1Time diverts to Overberg
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1Time diverts to Overberg
Anyone have any details as to why a 1Time flight diverted to Overberg on friday evening?
Apparently the runway at George wasn't long enough which leads me to suspect a flap fault. But that is purely my guess.
Anyone with actual details?
Apparently the runway at George wasn't long enough which leads me to suspect a flap fault. But that is purely my guess.
Anyone with actual details?
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It was infact a 737-200 aircraft...don't know why, but the last few weeks 1Time sends in this aircraft for it's friday evening flight to GRJ. I saw it circling a few times over George, but didn't realise there were problems. Only heard it departing around 22:30 again, landed back in JNB 4 hours late.
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We took off just after they turned to go to Cape Town. From the radio tx's it sounded like flap assymetry, so the flaps were stuck down. They climbed up to 4500' (if memory serves me correctly), then set course for cape town. GRJ then cleared them to 7000'. A while later on area they declared the emergency and asked for a return to GRJ. The controller then suggested Overberg, (didn't think a mil base would be useable to a civil a/c, but very glad it is!) which they accepted. It sounded like FACT approach did the controlling for them on 119.8. (we listened to both radios). It sounded like they could not go higher than FL100. Very glad they got it down safely! Well done gents, and the controllers were also magnificent in their handling of the situation.
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FACT is a long, thirsty haul when you got those back-o-the-wingy-thingies hanging out. Perhaps only realised the fuel state on passing FAOB?
All's good that ends good.
All's good that ends good.
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Was it an Avstar -200?
The problem with the Fluffy is that with flaps down your limited to 210kias with flap 5 and a bit (assuming a flap5 takeoff and assym)
At 4500' with flap out your burn goes thru the roof (1700kgs/side/hour?)
That wit the westerlies blowing this time of year would have made CT as a divert (in that config) a very bad option.
I believe Comair uses Overberg, as well as Langebaan as a diversion as they have permission from the SAAF. Guess it helps with fuel saving as u dont have to carry as much diversion fuel.
The problem with the Fluffy is that with flaps down your limited to 210kias with flap 5 and a bit (assuming a flap5 takeoff and assym)
At 4500' with flap out your burn goes thru the roof (1700kgs/side/hour?)
That wit the westerlies blowing this time of year would have made CT as a divert (in that config) a very bad option.
I believe Comair uses Overberg, as well as Langebaan as a diversion as they have permission from the SAAF. Guess it helps with fuel saving as u dont have to carry as much diversion fuel.
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Damning
That is quite a strong attack fsx, maybe you can fill us in on some of the detail? Maybe what he did (to you or anyone else) or bad previous decisions?
Last edited by Champagne Lover; 17th Apr 2009 at 12:05. Reason: acronym
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Harsh.....
fsx: That is a tad harsh and uprofessional, not to mention childish.
Whatever your personal opinion of the captain concerned, who I do not personally know. I think that, given the circumstances, a pretty good job was made of a bad situation.
You arent by any chance a wannabee captain or a frustrated beancounter??
Whatever your personal opinion of the captain concerned, who I do not personally know. I think that, given the circumstances, a pretty good job was made of a bad situation.
You arent by any chance a wannabee captain or a frustrated beancounter??
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Yes but I only just now saw that you can look at past postings.
I do not think that any captain need even do the deigning to consider as insulting anything posted by the one who has made such, well....pathetic past posts?!
Perhaps a three time looser?
I do not think that any captain need even do the deigning to consider as insulting anything posted by the one who has made such, well....pathetic past posts?!
Perhaps a three time looser?
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Fsx, although strongly worded, I tend to agree. If anyone else knows this guy, he has a track record of unnecessary emergency landings, delays, refusing to go when MEL says ok. He refuses to talk to the rest of the cabin crew, except the purser.
From what I gather, the wx. conditions at George were fine. The B732 is well capable of landing in George, if a flap assymetry exists, and even a flaps up landing. This even if the runway is wet, and good reported braking is present.
A diverson is calculated using a normal climb to altitude, in the clean configuration. To divert with flaps and slats hanging out is pushing one's luck, when it's not necessary. He would have had no figures to calculate if he could make it ok. There aren't any figures for this in the QRH. His airspeed would be limited to maximum 230kts, and max. FL200. To put it bluntly, he guessed that he could make it to FACT. It's like diverting with your gear extended. Not the best decision, and possibly jeopardised safety in the process. The fact he wanted to return to George again shows things started going pear shaped. Does that sound like the decision of someone that is in control of the situation?
If it was anyone else, I wouldn't be so harsh as we can all make mistakes, but this guy has a certain history that only those close to the action would know about.
From what I gather, the wx. conditions at George were fine. The B732 is well capable of landing in George, if a flap assymetry exists, and even a flaps up landing. This even if the runway is wet, and good reported braking is present.
A diverson is calculated using a normal climb to altitude, in the clean configuration. To divert with flaps and slats hanging out is pushing one's luck, when it's not necessary. He would have had no figures to calculate if he could make it ok. There aren't any figures for this in the QRH. His airspeed would be limited to maximum 230kts, and max. FL200. To put it bluntly, he guessed that he could make it to FACT. It's like diverting with your gear extended. Not the best decision, and possibly jeopardised safety in the process. The fact he wanted to return to George again shows things started going pear shaped. Does that sound like the decision of someone that is in control of the situation?
If it was anyone else, I wouldn't be so harsh as we can all make mistakes, but this guy has a certain history that only those close to the action would know about.
Last edited by Gyro Nut; 19th Apr 2009 at 10:09.
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From the B732 QRH (pretty much as stated above, just with a few actual numbers):
PI22.3 Non-Normal Configuration Landing distance (Dry Runway)
Flaps Up (this is the absolute worst case for runway used and approach speed) - the reference distance for a 48 ton landing weight (increasing by 330 ft per 2 tons above this weight, and 440 ft per 1000 above S.L.) is 4750 FEET. George is....what, about 2000m? +- 6700 ft? Approach speed in this case is Vref 40+55. Vref 40 at 48 tons is 132 KIAS.
LE asymmetry or failure is, respectively, 3250 ft reference distance, +170 ft per 2 ton, +180 ft per 1000 above S.L.
TE asymmetry varies, depending on if the flaps are <1 or 1-15, 3950ft, and 3600 ft respectively.
The Flaps up case goes up to 5100 ft with 'good' reported braking action, ie what one could expect with a normal wet runway.
So......why the attempted diversion? Unless I'm missing something, this aircraft should have been able to land at George with ANY flap problem?
All info barring George landing distance available is straight from the B732 QRH.
PI22.3 Non-Normal Configuration Landing distance (Dry Runway)
Flaps Up (this is the absolute worst case for runway used and approach speed) - the reference distance for a 48 ton landing weight (increasing by 330 ft per 2 tons above this weight, and 440 ft per 1000 above S.L.) is 4750 FEET. George is....what, about 2000m? +- 6700 ft? Approach speed in this case is Vref 40+55. Vref 40 at 48 tons is 132 KIAS.
LE asymmetry or failure is, respectively, 3250 ft reference distance, +170 ft per 2 ton, +180 ft per 1000 above S.L.
TE asymmetry varies, depending on if the flaps are <1 or 1-15, 3950ft, and 3600 ft respectively.
The Flaps up case goes up to 5100 ft with 'good' reported braking action, ie what one could expect with a normal wet runway.
So......why the attempted diversion? Unless I'm missing something, this aircraft should have been able to land at George with ANY flap problem?
All info barring George landing distance available is straight from the B732 QRH.
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Shrike200, thanks for the figures. I've only got B738 figures, and she can also make it with ease.
My wife who has flown with him, says that's typical him, making questionable decisions when things go technical. Stranger than fiction!
My wife who has flown with him, says that's typical him, making questionable decisions when things go technical. Stranger than fiction!
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My apologies if i missed the time of the incident but was George open and the fire service adequate.
Also did they have Military and Civil Aviation permission to use Overberg as a diversion.....
Also did they have Military and Civil Aviation permission to use Overberg as a diversion.....
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Once again a pathetic decision by a certain pathetic captain.
Looking at the figures myself in the QRH this morning the PPI figures are correct, so the aircraft is capable of doing it, but perception that FAGG is short is always there, and possibly the decision to divert was based on the percieved optical length rather than the "hard" figures in the QRH.
Unfortunately this decision based on the "safer-option" and longer runway at FACT almost certainly directly led to this almost becoming a major incident.
My apologies if i missed the time of the incident but was George open and the fire service adequate.
Also did they have Military and Civil Aviation permission to use Overberg as a diversion.....
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Cut out the BULL****
This commander is not responsible to any of you,so your opinions dont matter, in aviation every decision for the safe conduct of a flight rests on the crew,situations are never the same,and the PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight/A lot of hogwash been said is utterly irresponsible,having a track record of being an ars...h..ole has nothing to do with decisions taken by the PIC,its so easy to open all the BOEING volumes to justify the foolishness of the captain,he who wears it knows it.Lets all be proffesional and stop acting like SPs.The plane was safely on gnd with everybody safe,thats all thats important,when you become PICs do something different ,thats your call.I doubt any Captain worth his command would have contributed to this crap.It all seems you would have loved to see this guy kill people,PLEASE Grow up guys,Life is tough enough............EISH
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Looks like I've got a lot to learn here. So if I understand you correct, as long as the a/c makes to the ground ok, never mind what poor decisions were made, it's ok?
Nobody here called him an "ars...h..ole". Those that know him, unlike you, know what type of decisions he has made in the past. But that's ok, he's the Captain and our opinions don't count. To suggest some of us would like to see him kill people is a bit disturbing and sick.
Nobody here called him an "ars...h..ole". Those that know him, unlike you, know what type of decisions he has made in the past. But that's ok, he's the Captain and our opinions don't count. To suggest some of us would like to see him kill people is a bit disturbing and sick.
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Re;Cut out the BULL****
Good talk,suicidal or not its not fair to discuss such issues(professional) on pprune,he;s not retired, still very active,you have problems with this guy.take him to his CP.DFO.et al,We all know by now whom this so called guy is and i hope you are all Happy.What goes around comes around viciously too,Pray,I will MAKE A better decisons in his place,never really works out that way.For all you unbelievers I say GOOOODLUCK,