Flying in Russia

[WASCHAUS]

I would like to fly Vfr to Sankt Petersburgh Pulkovo ULLI
Who has some information about VFR Flying in Russia

[Ultranomad]

Very roughly: unless you are flying IFR to an international airport (i.e. one listed in Jeppesen for Russia; ULLI is one of them), you have to have a Russian navigator in the cockpit, or the PIC must be a Russian citizen. IFR flight plans usually have to be filed 24 hours in advance.
On the other hand, if you just want to fly in a club ATZ, you can most likely get away with it. In fact, you can probably take aerobatics lessons in a Yak-52 much cheaper than in W. Europe. I can put you in contact with the clubs near St. Petersburg if you want.

[Gabriel Marquette]

Hello,

I read with interest your answer about flying VFR to St Petersburg.
I am a French private pilot, flying in an airclub, and I love flying abroad. I would be delighted to fly VFR this summer to St Petersburg. If it is not possible to ULLI, as I understand, is there any possibility to fly to small airfields and who should I contact?

Thanking you in advance for your help,

Gabriel Marquette

[Ultranomad]

Gabriel, if you want to fly across the border, your first landing should be in an international airport, so in the vicinity of St. Petersburg it gives you no other option but ULLI. From there onward, you may be forced to hire a navigator to sit with you in the cockpit. Keep in mind that all airspace in Russia is controlled (no class G), and without Russian language you will be unable to communicate with Russian ATC - the only English-speaking controllers are on CONTROL frequencies (i.e. FIR/CTA control centres) or at international airports with scheduled foreign traffic.
Of course, you can also arrive on a scheduled flight and then fly at one of the local clubs, but again, you will be allowed in the left seat but officially you won't be a PIC - the current Russian legislation does not allow it.

[Gabriel Marquette]

Anton, Thanks for your quick reply! My intention was to fly from Tallin to St Petersburg and then from St Petersburg to Helsinki. Only international flights. In such case, regarding the presence of a Russian navigator, does the same rule apply ? Is IFR compulsory?
Regards, Gabriel

[Ultranomad]

Gabriel, in this case you won't need a navigator. The topic of IFR vs. VFR is a bit murky: there is no official stipulation you have to fly IFR, but if you fly VFR, you'd better be prepared to follow IFR-like procedures, and will you certainly need all the IFR plates for ULLI (they are available from Jeppesen). You can also file a VFR-to-IFR flight plan (so that you switch to IFR upon crossing the border) but put "REMAIN IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE" in the remarks box, so that you will effectively keep flying VFR. You can even try filing VFR, too, and see whether Eurocontrol approves it. I spoke to the briefing room boss at UMKK, who said: "If we get an international FPL from Eurocontrol, we will service it". To my question: "So, if my FPL has been approved by Eurocontrol, does it automatically mean I am all set and legal no matter what?" he said "Yes."

And speaking of Helsinki, you will be obviously flying to EFHF, not EFHK. Their VFR procedures are pretty constrained by the proximity of EFHK, and ATC at EFHF is extremely rigorous and exacting, so do your homework. Finavia (http://www.finavia.fi/) publishes a 1:100000 VFR chart for the Helsinki TMA - it's quite useful.

[Gabriel Marquette]

Many thanks, Anton, for your valuable advice which makes me encouraged to try to put my plan into action !
I will contact EUROCONTROL and see how they react. I might come back to you for further advice and to let you know if it works. I am sure it will be very interesting for other private pilot who would like to fly VFR in Russia!!!
Best regards,
Gabriel

[david viewing]

I found this discussion extremely interesting as I have flown to both Helsinki and Tallinn from UK and would like to continue to St Petersburg next time.

I'd be very pleased to hear the outcome of the Eurocontrol discussion. I wonder if there are any rules that would require the pilot to be IR qualified for such international flights, as opposed to VFR according to IFR rules?

I've read that there's no Avgas at St Petersburg but the route Tallinn - St Pete - Malmi is just about possible in a PA-28 and there are closer places in Finland to land but I don't know how they'd react to an unscheduled G reg arrival from Russia!

Another issue is getting a visa for such an ad hoc trip. Apparently the Russian authorities require a visitor to have an 'invitation' from a travel agent for an organised tour before applying for a visa and probably require airline flight details as well. Evidently there are some 'visa experts' down by the Russian embassy in Helsinki who can arrange things for Finns but it turns out that a Brit can only apply via the Russian embassy in London, who require an invitation, etc.. Does anyone know the way through this?

BTW, Malmi EFHF airport in Helsinki is a wonderful place for GA and the approach proceedures as noted by Anton require staying clear of Vantaa but are not too difficult and the ATC is first class. You can land at Malmi even when it's closed.

Tallinn is also very welcoming if a little strange at first sight (you are escorted to a locked room without windows, monitored only by a video camera and a phone which mysteriously rings) but it is just their way of being helpful and it is a much cheaper place than Helsinki. They do seem to like long holds for arriving VFR traffic, but there was (in 2008) no problem with Avgas.

[Ultranomad]

David, thank you for reminding me - you are absolutely right, there is no avgas available at ULLI, but a typical GA plane with a long-range tank option will make EETN-ULLI-EFHF without problems. Speaking of closer places to land, EFLP is a possibility, it is an international airport.
For the visa, you do need an invitation but flight details are not necessary. Even if they ask you, just say you will be driving your own vehicle, which is a very popular option anyway.

[IO540]

Unless I am missing something, if you file a VFR flight plan then you just need a PPL. If you file an IFR flight plan then you need an IR also. There is no way around this (legally :) ).

The fact that many 3rd world countries like to route VFR traffic on IFR routes (because they don't understand the concept of people flying where they like) is a separate issue... it's no big deal because one flies to these places only with a decent GPS anyway... but one needs a GPS with the IFR intersections, airways etc.

[Ultranomad]

Unless I am missing something, if you file a VFR flight plan then you just need a PPL. If you file an IFR flight plan then you need an IR also. There is no way around this (legally)
You file for an aircraft rather than for a specific pilot, and the idea is to file a Z flight plan with IFR for the Russian airspace only, and cancel IFR at the very first contact with Russian ATC.

[Anonystude]

The UK is (as far as I'm aware) one of the only countries to allow you to fly any kind of IFR without an IR. The concept that being 'IFR whilst remaining VMC with no IR' being legal seems to be a UK only kind of thing.

[IO540]

the idea is to file a Z flight plan with IFR for the Russian airspace only, and cancel IFR at the very first contact with Russian ATC.Jesus... you do this over a country which will shoot at you if they don't like you?

[Ultranomad]

Jesus... you do this over a country which will shoot at you if they don't like you?
To be sufficiently disliked for that, you'll have to do something really :mad: stupid.
On a serious note, there's nothing illegal in cancelling IFR en route if you remain in contact with ATC (there is no such thing as uncontrolled VFR in Russia).

[IO540]

Sure... I was thinking that this may be a neat way to avoid the need for a Russian interpreter, and the Russians might get a bit miffed if they thought people are filing IFR and then cancelling for this reason. I have never flown over there but have often heard that VFR flights need an interpreter.

Incidentally I would not even file an IFR flight plan (outside the UK) if I did not have an IR. It's probably not illegal to do so ... until one puts down the name of the pilot (who doesn't have an IR) on the bottom of the flight plan. That part of the FP doesn't get transmitted onwards, but it will sure as hell get dug out if there was some incident (or perhaps a diversion, without the original destination realising) and then questions might get asked.

Illegal VFR in IMC is something "we" have "all" done but leaving a paper trail is different.

[Ultranomad]

I have never flown over there but have often heard that VFR flights need an interpreter.

It's not VFR flights but rather any flights other than from/to international airports (as I wrote above, only FIR/CTA control centres and airports with regular foreign traffic have English-speaking ATCOs), and not just an interpreter but rather a Russian navigator. An "IFR-compliant VFR" flight to ULLI would not require one. However, even at ULLI (visited by scores of foreign airliners every day) the English language skills of some ATCOs are pretty murderous. This incident (http://www.pprune.org/questions/409608-swiss-1311-pulkovo-jan-10th-2010-bird-strike.html) led to a serious internal investigation. As it turned out, only the ATC shift supervisor on that day had ICAO level 4. Knowing the system, I don't expect the situation to change very quickly.

[IO540]

As it turned out, only the ATC shift supervisor on that day had ICAO level 4. Knowing the system, I don't expect the situation to change very quickly.

You could say the same for Spain, Italy, and other places in Europe. No wonder the ATCOs are unhappy about the ICAO language stuff and most are de facto ignoring it.

Many European ATCOs can speak the standard phrases like "cleared for the ILS" but are incapable of any conversational English.

Often it is plainly obvious they ignore a radio call because they cannot understand the words, and they don't want the problem recorded on tape. If they ignore you, the tape carries evidence of ... exactly nothing.

[Jidi]

I never flown in Russia before, only in Romania, but .. if I am not wrong, they use the metric system for everything: altitude/heights, speeds, METAR (cloud base, wind speed), etc. Even pressure is in mmHg and not in hPa. All russian airplanes I saw (AN-2, AN-24, AN-26, etc) have the altimeter in meters, the air speed indicator in km/h, etc. You might want to be very careful in case you'll fly alone.
Thing might have changed recently, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ultranomad]

Jidi, this is true: metric units, mm Hg, and QFE. However, the ATC at international airports will give you feet/NM/hPa/QNH on request. Russian approach plates are now published in both systems of units, but not all of them have been reissued yet. Some Russian airports are in Jeppesen, and the coverage is being expanded in the coming weeks (I personally translated 200-something Russian plates for them last month).

[tdbristol]

Hi,
I was planning a flight to Moscow Sheremetyevo in May (in a DA40).
A friend of mine runs a low cost airline based in Moscow so was able to help.
Conclusions I reached:
(a) IFR - OK with an IR and English only; VFR - Russian speaking person in the cockpit "essential"
(b) no problem landing at a civil airfield providing you book beforehand; e.g. Sheremetyevo is almost their equivalent of Heathrow, but landing fee - US $24; parking for one week US $36 (all costs in US $)
(c) BUT overflight permissions to Moscow costs the same it seems as a much larger jet. I don't remember the breakdown exactly but in all it came to ~ $2,000 for my DA40, Moscow to the border and back. (So in the end I flew to Berlin then commercial from there to Moscow.)
I guess it should be a lot less if you are only going to St. Petersburg but it is worth checking the cost of this.
(d) AVGAS is not available
(e) and a minor point: you probably want to be familiar with metres/change settings to metres, as that is what they give you on approach and a bit inconvenient to be asking for translations at that point.
(f) Russian visa: if you take the cheap route (~10 days after you have the invitation voucher) it costs £90 per person and has an exact entry & exit date. Allow plenty of time before and after these dates, but you have to get a hotel or someone else to confirm those dates and issue a voucher before you can apply for the visa. If you are early arriving and you are unlucky you may get locked in a hotel room with a guard outside (depending upon how they are feeling and how much you are willing to pay an 'on-the-spot fine'); plus don't be late leaving or you may get a much larger fine (as well as getting locked in a room with the guard outside).

[kalyuzhny]

Apparently, the rules concerning VFR flights in Russia have changed recently. They now allow VFR flights in G airspace, however the maps have still not been published, and there is a very strong suspicion that everything West of the Urals will be class A airspace, and some parts of airspace to the East will be G, or some other nonsense like this, which will render this new legislation ineffective.
Anton - do you have a view?
Also, if anyone is considering a trip to Russia, and needs a Russian speaker to share costs, flying etc (PPL,IMC, 300 p1 hours), I would love to come!

[Kerosene]

Also, if anyone is considering a trip to Russia, and needs a Russian speaker to share costs, flying etc (PPL,IMC, 300 p1 hours), I would love to come!

I'm planning a trip in my Hungarian registered YAK18-T from near Vienna to Odessa/Ukraine in the summer. Perhaps we could team up for this?

Also, can anyone share some experience of flying VFR to Ukraine?

Best,

Kero

[Gabriel Marquette]

Good evening everybody,
I reactivate 1 year after this interesting discussion. I postponed my trip to St Petersburg to 2011 but now I am almost ready for it.
I heard that the Russian legislation has changed recently (early 2011) to harmonize with other European regulations. Does it apply to IFR only, or to VFR also? Can anybody, Anton or somebody else confirm or infirm this information?
Thanks and regards!