NLP in cockpit com

[BuzzLightyears]

Howdy Partners

there's nothinig to create brand new in nowaday commercial airlines cockpit communication expecially below 10k ft but if anybody in this forum ever used or thinking about using the technique of Nuero-Linguistic-Programming in day-by-day pilots cockpit interactions (verbal, non verbal etc) I would be interested to understand his/her experience?

thanks

Buzz

[flipster]

Howdy Buzz,

NLP could be construed as being contained within 'non technical skills' (NOTECHS) and 'behavioural markers' - all part of Crew Resource Management and human factors. However, I doubt too many facilitators would be as bold to label it as NLP - I have tried but it often falls on deaf ears. Nonetheless, a number of people I know believe there is something in it (NLP that is) but it is a bit close to the p-word (psychology) for most pilots.

Pilots are, in the main, "controllers" of one sort or another (I know I am one) and they tend to shy away from things that cannot readily be explained by facts, figures, diagrams and tables. We also dislike 'surprises' - which is why we practice emergencies and have decision-making loops (DODAR/OODA/GRADE etc). The reason for this is because we are often rule-based, task-focused compartmentalisers and this explains, to a certain extent, why things like mental processes and psychological profiling are not embraced wholeheartedly by aviators.

That said, the seating arrangements in a cockpit and the locked door to stop any eye contact with the crew (ooer) are not conducive to the use of NLP.
However, I'd be keen to know whether someone does use the technique on the job.

All the best,

flipster

I would think that this thread might get more response if you moved it to the 'Safety/CRM/QA/Emergency Response Planning' page; that is where many CRM facilitators lurk. Good luck.

[PENKO]

The psychological aspects of flying are very interesting, unfortunately I am unfamiliar with NLP. Buzz, could you please elaborate? How would YOU use NLP? But please, in normal readable letters!!

[BuzzLightyears]

Penko: although it is not new, I'm just approaching to this new NLP way of communication and i found it pretty fashinating the way they are picturing informations in order to sound like you wolud be able to katch it! BUt Honestly I'm not really able to answer your question! Sorry partner, but you still got a friend in me!

Flipster: Thanks for your answer and yes i totally agree with you by saying pilots are super-focus precise machine highly specialized!?!?! :)(i'm one them, maybe a little less full of myself, but still trying to be as much precise as i can). And it's really difficult sometime to being able to swallow your pride and try to understand something new (expecially if it come from a psycological field where it is hard to find person with proper answer).


my general idea was really coming from a situation where the PM is doing more then one task and using different communication channel for different tasks... but I'll try on the other area (Safety/CRM....)

Thanks All

Buzz

[dbee]

Buzz

I may be totally off your wavelenth, but essentially you are correct with the idea of a 'sterile' cockpit below 10k.

As a really old hand - rapidly approaching 70 - I run MCC courses that give valid yardsticks about cockpit communications and we do NOT subscribe to non verbal instructions.

Please PM if you need forther info. My background is 16 years RAF and a similar period on Boeing 737s. dbee

[BuzzLightyears]

dbee

you are absolutely right! Non-verbal is not part of any trainig MCC CRM courses and as you can really understand nowaday is also quite difficult to communicate using only one channel (not only Italian use hands to say something!):) But on the other side we must admit that also a "wink and a smile" is non-verbal and the cockpit is full of this moment!

what i'm trying to get into is an idea that come up a couple of days ago after reading about this mambo-jumbo NLP... and i'm trying to understand if someone already though about it since since it's not the latest hot ticket!


Thanks

Buzz

[turbocharged]

Buzz,

NLP is just old rehashed concepts. Anyone remember Transactional Analysis? Fads come and go.

[jolly girl]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting tired of hearing comments like "just old rehashed concepts." If they are old ideas, why haven't I heard about them before? There doesn't seem to be any tribal knowledge being passed between the generations, and when us pups ask questions we get shot down... any ideas for improving this form of CRM? Other than my current strategy of giving up and playing in a different sandbox that is...

[alf5071h]

One of the problems in our industry – perhaps in all human activity – is that we like ‘new and shiny’ items, and that ‘management’ use these to generate or reinvigorate subject interest. This approach can be valuable, but if misused or overdone it can detract from the objective.

The tools of training – the generation of knowledge and understanding – can be described in psychological terms, even more so as new research provides more and varied views of human cognition. Similarly for the behaviours and activities in flight operations.
This does not necessarily mean that the any new scientific view is more or less suited to aviation training, or that that aviation should reject a new view out of hand.
However, for example, the history of CRM illustrates a drawback of misjudging the use a psychological approach (instructors and/or subject) even though the theories were applicable (“psychobabble”).
Some people saw CRM as an extension of Airmanship to crews / teams, which then expanded well beyond its original aim and now perhaps to the detriment of teaching / using Airmanship.

Instead of looking for a ‘brand new’ cockpit communication to meet the ‘sterile cockpit’ concept, we could look at what previously has been done successfully and /or what is the objective of the concept in current operations.
Crews have to communicate to achieve safe and efficient operations, yet there is a need to avoid distraction.

So what can NLP offer?
From Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming); the view that NLP is “a model of interpersonal communication chiefly concerned with the relationship between successful patterns of behaviour and the subjective experiences (esp. patterns of thought) underlying them" offers encouragement, but how do you teach ‘models’ (cf TEM).
However, "a system of alternative therapy …” and “an extraordinarily effective and rapid form of psychological therapy …” suggest trouble ahead, which may be confirmed by “ the absence of any firm empirical evidence supporting its sometimes extravagant claims…”
So what can NLP offer, … not much?

Crew communication and avoiding distraction have roots in airmanship – discipline. Other views of ‘crew’ problems below 10K in recent accidents point to the lack of ‘flying the aircraft’ – more airmanship issues – skill, proficiency, knowledge, and awareness.
So revisiting some of the old concepts – back to basics with airmanship - might be better than attempting to grasp something 'new and shiny', even if it has been around for some time.

[john_tullamarine]

I merged the two threads on this topic ... doesn't flow all that well but hopefully the gist is clear.

[wall-e]

"Aviate Navigate Communicate!"

that's what my old IP used to teach me!

Althought we must say that in todays glass-cockpit a good tailored communication will really help crews understanding each other expetially while they are saying silly sort message like ALT CAP, SPD, EPR/N1, LNAV, FL CHG set SPD...etc!

I remember one day I was flying as PM with a smart and pretty girl and we were about top level off and I tryed to make a super-sexy 1000ft call. The sound that come out of my mouth was more like a monkey ... and we start to laugh :)!



I do not know NLP but i think that the way we are building Emotion in our day-by-day scenario make the difference in our quality of life! Someone says "Emotion make Motion!"... and if TA NLP TTC ABC BCD or some other acronism can do so why not try! At least we wasted our time striving to improve our quality of life!

[turbocharged]

Dear JG

Perhaps we should explain to the viewers that we have spats off forum as well as on. I'm sorry if you are 'tired of hearing' some of my comments. If every time anyone mentioned a concept they had to summarize the key points, offer a critique and cross reference to allied concepts and paradigms ... well, conversation would just zip along! I think it fair to assume that if you don't know what the topic is about, then a quick google might get you off and running.

When I was a young pup someone told me that 'there is nothing new in training'. It's the only thing I remember from my initial course to be a training developer. But it has stood the test of time. Fads come and go but when it comes to interpersonal communication here are 2 golden rules:

Listen to what the person means to say
Think about what you want the person to understand

As for NLP, would you trust a 'product' that is fronted by a TV magician who claims that NLP will help you lose weight, stop smoking and have a successful life (you have to buy all 3 self-help guides to achieve that list of goals - the compendium volume presumably would generate less revenue).

And what is the difference between NLP and CBT? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Precious little other than who holds the franchise.

[HigherSights]

NLP is all very well except for the minor irritating fact that there is no evidence for its major claims. It is unscientific.

[jolly girl]

Yes Turbocharged, I agree, I am a disagreeable impertinent young whippersnapper. If only there were some demonstrated, validated, verifiable way of modifying and/or controlling my communication…
;-)

My frustration with your response stems from its apparent lack of academic rigor… You state you did consider the use of NLP in the cockpit, but do not reference any publications that might give insight to the method you used, the reasoning behind it, the results of your investigations and aspects of the protocol that might have affected the outcome. As my law professor was so good to tutor me, if it isn’t written down, it never happened. Nor did you choose to explore BuzzLightyear’s thoughts or perspective, rather you summarily dismissed him for having (supposedly) the same idea you once did.

I think it’s becoming increasingly clear (especially now that I have read Trostle) that culture and communication are the key to reducing accident/incident rates. Instead of one-upping or tearing each other down I think we really need to start collaborating on these ideas. Alas I have given up on pprune as a forum for where this could happen.
Jolly

[turbocharged]

:)

Notwithstanding 'Highersights' observation that NLP, like Transactional Analysis before it I should add, lacks any substantiated evidence to support it, I stand guilty as charged in that I failed to offer any legitimate defence against the value of NLP in CRM. But nor did I say anything about having considered trying using NLP. I just researched the concept, discussed with someone who paid to become a 'Master Practitioner', considered its basic concepts in the light of existing thinking about communication .. and chose to decline the offer.

You might want to go looking for crm-developers, a yahoo group. I've tried many times to start collaborative projects. For example, is 'threat and error management' a useful concept or just old wine in new bottles. Let's test the concept. How about measuring the return on the CRM investment. I'll let you guess how much interest was shown.

Communication is a crucial aspect of safe teamwork. Culture is a messy concept but it, too, is worth exploring. Pprune is maybe not the place to explore these concepts.

But rather than give up just because you seem to want to see the negative in any exchange, make a proposal. Take positive action. You never know, it might actually achieve something.

[turbocharged]

"Yes Turbocharged, I agree, I am a disagreeable impertinent young whippersnapper"


Don't beat yourself up. I'm sure it's not that bad.

:)

[BuzzLightyears]

Turbo you are right!
If someone will try to demonstrate who we are, where we are from and where we are heading to based out solely on his specific knowledge, well we solve the eternal 3 big human being questions! ... and i don't think this is the aim of any forum!


Probably instead of NLP in Cockpit comm the title of this threat should be NLP in PPrune forum!:)

I repeat I don't know anything about NLP, but reading more staff about it i get more fascinated and my mind was thinking about the way we generalize/cancell/etc the reality around us!

... and i was thinking about how film directors are capable of creating emotion with stimulating only the 2 senses... and I'm not talking about the "Bravura" of the actors, I'm thinking about CG movie where everything is created!

anybody thought about the next level of cockpit CRM on how to "organize" emotions in the cockpit?

[BuzzLightyears]

JG

I'm with you! Turbo had an aggresive way of generalize the subject with a clear final result of creating a rainbow of emotins that were problably generating frustration in the readers!

Thanks for your help

[turbocharged]

Buzz,

I'll happily take the hit for being flippant in response to your question about NLP and fully accept that my position is dismissive of the whole concept. However, aggression is in the eye of the beholder.

Effective teamwork requires self-awareness. I need to be able to stop and reflect on the success or otherwise of an intended interaction. The problem we have at the moment is that CRM training is generic and one size fits all. It wasn't very long ago that regulatory guidance actually stated that 'crm is not about changing personalities'. Well, unfortunately, it is. This means that CRM training should force individuals to confront the effectiveness of their team performance and, if found wanting, they should be helped to change.

We all know of overbearing captains (as an example). We complain about them and they have even been implicated in accidents. Yet why don't we have 'remedial human being' classes for these people? If I fail a check ride I get additional sim training. If I fail to work effectively with colleagues ... nothing.

You can use any acronym-based training quick fix you want but unless we have the time and resources to work at the level of the individual then it is unlikely to have any more effect than what we currently offer.

[Firestorm]

An old girlfriend of mine was an instructor of NLP, and I really didn't buy into it very much. It is all a bit too new agey hippy for me. That said, the broad principal of it seems sensible enough in that you by a careful choice of words you can influence the emphasis of certain points. Also by knowing the person that you are communicating with you can word your points in a way that appeals to their character.

The choice of words bit is interesting, and is useful. For example it is suggested that if you give someone an instruction or a reminder about something you should say "remember to do such and such" rather than "don't forget to do...." (unless of course you want them to forget to do whatever).

The second bit is that people learn and listen in one of (or a combination of) 3 ways: auditory, visual or kinesthetic (emotionally), so if you can work out which one of those is most pertinent to the person you are talking to you can tailor your phraseology to them, particularly if you are trying to win their support on a particular point, or trying to get them to do something that they may be a bit reluctant to agree to. For instance if the person you are talking to is visual you would make visual references such as "so you can see that when we do this we will be here in relation to..." or "people will see this outcome" where as if they are kinesthetic you would say something like "if we do this it will make me feel safe" and if they are auditory you might say "when we have done this you will hear....".

That as I understand it is NLP in a nut shell. It is widely used by salesmen and women to help them achieve a sale (perhaps that is the Dark Side of a Jedi type skill), but I feel it is not so much a science as a way of trying to turn something that most of us do somewhat instinctively into a commercial science (courses and books abound on the subject), although a little understanding of some of our instincts can maybe help us communicate more effectively. I wonder...

[wall-e]

Persuasion in the cockpit? Is that what NLP is all about? If it's like that I don't think this would really help the CRM!

[BuzzLightyears]

Turbo

Touché!

[wall-e]

"... and i was thinking about how film directors are capable of creating emotion with stimulating only the 2 senses... and I'm not talking about the "Bravura" of the actors, I'm thinking about CG movie where everything is created!"

Yes and if we consider that in a movie theather on a first release there are more than 100s of people almost reacting at the same time at one stimulation!

... we understand there's nothing to create out of the blue expecially when we are talking about CRM, but it would be possible that the next step of CRM would be oriented on creating emotion in the cockpit for every phases of flight in order to boost concentrations, our capability to receive stimuli...etc!

... that doesn't mean that when i grow-up i want to be a film director ... still wanna be a pilot!:ok:

[Roger Sofarover]

It's a very good question concerning NLP. Firestorm has given a pretty good account of it in a basic way. For those of you searching foe scientific or empirical evidence that NLP (or indeed Transactional Analysis which was not the predecessor to NLP) works, then just like any science of the mind, you wont find any. Just like any personality tools like Myers Briggs, SDI etc all we have to go on is that the theory seems to be pretty close to the real results we achieve.

We now use NLP to an extent and have done for about a year now. In the right hands it is very powerful stuff, but you will never get/want everyone in the cockpit doing it, and if you did maybe the results could be quite unfavourable. One problem with NLP techniques is that you CAN influence the outcome of a decision inorder that it meets your own idea. Now think about the consequences of that for a moment if you are wrong.

In general it is a practise that could stifle free thought and limit effective problem solving within a team. Where it is very useful is reinforcing the language used when you are trying to express certain safety concerns you may have, ie you are trying to be assertive in a situation where you think it is very important that the Captain knows your stance on the matter. Like many new skills we can pick up from CRM and Human Factors, it is a life skill that has many applications in day to day living, moreso than in the cockpit.

NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it.

Flipster

you made me laugh a lot.
However, I doubt too many facilitators would be as bold to label it as NLP - I have tried but it often falls on deaf ears.

:} Thats an NLP joke right? (bye the way mate expect a pm we need to talk and my phone numbers changed and I've lost yours:ok: )

Well done Buzz, it is not often that topics on this forum get in to their second page. Keep thinking:ok:

[turbocharged]

Roger,

I don't think anyone suggested that TA was a predecessor to NLP although I did ask if anyone remembered TA, another fad that seems to have sunk without a trace. And given that NLP dates back to the 1970s it can hardly be called 'brand new', surely?

However, I digress.

Can you just clarify a couple of items. You say you have been using NLP for about a year but that you will never (get) want everyone using it and that the results might be unfavourable if you did. This seems a bit contradictory. Can you clarify?

You give an example of NLP in association with assertiveness. What was wrong with the initial approach to assertiveness that it should need an NLP graft? Assertiveness is another 'fad' but is actually one that can be used to develop insight and bring about behavioural change.

Thanks

[Roger Sofarover]

Turbocharged

Thanks for your comments. I am a little short of time right now so I will get back to you when I can with a more extensive answer if needed.

Firstly with TA, you are right, its use does seem to have diminished with some organisations. I actually like it and it has great parallels when you use it in discussions concerning cockpit and team gradients.

As regards NLP, I did not mean to be contradictory. Somebody who is proficient in the use of NLP can heavily influence the opinion and action of others. I spent 6 days with Richard Bandler the co-founder of NLP on one of his advanced programs and it was both excellent and scary at the same time. The undoubted ability to influence the decision making processes of others has both good and bad points.

The reason I said you will never 'get' all people to use it in the cockpit, is that because it is seen as being a particularly 'soft skill', there are those amongst us who fly that think it is a pile of horse do dah, its all psychobabble and there is nothing in it. Those types will never even try to apply the concepts of NLP either in the cockpit or in life in general, as a simple result of not believing it has any credibility. The more I have looked at its use in aviation, the more I consider that it would be very difficult to have two NLP practioners actively using the concepts of NLP on each other in the cockpit on a routine basis (It could be argued that the situation would not arise as a great part of NLP is actually on a self help basis and does not necessarily have to be applied to others.) Hence my comment that you may not 'want' everyone to be well versed in its principles.

You give an example of NLP in association with assertiveness. What was wrong with the initial approach to assertiveness that it should need an NLP graft? Assertiveness is another 'fad' but is actually one that can be used to develop insight and bring about behavioural change.
I would not agree that assertiveness is another fad but would agree with the last part of the sentence. What you rightly say are also outcomes of effective use of NLP. NLP is really just another tool to add to the skill set required to achieve your aims. It is a very powerful tool however, and with the example of assertiveness, the language you use (as per the concepts of NLP) can drastically improve your chance of getting your message across to another individual. NLP has a place in the cockpit, but the more I learn, the more I feel its usefulness has limits.

gotta go.

bye the way, ref that 'TV magician' do you mean PM?, everyone has to make a buck, and he makes loads out of it, but away from the TV glitz, he is a very serious and talented guy.

[BuzzLightyears]

Thanks Roger
Try to learn how to fall with style!
Jokes apart I was just reading some stuff on how to prepare for an airline interview and this magic 3 letters NLP come out. Since I really didn’t know anything about it but truly willing to get as much information as possible for my interview, I tried to understand the meaning of them (you’ll never know maybe HR can ask questions on that!).
And then happened that I kept reading those stuff and while doing that I was projecting those information on a day-by-day cockpit scenario, initially just on the non-verbal aspect of the cockpit comm.. How many times pilots use hands to underline verbal messages? For example the so common PM’s 1000ft call prior level off it’s often accompanied by the use of one finger (hopefully not the middle one!) to get PF’s attention on the remaining 1000ft to go!
Someone says flying it’s a mix of fascinating emotions beginning from the romantic idea of gravity winning, cloud chasing and continuing with the much more realistic needs of how bigger is my wallet at the end of the month! That said, probably not only the non-verbal comm. can influence the cockpit interaction but also kinesthetic/feelings stimulation can create a cockpit atmosphere where pilots are really willing to belong! How many times you felt uncomfortable in the cockpit? (seem a common question in an interview!)
And since NLP is not brand new stuff and I’m not a brand new pilot either but still relatively young and green I thought someone already had come out with the same representation as mine.
Reading the post it appears everybody knows what it is but since it’s not science there’s a silent fear to put it in the cockpit! Probably it’s true, these are already a lot of information in CRM courses that introducing not science technique will definitely increase the cost/effectiveness to a level not needed especially in this particular economic moment.
Is there a knack to making an award-winning best cockpit atmosphere airline contest? Don’t know, if not in the front maybe in the back of a cockpit cause this knack, so far it’s pretty entertaining, at least enough to fill 2 PPrune pages! And by the way, people pay money to see a film that’s entertaining, also during economic crises.
If it never being done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done

[wall-e]

The interaction between technology and the study of the human behavior/reaction transform the old needle instruments in the new glass cockpit HUD/HOTAS, toys that pilots love! Powerful graphics computers create realistic images in our displays and nice voices are reminding us action (i.e. to lower the gear) in order to net-share SA. And what about using the information to create sequence of emotions followed by sequence of actions! True is feelings are different for each one of us and putting all these together can be an absurd number, but mathematicians know how to handle that, because if you throw some big numbers at something and then you have to be able to handle them then it makes you think about the problem in different ways.

[HigherSights]

Roger Sofraover

"For those of you searching foe scientific or empirical evidence that NLP (or indeed Transactional Analysis which was not the predecessor to NLP) works, then just like any science of the mind, you wont find any. Just like any personality tools like Myers Briggs, SDI etc all we have to go on is that the theory seems to be pretty close to the real results we achieve."

First of all, NLP is not a science of the mind. Like 'Dianetics', it is a pseudoscience. Psychology is a science and is all about empirical evidence. The 'real results' NLP achieves (the same claim is made of homeopathy) should be testable scientifically. They should be reliable and valid.

The claims made by NLP about representations systems are quite extraordinary. Not only are they antitheoretical, they have been largely falsified. Bandler and Grinder's ideas about eye movements and representativonal systems have been thoroughly discredited by research and have no scientific support.

"NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it."

Actually NLP is a bit of a rehash - it was based on observation of three psychotherapists. It is not brand new, having been born in the 1970s. And psychiatrists probably don't even think about it. They work more at the level of drug treatments for (usually) serious conditions. If psychologists dislike it, then it is because it is unscientific.

I despair when aviation safety reduced to the level of a pseudoscience. What we are really talking about is effective communication - that's all! No buzzwords required.

[wall-e]

Buzz

did you understand! No more words!:)

[wall-e]

Buzz sorry i was just joking!

I think it's a really interesting thread and the specific knowledge shown so far seems to be pretty high too!

... and keeping to an emotional level and projected in a long-haul cockpit (HKG-LHR) just 40' or 50' prior landing!
If it is possible, wouldn't it be useful to teach the crews how to recall previous positive emotions in order to generate a sort of "Peak State" (or Action Potential) capable of boosting their performance just before landing? (... and I'm not referring to Italian expressos or energy drink!:O)

[flipster]

Roger,

I'm still waiting for yr PM - as it happens, I agree with most you have said. It would certainly be interesting to have 2 good NLP practioners in the cockpit togther! But I wouldn't count as such a person - I am only an experimenter ... and I was cr@p!

flipster

[BuzzLightyears]

Wall-e

sorry if i didn't promptly reply to your post but I'm trying to figure out what do I have to do when i grow up!:eek:

... and I think there are a lot of more qualified people that should continue this thread if they consider it worthy!

that all folks!

[bumba]

... hey folks look what I have found!

NLP.COM (http://www.nlp.com/)

what do you think about it?

[169west]

Howdy there

Since the topic is NLP ... I think this is the appropriate spot where to ask about Tony Robbins. What do you think about his performance?

[Centaurus]

Instead of looking for a ‘brand new’ cockpit communication to meet the ‘sterile cockpit’ concept, we could look at what previously has been done successfully

The so called sterile cockpit below 10,000 ft was brought in to stop non-operational talking distracting flight crews in the busy zone below 10,000 ft.
Of course, this concept would never have got off the ground had crews exercised proper flight deck discipline.

Nature abhors a vacuum (quiet cockpit) and so crews are now told to verbalise what they see on the instrument panel, MCP and FMA visual displays. The theory of the sterile cockpit is now replaced by fly-by-mouth.