Dead Stick Takeoff [Archive]

UL Power

5th Apr 2009, 22:41

Hope I can get my Escapade to half what he does in the highlander when I have finnished it.

Highlander is a USA bush version of the UK Escapade.

Mark
G-POZA

Cron

5th Apr 2009, 22:47

I guess many on here have flown a Hang Glider (not a paraglider) - for those that have not that vid is totally representative of a HG take off but about 50% faster.

The wind noise is the same as is the 'off a cliff' sensation (in nil wind conditions).

The way the sight picture works out is the same but I suspect his glide ratio is somewhat less than a HG (13:1 ish on HG).

Regards

Cron

IFMU

6th Apr 2009, 00:42

I first saw that video a few months ago. This guy is my new hero.

-- IFMU

Lightning6

6th Apr 2009, 00:58

Mmmm...Can't make my mind up if that was clever or stupid....Good though.

J.A.F.O.

6th Apr 2009, 01:54

not sure if he is barking or a genius

No need to decide, he's clearly both.

MartinCh

6th Apr 2009, 01:54

Not the most responsible thing not to check 'take off path' beforehand.
I guess pushing it down was his way of 'safety improvement'. Let's hope no hikers around the bottom of the hill.

Cubs etc have reasonable glide ratio and low stall speeds, low wing loading, so why not? Paragliding pilots do so as a standard. So do hang gliders. Unless car winched or with engine harness or trike.

Flintstone

6th Apr 2009, 03:52

Bloody stupid if you ask me.

As Hyperborean said, just because you can[i/] doesn't mean you [I]should. He was committed from a few seconds into the roll with no plan 'B'. If anything had slowed the roll he'd have had nowhere else to go with the only upside being that there was little chance of him taking anyone else with him if it all went wrong. Having spent several years as a bush pilot I've seen the results of people 'experimenting' and none of them were pretty.

The man's an idiot.

Maoraigh1

6th Apr 2009, 20:49

If this had been a glider bungie launch, would anyone have commented?

IFMU

7th Apr 2009, 01:25

I did mention he was my new hero. I also agree he's barking and a genius took, with a little idiot thrown in for good measure.

But, is it really as dangerous as it might seem, though it may be a little sporty for some (like my own) tastes? No plan B? What about an engine start?

If I was him, I would not have done a deadstick take off right away. Would have been a careful build up, taking off with partial power, taking off at idle, and seeing how much margin you have. This is if you can get over the fact that just landing on top of a mountain like that is nuts period. I'd never do it. I'm afraid of heights.

-- IFMU

gfunc

7th Apr 2009, 13:05

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know why the phrase is "dead stick" rather than "dead lever" (or "dead plunger" on a Cessna)?

For some reason I always initially think of dead stick meaning the control stick (or yoke) is shot. Maybe sounds even more exciting and dangerous in the bar?

Cheers,

Gareth.

Uncle_Jay

7th Apr 2009, 19:46

If you look at the sand bar he laneded on, you can see he has done it before there are tracks. Also, he could have started the engine if things went badly.

Dead stick probably refers to the dead feeling in the stick with no engine, no P-factor etc.

foxmoth

7th Apr 2009, 19:58

Dead stick probably refers to the dead feeling in the stick with no engine,

I think you will find it actually refers to the piece of wood (though many now are made of metal) that normally wizzes round at the front!:hmm:

Pace

8th Apr 2009, 00:26

He is purely tapping into potential energy much in the same way as a glider instead of using his engine.

Bob Hoover was well known for his displays switching off his engines in a commander twin and flying a loop engine out to a landing.

In the right hands not that dangerous

Pace

Flintstone

8th Apr 2009, 02:42

Lightning6

8th Apr 2009, 02:56

A bungee launched glider is designed to do that.

This guy had nowhere to go if it had gone wrong on the roll. A soft patch would have slowed him with the potential to hit that farking great rock and I don't care how well he knows his aircraft he'd NOT have been able to start the engine in time.

Bloody stupid.

I agree, if he'd have got it all wrong, and survived, I suppose he would expect emergency services to rescue him, at great cost. I put him in the same category as base jumpers and the like. They think of nothing else than an adrenalin rush. That's not what flying is all about.

Shunter

8th Apr 2009, 06:15

That's not what flying is all about.
Not for you, clearly. Everyone's different.

There sure are some miserable old gits in aviation. He clearly has intimate knowledge of the surrounding terrain and knows his aircraft. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with this chap using the laws of physics to his advantage.

The Beer Hunter

8th Apr 2009, 09:17

Miserable old gits. What, as in old pilots? Well you know what they say about those don't you?

As others have said this stunt had no escape procedure if the take-off roll had gone wrong. The was nowhere to go but that rock. Gross stupidity.

rans6andrew

8th Apr 2009, 14:35

most take off rolls have a point where if it goes wrong the result is not going to be good. Almost anywhere between "rotate" and actually clearing the airfield fence is likely to be tricky. At least there was no reliance on the engine to keep supplying the motive force in this case. Gravity is pretty reliable, never been known to fail without warning, always gives 100%.

My only concern with this is the distance to the nearest civilisation, if he cocks up the landing and has to walk back..........

R6A

patowalker

8th Apr 2009, 16:07

He probably only filmed that rock for effect. It could have been well out of his path.

Torque Tonight

8th Apr 2009, 16:18

Having the engine off means less airflow over the elevators and reduced pitch authority. Being in a taildragger, rolling down 'rough as f---' earth, covered in rocks, massive divots and vegetation, the risk of nosing over seemed rather too large for comfort. Nose over on a 1:1 slope dropping off a mountainside and you'll have a really bad day.

Impressive, ballsy, eye opening, 'a bit of a laugh' etc...YES.
Airmanship, sound judgement, responsible, safe....NO.

Funny how there are always a few who accuse those who question this sort of flying as being miserable old fuddy-duddies. However, when you get into an aeroplane as pax, do you want your pilot to be some balls-out, adrenaline junkie, risk taking, barnstorming cowboy. No, thought not.

Pace

8th Apr 2009, 16:35

do you want your pilot to be some balls-out, adrenaline junkie, risk taking, barnstorming cowboy.

Thought most of the RedBull air racing pilots fitted that category :) We need some colour in this grey old world of ours

Pace

Torque Tonight

8th Apr 2009, 17:05

I agree that this world needs a bit of colour, but I suspect the Red Bull pilots are some of the most precise, safety-concious guys out there. I get the feeling that the bloke in the video falls more into the flying circus category, but I could be wrong - maybe he is Bob Hoover!

QDMQDMQDM

8th Apr 2009, 19:55

Miserable, miserable gits. Someone does something interesting and skillful and well thought out and all you can do is whinge that it's stupid and dangerous. If the only stuff we had to discuss on these forums was your flights in PA28s wearing Hi-Vis jackets then it would all be a little dull, wouldn't it?

Pace

8th Apr 2009, 21:07

but I suspect the Red Bull pilots are some of the most precise, safety-concious guys out there.

Torque

You obviously missed the video of one of them beating up a control tower posted in these threads :)

I am sure this guys antics were also precise as he did some pretty precise stuff even to an engine out landing.

While not something I would do myself or even have the guts to do I must admit to secretely thinking " good on you ".

We are an overregulated finger pointing society and for me its a breath of fresh air to see someone buck the sytem now and again and IMO healthy too :)

Pace

IFMU

9th Apr 2009, 00:59

We are an overregulated finger pointing society and for me its a breath of fresh air to see someone buck the sytem now and again and IMO healthy too

Of course, this is the states. I don't think he bucked the system. If something had gone wrong they might have gotten him on a reckless charge, but otherwise I don't think it is illegal. There are pilots who do things that are beyond my comfort level. As long as I'm not in the airplane with them, and they aren't over my house (or anybody's) it is not totally irresponsible. If his stunt had gone awry he would have hurt nobody but himself.

-- IFMU

Lightning6

9th Apr 2009, 01:26

Of course, this is the states. I don't think he bucked the system. If something had gone wrong they might have gotten him on a reckless charge, but otherwise I don't think it is illegal. There are pilots who do things that are beyond my comfort level. As long as I'm not in the airplane with them, and they aren't over my house (or anybody's) it is not totally irresponsible. If his stunt had gone awry he would have hurt nobody but himself.

-- IFMU

And of course, the rescue services plus the investigation afterwards doesn't matter eh?

IFMU

9th Apr 2009, 01:55

And of course, the rescue services plus the investigation afterwards doesn't matter eh?
Of course they matter! That's my tax dollars at work. Is that dead stick takeoff more crazy than some of the serious rock climbs people do, or the guys whitewater rafting out west? What about the recreational guys fishing offshore? Some of those folks get in trouble and need rescue, too. Should we keep everybody home and safe? I hope I never see the day. If they go after his freedom to do a deadstick takeoff out in the boonies, my freedoms are not far behind, even if my middle age has taken some of the edge off my risky behaviour.

I do have to admit, though, that I'm not faultless when it comes to risk taking. I did slip a C172 with flaps once...

-- IFMU

Lightning6

9th Apr 2009, 02:05

I do have to admit, though, that I'm not faultless when it comes to risk taking. I did slip a C172 with flaps once...Shameful := , I have to admit doing the same :) Mind you, there is nothing in the POH to say you can't.

Mark1234

9th Apr 2009, 02:55

What has the world come to - are our lives so comfortably dull that we have to point and decry anyone who takes a few risks?

We don't know how well thought out this was - it could range from suicidally stupid to really quite mundane, depending on the experience of said chappie, and his planning and forethought.

In any case, I'm sure that the tax dollars we pay (for example) into healthcare for the afflicted idiots who smoke themselves into an early grave are far more than those inflicted on us by the few who get up to this sort of thing - I reckon we get far more value for money out of the nutters than the smokers :E

On a related, I have heard legend of gliders doing touch'n'goes on a ridgetop field - dive in on the spoilers, touch, close spoilers, and float off the end into the ridge lift, climb out, rinse and repeat.

(P.S. You wouldn't catch me doing it mind you....)

Lightning6

9th Apr 2009, 03:07

Reading the pro's and con's, I find myself sitting on the fence now. I can appreciate both sides of the discussion, well, most of them anyway.

IFMU

9th Apr 2009, 09:40

On a related, I have heard legend of gliders doing touch'n'goes on a ridgetop field - dive in on the spoilers, touch, close spoilers, and float off the end into the ridge lift, climb out, rinse and repeat.
They do that over here too. Maybe we need a deadstick T&G thread!

-- IFMU

cockney steve

9th Apr 2009, 16:59

Done before
If you look at the sand bar he landed on, you can see he has done it before there are tracks

Uncle Jay said it, right there!

-So-much for "skilled,sitationally-aware pilots "

IFMU also raises the obvious:-
If his stunt had gone awry he would have hurt nobody but himself.

repeat performance for the purpose of making this very entertaining video.

Obviously a very experienced user of this machine and it's pretty self-evident that he's very carefully assessed any risk before attempting what at first appears to be a hairy stunt.......given the steepness of the slope, he'd have great difficulty NOT taking -off (unless the wheels ripped-off :\. Have a look on you tube and there's a rigid-wing "hang-glider that takes off in the wind, from a virtually flat plateau. suppose that's reckless, dangerous etc. as well?

Pace

9th Apr 2009, 18:10

To put it another way if it had been a glider pushed over the edge of the slope using the slope as a launch ramp no body would blink an eyelid.

A powered aircraft with a stopped prop looks dramatic but the principals are the same :)

Pace

stickandrudderman

9th Apr 2009, 19:34

I want a go.
And if I get a go the nay-sayers can beat me with sticks as much as they like for when I'm in my dotage in my rocking chair I want to be able to say I did everything in life that I wanted to.
(actually, for reasons stated above I'll probably never make it to a rocking chair).

Lasiorhinus

10th Apr 2009, 12:01

Not the most responsible thing not to check 'take off path' beforehand.
And what makes you think he didnt?

IFMU

12th Apr 2009, 01:33

From the Cessna 120/140 association forum:

I've had conversations with the dead stick T/O guy. He flies a Highlander, and did several take offs with power and then at idle. He's no fool, and of course it has a starter as well. It's one of those things that look harder than it is, and he approached it safely.
Actually less danger than a short field with trees at the departure end, you see he had an answer to "what if the engine quits"

-- IFMU

LH2

12th Apr 2009, 12:47

The Ultimate Flying Cowboy, isn't he? :} :} Have a look at this other video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zioQVUSWcY) here. On-board Country-blasting stereo and all :p

I used to have a colleague at work who taught himself aerobatics back in the 60's from a book he bought at a flea market. Apparently he and his mate used to fly over to his girlfriend's village aiming not to go over any power lines.

As he put it to me: back in Montana if you got yourself killed doing anything stupid your mother would probably be a little upset for a while, but that was it.

Different mindsets for sure. Live and let live.

Crazy Fokker

18th Apr 2009, 14:52

I was actually amazed and quite entertained by this guys videos. As others have said he clearly knows his aircraft and the landscape incredibly well, he obviously wouldn't attempt anything as daring until he'd made sure there was minimal risk.

There's a clear glide down to the sand bar and he has ample altitude to keep his speed high enough. As we all know those Highlanders can stop in such short stretches, it's not surprising that someone somewhere has all the necessary ingredients to really show the world what these puppies are capable of :ok:

Think of the reception Bob Hoover got when he rolled the 707! And there aren't many that would stand up and criticise Bob's airmanship. He also was known for rolling twin engine aircraft with pax on aboard.

L'aviateur

18th Apr 2009, 17:19

I do have to admit, though, that I'm not faultless when it comes to risk taking. I did slip a C172 with flaps once... Shameful := , I have to admit doing the same http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif Mind you, there is nothing in the POH to say you can't.

Not wanting to seem stupid, but why can't you slip a 172 with flaps, I have done it on a few occasions without giving it a second though, until now.

IFMU

19th Apr 2009, 01:37

Think of the reception Bob Hoover got when he rolled the 707!

Uh, that was Tex Johnson. It was good but not quite Bob Hoover.
YouTube - Boeing 707 roll by Test Pilot Tex Johnson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE)

Not wanting to seem stupid, but why can't you slip a 172 with flaps, I have done it on a few occasions without giving it a second though, until now.
It has been a long time since I flew a 172, but I seem to recall the POH cautioned the pilot about slipping with full (40 degrees) of flaps. My understanding was the downwash from the flaps could impinge upon the horizontal stabilizer when in a big slip and cause pitch excursions. I've never seen it though.

-- IFMU

Lightning6

19th Apr 2009, 01:49

IMFU....In my POH it states "When landing in a strong crosswind, use the minimum flap setting required for the field length". Interpret that as you will.

Crazy Fokker

4th May 2009, 00:59

Originally Posted by IFMU

Uh, that was Tex Johnson. It was good but not quite Bob Hoover.

I beg your pardon, you're quite right....If you google Bob Hoover and 'rolls 707' you can see how I was mislead. Particularly, many other aviation forums have threads whicvh credit him as the guy was responsible.

I do find this strange though, as I do recall watching a documenatary about B. Hoover...where clips of him rolling the 707 were shown.

Whatever:ouch:!