Relief crew rest

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Copy and paste from my groupwise yesterday (names removed); for a midnight departure to Europe with all HKG based crew....

"This mail is sent to you by XXXXXX via CrewDirect.

Dear XXXX, for your planning on our flight on Xth, I will work the first 2 hours and last 3 hours and take my rest in-between. The net effect is we all get a good rest! See you on XXX RGDS XXXXXX"

HOW DO WE ALL GET A GOOD REST CAPT PAJAMAS?

AFL

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Gee thanks Kent, funny hadn't thought about that mmm..... By the way thanks for the groupwise about the rest your silk pj's would have been placed in your mailbox today but since it is locked you can collect from central registry.

AFL

[A Scaler]

At least you got an email. How about being HKG based with a bunch of LAX based guys to get the big 'you know what, Im feeling pretty good, I think I'll work first' - for an afternoon dep out of HKG. Nice one fella's...

[Grivation]

Oh come on.....inflight rest has been contentious since we started doing longhaul. Either speak up and sort it out at the time or take what's given.

Whinging on here accomplishes nothing. We all know it goes on from time to time. :ok:

[parabellum]

I'm a bit surprised to see people still buggering about with rest on long haul. I count myself lucky that it was company policy where I worked to split it down the middle on such flights and be sure to tell your oppo what everyone was doing in good time before the flight to enable proper rest.

[A Scaler]

Oh come on.....inflight rest has been contentious since we started doing longhaul. Either speak up and sort it out at the time or take what's given.
Whinging on here accomplishes nothing. We all know it goes on from time to time.


But what ever happened to common courtesy?
All it takes is a simple 'hey guys how are you feeling for rest' or notice for a second that part of the crew might have stayed on a different time zone. Its not hard, I always ask to avoid any resentment... or if youre planning on doing opposite rest to what would be expected by a based/non based crew, drop them an email. Easy.

[treboryelk]

there are some guys out there who ALWAYS email early and let you know what is going on for rest...thanks!

"No need to email me about rest, with London based guys it is pretty obvious you will rest first!"

"True, but you have been in the SIm all week and i have absolutely no idea what time zone you are on or want to stay on"

"Well....you should be able to come to work and be ready to rest first or second anyway"

true.....we have to be ready to do as directed....but i think that last line comes from a chap who probably has not had to rest when he didnt want to for a couple of decades.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Europe based Captains are pricks, always have and always will be.

On an all daylight flight for them, the Captains will always make the HKG based relief pilot work through his Window of Circadian Low/HKG night, while the Captain was watching a movie through his evening. Why? He was the Captain and has no consideration for other crew.:ok:

I agree, the Captain has to have the proper rest but when the Captain got to HKG at 0000Z, which was his midnight, he went to bed. If he just got an afternoon nap and flew through his evening the HKG based pilot would be better off.:ok:

It you are not going to sleep, go to work. Why watch a movie when you know the pilots up front and craving for sleep.:ok:

Why? I can tell you why. It’s all about me and I don’t’ care about anyone else.

Welcome to Cathay Pacific Airways. Leading by example as always.:ok:

[CXChildLabour]

Hey mate, try doing an AKL flt as a SO or relief FO. 3 hours total rest, that's 2 hours from SET THRUST plus an hour from TOUCHDOWN. NOT TOC AND TOD. Doesn't matter if they had min rest in HKG or a week of G's in AKL some of the based crew would still tell ya they're pretty neckered.

[Apple Tree Yard]

..what a bunch of pathetic pansies. yes, flying a big shiny jet is such a difficult job...I imagine your mates back in Aus/NZ/Can/US/UK who do a 9-5 ditch digging job would be very sympathetic. stop whining. when you are captains, you will have your choice. until then, STFU and do your job. have a nice day.:ok:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

ATY, I commend you on a mature and well thought out post - NOT!

AFL

[badairsucker]

ATY.

CX CRM at it's finest!!



on the 400 by any chance????????

[christn]

The whole point of having relief crew is to ensure that the operating crew are sufficiently rested for the approach/landing/possible diversion. That is what we are paid for! Can't handle it? Get a different job.

[buggaluggs]

What I REALLY love, is to be the RQ, and get the ****e rest, and be given the sector ( your first for 6/7 weeks! ) :ugh:

Lov'n me work

[christn]

I agree, but safety comes before recency. Politely decline the sector.

[Subwoofer]

The whole point of having relief crew is to ensure that the operating crew are sufficiently rested for the approach/landing/possible diversion.

The whole point of having relief crew is to ensure that the crew flying the airplane at any given time is awake enough to handle any emergencies, which may not be the case if they're struggling to stay awake.

[yosemitisam1]

The whole point of the Captain sending an email to the relief crew, advising the intended rest for the flight,
is so you can plan to be rested for your stint in the seat.

[Sqwak7700]

The whole point of the Captain sending an email to the relief crew, advising the intended rest for the flight,
is so you can plan to be rested for your stint in the seat.

You are missing his point, yosemite.

I think subwoofer was bringing attention to the fact that inflight relief is meant so that the whole crew should be rested and alert while at the controls, as opposed to just the two guys in the seat being rested for takeoff and landing (which is how many of our crew interpret in-flight rest requirements).

I definitely agree, an e-mail when planning on doing something non-standard should be a minimum. This also helps if the whole crew is based in the same location. I always thank the Captain for such a courtesy, it certainly makes life easier and it certainly shows good leadership and CRM, which is quite lacking among many at Cathay.

If you are planning on doing what is expected, then an email is not as important but still appreciated.

I forgot where I read it, but I remember some article about noise complaints. It said that people where a lot more understanding when they knew about the noise and how long it would last, than when they where caught by surprise and had no information as to the duration. A little off topic, but somehow I see how this could also apply to other unknown variables, such as rest.

[mephisto88]

7700, couldn't agree more that it would be ideal if all crew were adequately rested. However, the reality is that more often than not, one pair will do better than the other, and common sense would clearly dictate that it be guys who are to be in the seat for TO & ldg.
Perhaps AlphaFloors silk pj dude was just erring a little to far away from the big picture, but I do quite like the idea of taking the middle 8hrs!.

As an aside, in times past it was normally common courtesy for the skipper to contact the other crew, I have almost always managed to achieve this, by either phone or email. Nett result - people rock up knowing what to expect, may not be to their liking, but at least they could plan ahead, and generally they were grateful for the heads up. It appears this is becoming less common place. Perhaps subtle suggestions could be once again directed to those who never/no longer do this, as ultimately, we all benefit.

I can appreciate that with roster changes etc, who actually rocks up may not be who you actually called/emailed, and conversely one sometimes comes across an individual who on principle doesnt check his emails until he next comes to work, but hey thats fine, I've got no problem with that, but he then just gets to take the rest thats given, rather than what he expected.

Any whining is normally met with my explanation of what I had to put up with on early Classic ULH with 3 pilots, where often @TOC it was 5hrs in one seat, a whole hour off, 5hrs in the other seat, (while the other 2 had 6hrs each with their teddy), and the last 45mins to yourself often sleeping through the landing still in the bunk.
So to quote Choppers advice, some people just need to 'harden the f**k up', especially as it's likely we will have more important things to be concerned about in the very near future if we are to remain as a united group.

Brgds

[Basil]

just the two guys in the seat being rested for takeoff and landing (which is how many of our crew interpret in-flight rest requirements).

That is exactly how I interpret the requirement both as heavy or operating crew.
The first airline in which I flew heavy crew would as standard have operating crew fly (roughly) first six hours, heavy crew next six and operating crew back in half an hour before ToD.
How it's done on the day is up to the operating captain - you'll all get there one day :ok:

[raven11]

Good post mephisto!

I'd almost forgotten ULH in the classic. Three pilots and two engineers. It truly was as you put it. To achieve the FDP you had to burn out the relief so that the other two pilots got adequate rest to extend the duty. The relief's FDP began at sign-on and ended approx 12 hours later. He was in the seat for a max of eight hours at one time, rested for an hour then back in the seat to an overall max of ten and a half hours!

Excellent closing para as well!

[VR-HFX]

Raven

Thems was the days!:ok:

[8888]

Yes, let's compare life to the dark ages, shall we. That's so helpful...

You were bullied at school so everyone else should cop it good and proper...

Morons

[raven11]

Nice post 8888.....Some testosterone in your baby formula tonight?

You're suggesting that if real men like you were here, back in the day, you would not have stood for it...is that it?? You 8888 would have stormed into Noel Jone's office and slammed your baby fist on his desk, is that what you're suggesting? You would have demanded four pilots, three flight engineers, and A++ Scale is that it?

Gee, that's pretty rich 8888 considering it was you who "copped it good and proper" when you accepted the diluted and watered down employment conditions that you joined on...and not me!

So just who was bullied...and who's the Moron?

Am I being any more helpful now?

[Sqwak7700]

Technically 8888 is right on. He could have worded it different, but he makes a valid point.

Just because that is the way it used to be done, doesn't mean that it is correct. If that were the case, we would still be using NDBs and Sextants for navigation. I'm sure that there will be some yahoo posting how we should, but you can either move along with progress or just get run over by it.

I agree with Mephisto, there is only so much you can do. Schedule changes and people that don't check their e-mail might miss out, but there is only so much you can do. No-one is asking for mind reading here, so I think you understood what I was getting at in my previous post. ;)

[raven11]

You're right 7700, he should have worded it differently.

The point people from "the dark ages" of fifteen years ago are making is that conditions have improved. Today we have four pilots sharing the rest instead of three, flying in a VHF and CPDLC environment. So those of us who are relics from the past can't help but be ammused at some of the whining we read here.

The captain will always pick his rest. That's just the way it is... And always will be. Most guys are fair and decent about it. A few are jerks. That too will never change.

[buggaluggs]

I agree, although those duties on the classic sound like a "mission" there's little point in comparing apples to oranges. If I understand correctly, those where the days of the 7 day long haul patterns, and lower monthly hours. i.e. far more sleep opportunities down route. As opposed to around 24hrs or less off down route. Added to this the loss of 5,4,3 protection and ( in busy times) 3 days off between long hauls became the norm.

Having been RQ on the 400 for 5 years it gets to the point of how many nights sleep can I 'lose' in a month and still function! :zzz: Yeah I know ..... " harden the F**k up "

The upside being I've only got 8 or so more years of RQ to look forward to before a command comes up :} .

I also agree that some European skippers seem to be the least cognitive of the body clock time of the relief crew. I wish I had a euro for every time I have been working through my circadian low while the skipper is in the back having " dinner and a movie ", on what for him is mostly a daytime flight. It's not everyone, some guys are outstanding at arranging rest, others, not so much.

What would be nice is if CX could add another page to crew direct, where the skipper/crew could input the rest they would like/expect. So that you at least know before hand that you're in for the short straw! This could perhaps 'stick' to the flight, so that if a crew member is changed they can still see what the plan is?

[Hellenic aviator]

Buggs,

That's a good suggestion - why not post it on the JRC page in Crew Direct for consideration when the AOA and Management reps meet in their next monthly meeting. At the very least, you'll receive a reply from DS .
:ok:

[744Cap]

Agreed, the e-mail system is a great way to get everyone on the same page leading up the flight. I use it on almost every leg. Ninety-plus percent of the time, it seems appreciated and definitely leads to less tension in the cockpit. If people don't bother checking e-mail beforehand, that's not my problem. I give a short briefing when we board and reiterate that I sent the e-mail and what the schedule is.

In terms of what the schedule should or shouldn't be, I guess we all have our own viewpoint. It's true there are some CN's who remember being FO's and others who don't. I personally do and try to be fair to the other three. Having said that, it's my airplane and my responsibility to have both myself and the flying FO alert after 12+ hours in the air. I have a formula that seems to work relatively well. Example - HKG/LAX: 12:30 block; I usually work the first 2:00, 2:00 off, 2:30 on, 4:45 off; 1:15 on. That's just how I prefer it, but I also don't adopt an attitude if someone wants a slight variation. I try to be fair but will admit I do occasionally shaft the SO and am apt to give them a 6:00 - 7:00 block in the middle if I feel it's needed for everyone else to be rested(particularly on "shorter" ULH's). I know some of you think that's unfair but a) they're young(!), b) they have 0-50 ULH's in their system so far and c) they only do it for 2-3 years. I started as an SO here when I was 24...you can do anything when you're 24. After 400+ ULH turns, talk to me then. :)

As someone said, just be patient. Your time will come and while it seems like a long time, you spend a ton more years here as a CN than any other seat...or at least you used to (another subject for another day).

[4 driver]

Do most CN's split the rest or the the work? There is a difference.....

[GlueBall]

As a last resort you can always flip a coin to stop the whining. :rolleyes:

[cxlinedriver]

The Relief Crew take what they are given. You are been paid to give rest to the front seat drivers. Can't hack it? Then quit! If anything we are too kind to the Relief Crew, since the AOA has managed to get us up to 900 hours from 700 we are less safe than in the past.

[buggaluggs]

Hell yes, why don't the relief crew just get in the seat at 10 grand, and get out of the seat at 10 grand! Easy really! :ugh: While we're at it why don't we just sh!t can the operating sectors for the RQ guys, we're operating on the absolute bare legal minimum of annual landings anyway, that can't be the safest option can it! :yuk:

Yeah I know.... wait your turn.... and harden the fu*k up :hmm: