FAA licence "rendered valid".....

[Keygrip]

Question for the owners/operators who actually rent out the aircraft - rather than the pilots who hire them....but..

Under the ICAO agreement, all member states must accept PPL privileges from 'foreign' licences. The FAA wish you to actually HOLD an FAA licence - so they just give you one, under FAR 61.75.....but, you can only have one of those "licence issued on the bais of..." if you do not already hold a full FAA licence in some other form.

The UK authorities (spit) automatically "Render valid" a foreign licence under Article 28 of the Air Navigation Order - but say someone has a full UK JAA CPL valid on MEP aircraft only - can they use the ICAO privileges of their foreign licence to rent an SEP (or vice-versa)?

I *have* seen the FAA rule in print - never seen the JAA question, so I doubt there is a legal precedence.

That's why I think the question is for owners/operators - would you rent your SEP to a JAA CPL/ME and allow them to use ICAO privileges to fly it?

[IO540]

Under the ICAO agreement, all member states must accept PPL privileges from 'foreign' licences.

which has been ignored by every country I know of except the UK :) The best you get is the U.S. piggyback license regime where you turn up in person somewhere and they give you one. Around Europe, validation is available but the conditions vary; one seemingly popular version is that it is vailable only to non EU residents (France AIUI).

would you rent your SEP to a JAA CPL/ME and allow them to use ICAO privileges to fly it?

I used to rent out my TB20 so let me answer on that basis...

YES. UK ANO Article 26 automatically validates ICAO licenses for a G-reg plane, for VFR flight worldwide.

For me, a far bigger factor was whether the renter was qualified on type and/or had the right attitude to learn the procedures. But that is another story.

[bookworm]

Under the ICAO agreement, all member states must accept PPL privileges from 'foreign' licences.

Actually, no. There's a recommendation that any ICAO licence is accepted for private flights. But there's no obligation to permit foreign licence holders to fly aircraft of the home nationality in home airspace.

[Whopity]

but say someone has a full UK JAA CPL valid on MEP aircraft only - can they use the ICAO privileges of their foreign licence to rent an SEP (or vice-versa)?

NO, they can only exercise a privilege that they currently hold. In the UK Article 26 renders valid a foreign ICAO licence, but only to do what that licence entitles the holder to do in their own State.

[Keygrip]

So if you have both MEP and SEP on FAA licence - but only MEP on JAA, you cannot use the FAA "rendered valid" to fly the FAA SEP privileg?

But if you do not have a JAA licence - you can fly both on the FAA?

Duh!

I'll believe *your* answer.

What is the deal with the ICAO? "Must" or "recommended"?

[BelArgUSA]

There is no such thing as an ICAO "Rule"...
The "Annexes " of ICAO are agreements or recommendations.
xxx
No "if"... no "but"... that is all there is to it.
:ok:
Happy contrails

[Whopity]

But if you do not have a JAA licence - you can fly both on the FAA? Then the FAA licence is not "Restricted" and you can do what ever the FAA one permits, the JAA one is irrelevant.
If the FAA Certificate is "Restricted" it is only as good as the privileges on the one it refers to, so if that is not valid then neither are valid.

You can only render valid in one State what is valid in another!

[Keygrip]

You've lost me again. Where did the comment "restricted" come from?

It's a fairly simple question, I think, that is causing some very confusing answers;

Pilot holds a full, unrestricted (?), FAA on both SEP and MEP. Tests passed.

Holds a JAA MEP only - and lives in JAA land.

Can pilot use the ICAO "recommendation" to fly SEP using the FAA licence in UK whilst being the holder of a JAA licence.

Going the other way, the answer is "No" - as the FAA will not "render valid" nor issue a 61.75 licence to anyone who already holds a full FAA licence of any kind.

Is the same deal applied when coming into JAA land?

[S-Works]

If the pilot holds a full FAA certificate which has SEP on it and it is current then he can fly a G reg. The JAA licence is of no relevance at all.

[dublinpilot]

It's a fairly simple question, I think, that is causing some very confusing answers;


I think the reason for that is because of the way you asked the question.

You didn't state the pilot in question had an FAA certificate, nor what privlidges were on the certificate. It read like you were considering the JAA MEP licence as the "foreign licence" under ICAO, and trying to get some sort of implied privlidges.

Given that you've now clarified that, you should get pretty consistant answers, inline with what Bose just said. But be aware that that is correct for the UK, but not necessarily correct for other JAR countries. It's a UK rules, rather than a JAR one.

dp

[bookworm]

Art 26(4)(a) ..., a licence granted either under the law of a
Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence
or a licence granted under the law of a relevant overseas territory, purporting in
either case to authorise the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an
aircraft, not being a licence purporting to authorise him to act as a student pilot
only, shall, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a
licence rendered valid under this Order but does not entitle the holder:
(i) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose
of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he
receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in
controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

[Keygrip]

Familiar with Art 26, thanks, bookworm (despite my typo in the original).

So we seem to be se settling on the interpretation that you CAN use the foreign licence for ICAO privileges for a rating you do not hold on your own JAA licence.

I know the FAA specifically prohibit this with their version of the "rendered valid".....if you have (say) a PPL SEP FAA full licence and a JAA with SEP and MEP, you cannot get a 61.75 "rendered valid" approval to fly MEP - though you CAN have the instrument rating privileges extended to a US licence.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were just one rule making body....call it something like International Civil Aviation Organisation.

Thanks for the replies.

[bookworm]

Familiar with Art 26, thanks, bookworm (despite my typo in the original).

It was the limitation (private flight only, no IFR in controlled airspace) that I thought was worth quoting in full .

[Keygrip]

:ok:Okies, thanks.

[englishal]

I know the FAA specifically prohibit this with their version of the "rendered valid".....if you have (say) a PPL SEP FAA full licence and a JAA with SEP and MEP, you cannot get a 61.75 "rendered valid" approval to fly MEP - though you CAN have the instrument rating privileges extended to a US licence.
Well actually you can. Say you hold an FAA CPL ME (standalone) and you have a JAA PPL with SE. Although you cannot hold two FAA certificates, you can actually have have the SE added as an endorsement on the FAA certificate as per FAR 61.75 process or whatevertheheck it is:

Commercial Pilot Multi Engine Land
Single Engine Private Privileges based on and only when acompanied by foreign licence number 1234567
yada yada yada.

My situation is reversed, I hold CPL ME SE IR in FAALand, yet in JAALand I am a PPL SEP. Still I can fly ME aircraft in JARLand because the CAA render it valid without formality. I believe I could also fly SET/ MET in JARLand should I wish to....

[S-Works]

I believe I could also fly SET/ MET in JARLand should I wish to....

No you can't.

[Keygrip]

Why not? It's exactly the same question that I originally asked - but different classes.

What's the difference?

[Whopity]

So we seem to be se settling on the interpretation that you CAN use the foreign licence for ICAO privileges for a rating you do not hold on your own JAA licence.To exercise any privilege under the ICAO recommendation, somewhere, you must have a valid ICAO licence containing that privilege. The recommendation only allows one State to recognise a privilege granted by another. That licence must also be acceptable to the State in which you wish to use it.

FAA "rendered valid" to fly the FAA SEP privilege?You did not make it clear if you were talking about a FAA Cetificate rendered valid by virtue of Art 26 or a FAA "Restricted" Certificate rendered valid on the basis of a foreign (JAA) licence!

[S-Works]

Why not? It's exactly the same question that I originally asked - but different classes.

What's the difference?

I would love to be proved wrong for a number of reasons, in Europe Turbine aircraft require a type rating regardless of weight and this does not carry over under automatic privileges as I understand it.

I have a number of type ratings on my JAA licence that would not require type ratings on my FAA licence as they are under 12,500lbs.

It is possible to get approval from certain states providing satisfactory training can be proven. But it is a state by state basis and on named types, not a blanket covering.

[bookworm]

I would love to be proved wrong for a number of reasons, in Europe Turbine aircraft require a type rating regardless of weight and this does not carry over under automatic privileges as I understand it.

Why not? Article 26 has no limitation on aircraft class or type. If your FAA licence meets ICAO standards to permit flight in an SET or MET, Art 26 renders that licence valid for private flights. Of course, without IFR in controlled airspace it's as much practical use as a chocolate teapot...

[S-Works]

Why not?

Indeed, was my view but not what I was told by our beloved CAA. Who while very hazy on the subject seemed to believe that as they were type rated aircraft they would need individual permission and they were not sure how that would be granted without proof of a type rating course.

I am not arguing for or against. In fact if you can PROVE that it can be done I will buy you a beer.

[bookworm]

In fact if you can PROVE that it can be done I will buy you a beer.

What sort of proof would earn me the ale? If I tell you of someone who has flown a G-reg SET on an FAA type rating (and I can't), that act could still be illegal. I certainly can't promise that everyone you could call up in the CAA will say "yes, that's legal", but you can probably find one or two who would tell you that it's illegal for the sun to rise tomorrow. ;) All I can do is point at what is written as law -- I'm a bookworm, after all. :)

[S-Works]

Just something that says it can be done and an example of where it has been done!

[englishal]

I used to have a letter from the CAA confirming that ALL privileges and ratings on the foreign licence, bar the IR ICAS, may be exercised on a G reg aircraft for private purposes. As FAA is SE or ME - as opposed to SEP or MEP then I take that to mean this is also included....

This used to beg the question that when flying around in G reg King Airs as a non UK type rated "assistant" when flying a non-PT leg (because the captain would often let us fly the full leg - often VFR OCAS to position the aircraft or RTB) does this mean the flight could be logged or not? Under the FARs, I'd be perfectly leagal to log PIC had it had an N on the back.....Not that I bothered, I kept an unofficial log because apparently the time COULD count towards a UK Type Rating (I believe there is a minimum time requirement for the TR?)....and certainly the companies own requirements.

Unfortunately I don't qualify for a beer as I've gone and lost the letter ;)

[Whopity]

You don't need to prove that it can be done. If the CAA wish to stop you, without any suitable legislation to say that you can't do it then they would not have a leg to stand on in court. They can of course issue you with a written notice stating that you cannot exercise the privileges of a particular class or type on the basis of Article 26, but they must issue it in writing to prevent you from exercising that privilege.

They have done this where it has been discovered that persons operating on a FAA licence under Article 26 have actually failed a UK medical. But to do so they must have a reason and you can always appeal.

So without a written notice to the contrary, you can exercise the PPL privileges granted in Art 26 on any aeroplane for which you hold a valid ICAO licence.