What would you do and why?

[Outwest]

I am looking for input on a hypothetical emergency being discussed during sim training.

Scenario:

An ARA approach to an offshore installation (100 miles offshore) in marginal weather that is barely within limits (foggy,3/4 mile vis, 2-300 foot ceiling).

The wind favors a landing by the left seat pilot (LHP), the RHP will fly the pilot monitored approach.

At the MAP (.75nm) the LHP announces " visual, I have control", takes control and starts to maneuver for the landing.

A ENG FIRE light illuminates.

Would you:

A) disregard the warning light, continue to land and deal with the emergency on the deck, or

B) overshoot, and carry out the ENG FIRE drill.

C) is there a C?

[donut king]

Given your scenario this is my decision making:

1) you are "inside the faf" if one can call it that on the ARA!
2) "visual" call equals visual maneuvering for landing
3) YOU'RE ON FIRE! assume that you really are...we have no choice in the matter.
4) assuming you're on profile

PLANT THAT PIG ON THE DECK!

For me, I would not want to climb back into IMC conditions...ON FIRE!

But that's just me!

DK

[Squeaks]

What's the aircraft emergency procedures?

For me:

c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?

Reason? Safest option :hmm:

[Outwest]

For me:

c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?


Sorry, not an option.

Reason 1, too heavy for a single engine landing. Reason 2, nowhere near enough time to carry out the drill.

[Squeaks]

Hmmmm.

.75nm to run, at least 45 - 60 seconds to the deck. That's quite a bit of time to carry out essential fire drill (memory items, not the full check list), surely?

Too heavy after a transit? Practically.... I beg to differ. Overtorque the good engine if you have to, but get the thing on the deck: there is no safer option.

(Been there, done that: one engine blew up in flight 10 minutes after refuel, heavy, inter-rig shuttles, 5 feet run on needed without overtorquing. Bugger the charts ;) )

[Outwest]

Sorry Squeaks, as I said, shutting down the engine and doing an OEI landing is not an option (for whatever reason).

Faced with that, would you choose option A or B?

[slizer58]

Under the situation, I would continue the approach & landing to the helideck.Most aircraft designs(Fire Wall) will alowed and contained the fire. Make a AEO approach and land.

[Squeaks]

Most aircraft designs(Fire Wall) will alowed and contained the fire.

Murphy was also an optimist :p

[Um... lifting...]

As I read it, you're setting the crew up for one of maybe three things (there might be others, I suppose):
*overshoot, put the fire out, go back ashore to a runway (you've already said they can't pull off a single-engine landing from 3/4 nm out)
*overshoot, fail to put the fire out, put it in the water, which might be a mite unpleasant as apparently they haven't got the power on one engine to put it on a deck, so putting it into an unknown sea state could be a little problematic
*land on two engines either on the deck or in the water, one of which engines may or may not have been on fire for the last minute or so of flight. Either one of these is going to take you about a minute to pull off.

Or perhaps you're going to be fiendish and immediately make the weather go south on them again as soon as Junior says "I have controls... oh, what's the pretty red light?" so they're forced to overshoot and be indecisive. Hard to say, really.

It's also going to depend upon the actual fire procedure in the aircraft in question. Some older machines have optical or otherwise somewhat unreliable fire detection systems and I've seen a couple which have as their first step "Attempt to confirm presence of fire" or the like. I'll grant you, none of them recently, but still.

Anyway, at 3/4 nm on an ARA, you should already be at Vse (or so close to it that it makes virtually no difference) and level, so you're not going to get a much higher likelihood of success should you choose to shut one down, especially after having burnt almost an hour's worth of fuel.
I don't find the scenario particularly realistic as written (if you get the indication right at 3/4 nm, you've got a full minute to touchdown, maybe 6 steps in a fire procedure and the first (establishing s/e profile) is already done, landing checks should already be done, so it's identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, fire a bottle, whatever...), but then again, maybe I'm missing something. You didn't actually say how many engines were on the machine, either, though I assume it's 2 from post #4.
If there's a 'C', I might attempt to confirm the fire, but again, that's a bit tricky in IMC while as the non-handling pilot you're supposed to be attending to other matters.
What is the instructional objective here? In general, unless you're reconstructing an actual scenario, it's typical to come up with the objective first and then construct the scenario around it.

[paco]

No drills, land on the water, get the rafts out. Could get expensive if you set the rig on fire as well - that's if they don't push you off anyway.

Phil

[Outwest]

Your choice of options, with no latitude, is a poison chalice

We are frequently asked to drink from that cup unfortunately :)

Ok, people seem to be fixating on the 100 miles, let's say it is only 50 miles or less. The basic question is, and again assuming an OEI deck landing is not an option, is it better to:

Continue the approach and land on the deck and fight the fire (if there really is one), or overshoot into IMC, complete the drill and proceed to the land based alt, overshoot and attempt to remain VMC, run the fire drill and if things go bad (can not put the fire out etc.) ditch beside the rig?

This is only a thinking exercise and looking to see what trainees thought processes are.

No drills, land on the water, get the rafts out. Could get expensive if you set the rig on fire as well - that's if they don't push you off anyway.

The above is an option "C" to consider.

Oh, and did I mention it was night :eek:

[Um... lifting...]

Well, I think the last step would be start sending out CVs to companies with aircraft that can fly on one engine... because I think whatever you do, you're going to lose this job, or at least the only airframe in the stable.
Of course it's at night... the freezing level is about 20' above your head and it's the copilot's first night away from his mother, for heavens' sake.:p

It's going to depend... if you're going to a real rig with real firefighting capabilities (which, if you're shooting an ARA, the odds are fair that you are) or the ability to get your machine over the side, you might land on (you'll probably lose your job, but whatever). If you're in some backwater without those things, you might want to go in the water (of course, there may be no one to get you out of the water there, either), though I might ask you what you were doing going out there in that sort of weather in the first place. I can sell you either one.

[Epiphany]

During the approach checks what did the landing pilot brief the other pilot that his actions would be in the event of a malfunction before committal point? My guess is somethiing like -

'In the event of a malfunction before I call committed we will go around to the left/right and climb to MSA. Start the stop watch, call Nr, height and airspeed, no shutting down of an engine below 500' unless there is a fire.'

That is what the other pilot will be expecting and if If I were the sim instructor I would be expecting the go around too.

[eagle 86]

The problem with simulator instructors is that they can dream up many situations where there is very little margin for a successful outcome/survival. Lets face it you could devise any number of scenarios where death is the probable outcome. You haven't mentioned whether the engine with the firelight is still producing power - but late in the post you say it is now night time. The answer - put it on the deck - it is the most survivable of a number of poor choices.
GAGS
E86

[Outwest]

'In the event of a malfunction before I call committed we will go around to the left/right and climb to MSA

Ok, a bit of thread creep here, but that brief always gets my hackles up. I had a pilot who used to say as part of his brief " any problems, I will overshoot to the right......blah blah" I would look at him and say ANY problems? We are going to overshoot with low Transmission pressure? Engine/MRG chip light? etc, etc.....

Back to the original question.....

[Geoffersincornwall]

.......What about confirming you have a genuine problem before taking precipitate action. I believe it is still the case that you are more likely to have a false indication of engine fire rather than a genuine one.

I have said before that if you get out alive and brought everyone else on board with you then you made the right decision.

I love these challenging sim scenarios but I wouldn't rush to judgement on the outcome. There are some heart-rending stories from real-life accidents where the crew made all the right calls ........ except the last one....... and it killed them. If you read all the accident reports you can get your hands on you will come to realise just how much influence 'lady-luck' has on the outcome.

Personally I would go for an AEO rig landing unless I had some other indications (smoke,smell) that all was not well. At that range the deck crew should have you in sight and may be able to tell you if they can see any signs of a problem. If I had a genuine fire then I would try to put it out whilst the CoP flew towards the rig. An OEI landing in the water if the fire doesn't go out - burning helicopters not very welcome offshore! That said if the conditions for ditching were extremely unfavorable then bugger the rig's problems I would do an OEI landing on the deck. (If conditions for ditching were that bad there is probably a strong wind and I don't think OEI landing would be all that problematic although wind direction may be a factor).

Years ago we operated the Bo105 offshore and the nearest alternate was 187 miles away. We had to carry alternate fuel for all our infield shuttles but I don't think any of us contemplated a 187 mile flight on one donkey on a winter's night. It was going to be an OEI landing come what may. Fortunately the Fulmar had a chinook-size deck.

G

[Epiphany]

Outwest,

I've never had an issue with that. I would rather a missed approach with ANY warning lights. Get away from the water/obstructions, climb above 500' - then sort it out. Once it is sorted then make your decisions.

[Broadcast Control]

As posted earlier fire drills must be initiated immediately (not after 40-60 sec). However, it may take time to confirm that the fire is extinguished. 3/4 mile vis would allow circling the rig at low level (with the benefit of a quick emergency landing on water, with emergency asset close by, if the fire continues). If the fire is out, circling the rig would also permit burning!!!!!!!!!!!! down fuel prior to landing.

[Epiphany]

Climbing into cloud won't kill you. Flying around at 300 feet over water at night in poor vis with both pilots concentrating on fires drills just might.

[jeepys]

Get it on the deck with both engines with no f+*£ing about.

Weather not favourable to climb up and sort it out and as you say too heavy to land SE.

[chester2005]

Is this not a test of "are you going to second guess the POH?"
If the POH states "land immediately" then ditch
If the POH states "try to confirm and follow fire drill xyz " then do it.
Don't we all have to put our faith in the people who design the machines and write the POHs or do we think we know better?

Chester:ok:

[This aint Jim Beam]

put it on the deck with both engines

1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!

[Variable Load]

put it on the deck with both engines

1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!


That's the one that gets my vote :ok:

[Epiphany]

No POH of a twin engine helicopter is going to tell you to ditch with a single engine fire - unless you can't put it out. You carry out the immediate actions. Then when you are in a safe flight mode you do the follow up actions.

I had the privilege of being a sim instructor not so long ago. It was a privilege because I was able to see how a cross section of pilots with different backgrounds, experience levels and cultures coped with emergencies in periods of high workload. Most pilots cope quite well with an engine fire in the cruise.

Give them one on finals to a rig at night in bad weather and that is when the problems start. The ones who ended up with a red screen were the ones who tried put out the fire and continue with the landing. Mostly this happened because the flying pilot was concentrating on the landing and the non-flying pilot shut down the wrong engine. Or the flying pilot's attention was diverted between landing and confirming the correct fire drills and messed up the approach.


The ones who eventually diverted or landed on the rig safely OEI with the other secure were the ones who carried out a missed approach and did the correct drills.

[Broadcast Control]

Climbing into cloud won't kill you. Flying around at 300 feet over water at night in poor vis with both pilots concentrating on fires drills just might.

Epiphany, where does it say "at night" in the first post?

When performing emergency drills at least one pilot should be flying the aircraft - basic CRM.

Having spent hundreds of hours flying low level over the sea I admit that emergency procedures are challenging under these condtions, but that is also the case when IMC.

It will take 40-60 sec to approach the rig, how much longer would you like to fly with an engine fire that does not extinguish?

[chester2005]

How about basics of Aviate Navigate Communicate, surely whilst you are not in danger of CFIT you are safer than risking it all going wrong nearer the rig or closer to the deck.
Missed approach, carry out drills ,
1, if engine fire; OEI approach and land, or run on landing, if thats not possible ditch close to the rig as safely and as controlled as possible.
2, if no engine fire; set up approach again and land AEO.

Chester:ok:

[Epiphany]

Broadcast,

Out west changed the goal posts in post #12. That was when I decided to put my two pennyworth in.

The scenario was for a simuator session NOT the real thing. If I were the TRE in the sim and you did not carry out the correct drills then I would tell you about it in the debrief. If the scenario were for real then there is no freeze button or TRE to debrief you.

All that I would say is that the sim is a great tool and having seen hundreds of crashes due to pilots not following the correct procedures and hundreds of successful landings due to pilots following the correct procedures - I know what I would be doing. What you do for real is your problem.

[JimL]

Squeaks,

All offshore helicopters operating in PC2 will have power to climb but will only have power for OEI landing if the wind is strong enough or the payload is light.

I would like to know what 'all the aircraft I have flown' are.

You are clearly not an offshore pilot.

Jim

[rotorknight]

Even though is probably the most trained emergency in the simulator,is there anybody out there that has actually had a real engine fire on the modern(Puma,76,92 etc) helicopters.
Most of us have probably had false ones,but I just wonder if there have been real ones.
Other wise I would most probably go with Jim Beam's solution

rotorknight

[diginagain]

I'm assuming that the original question was aimed at testing procedures in the sim, but this is the perspective of one of your pax (albeit a former twin pilot).

For real, there'd be a bloke on the helideck with radio comms who'd let you know if that red caption reflected reality. He's got a team of blokes in fire-retardant suits, some of whom are manning foam cannon, who could do a good job of extinguishing the fire if you put the cab on the helideck. Our ladders aren't that long.

[Outwest]

Squeaks, calm down, I never meant this to go to where you would lose the will to live or to play mind games. :rolleyes:

I apologize for what some are calling shifting goal posts, I simply neglected to provide too much info so as to try and get a good cross section of opinions, which I did, so thanks to those who posted.

I will now "come clean". The sim in question is the S61, so anyone who really does have time in the old girl will tell you an OEI landing on a deck, unless extremely light, is not an option. The sim is night only.

The situation we were dealing with is an ARA and giving an ENG FIRE where the weather was set so that the crew may become visual. The problem was exactly the same as the discussion going on here now......many opinions/options and the fact that we could not say what the "right" choice was has resulted in this:

No ENG FIRE drills if the rig weather is set to a level that will allow it to become visual.

[ascj]

well done on the question 'out west' you've certainly got a mixed responses. As a single engine day VFR only pilot my first response would wtf am i doing here, but then i'd choose the deck landing. if its that bad that the chopper gets pushed over the side then you would have ditched anyways and you've made the right choice. it might be hard to see the instruments with a cabin full of smoke..

so do i get the job:ok:

[Squeaks]

Outwest,

Mea culpa: too much Coonawarra red and Aberlour malt, my sincere apologies.

Offending posts removed :oh:

[Outwest]

Squeaks, although you did not need to remove your posts on my account, it does show you are a gentlemen. Something a great many posters on PPRuNe could take a lesson from :ok:

Thanks again to all who provided their thoughts. The ability to be able to access the wealth of knowledge and experience of such a diverse cross section of pilots is fantastic.

Best regards

(Sorry ascj, hiring crew is above my pay grade :) )