking to people, one hears dozens of such stories, all of which are part of the overall Air Canada problem.

As long as a large proportion of Air Canada employee will continue to have that mentality that Air Canada is Canada's flag carrier that the Federal government will never allow to go under, things will not change.

Like Sabena, Swiss Air, Eastern or Pan Am, Air Canada can and will go under if it doesn't become a model of efficiency at all levels of the company. Having most seats sold on a fleet of modern fuel efficient aircraft is not enough. All involved have to pitch in. This is not what is happening.

Air France and BA were able to turn a profit despite very heavy Collective Agreements and High salaries. Air Canada can do it too. If not, it will follow the example of Swiss Air and Sabena, whose employees, all thought until the very last day that their governments would never allow their airlines to fold, yet fold they did.

[777AV8R]

Force it into bankruptcy, dismantle the unions, cut the pensions and medical benefits, change the hours of service provisions and get real with the organization. No fancy 'buy outs'. There is so much dead wood in this outfit, its pathetic, it makes it impossible to operate efficently.

Quit the bickering if it was AC/CDN or any other component. The game has changed. Best to start working together.

Been there, done that.

[XKV8]

Is that you Frank Lorenzo?:rolleyes:

[Yobbo]

777AV8

You have it right. This pathetic organization represents Canada overseas . They are embarrassing !

[777AV8R]

Yup...absolutely NO service of any kind. I just flew to LHR on them. Gear came up and the biscuit shooters were sitting in their rest seats along the bulkheads, reading Cosmo. Only problem is, they're Cosmo wanna be's. The Canadian way...and, for those who want to argue the point...I worked in Canada for 25 years and saw the light and departed. I stand back and look at the way that organization is operating and nothing has changed in the last 13 years....West Jet..another story...what an operation. Clive got it right. Stole the model from PWA and ran with it. Say what you want about WJ, they've got their act together. I wish they had bigger equipment that I could travel on.

[bcflyer]

Have a look over at Avcanada.ca and you may get a better idea of whats going on at Air Canada. The ACPPA cost (and continues to cost) millions of dollars due to restrictions that no other airlines in Canada are subject to.

All the cost cutting measures mentioned earlier in this thread were done last time we were in CCAA. Unfortunately those in management were only interested in dismantling the airline and selling off the parts to make a massive amount of money for the shareholders. There has been over 2 BILLION dollars taken out and given away. Management has earned millions of dollars while the company slid downhill and now they're crying poverty...

[ea340]

777AV8R so you flew AC because .BA opreates flights every day to Canada amoung others . AC bashing is a national pass time . We will see this week AC fate when the numbers come out

[777AV8R]

I don't choose to travel AC. My corporate department uses them. I'd love to travel with someone else to the west coast.

[Yobbo]

What a shame Wardair is gone. Now that was a airline!

[ea340]

Yobbo you are right Wardair was great problem of course was Max saw the light and sold to CDN for 60 million. AC's major problem now is the fact they have no assets. Cerberus Capital drained 5 billion out of the company. The same Cerberus that wanted the government to bail them out with Chrysler All AC deserves is a release from the ACPP . Jazz should be allowed into the Island to compete with Porter . The Island should be modeled after the London city center airport Mayor Miller of course would go nuts

[777AV8R]

Actually, the 60 M was what Max himself received. The transaction was over $550 Million.

Then, here we go about AC...

TORONTO (Reuters) – Air Canada said on Monday it was seeking support from its unions for "a moratorium and other conditions" on funding its more than C$3 billion ($2.5 billion) pension deficit, but at least one of the unions warned against gutting its pension plans.

Concessions from Air Canada's unions, which represent around 18,000 of its employees, are widely seen as crucial to keeping the country's biggest airline from re-entering bankruptcy protection.

Air Canada said in a statement the moratorium would allow it to establish financial certainty over the next several years and help it maintain its defined benefit pension plans.

But the Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents about 4,500 unionized staff at the airline, demanded on Monday that the company continue funding its pension plan.

"If the company insists on getting rid of the pensions, they'll have the fight of their life, by not only the CAW, but all the unionized employees of Air Canada," said Leslie Dias, president of CAW Local 2002.

Dias said the last time Air Canada went into bankruptcy protection, in 2003, CAW members gave up the equivalent of 20 percent of the overall labor costs, and the company is still in dire straights.

Cameron Doerksen, aerospace analyst at Versant Partners, said funding its pension deficit is a "significant problem" for Air Canada but so are the large debt repayments the airline faces as well as the renegotiation of several union contracts.

"All three of those things combined result in a significant degree of uncertainty around Air Canada," Doerksen said.

Air Canada spokeswoman Angela Mah declined to comment further on Monday's brief statement.

The collective agreement between Air Canada and the CAW-- the country's largest private-sector union -- expires at the end of the month.

The CAW presented a five-point plan on Monday designed to keep the airline out of creditor protection. The proposals included a call for the federal government to retake a stake in the airline, which was privatized by Ottawa in the late 1980s.

"An equity stake in the national carrier would allow the government to make sure that the communities stay connected from one end of this country to the other," said CAW President Ken Lewenza. "The fact of the matter is, when Air Canada is in the air, Air Canada represents Canada."

The union also called on Ottawa to block the windup of Air Canada parent ACE Aviation Holdings and to reinvest the company's capital in the airline.

The plan would also see new regulations on capacity in the airline industry and the creation of a federal fund to backstop pension guarantees.

Finally, the union said it would like to block all future bonuses to ACE Chief Executive Robert Milton.

The union said that Milton has received tens of millions of dollars in compensation since 2003, and will receive millions more upon the successful windup of ACE, while Air Canada itself is now worth only slightly more than C$80 million.

"Our members are demoralized by the fact that ... their sacrifices have, in the end, benefited only a few," said Dias.

Air Canada has recently cut capacity by 7 percent, resulting in 2,000 layoffs, and has been working to raise capital to shore up its balance sheet.

Shares of Air Canada were up 4 Canadian cents at 84 Canadian cents on the Toronto Stock Exchange, while ACE was up 1 Canadian cent at C$5.13.


The CAW is whats wrong, along with the rest of the organization.

[ea340]

777AV8R you of are right it was 550 million but of course Max was looking after Max. The unions are an issue but in the end Cerberus drained the airline. Then there is the contracts. Cerberus had AC sign with Jazz and Aeroplan. This Friday AC releases the latest results . If AC goes down the GTAA will soon follow I suspect .Will become a political issue in Quebec and Ontario The GTAA is the most expensive airport in the world to oprerate out of no wonder Porter picked the Island. Narita is 2nd by a long margin about 60%. Correct me if I'am wrong but the GTAA is 26th or so by operations in the world .

[777AV8R]

Actually, I've been out of the Canadian scene for so long, I'm not sure how much it costs the GTAA to run that place. I can only imagine that its a mill stone around their neck. As for the AC deal, can you picture this 'made in Canada' solution: The Feds force West Jet to buy 'big red'. I'm being facetious, of course.

[YHZChick]

I'm curious as to how heavily invested in WestJet stock the Federal NDP are. Between the Passengers Bill of Rights proposed by NDP MP Jim Maloway , to this proposed legislation by MP Peter Julian, they seem bound and determined to do everything within their power to keep Air Canada from ever making a profit.

Now, i'm not the world's biggest Air Canada fan, and I avoid flying them whenever I can, but I have SERIOUS issues with government telling private business how they should operate, especially people like Julian and Maloway who, IMO, have zero understanding of what running an airline and the challenges involved are. When government starts telling a private business what to do, well, we have problems...

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 6, 2009

NDP BILL WOULD LET AIR CANADA CREATE JOBS IN VANCOUVER

Ottawa – Peter Julian, MP (Burnaby-New Westminster) and NDP International Trade Critic, today tabled a Private Member’s Bill in the House of Commons, Bill C-379, An Act to amend the Air Canada Public Participation Act. The Bill would amend section 6(c) of the act to require an “operational and overhaul centre” for Air Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia.

“Vancouver is the gateway to the Asia-Pacific world and a major centre for domestic and international travel. Air Canada is important to us, not just to maintain Canada’s air lift capacity but also to ensure that high skilled jobs are created and retained all across the country including in BC”, stated Julian.

At critical points in its history, Air Canada has been the regular recipient of public funding in order to ensure it remains as a national airline capable of serving not only business interests, but the national interest of the travelling public. The Bill would improve service to Canadian travelers by allowing for more planes to be serviced and maintained in the BC region. It would also ensure that service and safety positions such as stewards and flight attendants are maintained in BC.

“It is fundamentally important strategically to keep those high skilled jobs in Canada and that our transport infrastructure needs to be served by appropriate made-in-Canada infrastructure. The creation of an operational and overhaul centre for Air Canada is consistent with this vision for a national transportation system built in the public interest.”

[Habster]

I've encountered poor service approx 3 years ago & the lack of concern from their head office was the icing on the cake for me. Approx 100 passengers were left to fend for themselves when our flight was cancelled between Toronto & Detroit at Pearson.In short, approx 1 hour from scheduled departure a delay was announced;people started questioning ground staff at the gate(pushy americans,I thought-silly me I realized in hindsight);I opted to approach another AC employee who emerged to explain I needed to make the flight to be able to connect from Detroit the next morning back to Australia;I'd be updated I was told;shift changes started happening;news now only coming from one staffer that the flight was cancelled-no other flights there for the day;no one else coming down to "sort this out" we were told & with some relunctance we were given boarding cards for a Northwest flight in another terminal/locate our checked bags/& check ourselves in less than an hour to do so.The luck ones who pushed seemed to have made the flight but I was greatful I wasn't travelling with my wife and two kids.Look in the big scheme of things,if this is the worst that happens to me I'm leading a very fortunate life. But,one the ground staff didn't care/have training to cope and secondly,head office replied afterwards to my concern with "we value your feedback" email reponse.I heard nothing further. Sorry,passing buck to me. I won't trust AC when next planning the journey between Australia and Canada.

[Tan]

Ahh AC has never flown between Toronto & Detroit but I guess AC bashing is the name of the game.

[ea340]

Habster I have to agree with Tan AC has never operated to KDTW but hey the truth never gets in the way of a good fairy tale

[critter]

No...but Jazz does and the gates are staffed by agents from Air Canada.

[ea340]

Jazz totally seperate company much like Comair and Colgan. I think you will find the agents are Jazz but could be wrong . But as usual AC takes the hit. Do not get me wrong AC has major problems but I could give examples on every major carrier and may I add even Westjet .The question should they get government help no but the government should also free them of the ACA and see what happens. I see the new Boss has a vested interest in seeing AC survive interesting .

[Tan]

The agents are Jazz and Jazz does not operate any equipment that could seat 100 folks, whatever. There has to be more to this fairy tale there always is..

He's already made a tidy profit on his vested shares so I agree he has a vested interest in the long-term survival of AC.

[rigpiggy]

Actually in YYZ, all the CSR's ground staff are AC, only the pilots, FA's mechanics, and MiniStoc are Jazz employees, with a smattering of others. I'm pretty sure Detroit personnel are United

[Cpt. Underpants]

Where's Bruce Lee and his rabid posts defending the indefensible?

If HE's given up, AC are in deep doo-doo.

[PBY]

It looks like canadian government's protectionism of AC has always been detrimental to canadian aviation. For example, look at the demise of Canada 3000 in 2001. The government refuse to help them, even though they were in a good position to survive.
Of course, there is guys on this forum, who are smarter than me, what concerns the details. But could it not be actually good for canadian aviation in the long run, if AC disapears? May be, there would be a lots of start ups after that, which could actually survive, if they did not have to compete with government's money being directly or indirectly pumped into AC.

[sec 3]

Brucee is probably the guy who freaked out in the cockpit over Europe last year when the Captain had to land single pilot. Just trying to get an early retirement !!:}

[troff]

"A!"
Mebbie a new paint job 'an a song by Celiene Dion for awl da people to 'ear. Dat would do it!
Wadda you mean dey hawlready try dat?
OK try a picture of 'er on da tail, den.:}
T

[Tan]

It rather entertaining reading all the loser posts by the AC wantabee’s. What’s the matter loser’s, you couldn’t make the grade?

[sec 3]

wow !! it must be brucee incognito !!!:}

[Tan]

No I call them as I see them. It’s unbelievable the half-truths outright stupid comments made by the AC basher crowd. Get a life loser’s…

[Kube]

I am not an Interline member and like most of the Public to me Jazz = Air Canada. I flew Jazz to San Diego on a Bombardier 90 seater and returned from SFO on a similar Embraerer a/c. Best flights and service on an Air Canada flight ever. Small problem with the entertainment system on the SFO/YVR leg but everything else wonderful. San Diego is a very user friendly destination. All access transit pass for three days $12.00

[er340790]

Well, I've only been Moose-side for 5 years, but the parallels in that time between AC and the dead / dying / zombiefied European legacy carriers such as Sabena, Swissair, Aer Lingus and Alitalia etc really are striking. My biggest personal concern, at least on the monthly transatlantic flights I make, is the sheer lack of enthusiasm for the job exhibited by 70-80% of the cabin crews. This is not 'AC-bashing', it really is a simple fact. As a paying passenger, it appears that far too many of them would rather not be there.

I am sure all the historical factors mentioned above all play their part in the current mess. But the upshot is that many paying passengers like me simply chose to 'book with AC only if there's no convenient alternative flight.' It's my money and I've been disappointed too many times. End of.

As to the future? These things do, eventually, end in tears. Probably one of two ways. Effective bankrutcy along the lines of Sabena with something like SN Brussels(?) or whatever hanging on in the deepest shadows, or yet another botched-reincarnation attempt on a smaller scale like Alitalia until the inevitable repeats 3-4 years later. Given the level of political meddling, I'd say the latter.

We'll see.

[sec 3]

They should take a lesson from some of the asian carriers. 5yr contract. When the contract ends,it ends. Period. No old jet bags allowed !:ok:

[ea340]

sec 3 they tried the contract route in the 60's a 10 year contract ruled illegal in 1972 I think. No western carrier can compete with asian labour laws

[sec 3]

Just wishful thinking on my part 340 man !:)

[Minorite invisible]

Air Canada seeking $600-million loan - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/air-canada-seeking-600-million-loan/article1182479/)

Globe and Mail update, Monday, Jun. 15, 2009 02:05PM EDT

Air Canada (AC.B-T1.490.021.36%) is seeking a $600-million loan from a group of lenders, including Ottawa.

Three of the airline's five unions agreed last Monday night to new 21-month collective agreements that would expire in the spring of 2011, but those pacts are subject to the carrier's ability to secure new financing, union officials have told members at ratification meetings.

The federal government would play a minority role in its contribution in the lending syndicate, union officials say.

Air Canada needs new financing to help it stay above an $800-million minimum cash balance required by a credit-card processor to keep payments flowing from passengers. If the Montreal-based carrier isn't able to secure new loans, analysts say it could be forced to file for bankruptcy protection for the second time in six years.

As well, Air Canada's top officers would see their salaries frozen - with no bonuses - until the spring of 2011, coinciding with the union members' wage freeze. And there would be no improvements to executive pension plan benefits through 2013.

Under the tentative labour pact, Air Canada shares will also be distributed to its unions: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Air Canada Pilots Association, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Auto Workers and the Canadian Air Line Dispatchers Association (CALDA).

Unions would be awarded shares to be credited to the pension plan, which has a $2.9-billion solvency deficit.

The IAMAW, CAW and CALDA are urging employees to ratify the tentative agreement and help cash-strapped Air Canada avoid filing for bankruptcy protection.

Those three unions are supporting management's proposal for the company to defer most of its pension contributions until the spring of 2011. The Air Canada Pilots Association and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents flight attendants, continued to say they are hoping for a breakthrough this week, but remain in contract talks with management under federal mediator James Farley.

Ottawa must still approve a proposed pension-funding moratorium

[North Shore]

They should take a lesson from some of the asian carriers. 5yr contract. When the contract ends,it ends. Period. No old jet bags allowed !

I think that the key word here is 'Asian', which (to me, anyway) implies a certain mindset and attitude towards service. If you think that you are going to get anywhere near the same level of service from some early 20's middle Canadian hottie with an ipod in one hand and her text phone in the other, then you are deluded.

[RoyHudd]

Positioning over with AC a few times this year, it has been astounding to witness the apathy (punctuated by short bouts of rudeness) displayed to the pax by the cabin crew....old boilers of both genders...well sort of, if you get my drift.

There was not one shred of evidence of service orientation on any of the flights. And the groundstaff in Canada were no better.

They deserve to lose their jobs, but when they do, the company will have folded. And this is unlikely.

[hotndusty]

The Air Canada experience from a passenger perspective is abhorrent most of the time; there is a handfull of people in that organization who should be awarded the medal of honor nevertheless. Aside from any Canadian regulation (protectionism) I truly believe the answer is 'free market' competition. Westjet has proven itself a formidable adversary in that regard mostly in the domestic scope, Air Transat as well in limited markets and no doubt there are others. But..the international market remains unscathed at Air Canada and I think that is their bread and butter. Emirates has been attempting to gain further access into the Canadian market beyond the full A380's that arrive into Toronto weekly. I do believe that the majority of Canadian traveler has yet to experience service that doesn't include condescending school yard tactics, in-flight crews that are trained and mandated to be polite, smile and helpful and give the highest level of customer experience vs. what we all know as being the usual AC experience. Now before judgement is made I use Emirates as the example but that is to highlight the contrast..it can be any number of carriers. Isn't it time that this 'legacy' carrier either steps up to the plate or disappears altogether?

[+TSRA]

I believe, unfortunatly, that to some extend Big Reds hands are tied. Granted their upper management are trough hogging pigs at the best of times, but then so are most major carriers in this day in age. The problem I see is that the Unions (CAW, et al) are almost unwilling to help the airline out. I understand completly that they (employees of AC) have given up quite a bit in the last 5-10 years through what the industry sees each time as the "final death throw of Air Canada", however I personally would rather have some sort of steady income, than hold my ground for what I have right now only to loose it in a couple of months. I dont work for Air Canada, but I do work with people who do and have many friends working the skies and the ramp and know that most of them would give their right nut just to keep going.

As for the service levels. If you get on any aircraft with someone obviously straight out of high school youre kidding yourself if you think service is going to be anything better than a Macs Milk.

Generally speaking, I have had nothing but excellent service with Air Canada and I have to fly them quite a bit for work. The best service I have received is the person in their late 20's to late 30's, who still enjoys travelling but has past that early 20's stage of "me, me, me" and has not yet hit that early 40's position of "damn it, damn it, damn it". In every industry there are bad eggs, its just that a nice, drop dead gorgeous 20 something sells beer a little better than the more mature fare that some airlines have (and considering you have to buy almost everything you get from AC, the need for cute 20 somethings is evident)

[Tan]

RoyHudd

Who did you say you worked for? I would like to compare your carrier’s track record with your criticism of AC. Ahh that’s right you're not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better.

hotndusty

Whets the matter couldn’t make the grade at AC so you’re hiding out in Dubai?

Get a life loser’s…

[Minorite invisible]

I see some people specialize in poster bashing but have no take on the subject of the thread. Do they even have an opinion ?

I travel often on Air Canada, and generally have great service from staff. I do not think that is a major issue. Of course there has been exceptions, but they were rare.

From talking to Air Canada pilots (who seem to refrain from posting here except maybe to bash other posters) they tell me that they gave up a lot in the last negociations only to see the investors rape the coffers just when things were getting better. Air Canada (or ACE) paid dividends (they claim) to the investors instead of giving the company a chance to recover properly and did not put money into the black hole that is the Air Canada pension fund. In Other words, the investors grabbed their money and ran, leaving the company high and dry.

Now, the company is asking the Unions to work with the company for further belt tightening measures, and the Unions feel this will only allow more coffer raping by new investors, leaving the company in financial trouble again.

What Air Canada needs is upper management whose primary interests is not the interest of big investors and big money, but the interests of Air Canada and its employees. Can these two interests be divergent ?

[Tan]

Minorite Invisible

Good post you seem to have a handle on the goings on at AC. Everyone thought that the vulture funds were tossing AC a helping hand during the bankruptcy but reality proved quite different. AC survived in the past in spite of all the Government meddling by being a whole company. The vulture funds with the help of inept senior management/board of director’s sold off all the profitable arms of AC and then expected it to survive and service its financial obligations in a worldwide recession. A classic story of money manager’s greed with little knowledge or insight into the blight of the industry. The travelling publics wish to travel on the cheap but cry foul when the industry training/ maintenance safety standards go down the toilet hasn’t helped the industry.

Maybe in the collective wisdom of government a new regulation will be passed prohibiting airlines from losing money.

[hotndusty]

Hey Tan,
..."not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better".
..."what's the matter couldn't make the grade at AC so hanging out in Dubai".

Firstly, you obviously don't know my background and also don't appreciate that I have many good friends at Air Canada - my hope is that AC, in fact, will become profitable again, but most importantly, that the divided cultures that exist there and can't seem to let it go will eventually begin tugging in the same direction. I do think that you've misunderstood not only the topic but my comments as not 'AC bashing' but rather just the opposite - that the survivability of AC depends on free market dynamics being accepted as well as a change in the overall mentality of management and employee there - including the standard of customer service. Lastly, your intelligent rebuttal has me wonder if you are an airline pilot older than 25 yrs. and unfortunately it's your attitude that sadly, is part of the problem.

[Johnny767]

The In-flight service at Air Canada is inconsistent. There are lots of F/A's that do a fantastic job, and a handful that are completely useless.

There are those, particularly on overseas, whose only motivation is to see how fast they can hit the bunk and catch up on their sleep.

Overall I do believe that the service (when done by the book) is very good.

The larger problem at Air Canada is the strength of the F/A Union, CUPE. F/A's live in a world of impunity and can get away with (almost) anything.

Couple that with the "socialist agenda" of Canada and it is...not good.

For our - out of country - friends you have to understand how upside down this place is.

It is the "Air Canada Component" of CUPE that has filed a "Human Rights Complaint" that F/A's and Pilots are;

"Work of Equal Value"

...and we should be paid the same!

Management need to resort to "ghost riders" and get a handle on the offenders. Then they need to have the guts to do something about it.

[Minorite invisible]

Anyone notice this Aug 1 article in the National Post ?

Propping up Air Canada (http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=1851195)

Ottawa has stumbled deeper into the practice of picking winners and losers from amid corporate Canada with its decision to pump $250-million into struggling Air Canada.

Some of the money will come from the Canada Account, the same pool used to bail out General Motors and Chrysler. The fund was established to promote export-oriented businesses but will be used to prop up Air Canada even though it produces nothing for export. In effect, it's become a slush fund for failing companies favoured by politicians.

Ottawa justified the infusion by noting Air Canada is dealing with "extraordinary circumstances" -- seeking to survive in a competitive industry during difficult times. But no money is going to rival airlines WestJet or Porter, though both face the same challenges and continue to thrive.

A spokesman said Stockwell Day, the International Trade Minister, was confident "the airline has developed a long-term plan to remain a viable business." One analyst told the National Post that Air Canada still suffers an "inflated cost structure, eroding market share, high debt levels, big pension deficit and depressed industry demand," but what does he know next to a federal Cabinet member?

In effect, Air Canada's competitors are suffering the same fate as Ford Motor Corp., which got its finances in shape before the recession hit and was penalized by having its rivals saved from extinction. Now it's up to

Cabinet ministers to decide which business plans are viable and which aren't, which airlines deserve to survive and which don't, which companies are worthy of federal lifelines, and which -- like Nortel -- can be left to the mercy of market forces. And this from a Conservative government.

[Tan]

Hey hotndusty

Unfortunately for you I have over 30 years at AC as a pilot and I recognize AC bashing when I read it. I do love my company and will not tolerate any stupid AC bashing from the likes of you or any other cranks like you.

[hotndusty]

Tan,
Congrats on the 30 years - it's almost time to retire.

[Tan]

To bad you’ll never make 30 years…

[sec 3]

Tan, you are the stereotypical AC pilot, a f##kin' pinhead. Fortunately guys like you are a minority at AC:} If you really think it's every kid's dream to be an AC pilot, you live a very delusional life. Many good drivers "made the grade", then turned it down because they were doing something better. Yah, it's the best gig in canada, but worldwide it's far from the best. Depends what you're looking for.

[Tan]

sec 3

What gives you the right to bad mouth AC or for that matter any company/person when you’re unwilling to say whom you work for or what you do to make a living. I've seen and heard your type throughout my whole career. You’re just another gutless wonder who never made it..

[hotndusty]

Tan,
"To bad you'll never make 30 years... FYI it's 'too' (two o's..)

[CanadaRocks]

Hi Tan,

Sec 3 drives a bus for a airline in the Middle East, like myself. Not Greyhound! I'm a TRI 330/340 at EY.

Congrats on the 30 years. Whats been your favorite aircraft. I loved flying the B727 at KF. Money sucked though MR. BL!

Regards,
CR

[Tan]

Hi CanadaRocks

That’s a hard question, as I like both the Boeing and Airbus products. I have to agree the 727 was a fun airplane the 763 even more fun and the 343 a little underpowered unlike the 345. It appears that I will miss the 787 and the 380 unless some miracle happens but I’m not holding my breath. Heck I like them all..

Wouldn’t it be nice if both Boeing and Airbus designed a joint aircraft using the best ideas of both manufactures.

[jinglied]

Mr "Tan"

Quote..

"It rather entertaining reading all the loser posts by the AC wantabee’s. What’s the matter loser’s, you couldn’t make the grade?"

Quote...

"hotndusty

Whets the matter couldn’t make the grade at AC so you’re hiding out in Dubai?"


Well, for a loser like myself who is "hanging out" with EK in Dubai, for you to suggest that making the grade at AC is so hard, I suggest to you that your thirty years in that company has clouded your senses. I spent a few years at AC a while back, and I will tell you the standards there are certainly no higher than most airlines, including my present one. The basics of your simulator process (AQP), as it was explained to me sounds very "comfortable". (I still have friends in AC with whom I keep in touch) And remember your old version of the FOM, the infamous "550 Manual", the basis of the "550 Course'? Without question the most disjointed Flight Operations Manual I have ever seen. Absolute crap. Credit to you on finally getting rid of that.


"Quote"

"Maybe in the collective wisdom of government a new regulation will be passed prohibiting airlines from losing money."

I have to assume that you are being sarcastic? Although I do recall reading something recently from a member of parliament about reregulating the airline industry? Can't find that article now...



"Quote"

"Unfortunately for you I have over 30 years at AC as a pilot and I recognize AC bashing when I read it."


With respect to you being 30 years at AC, I refer to my comment above. The rest of this quote tells me you have a keen grasp of the obvious.


"Quote"

"You’re just another gutless wonder who never made it.."

..again, I refer to my comments above.



Oh..how to have Air Canada return to profitability? Stop paying F/A's, gate agent's, baggage boys such ridiculous contracts for a start. When a F/A can make more than any brand new F/O, (as happened with me) something is seriously wrong. And it doesn't matter how senior the F/A is OR how junior the F/O. The employment culture within AC is killing it.

P.S. Don't bother coming this way. Dubai, the place, is ****e. Have a nice day.


Jinglie'd

[nolimitholdem]

hey there tan,

Another EK driver checking in. You couldn't pay me enough to work at AC, you see, I'd like to still be employed a year from now. If you think that's hating, think again. I just like a paycheque and you guys are "dead airline walking".

On the other hand, you're smart to resist the Emirates onslaught. There's no way you can compete with the slave labour of most of the airline here. It's crap that guys get a fortune to saunter our to marshall/load an AC flight. Do you really want to compete with people who load/cater/board/maintain EK's aircraft, in short, work their asses off, for peanuts?

So in short, get your head out of your ass. Or you're going to get stuck with the evil bastards we have in management. You do NOT want EK in Canada more than they are. And they are bound and determined, with huge PR campaigns planned and underway. They will parade smiling cute little asian F/A's in front of the cameras, a few people will remark about what great service they had on an EK flight, they'll bribe the government quietly with other incentive money, and voila, another Australia. You won't hear about the human rights abuses in the UAE, the lack of worker protection, the appalling way they treat employees.

You idiots are just making it easy for them to come and eat your lunch.

Think EK isn't coming?

How you can help | Canada | Public Affairs | About Emirates | Emirates (http://www.emirates.com/english/about/public_affairs/canada/how_you_can_help.aspx)

Notice which country is singled out with a special section?

The VP of International Public Relations, Andrew Parker, is a former British journalist. He will work the press against you until you don't know what hit you.

Smarten up!

[Tan]

Thanks for your advice, you folks don’t seem to be enjoying your self’s over there. For me AC flying is still fun.

Our returning international passengers tell us that the sight of the maple leaf on our aircraft makes them feel warm and fuzzy all over so EK has to top that.

Canadians are a funny bunch that way.

[SIERRA ECHO XRAY]

Here is the solution for you all canucks...serve more canadian bacon..:}

[nolimitholdem]

tan,

Warm and fuzzy because of a Maple Leaf? Come on. If anything, flying DXB-LHR on EK with full service, the best IFE in the world, friendly attractive cabin crew...and then getting on a clapped out old 767 for the leg to Canada with the chipped-paint toilets, crap food and service, the 70's-era projection TV...yeah, I was feeling downright sentimental.

It was one of the more shocking contrasts between two airlines I've ever experienced. Granted, not all of the differences between EK and AC are flattering to EK. But if you think that people's nostalgia over your brand is gonna save you, think again. Perhaps I get misty-eyed about the people I'm traveling to see, but the AC flight is simply something to be endured.

[Saltaire]

Well said nolimitholdem couldn't agree more, the difference between international AC and EK is not even comparable. We use to dread getting on AC from LHR. This is why the gov't is stepping forward and making an about face on "open skies". BA, Cathay, Korean, China, Singapore seem to do pretty well out of Canada...they would rather have warm and fuzzy service and a great product than fly a maple leaf tail. EK would dominate and destroy AC's product all day long, and they know it.

And on the subject on tails...Could AC have a worse livery? The previous one was great and I did feel a bit of pride seeing an AC tail.

I do wish you'd soften the arguement though, many of us would love to start ops to YYC and YVR !

And Tan, most of us make the best of it here, some even love it. EK flies to a far more varied and interesting network, not to mention the superior equipment and younger attractive FA's from the world over.

Making the grade at AC? The most nepotistic dad's buddy, jazz flow through, Irene H gift giving airline going. From another former AC loser :8, i don't miss it for a second....

[ea340]

Salaire the truth is AC service is better than most US carriers and on par with most European airlines.I have traveled on them all many times over the last 40+ years. AC can not compete with airlines from the far and middle east because they have no labour laws . This cuts both ways as you know you could be fired tomorrow without recourse make labour laws all of a sudden look good. Is EK a good company of course is AC as bad as you think I would say not. What AC needs is to be cut loose from the ACPPA then sink or swim

[Saltaire]

AC is plauged by entitlement, inefficiencies and lack of an intiative culture. We've all heard the stories of senior rampies, cabin crew or agents either selling their seniority shifts or manipulating a dated system all with the support of a union rep close at hand. Having said this, there are great employees from all operations, but there are too many that are not... I always felt sympathetic for the pilots at AC, the rest of the operation needs a serious overhaul.

I agree to a point, the job is certainly more precarious as an expat, but labour laws or lack of it isn't the reason AC can't compete. Overall it's a fundamental difference in work ethic, attitude and training. Look at Cathay and Singapore, including EK, the crew makes the passenger feel like they matter. The overall product and experience is vastly superior in all classes. Do you see any cabin crew as you board an AC flight? Perhaps all chatting in the galleys about dividing up their naps. How about the aircraft waiting for an AC marshaller whom saunters in from a chat with his union buddies? That used to drive me bananas. The attitude outside the flight deck at AC is shocking, and with the merger with Canadian it just became worse. The front line agents, rampies, cabin crew and a few other unions must somehow completely shift the internal culture for the better. Good luck

[ea340]

Saltaire I would say again AC not as bad as you think compared to other Western carriers.The service at EK QR EY is vastly suprior but as you know step out of line in any department and you are gone . So far this year EK has let several pilots go correct me if I'am wrong 2 for taking pics of their airplane.So you are right no unions and no labour laws makes running an airline much easier .In the end it is the passenger service and costs that count . The ACPPA is a cost AC can no longer carry because no one will pay for it. It could be in the end only airlines from low cost countries that survive much like the shipping business. AC moves head office to Bermuda just like Canada Steam Ship lines oh I forgot the ACPPA. Where is Paul when you need him

[Wolfman]

"AC is plauged by entitlement..."

That really does sum it all up. :ok:

[Tan]

Actually the poster should have said, “All of Canada is plagued by entitlement”. Sorry I had to correct your spelling

[Saltaire]

Thank you, plagued by entitlement. I assume when spelling is the focus, the discussion is over. I'm not the biggest WJ fan, but there is certainly no entitlement going on over there. They have an innovative, pro-active, customer based culture. ( calling them guests makes me gag ;)) Best of luck with the overhaul AC...

[Tan]

I didn’t mean to cut off your thoughts I just get tired of the AC bashing. Since you claim WJ has such a great culture why did WJ find it necessary to commit commercial espionage against AC with the full knowledge of their CEO and with the majority approval of the WJetters? They thought it was a great thing to do and denied the whole allegation until the court date was announced. Why do some of their pilots make unruly comments about AC over their PA system as reported by their passengers on the AvCanada forum? I could go on but why bother.

If that’s the type of culture you wish to endorse shame on you..

[Tree]

Well Tan, back in the old days of printed schedules CDN would publish theirs (using a third party print shop) and AC would soon afterwards publish theirs from their in-house print shop.
On all the competitive routes the AC flights would be scheduled exactly :15 before the CDN flights.
What goes around comes around old man!

[Tan]

Gee and exactly how does that compare to corporate espionage settled by $10M? It was done in the open by observing the arrival and departure of flights. Oh and I’ve never heard of CDN pilots ever making derogatory remarks about AC on their PA system. It would appear that you agree with this type of corporate behaviour. At least the old feud had class.

[Saltaire]

I didn't say WJ had a great culture. I don't endorse it, but they do have a strong corporate culture and have management and employees who are pro-active, innovative and intensely motivated. Unfortunately, there is a dark side which resulted in the incident you mentioned and perhaps an unhealthy competitive spirit towards AC. If they are making PA's slanting AC, then I agree, shame on them...very unprofessional.

The fact remains, AC needs to get it's house in order. The days of manipulating work schedules, entitlement, poor customer service, and a general lack of work ethic needs to end. AC needs a renewed work force and with that could, IMO, quickly gain back market share and win over customers again.

[yycflyguy]

Q2 results are not that bad.

Air Canada reported Q2/09 EBITDAR of $135 million with yields and the
H1N1 virus negatively impacting results. While results were weak, they
were not unexpected.

Projecting over $550 million profit in 2010.

[Tan]

I agree with your AC assessment and most hardly agree that some WJ pilots making comments about AC over their PA is very unprofessional. That's a practice I didn't know was going on until passengers reported it on the AvCanada forum. Hopefully those involved were disciplined but if past practices are ay indications of the future that didn’t happen.