1Time diverts to Overberg

[FabFlyer]

Anyone have any details as to why a 1Time flight diverted to Overberg on friday evening?

Apparently the runway at George wasn't long enough which leads me to suspect a flap fault. But that is purely my guess.

Anyone with actual details?

[grjplanes]

It was infact a 737-200 aircraft...don't know why, but the last few weeks 1Time sends in this aircraft for it's friday evening flight to GRJ. I saw it circling a few times over George, but didn't realise there were problems. Only heard it departing around 22:30 again, landed back in JNB 4 hours late.

[FlyItLikeARental]

We took off just after they turned to go to Cape Town. From the radio tx's it sounded like flap assymetry, so the flaps were stuck down. They climbed up to 4500' (if memory serves me correctly), then set course for cape town. GRJ then cleared them to 7000'. A while later on area they declared the emergency and asked for a return to GRJ. The controller then suggested Overberg, (didn't think a mil base would be useable to a civil a/c, but very glad it is!) which they accepted. It sounded like FACT approach did the controlling for them on 119.8. (we listened to both radios). It sounded like they could not go higher than FL100. Very glad they got it down safely! Well done gents, and the controllers were also magnificent in their handling of the situation.

[I.R.PIRATE]

FACT is a long, thirsty haul when you got those back-o-the-wingy-thingies hanging out. Perhaps only realised the fuel state on passing FAOB?

All's good that ends good.

[LittleMo]

Was it an Avstar -200?
The problem with the Fluffy is that with flaps down your limited to 210kias with flap 5 and a bit (assuming a flap5 takeoff and assym)

At 4500' with flap out your burn goes thru the roof (1700kgs/side/hour?)
That wit the westerlies blowing this time of year would have made CT as a divert (in that config) a very bad option.
I believe Comair uses Overberg, as well as Langebaan as a diversion as they have permission from the SAAF. Guess it helps with fuel saving as u dont have to carry as much diversion fuel.

[fsx]

Once again a pathetic decision by a certain pathetic captain.:=:=:=:=

[Champagne Lover]

That is quite a strong attack fsx, maybe you can fill us in on some of the detail? Maybe what he did (to you or anyone else) or bad previous decisions?

[Der absolute Hammer]

fsx...
Bismark would have offered you sabres at sunset.....
You may be correct on both counts as you say - but that is still cheap shot you make there.

[Dexterdawg]

fsx: That is a tad harsh and uprofessional, not to mention childish.

Whatever your personal opinion of the captain concerned, who I do not personally know. I think that, given the circumstances, a pretty good job was made of a bad situation.

You arent by any chance a wannabee captain or a frustrated beancounter??:=:=

[Der absolute Hammer]

Yes but I only just now saw that you can look at past postings.
I do not think that any captain need even do the deigning to consider as insulting anything posted by the one who has made such, well....pathetic past posts?!
Perhaps a three time looser?

[Gyro Nut]

Fsx, although strongly worded, I tend to agree. If anyone else knows this guy, he has a track record of unnecessary emergency landings, delays, refusing to go when MEL says ok. He refuses to talk to the rest of the cabin crew, except the purser.:=

From what I gather, the wx. conditions at George were fine. The B732 is well capable of landing in George, if a flap assymetry exists, and even a flaps up landing. This even if the runway is wet, and good reported braking is present.

A diverson is calculated using a normal climb to altitude, in the clean configuration. To divert with flaps and slats hanging out is pushing one's luck, when it's not necessary. He would have had no figures to calculate if he could make it ok. There aren't any figures for this in the QRH. His airspeed would be limited to maximum 230kts, and max. FL200. To put it bluntly, he guessed that he could make it to FACT. It's like diverting with your gear extended. Not the best decision, and possibly jeopardised safety in the process. The fact he wanted to return to George again shows things started going pear shaped. Does that sound like the decision of someone that is in control of the situation?

If it was anyone else, I wouldn't be so harsh as we can all make mistakes, but this guy has a certain history that only those close to the action would know about.:ugh:

[Shrike200]

From the B732 QRH (pretty much as stated above, just with a few actual numbers):

PI22.3 Non-Normal Configuration Landing distance (Dry Runway)

Flaps Up (this is the absolute worst case for runway used and approach speed) - the reference distance for a 48 ton landing weight (increasing by 330 ft per 2 tons above this weight, and 440 ft per 1000 above S.L.) is 4750 FEET. George is....what, about 2000m? +- 6700 ft? Approach speed in this case is Vref 40+55. Vref 40 at 48 tons is 132 KIAS.

LE asymmetry or failure is, respectively, 3250 ft reference distance, +170 ft per 2 ton, +180 ft per 1000 above S.L.

TE asymmetry varies, depending on if the flaps are <1 or 1-15, 3950ft, and 3600 ft respectively.

The Flaps up case goes up to 5100 ft with 'good' reported braking action, ie what one could expect with a normal wet runway.

So......why the attempted diversion? Unless I'm missing something, this aircraft should have been able to land at George with ANY flap problem?

All info barring George landing distance available is straight from the B732 QRH.

[Gyro Nut]

Shrike200, thanks for the figures. I've only got B738 figures, and she can also make it with ease.

My wife who has flown with him, says that's typical him, making questionable decisions when things go technical. Stranger than fiction!

[CJ750]

My apologies if i missed the time of the incident but was George open and the fire service adequate.

Also did they have Military and Civil Aviation permission to use Overberg as a diversion.....

:8

[Romeo E.T.]

Once again a pathetic decision by a certain pathetic captain.

I have only today discovered the name of the Captain, and in some way agree and others disagree....yes he is known to be extremely pedantic, and has created many enemies due to his decisions, but most if not all are in the interest of safety, except possibly in this case.

Looking at the figures myself in the QRH this morning the PPI figures are correct, so the aircraft is capable of doing it, but perception that FAGG is short is always there, and possibly the decision to divert was based on the percieved optical length rather than the "hard" figures in the QRH.

Unfortunately this decision based on the "safer-option" and longer runway at FACT almost certainly directly led to this almost becoming a major incident.

My apologies if i missed the time of the incident but was George open and the fire service adequate.

Yes George was fully operational at the time.

Also did they have Military and Civil Aviation permission to use Overberg as a diversion.....

NO....only Comair limited (as far as I am aware) has negotiated and SACAA approved to use Overberg and Langebaanweg as alternate.......but in an emergency any airfield can be used by any airliner and any air carrier.

[jagunmolu]

This commander is not responsible to any of you,so your opinions dont matter, in aviation every decision for the safe conduct of a flight rests on the crew,situations are never the same,and the PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight/A lot of hogwash been said is utterly irresponsible,having a track record of being an ars...h..ole has nothing to do with decisions taken by the PIC,its so easy to open all the BOEING volumes to justify the foolishness of the captain,he who wears it knows it.Lets all be proffesional and stop acting like SPs.The plane was safely on gnd with everybody safe,thats all thats important,when you become PICs do something different ,thats your call.I doubt any Captain worth his command would have contributed to this crap.It all seems you would have loved to see this guy kill people,PLEASE Grow up guys,Life is tough enough............EISH:eek::confused::*

[Gyro Nut]

Looks like I've got a lot to learn here. So if I understand you correct, as long as the a/c makes to the ground ok, never mind what poor decisions were made, it's ok?

Nobody here called him an "ars...h..ole". Those that know him, unlike you, know what type of decisions he has made in the past. But that's ok, he's the Captain and our opinions don't count. To suggest some of us would like to see him kill people is a bit disturbing and sick.:yuk:

[jagunmolu]

Good talk,suicidal or not its not fair to discuss such issues(professional) on pprune,he;s not retired, still very active,you have problems with this guy.take him to his CP.DFO.et al,We all know by now whom this so called guy is and i hope you are all Happy.What goes around comes around viciously too,Pray,I will MAKE A better decisons in his place,never really works out that way.For all you unbelievers I say GOOOODLUCK,:{

[CJ750]

I dont know who he is

[foxtrot mike]

The newspapers reported that the PIC was a Capt Pottie, who and I quote said; "has been a captain for about 10 years".

I see he is a DFE (111) at SAFAIR.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Look - I do not wish to become entered here into a mud throwing pie match but....and it is a thought possibly-
It does not matter what the newspapers may say. Pprune is not the name and shame website . I do not think that names like this, reported or even true, should be posted here.
Besides that - if the captain was not as you name him and if there is such a captain in real life, could not Pprune or you! be in trouble for the defamtion of character . Your comment about that captain being a what he is where he is is very specifical!
I think you should delete your post. Such finger pointing is not fair for either captain and not a good idea for Pprune.
Also-I see this is your first post in your present identity anyway. away-it is perhaps not called for.I have no clue who the man is and I do not care-I speak generally. Put up the knife fm!

[foxtrot mike]

Hammer, the name was published in the newspaper, which means it public knowledge. Why should I remove the post?

I don't know the guy either, but surely there is no harm in posting here as to what the newspaper said, or would you prefer me to post the entire newspaper article??:}

[Der absolute Hammer]

Probably the best thing to do - if you want to use this website as a forum for dragging some persons name through the mud.

[Gyro Nut]

I also agree that this should not be the right place for naming and shaming. Maybe shaming, but not naming.

I was told another name, not Capt. Pottie, who I was referring to with the "track record". If it is Capt Pottie, then I retract my previous posts and apologise, although I do still think the decision to divert to FACT was not a good one.

[Romeo E.T.]

Gyro Nut

I was told another name, not Capt. Pottie, who I was referring to with the "track record".

heard the same as you from Safair technical staff

[Gyro Nut]

Guess this is not a rumour network for nothing!

[cargodoor]

For what its worth:

From a family friend that was on this flight:

Before the flight had left George the a/c had a tyre blowout that had to be repaired even before the flap issue came about. (Sorry if this is useless info).

Also he said the the a/c used up all but the very end of the runway at Overberg (also could be useless info).

Cheers

[Romeo E.T.]

when looking at the figures again, the only reason for not using GRJ or divert to PLZ with split flaps would be if thrust reverse was also inop..

that could also explain using the entire length at Overberg

[Goldfish Jack]

Phew lot of mud-slinging going on here.

Lets keep it tidy - most of you dont know all, if any of the real actual facts, so lets not make assumptions.
'
It is a lot easier to talk after the incident - RET certainly has some good pertinent points.

The question is what would you do, whilst flying a let-down below MSA with this problem, bit of weather around, not many options avbl, high ground somewhere near you, etc etc etc.

Lets rather talk about the positive facts to this incident and lets all learn something from it, that we could maybe use later of in our lives.

The a/c got to the ground and the pax got to where they were going, albeit a bit later than they wanted to - thats fine by me

[Tarmak]

The Capt of the flight did a good job... Aircraft safe on the gound and no one hurt... He is the only one, of course including the F/O and and the rest of the crew who were in such dilema at that time, and praises must go to him/ them for not taking any chances in such circumstances, and do what was the best option, as proven by the results. Ya, it did cost money, time and inconvennience, but rather those than overunning George runway, bursting tyres, etc and perhaps costing lives!...

Bottom line-Well done Capt! But please dont be tooo pedantic and too painfull ( as per hearsay). Problems always finds you, when you look for them, haha!!!

[Gyro Nut]

The captain did such a good job, rumour has it that 1 Time doesn't want this guy to fly for them any more, and want to terminate the contract of the Safair B737's flying for them. Can anyone confirm this...

[grjplanes]

Since this incident I haven't seen them using the 737s to GRJ anymore, which I feel is great! That specific flight on a Friday afternoon seemed to have been a fixed contract, the Safair 737s did it every Friday in the 2 months prior.
Don't they have enough MDs by now to do all their flights, although I know Fridays are the busiest, they still have the morning flight to GRJ standing at GRJ for 1h35mins, before returning back to JNB!

[Tarmak]

Gyro nut, sounds like you had a tough time with the captain!:}

[Gyro Nut]

Nope, sorry. Never flown with him, but have first hand knowledge of his kind of operation.