Is ICAO level 4 English good enough?

[ComTransfer]

Hello to all,

I've been browsing around the forms and was noticing that there seem to be a few posts related to the English proficiency of pilots. It seems to be a universal problem.

Curious; to any of you who fly out of non-English countries, what is the level of English like where you fly? Has ICAO level 4 improved anything? I know we seem to have just as many language problems in our airspace as ever:ugh:. What kind of training are these guys getting?

Cheers

[Henry VIII]

I have similar question since long.

What kind of training are getting the english mother language guys, with their shiny English Level 6, but used to talk in dialect, with very strong regional accent, using local slang, etc. etc. ?

[BelArgUSA]

Would I say this - for FAA pilot licences...
The "English Proficient" in Title XIII is based on "ICAO Level 4"...
That is the only level issued by the FAA.
If you pass a FAA test and speak/read/understand English, you are "Level 4".
Test can be PPL/CPL/ATP/CFI whatever - automatically - and permanent.
As usual, FAA does not try to reinvent the wheel.
If you cannot do English, they make a limitation on the certificate.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Denti]

In germany there was no extra training or checking for ICAO level 4 yet. Every holder of an AZF (radio operator licence) was issued a paper stating that he is up to level 4 standard and when this has to be re-checked (3 year check interval? something like that). So there simply cannot be any improvement yet.

[Nightrider]

"Seville Reach xxx FL220."
"Reach xxx maintain 220 proceed AOG."
"Reach xxx 220 direct AOG; confirm status of AOG."
"Reach xxx I confirm FL220 direct AOG."
"Thank you Sir, can you give me the status of AOG."
"Reach xxx say again."
"Sir, can you give me the status of AOG? Is it off the air"
"Yes"
"Seville, can you say again."
"Reach xxx, direct AOG maintain FL220."
"Yes Sir, direct AOG 220; can you give me the status of AOG, is AOG operational?"
"No, direct AOG"......

silence thereafter...

Level 4....yesterday evening....

[411A]

Out to lunch, perhaps, Nightrider?
Perhaps it never occured to our referenced intrepid poster that just possibly...the aircraft at FL220 was just at the fringe of VHF contact with the respective controller?

[Nightrider]

411A, not lunch, had a couple of chats with Seville ATC again... :}

You didn' get the point.

The comm was from both sides crisp clear, the Seville controller simply did not understand the wording "confirm status" while the Reach pilot used the best american English from the backyards of San Antonio (no pun intended).

Both are at least level 4 certified and still no "common" language.:bored:

The system simply doesn't work, that was my point.:rolleyes:

[411A]

The comm was from both sides crisp clear...

Perhaps to you, in your airplane.
Now consider...the lower altatude of the other aircraft may well have precluded reasonable reception...or...the Seville controller's level 4 was, shall we say...not good enough.
Having flown in Spain since the 1970's, many times they have communicated to me in Spanish, when in fact we were doing sub-service flights for Iberia, and not one Spanish speaker was on the FD.

Enough problems from both sides in your example, me thinks.

Another thought...the English language is not the only official ICAO communication medium, so those that specify English always (never mind level 4) are barking up the wrong tree.

[TimeOnTarget]

If you do any flying in China or across India, you will quickly find out how tricky communication can be.

If everything is going well, and standard terminology is used, then no big deal. But when something goes wrong or we don't understand a clearance, etc, then we delve more deeply as we seek clarification, and we tend to utilize different words that the local guy may have never heard before. In the States, if you report traffic in sight, for example, you might say "Tally Ho". Most US controllers know exactly what you mean, but to say that to Kunming Control would be begging for trouble.

I might get away with saying "50North, 40West" when I should say "50North, 040West".

[ComTransfer]

Well there are certain carriers I will treat with "kid gloves" so to speak. For example, after being passed traffic at FL360, some pilots have been known to respond with :"Roger cleared FL360.":ooh: I now use traffic 1,000 ft below:ok:.

It raises the issue of standard phraseology and local idioms. True, most Americans are familiar with "Tally Ho" but you will very rarely here that from a Canadian just accross the border.

In Canada, it has always been common practice to issue descent "at pilot's discretion." However, we have recently been instructed to change our phraseology to "when ready" to alleviate any possibility of misunderstanding.

The authorities seem to believe that is safer. At any rate, how is non-English pilot, or controller for that matter, to be expected to understand the local variances?

[TimeOnTarget]

As a native English speaker, "when ready" makes perfect sense to me, but I never had a problem with "PD" either.

With the internet and other technology available today, you would think that we could have an international standard that pilots from around the world could access. I don't care what standard we use "line up behind, line up and wait, or position and hold", for example, lets just decide on one and use it everywhere. I know this is probably too idealistic though.