Arrow Air DC-10 loses part of engine on t/o Manaus

[aerotransport.org]

G1 > Brasil - NOTÍCIAS - Parte da turbina de avião cai e danifica casas em Manaus (http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,,MUL1059262-5598,00-PARTE+DA+TURBINA+DE+AVIAO+CAI+E+DANIFICA+CASAS+EM+MANAUS.htm l)

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=4171239c&opt=0)

continues to Bogota on 2 engines :\

[GrandPrix]

Say it ain't so. Arrow air having mechanical irregularities.:eek: Who would have thunk it?:rolleyes:

[Charles.]

Easy to understand why they didn't want to be stuck in Manaus with an engine to replace...

Is that such a big fault not to resume the flight on two engines, particularly on a freighter ?

[Machaca]

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow301.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow338.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow212.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow140.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow056.jpg

[JW411]

Well, British Airways can manage LAX to Manchester with an engine shut down, so what's the problem?

[golfyankeesierra]

The problem is that Bogota is at elevation of about 8500' and that is actually the bottom of the valley.
It's in the middle of the Andes while Manaus is probably as flat as a pancake; don't they have cold beer there?

[earlyNFF]

maybe it was a round trip, suitcase in BOG;)

[MarkerInbound]

Since the crew was informed that parts hit the ground and Brazil has been know to jail crew involved in accidents, they may have thought getting out of the country was the best thing to.

[Paradise Lost]

When they say "it lost part of an engine", which bit was actually left on the aircraft?

[gas path]

Looking at the blade hanging on that ladies wall I'd hazard a guess at a turbine disc letting go...not unusual if it's a GE CF6:\:8.

[golfyankeesierra]

BTW looking at the foggy windshield of the car in Machaca's photo's, I wonder what that guy was doing when it was hit by the engine:}:}:}

[ReverseFlight]

I appreciate an aircraft can fly on just 2 engines but what about the change in C of G with such a large piece missing ?

It must have been trimming at the limit.

[hellsbrink]

GYS

No idea what he was doing BEFORE the engine came down (good point, Paradise Lost, which part is left on the aircraft) but I bet ya I can guess what he did when the engine landed beside him.

[lomapaseo]

Looking at the blade hanging on that ladies wall I'd hazard a guess at a turbine disc letting go...not unusual if it's a GE CF6.

Turbine disk failures have been very rare even in that machine

Turbine blade failures not nearly as rare in most machines.

The CF6 has had a number of events that look just like this (about 1 every two years)

[ankh]

G1 - O Portal de Notícias da Globo - GALERIA DE FOTOS - Veja fotos de parte da turbina que caiu em Manaus (http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,GF69402-5598,00.html)

#4 in the set of 6 pictures isn't copied above

Look at the chunk out of the roof and wall of the house, you can see the engine was still moving sideways when it hit the ground.

[muduckace]

Nice pictures, sort of looks like a shuttle "pod". Been through Manaus and Bogota many times. I want to say rwy 33L/R faces mountains and is usually landing / take off direction. Heavy engine out would suck, I don't see why they can't get a ferry permit back to KMIA, should not be a problem empty.

Never seen a CF-6 shear off a turbine section/tailcone. Must have been last few stages. They are known for spitting blades "coreing out".

[Diver-BR]

According to an official statement, the tower contacted the crew after hearing a loud bang during the take-off. The crew denied any anormality. After being informed that parts of the engine from the plane were found, ACC contacted the crew once more. Only then they informed that they had shut down one engine.

:: FAB - Força Aérea Brasileira :: (http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=2569)

[Willoz269]

If that is what the crew did, you don't get surprised at how some American airlines and their operators are considered in certain parts of the world...this is truly appalling!

[Machaca]

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow461.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow444.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/CF-6-50z.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow477.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Arrow485.jpg

[SouthpawSLF]

Considering the distance, the high altitude landing at Bogota, and the alt landing spots (nil) in between, I would think it takes quite a pair to make the decision to continue after losing one out of Manaus...

[BelArgUSA]

Manaus is a fine place to bring an airplane back with an engine out.
And enjoy cold Brahma Lagers at the Tropical Resort Hotel in the discotheque.
Great food, congenial people. Visit the famous "Opera"...
One of the best places to visit in Brasil.
xxx
Sorry - I dont know if they have McDonald's there for US crews.
But with an engine out, Manaus is a good deal, rather than Bogota.
You can even dump fuel anywhere for landing, piranha fishes dont mind...
And I checked with the crocodiles' union, it's ok for them too.
xxx
:}
Happy contrails

[B-HKD]

Whats the fuss about?

The guys had a big set of balls :E

Leo

[FabFlyer]

The following quote comes from a BBC report.


A representative for Arrow Cargo in Manuas, Rai Marinho, told reporters the plane, carrying three crew members and an engineer, had had engine problems shortly after takeoff.
It was able to continue its journey but was later diverted to Medellin in Colombia because of bad weather, the Associated Press quoted the Colombian air force as saying.


BBC NEWS | Americas | US aircraft parts fall on Brazil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7967098.stm)

So perhaps they didn't go to Bogota after all. Still amazes me that they elected to continue. :eek:

[alexmcfire]

The average age of the Arrow Air´s DC-10s are 31,4 years,
Fleet age Arrow Air - Airfleets (http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Arrow%20Air.htm)
So is this age related?

[denkraai]

Oh yeah, these guys have balls allright.
Tower reporting bangs, vibrations (I imagine) and abnormal engine indications,
checklists calling for "land at nearest suitable airport", flight characteristics all shot to hell.
Next time it won't just be an engine you see falling from the air.
Oh yeah, these guys have balls allright. :}

[gas path]

The average age of the Arrow Air´s DC-10s are 31,4 years,
Fleet age Arrow Air - Airfleets (http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Arrow%20Air.htm)
So is this age related?
Absolutely not!

[bereboot]

Engine fail would be ok maybe , depending weight etc. but having structural damage ! ( if able to determine ) would make me turn around asap !:=

[Diver-BR]

The flight was registered as a non-revenue / no-cargo, but they were loaded alright. So it seems returning to Manaus would raise some inconvenient questions. :hmm:

[Old Fella]

Diver-BR Fairly 'loaded' accusation to make, even if you are in the 'know'. As for the decision to continue, if the aircraft handling was not impaired and the crew felt that continuing was the safe and the best commercial step to take, they have every right to do so. All the throwing of crap at them by those who were not there to make any assessment is premature and unfair. If as the company claimed the aircraft was a non-revenue/non cargo flight then the aircraft would be more than capable of continuing on two engines.

[Diver-BR]

It's not my accusation, it's from a statement of the regional accident prevention and investigation service (SERIPA), the air force branch responsible for investigating this incident, and confirmed by the local manager of the company, with told the press that she was unable at the moment to inform the nature or weight of the cargo (but didn't denied that it was a revenue flight).

I take back my comment and will not judge the decision of continuing the flight, I'm in no way qualified to do that. But, based on information available at the brazilian air force site and several newspapers that:

1. The crew, contacted by the tower regarding a loud bang, informed them that everything was normal with the AC, and only informed about a problem with one of the engines after being contacted a second time and told that pieces of the engine were found on the ground.
2. They weren't authorized to transport revenue cargo in that flight, but they did it anyway, as confirmed by the company.

I am questioning is the professionalism of that operation - crew, company, and of course local authorities which most probably knew about the nature of the flight. I'll be the first to revise my opinion and apologise if new facts arise that may explain such curious event.

Regards.

<edited, removed the reference to engine shutdown, it is not known when they shut it down, before or after the first contact>

[Intruder]

From the 2nd pic in post 19, it looks like it may be a shaft failure, similar to the 747 out of Guyaquil a few years back, rather than a turbine disk failure. There's a known failure mode in the CF6-50 series that was the cause of that one.

[RB Thruster]

Looks like the most rearward LP turbine disc has come away and cut 360 degrees through the exhaust case, cutting the engine in 2, with the LPT bearing housing and jet pipe falling away. I'm not that familiar with the CF-6, but does the rear engine mount fit to the exhaust case?

If so the remains of the engine could have been hanging on the forward mount only!

I'd love to see some pictures of the remains of the engine on wing! Nasty failure, and glad to see that the aircraft landed OK.

RBT

[belfrybat]

Tower reporting bangs, vibrations (I imagine) and abnormal engine indications,
checklists calling for "land at nearest suitable airport", flight characteristics all shot to hell.

Maybe they failed to notice it was the major part of the engine dropping off, and decided to go their merry way on what they had left.

Anyway, hitting 11 houses, there must have quite a bit of debris scattering around.

[CortaVento]

Manaus/Bogotá is a two and a half hour flight and part of it is over (very)high ground requiring contingency procedures for loss of pressurizaton/engine-out conditions. Besides the mountains there are always many thunderstorms making it even more complicate to be leveled at FL250-280 (what's the 1 engine out altitude capability?) Let's assume that such situation occurs during a take-off from an american field. Continuing ahead would probably be considered a violation and the pilots would have to face FAA/NTSB enforcement action. It appears that sometimes there are pilots that underestimate flying in this part of the world...:(

[misd-agin]

denkraai - you said the checklist calls for landing at the nearest suitable. Is that your opinion, or do you have a copy of the Arrows DC-10 ops specs?

Engine failure on a 3 or 4 engine a/c can leave the decision to divert up to the crew. If often depends upon the ops specs....and the Captain's emergency authority, but you guys know that.

[barit1]

I'm not that familiar with the CF-6, but does the rear engine mount fit to the exhaust case?

Some CF6 models do, some do not. I think this was a CF6-50, which has its aft mounts FW of the LPT rotor assembly.

[captjns]

Quick!!! call Joe and his little dog Carlos. Arrow wants them back!:}:yuk:

[condorox]

Pboto of plane after landing in Medellín can be seen here:
26/03: Motor del DC-10 cayo sobre MANAUS (http://www.aeropuertosarg.com.ar/losforos/index.php?topic=15740.20)

[Old Fella]

In earlier posts, which seem to have been either edited or removed, just when the engine was shutdown was questioned. By the look of the photographs I have seen I am sure the engine would have been shutdown immediately after the failure. It should have been obvious that a major failure had occurred and, given that the crew made the decision to continue and landed safely at Medellin, how can anyone reasonably question their actions when the engine failure occurred?

[alexmcfire]

So is this the last complete engine failure of the central engine after Sioux City?
How many upgrades has been done to avoid the hydraulic pipes to be cut?
N526MD is 30 years old, first flight 31/1-1979.

[alexmcfire]

Gas path, explain why a 30year old plane can´t have age issues?

[lomapaseo]

explain why a 30year old plane can´t have age issues?

could it be because the engine is what failed and the engine and the plane have only been together for a few months.

OTOH, give us a hint of what you mean by an age issue:confused:

The design itself has been around for a long enough time to have numerous Service Bulletins and maintenance updates applied to it. If the engine carcass (original data plate) is old I bet the parts are not.

To me the issue is the last maintenance and what Service Bulletins were complied at that time.

[Old Fella]

Alexmcfire. This is probably not the only No 2 Engine failure since Sioux City, nor is it the same type of failure. The Sioux City aircraft had suffered a FAN disc failure, a completely different and more catastrophic failure than that which befell the Arrow aircraft. Whether the age of the engine has any part in the failure is yet to be determined, but can reasonably be guessed is that a material failure occurred, probably due to a stress fracture or metal fatigue. At least give the crew the benefit of their demonstrated ability to assess the flying characteristics of the aircraft and the integrity of the hydraulic systems. They seemed to do alright to me.

[act700]

"It's not my accusation, it's from a statement of the regional accident prevention and investigation service (SERIPA), the air force branch responsible for investigating this incident"



Case solved!

[angelorange]

Flight's report here:

PICTURE: Arrow Cargo DC-10 sheds large engine parts over Manaus (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/03/27/324453/picture-arrow-cargo-dc-10-sheds-large-engine-parts-over-manaus.html)

[fleigle]

Given the Brazilian tendency to jail or hold crew by seizing passports after something goes wrong I could see why the crew would NOT want to land back there.

f

[Jofm5]

Picture of the damaged aricraft at The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=4171239c&opt=0)

[alexmcfire]

OF, can you give us some examples inbetween Sioux City and Manuas where
parts have fallen from the middle engine during flight?
Thanks in advance.

[free at last]

If maintained DC10 will be around a lot longer than most of US. Great airplane from one who has flown, it. :):)

[Old Fella]

alexmcfire I do not know how many failures of the the Number 2 engine have occurred with the DC10 between the Sioux City and Manuas events, nor does it matter. By the way, engine failure does not necessarily always mean disintegration. Engine failure can take many forms from catastrophic to relatively minor component failure leading to engine shutdown. In any event, all failures are assessed individually by the operating crew who have the responsibility to determine the subsequent actions. My point is that it is easy to throw crap at the decision made by a crew. It is equally as useless to prejudge them when you are thousands of miles from the event. As I said before, this crew handled the failure in a manner which led to the safe recovery of the aircraft. They should be given credit for that. I have been part of the crew on any number of flights where we continued on less than all engines because that was considered the prudent thing to do. Fortunately, I never had to handle such a failure as happened with either the Sioux City aircraft or the Arrow Air aircraft. I have, however, had contained turbine failures and other failures leading to a shut-down. I guess we made the correct decisions and are still here to remember them.

[barit1]

If you think about what symptoms the Arrow Air crew saw, they probably made an appropriate decision:

Loud bang
N1 spooling down
Nosedown trim required
N2 may or may not be good
high vibs
low fuel flow
low (or loss of) EGT
Low oil pressure, oil quantity dropping

I don't think they knew instinctively that they'd lost a big chunk of engine - they certainly couldn't see it. :rolleyes:

So they shut down #2 and kept going. This is BY NO MEANS the longest OEI flight by DC-10; a SR DC-10 flew KHI-ATH on two in Sept. 1978. :ooh:

At some point Arrow Air made the wise decision not to head toward the very high terrain of Bogota, and diverted to Medellin.

And as fleigel and others have pointed out, there was probably considerable incentive not to remain in Brazil, where they may have been presumed guilty before proven innocent. This presumption ADDED an element of risk that may come back to bite the Brazilians some day; the sooner they overcome this, the better for everyone.

[lomapaseo]

Loud bang
N1 spooling down
Nosedown trim required
N2 may or may not be good
high vibs
low fuel flow
low (or loss of) EGT
Low oil pressure, oil quantity dropping


both N1 and N2 spool down (the N2 ain't gonna work with the N1 not working).

EGT typically goes way up since the combustor no longer can hold the flame without pressure from the compressors. I'm not sure what the gage will show if the EGT probes went with the rear end of the engine.

Impossible to miss those symptoms, but the crew may have been working on it and hadn't sorted it out when they got the radio call. Of course there is no way for the crew to tell about the missing bits and I doubt that the symptoms match what some call "severe engine failure" in a simulator.

[SouthpawSLF]

It will be interesting to see the 'decision tree' that the crew used to continue. Upon hearing and/or feeling the event and seeing the #2 paramters (EGT, N1, Oil Pressure, etc.) nose dive, no doubt they cut the fuel supply via switches or fire handle. An apparent assesment of the situation revealed no anomolous conditions (hydraulic fluid or pressure loss, cabin still climbing at normal rate, airplane still behaving normally, no fire warning, etc.). The long term would include, I would think, the potential loss of either #1 or #3 (for unrelated reasons) over pretty much nothing but jungle between Manaus and Bogota - not to mention the fact of a high altitude landing attempt at BOG. Go around could get tricky...

I wonder if the decision included a thrust increase on #1 and #3 or just a slower climb rate. It would depend, of course, on the weight and balance, but I wonder if they bumped 'em a little or to the firewall. I understand that case in point procedures differ between operators.

This 'bump' would be the issue raised above about the age thing. Even older engines just out of overhaul will respond differently from those that are factory fresh. Overboost - even for a short while - could spell trouble. If memory serves, the BA 744 crew that lost one on takeoff out of LAX a couple of years back, leveled at FL03 for about 20 minutes, THEN made the decision to continue knowing, in part, that there are lots of good diversion points prior to going over the pond if necessary.

I understand that the US NTSB is weighing in on this one given the 'N' status of the airplane and its Miami - based operator. So, hopefully there will be good info from this one....

[GlueBall]

SouthpawSLF . . ."but I wonder if they bumped 'em a little or to the firewall."

Wonder no more. It is not necessary to "bump 'em up" [beyond MCT] or to "firewall" the remaining operative engines. Airplanes are certified to climb and cruise with one engine inoperative. And there is no limitation or time limit to fly with MCT [Max Continuous Thrust] settings if necessary. The only constraint would be a lower cruising altitude and higher fuel burn with one engine inoperative.

[barit1]

I think it quite possible N2 kept running.

In the CF6 the N2 mainshaft bearings are independent of the N1 shaft, and in development testing of a new core the factory might run a "core only" test. The fan & LPT (N1 system) is not a requisite for this kind of test.

With no LPT to provide back pressure on the core, the N2 will still run at its governed value, but all air pressures will be very low - thus not much fuel is required or used. The fuel control N2 governor will take care of that. That's why I say that N2 could have kept running - until voluntary shutdown, or oil starvation, anyway.

Of course, if the LPT departure damaged the aft core bearing, then N2 probably seized up quickly.

[alexmcfire]

OF, doesn´t matter? Strange attitude...

[Old Fella]

alexmcfire I don't know what your motives are, or what your background is. My "it doesn't matter" comment was in relation to your question. The point is the crew of the Arrow Air were the ones best able to assess their situation based on what indications they saw and how the aircraft handled after the failure. Of course the number of failures matters in relation to known trends but that info is not all that helpful at the moment the engine fails. I know, I've been involved in two turbine failures at very low levels, both below 500' AGL. In both instances we were over 340000kgs and rather than recalling previous failures at that time you are too busy sorting out the problem and dealing with it. The decision as to whether to return or continue depends on many factors, the most important of all being the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. Nothing wrong with my attitude, just unsure about yours.

[muduckace]

At some point Arrow Air made the wise decision not to head toward the very high terrain of Bogota, and diverted to Medellin.



Medallin is roughly 7,200 feet, Bogata is at 8,300. The approach into Medellin is more difficult because of terrain. I remember getting EGT lights on T/O regularly out of medellin as a result of the temperature/altitude there. Bogata has a longer runway and allthough at a higher altitude the temperature is cooler.

[dc10fr8k9]

I agree, Manaus is a grand place for a layover, though I don't know if I would worry about being put behind pipes in Brazil for having #2 disintegrate on me. Maybe the Mechanic might, but not the flight crew. You can't even pre-flight that one without a cherry picker, you just gotta cross your fingers and hope the MX department did their job with conscience. Also, their "payload" might have just consisted of empty pallets. I know that was always a technicality, since if the airline doesn't own the pallets, then technically they are "Payload". Even if it was real payload, then hopefully the competent load master made for an aft CG. That means with less aft weight after shedding most of #2, the plane would have a more forward CG so being out of trim range would be the least of my worries.

And I also agree with the previous post, Medellin is a lot more work to land and take off out of than Bogota, and I can say that with certainty because I have loads of experience flying in and out of Manaus, Bogota, Medellin in DC-10 freighters working for a similar "Miami operation". And there are not a lot of emergency landing fields between Manaus and Bogota (like none), and Medellin is even further away than Bogota. It's not like taking off from New York and heading onwards to Houston or something like that on two.

I personally had #2 die on me (lost oil pressure, not catastrophic) somewhere north of Ouagadougou (yes Ouagadougou, those who know the area understand why I didn't decide to land anywhere there). Because yes, on a 3 holer, depending on the circumstances, it may indeed be better to continue. I decided to venture onward on 2 engines toward "civilization". But it was daylight, and severe clear all the way so my decision was easy. Though because of single engine drift down thoughts and wx/fuel, I decided on diverting to MXP rather than going on to BRU straight over Mt Blanc. Some have said that the ENAC (Italian CAA) also shoot first and ask questions later, but fortunately I never heard a word.

No one mentioned the wx conditions at Manaus for a return after dump, so I don't know all the facts. All I know is I would be a bit puckered flying over impassable swamp and some of the highest terrain in the hemisphere all with liberal CB's topping 50,000 feet, and with no en route alternates to speak of, with that much damage. I am sure those jockeys needed a cold beer and a good shot of aguardiente after they settled down. Glad they made it, and the rest, the experts will sort out.

[sussex2]

I remember a similar, but less drastic, failure on a Bcal series 30 way back when..

[cosmiccomet]

If I were the captain of that Arrow Air Flight I would be flying to Caracas than Bogota.

Bogota is a high elevation airport, so if Arrow has to ferry the airplane with two engines it would be penalized a lot.

I had an engine anti-ice valve failure wich we discovered after landing in Valencia-Venezuela. The valve blew up and it made a hole in the engine N2, so we had to keep that engine off.

We had the ferry permit from the FAA and I can remember the penalties for high elevation airports and high temperature were high.

CCS-SVMI has a long runway, appropiate fire and recue equipement and those south american companies fly usually to and from Caracas everyday, so they must have agents and mantainance there.

From Manaus to Caracas is not more than one hour flight and not having to overfly any mountainous terrain is a big advantage when you have two engines in a DC10 fully loaded.

Maybe, they have chosen BOG because Arrow Air has more flight to that destination and their own mantainance people.

Barranquilla would be another good option, sea level and good runway.

[condorox]

CCS and BAQ are about an hour's flightime over BOG.

If a low altitude airport with a long runway was required for a diversion, then Cali (CLO) would have been it.