Drunken crew

[CJ1234]

I am just starting in the airline industry and have a number of questions that just intrigue me as I read pprune. There is a story about a Thomsonfly pilot turning up on the flight deck drunk (or rather, over the alcohol limit).

Could I ask what the procedure would be if, let's say, you're a captain and you suddenly notice alcohol on the F/O's breath. What are the official procedures regarding this? If you refuse to fly with him, who do you tell? Do you phone Ops? Who do you notify? What do you say to the crew member in question? What do you say to the pax?

It must be a really awkward situation. I just wondered if there were any skippers out there who would know what to do - or even better, a pilot who has actually had to do it - and just give a little clarification.

Many thanks
1234

[beachbumflyer]

And what if you are the F/O and the captain is drunk?

[bucket_and_spade]

If I thought my cockpit colleague might be unfit for duty due to alcohol, I'd speak to him/her first, PRIVATELY. I'd express my concern and suggest they call in sick. In the very unlikely event that they ignored the advice, I'd go sick to delay departure and have another go at convincing them that this still didn't necessarily have to go beyond the two of us. Worst case is that none of the above works and you're still not happy - then you do what needs doing on the day to ensure that your colleague doesn't operate the flight.

Who knows what might have happened the night before? Maybe they found their spouse in bed with someone else and they hit the bottle. Maybe their kid just died and they hit the bottle. Who knows? The point is that we're all human and sometimes :mad: up. It could be a one-off serious lack of judgement - not something that should necessarily end a career.

There are ways and means to handle this - every situation will probably be different. The end result is common sense and has to be the same though - your colleague can't be allowed to operate the flight!

B&S :ok:

[irishpilot1990]

full marks goes to the last answer..:ok:

[Northbeach]

With our pilot’s union taking the lead, together with the company we fly for, at our airline there is a program in existence where a pilot is able to voluntarily disclose any substance abuse problem. At that point that pilot is taken off flight status (kept on the payroll with benefits) and enters a structured program where the goal is to return the pilot to full health, and then if at all possible return them to flight status. Throughout the long structured, refined and monitored process, years, there are many benchmarks to be reached and the pilot’s adherence to being free of the offending substance is scrutinized strictly. Over the years numerous individual’s futures have been saved and their careers salvaged.

The key to this process is voluntary disclosure. If the pilot recognizes his/her own substance abuse problem, asks for help, and is willing to put in the tremendous effort it will take to reach wellness then help is available. On the other hand if that pilot show up for work and is impaired then that pilot can expect to be terminated, stripped of their professional licenses, face a ban from ever working in the industry again and will face the full legal consequences for their actions.

In nearly thirty years of flying I have never seen the slightest indication that anybody I have ever flown an airplane with was compromised with alcohol and/or drugs in any way whatsoever. It is extremely rare, but it does happen.

[Double Zero]

Bucket & Spade,

That's the best, most considered answer I have ever seen.

I'm an aerial photographer with 20 years experience, luckily for me mostly with Test Pilots.

I do however try to be useful rather than ' sitting there ', keeping a casual eye on the instruments and above all a look-out for other traffic.

A while ago I spent a season photographing houses from a Cessna 172 ( terrible quality results, and dodgy navigation as we didn't have GPS ).

One of our 'pool' of CPL pilots was an obvious prat, a young playboy from a very rich family ( hence relatively easy CPL ) who I warned the other photographers with no aviation experience to avoid like the plague, as I did.

Eventually the day came when I was stuck with him; he was often hung-over, drugged or both, and his parents seemed happy that he would turn up late from any direction, having spent the night in a ditch !

All went OK until we arrived over the target town to photograph, when he promptly fell unconscious.

As we were a photo' aircraft it was quite credible to stay circling over the area ( I'm not even a PPL but have handled light aircraft plenty of times ) while I pondered ' What now ?! '

I could have got the aircraft back to base & landed, but would have had to declare an emergency & ask for a straight-in approach.

Fortunately ( ? ) the pilot came around, and took us straight back to base, with an ' interesting ' landing.

I have often thought I should have gone ahead & rodgered the chap's career for the safety of others, but there was the consolation that

A, he may have learned his lesson,

B, Every airline interview he went for turned him down flat, so they presumably could spot a pillock when they saw one...

I am still troubled if I did the right thing, though our employer knew the score; not that he was aviation & safety minded, or that I would P' on him if he was on fire !

[Agaricus bisporus]

[I am still troubled if I did the right thing,]

So you should be.

Because you didn't.

he may have learned his lesson

Fat chance!

As you explained he had been doing this on a regular, repeated basis. Leopards seldom change thir spots, this was far, far from the one-off scenario so thoughtfully presentd by B & S which rightly deserves some compassion/discretion.

Think how troubled you'd be (and for how long...) when you see this guy's name attached to a fatal accident, let alone if it turns out he has made airlines in the meantime, and had his accident there.

One short, sharp warning for this type of offender, next time a 999 call, no discretion.

[CJ1234]

Excellent responses, but how would you sort the situation? I realise, Double Zero, that you let the bloke off and didn't say anything, but presumably you'd HAVE to make a complaint in airline flying. Do you just phone ops and say 'I'm not flying, 'cos my colleague is inebriated'? Or would you say he's just been 'taken ill'?
Any airline folks ever experienced this? Anyone familiar with the procedure? The airline I've applied for has now sent me all the various manuals to study, including Ops manuals, but there's nothing about this in those manuals.

1234

[Double Zero]

Aparagus,

I tend to agree with you - I didn't do the right thing, reporting the idiot; and it's not as if I was in a job for life or similar.

There is the consolation that the chap in question never did get a flying job ( the incident was a fair few years ago ) and modern testing seems pretty strict; if he's the same now he'll never get past the first minute of an interview.

However I agree with you, I should have spoken up at the time even if it meant my never flying again in my photographic role; BTW I've been with pilots who put the aircraft & occupants including a famous ex- Test Pilot I presume he was trying to impress ( huge mistake ! The T.P.in question, a true gentleman, has since passed away, his effects are on display at Tangmere ) in much more risk at ultra low level, which was met by a dignified silence when we landed.

About all I can do now concerning the berk I first described is to check he hasn't got a flying job, but,

A, I think that company is bust now,

B, Don't think he has a flying job ( quelle surprise )

C, How would I go about it ?


Regards,

DZ

[bucket_and_spade]

CJ1234,

You won't find answers to every situation in your company manuals - you'll have been hired because the company are confident you can have a decent stab at solving problems and making decisions on the day. My answer was woolly on detail because I'd imagine every scenario would involve different factors. You know the end goal - your colleague not operating - and as long as that is achieved that is all that matters. That said, I'd suggest banding about "alcohol" with dispatchers, passengers and handlers in earshot (and crewing on the phone) means the likelihood of a genuine, one-off mistake (with extenuating circumstances) not becoming very career-limiting, very quickly is low :bored:

As for what you tell the company if it gets to that point, you won't be asked for a list of symptoms - you tell them you/your colleague are/is ill/medically unfit for duty. The company call in a standby - no drama. The flight is delayed but no one dies as an inebriated pilot mishandles an engine failure at V1.

Just look out for the other guy and don't assume the worst from the get go!

B&S :ok:

[potkettleblack]

Many airlines or pilots associations have support groups who provide sound heads that you can go to when out of the ordinary situations such as these occur. Often the head of the group will be a much respected older skipper, the type of person who is likely to take aside your drunken pilot and tell them that they need to take themselves off the roster for a while and seek some professional help but that failure to do so will not be tolerated.

Also be careful at jumping to conclusions and being seduced into a situation which doesn't exist. Not everything is black and white. Many a young pilot has fallen down at job interviews and been sucked into the old trick questions regarding "potentially" drunk pilots or bottles of alcohol being seen poking out of flight bags.

[Agaricus bisporus]

DZ, I don't think it is appropriate for you to do anthing about it now - the situation involving you is in the distant past. This sort of thing has to be dealt with on the spot; while the subject is still under the influence or Police medical checks will reveal nothing, in which case your future as a flying photographer might indeed become shaky. I'd have no fear otherwise though, almost all pilots, and all right-thinking ones would support you 100% for reporting a repeat offender, and probably thank you for doing it too.
What to do about him now? I'd leave it be, that's down to his colleagues to deal with, whoever they are. However if you thought he was still in aviation, and still doing it then it might be a different matter. Hard call, that. CHIRP would be one approach.

As others have said the technique for handling a one-off is very diffrent, and several ways can be taken.

But be it-one off or habitual offender, you've got to be 110% certain of your ground before you make an allegation to anyone apart from the subject, and pretty damn cetain before you even challenge him privately. A horrible situation to find yourself in.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I think with the well publicised consequences for turning up for work over the limit, most people would accept 'if there's doubt there's no doubt' and accept your tactful suggestion to call in sick (blame it on the curry)!

[Nicolaus Silver]

Should have acted before you got lumbered with him, or anyone like him. Inform next in line that you have heard about the booz and don't want to be rostered with him. Buck passed to hands who may be well placed to deal with it.

At the end of the day.........it had to be done.

[Pilot Pete]

A difficult situation for sure. Some other points to consider, which make it even more difficult than it first appears.

1. You have a duty of care role as an employed pilot. As the captain, this is obvious. But as an F/O suspecting your captain of having consumed alcohol you do too. If you deem him incapable, who is the legal commander now?

2. That duty of care doesn't end when you 'refuse to fly' with him/her or tell them to report sick. So in the unlikely event that you get him/ her to agree and they call in sick, then what? You going to wave goodbye to them as they walk accross the staff car park to their car? Perhaps they may be legal to drive as the limit is higher here in the UK, but how do you know? How would you feel if they knocked down a kid on a crossing on their way home? Could you justify everything you had done and be seen to have acted reasonably? Remember, you are making the decisions because you think their decision making is impaired due to alcohol consumption, so you can't just wash your hands of them as you leave the crew room.

3. What about the duty of care you have to your employer and future passengers? Do you think a stern word and sending them off home with a 'personal' warning of 'don't let it happen again otherwise we won't be able to keep it amongst ourselves' is adequate? What if they are an habitual user? What happens when they report for another flight and the next pilot doesn't spot any problem and then said individual gets the reject drill wrong and they have an over-run that ends in flames? Would you still be able to justify your previous decision to not mention it to your employer? would you have the guts to come forward then? Or would you thank god you hadn't mentioned it and were able to keep stumm now?


Decision making can be tough at times and getting it wrong can have serious consequences. What you have to do is always think 'SAFETY and be 'REASONABLE' in your judgement and you should be ok. It may be reasonable on the grounds of safety to tell the guy to call in sick. It may be reasonable (as you have known him/ her for years) to treat it as a one-off if you know of no previous problem. It would not be reasonable to let them drive home (I'd order and pay for the taxi myself and put them in it) if you suspected them to be over the drink drive limit. It would be reasonable to talk to them once they are sober and lay your cards on the table about ANY future occurence that you hear of. It would be reasonable (if not nice) to tell your employer immediately...that's a call for you under the specific circumstances. It may be reasonable not to tell them straight away, BUT, remember it may not be (indeed is unlikely to be) you flying with them next time....so is it reasonable not to warn your other colleagues?

Always remember who has made the error of judgement here, be it intentionally or not. They took the drink, they chose to take the risk, they got it wrong. Be very careful, be understanding, be compassionate, but be certain that safety cannot be compromised and you MUST make the call. Problem is you are never going to be sure as it is highly unlikely they will be staggering around the crew-room slurring their words and bumping into tables........

No-one said it would be easy.

PP

[piggybank]

On the subject of reporting a drunk pilot the article in the Airmech site of a maintenance man reporting a pilot being drunk, see Abu Dhabi Aviation.