Ndb Approaches And Equipment [Archive]

Ultergra

26th Mar 2009, 06:58

I Know That The A330 Is Not Fitted With An ADF, And Most Pilots, If Not All, Are Atleast Considered Current And Proficient With, At Minimum The VOR (For The S/o's) And Upwards From There For The F/o's And The Captains.

The Simulator For The A330 Is Fitted With NDB Equipment, However, Endorsements Are Not Inculsive Of The NDB Approach....

What's With The Capital's At The Start Of Each Word Peter?

Ixixly

26th Mar 2009, 06:59

Just about any modern aircraft is no longer equipped with ADF as standard, reason being that they are built in America and America doesn't really use NDBs at all from what i understand (good on'em i say! :E). So its not just Qantas, it'll start creeping out to GA as older aircraft are replaced and/or ADFs become too expensive and harder to find! Not to mention with GPS becoming more and more widespread and reliable.

BPA

26th Mar 2009, 07:17

Plus the CAO changed a few years back, removing the NDB requirement from the instrument rating. The min NAVAID requirement for an instrument rating is a VOR.

peterjdesouza

26th Mar 2009, 07:37

airman1

26th Mar 2009, 09:14

When are they getting rid of NDB's?? Isn’t it 2010?? After this date air services will no longer maintain NDB's and will decommission them as they breakdown ECT? Or am i wrong?:ugh::ugh:

Capn Bloggs

26th Mar 2009, 11:27

Why would they bother?
Because they wouldn't be going to Broome or Ayers Rock at night if they weren't rated and have a serviceable ADF on board. This may have changed recently with the advent of RNP approaches, if they are sole-means nav, but before then, no ADF+NDB, no go at night to BME or AYQ.

Rich Pitch Power

26th Mar 2009, 11:51

A friend of mine/instructor who taught me to fly twin engined aircraft and is an accomplished GPS Instructor/Pilot told and taught me that although NDB's are vanishing everywhere that if it all turn's to custard, gee that NEVER happens!!! anywhere or ever!!! that there will always be a needle somewhere in the aircraft that points to a station 'somewhere' i.e. it is over there.....

Because of this 'never to happen' scenario it is in your best interest to know how to use the ADF/NDB equipment as one day it may be all you have.

More importantly most of us fly aircraft (at the training/GA level that are reasonably elderly > 20 years old) that do have an ADF and although change is ocurring it will be sometime before most of us fly an aircraft without an ADF and even then in case of major failure there will likely be a sole needle pointing to 'something'.

I personally hate the ADF and won't be sorry to see the back of it but I am grateful for a SIM instructor that has beaten the use of the same into me...:ok:

RPP

flog

26th Mar 2009, 23:36

Go have a look at the 172 fleet at Oxford (nee GFS) or the new Seminoles and Warriors at MFS, both at YMMB.

Not an ADF to be found....

Ex FSO GRIFFO

27th Mar 2009, 00:22

How does one get the footy / cricket scores without having an ADF to tune to the local ABC????

CAN'T ask good ole' FS no more!!!

Can't ask ATC either, I hear.....
:eek::eek::eek:

CitationJet

27th Mar 2009, 00:43

Am I the only one who enjoys NDB approaches??? Very comforting, droning around an NDB in the clag with the ident beeping away in the background.

A bit more of a challenge to read the needle properly than a VOR/LOC/ILS.

Had brilliant teaching from Steve Pearce so it always made sense.

Tinstaafl

27th Mar 2009, 01:14

Like you, I have no qualms about ADF/NDB. Simple interface requiring little input or setup other than understanding.

AlJassmi

27th Mar 2009, 02:07

If you want to practice an NDB approach, head for rwy 16 at ML - ILS not working so well at the moment!

ForkTailedDrKiller

27th Mar 2009, 03:27

no ADF+NDB, no go at night to BME or AYQ

Bloggsie, why would it not just mean that you need to carry an alternate that has a VOR appr?

Just curious.

Dr :8

an3_bolt

27th Mar 2009, 03:43

just my bad punctuation if thats what you might call it!..but what i would like to know....do Qantas crew checked for NDB approaches?....for eg...i would be surprised if the 737's were not equiped with ADF's and if equiped one would assume that you would be able to use it...right or wrong.The reason i am asking is that i heard that all the Q fleet were not equiped and that no pilots were now currently required to be profficient with the approach.

Dear Peterjdesouza,

Please tell me you are not a journalist trying to sensationalize and beat up some type of incorrect story........

Go and have a look at the cockpit pictures of the 747-400, 737 series and 767. You find an adf. The pilots are licenced, authorized and checked to use this navaid. There are still plenty of NDB's around the world - although this navigation system will be obsolete in the near future.

My understanding is the A330 is a slightly different story with the NDB approaches replaced by RNAV approaches.

It is my understanding that all is above board and compliant.

I would suggest that your "source" that you "heard" it from obviously has mislead you with partial information - or alternatively has little or no knowledge about the subject.

Should you have any concern - please state your concern so that it can be addressed.

ForkTailedDrKiller

27th Mar 2009, 05:57

The ADF has played a starring role in my last 22 IR renewals so I am somewhat attached to the needle that points the way home, although I have only flown one NDB approach in anger in that time. Given the choice these days, I will take the RNAV Appr every time.

Call me old-fashioned but it has always been somewhat comforting to be able to tune up the Townsville ATIS about 300nm out, and have that needle confirm what 2 or GPSs are telling me.

However, the 32 yr old ADF in the FTDK is now kaput!

I have invested about $1500 trying to bring it back on line - but alas, I feel that it may be money wasted.

A new ADF is about US$7k plus fitting, versus about US$3k for a TSO'd Garmin 155XL GPS. Its kinda hard to justify the extra US$4k for something I never use. The 155XL would be a nice companion for the 430W in the FTDK.

It probably is not an issue for the Gen Y'ers, but for one who cut their IFR on the ADF, it just doesn't feel right flying an aeroplane without the needle that can have a mind of its own.

Dr :8

PS: Yeah, yeah, I know - a 155XL would make 7!

A Comfy Chair

27th Mar 2009, 06:51

Peterjdesouza,

As an3_bolt has said... you are incorrect. The vast majority of the fleets are fitted with an ADF, with SOME (not all) of the A330's an exception.

These days, RNP/RNAV/Whatever it is approved in its place, which is what the A330's use in their place for legalities.

That said, there is no legal requirement to fly anywhere with an ADF anway, as long as you meet all the requirements! Think dual VOR, ILS recievers, and for some fleets, RNP.

The fleets with the ADF's fitted have the pilots apprpriately licenced and qualified to fly approaches with them. Those flying into Melbourne at the moment are having the pleasure!

No story here whatsoever.

Capn Bloggs

27th Mar 2009, 07:10

Bloggs said: no ADF+NDB, no go at night to BME or AYQ

FTDK asked: Bloggsie, why would it not just mean that you need to carry an alternate that has a VOR appr?
Coz is says in AIP. ENR 73.3.2. You can only plan to a destination with no navaids by day. :ok:

Pete, you get nice civil replies here don't you...not.

you are incorrect.

Please tell me you are not a journalist trying to sensationalize and beat up some type of incorrect story........

Go and have a look at the cockpit pictures of the 747-400, 737 series and 767. You find an adf.

Should you have any concern - please state your concern so that it can be addressed.
:yuk:

the reo

27th Mar 2009, 08:16

There are still plenty of NDB's around the world - although this navigation system will be obsolete in the near future.

Yeah and there are plenty of NDBs that have been shut down around the world also. Many approaches overseas do not feature a NDB. Many airfields overseas do not have a NDB approach, but they do have GPS/RNAV, ILS and other navaids.

You can fight it as much as you like but the NDB is going. Australia also will progressively retire its NDB's as they approach their overhaul point.
Plenty of new aircraft do not have an ADF as standard equipment.
Obviously you can pay extra to get one, but that won't be for much longer.
IT's really in the same class as having an ELT that works on 121.5 but not 406.

Tmbstory

27th Mar 2009, 08:22

Rich Pitch Power:

I thought the NDB approach was great, especially in Russia where the location of the beacon was at the approach end of each runway. The needle always seemed to say "hello, dummy, dummy, here is the end of the runway". It often helped!

Tmb

mostlytossas

27th Mar 2009, 08:26

No ADF in GA aircraft? Damn!
There goes the inflight news,sport,and entertainment system.

ForkTailedDrKiller

27th Mar 2009, 08:46

Coz is says in AIP. ENR 73.3.2. You can only plan to a destination with no navaids by day

Hmmmmm, my Jepp says:

3.3 Radio Navigation Aids
3.3.1 A flight which is planned to be conducted under IFR on the last route segment to its destination must provide for a suitable alternate aerodrome, unless
a) for RPT and Charter operations:
1. the destination is served by a radio nav aid .......etc and the aircraft is fitted with two independent and separate radio nav systems; or
2. the destination is served by two radio nav aids .......etc
b) for Aerial Work and Private .......
3.3.2 Not withstanding the above, a flight may be planned under IFR by day to a destination aerodrome which is not served by a radio nav aid without the requirement to provide for a suitable alternate aerodrome, provided that:
a) not more than SCT cloud ........
b) the aircraft can be navigated to the destination ............
Now I interpret that to mean that if I want to plan to an aerodrome without a navaid at night, I must carry an alternate - not that I can't plan the flight, period!

...... but I would be interested to hear from any aviation law specialists out there!

Dr :8

Capn Bloggs

27th Mar 2009, 09:24

FTDK,

Sorry, wrong ref. Don't know the AIPs very well! The applicable ref is AIP ENR 1.4.1. In Jepp, it's ATC series 600, also section 1.4.1:

A flight operating under the IFR by day may be planned to a noninstrument procedure destination provided that the aircraft can be
navigated in accordance with ENR 1.1 Section 19.1.
That precludes planning to go there at night.

I agree that Jepp 3.3.2 is a little more lenient, implying that all you need is an alternate.

Duck Dogers

27th Mar 2009, 10:14

Well I think NDB's are just fine.
Especially when using the Bendix variable tuning model. Fine peice of machinary that! Vavles and all. And a fixed card to boot....pure heavan.

"Ahh when I were a lad...."

RENURPP

27th Mar 2009, 13:13

A cockpit photo may tell you and it may not,

For example, the 717 which Peter flies has two ADF selectors. There is only one ADF fitted. You could likewise have two ADF selectors and have NO ADF's fitted. All the selectors do is display the needle on the ND, not select a frequency.

Simple question, why can't you simply answer it?

Deaf

27th Mar 2009, 14:01

NDB has the huge advantage of being part of an old crude and robust system. Cheap and liitle calibration involved, unlike VOR.

A solar flare will knock out GPS and a decent one will destroy the satellites. Of course in todays world one at the level of the Carrington event of 1859 would mean you die of thirst/starvation/unrest if the CFIT didn't get you first.

PA39

28th Mar 2009, 02:54

:) Yeah, I loved the old NDB approaches....especialy when doing an instrument rating renewal and there were two seperate ADF's fitted and each showing different degrees of track error. We had a choice which to choose and always chose the one furtherest away from the examiner (oblique error) or the one closer to holding tolerance. Safety was always the key issue though, not whether you could really chase a constantly fluctuating needle in heavy turb while hanging onto the thing on one engine. There were some "funny" times with ADF's. Especially doing a let down over some remote strip at night, void of ANY ground lighting except those dull rwy edge and end lights, with rain leaking through the screen or door or both, and dripping onto the plate AND the ADF needle continually indicating where the cells were. Breaking out at the minima and knowing that the strip was behind you somewhere. Gee, in reflection its a wonder more of us wern't smokin' holes in the ground. A BIG congrats to the survivors of earlier aviation. Those days are gone so give me the 580's, 480's CX80's etc etc etc with WAAS..........sooo much safer.

megle2

28th Mar 2009, 22:54

Its my understanding that Air Services Aust has a programe in place to shutdown or renew or install NDB's and that there is also a schedule out to check or commission them over the next couple of years in the King Air's.

airman1

29th Mar 2009, 00:19

A little trick you can do with the Garmin 430 or probably most GPS's link to a VOR. When selecting the reference point for the GPS (Aerodrome reference point, NDB or VOR ect ect) select the NDB, press the OBS button on the GPS and then tune the OBS on the VOR to the inbound and outbound tracks of the NDB approach! You also need to hit the CDI button to display GPS! Have the ADF dialled up and watch the precise precision of the approach! Follow that CDI and it will operate just like a VOR approach takes the fun away I know but it’s handy to have setup just so you can check yourself!:ok:

ResumeOwnNav

29th Mar 2009, 12:57

I usually opt to do the NDB over the VOR, I prefer the NDB Approach.

Leatherdog

29th Mar 2009, 22:58

My first rule of conduct for an NDB approach was to turn the rotating beacon OFF! That seemed the take the 'tick' out of the needles movements.

I did love the Old Tennant Creek Approach, I remember my instrument instructor giving to me and asking how I'd conduct that one. In years to come, I got to do quite a few times.

desmotronic

30th Mar 2009, 00:49

Bloggs, of course you can plan to a non radio navaid destination at night. That section relates to non instrument procedure destination. Both BME and AYQ have GPS approaches. Furthermore if you had dual TSO 145a or 146a receivers you wouldnt even need an alternate.

Dont you have a decent GPS in your shiny jet?

Capn Bloggs

30th Mar 2009, 01:29

Desmo,

of course you can plan to a non radio navaid destination at night. That section relates to non instrument procedure destination.
The issue here is exactly what CASA means by "non-instrument procedure destination". I think you will find that it does not mean that, just because there is a NDB or GPS Approach published, you can plan to go there at night if you are not rated on those approaches. By day, with provision for an alternate (if nec), yes, but not by night.

I made my comment in the context of the original poster enquiring about pilots not being rated on NDBs, and not having GPS NPA approval.

Dont you have a decent GPS in your shiny jet?
No! One can but live in hope... :{

desmotronic

30th Mar 2009, 02:03

If thats what you meant then the correct reference is AIP ENR 1.5.1.

1.5.1 An aircraft operating under the IFR by night having a MTOW
greater than 5,700KG may only be planned to a destination which
has an approved instrument approach procedure for which the aircraft
is appropriately equipped and the pilot is qualified.

Capn Bloggs

30th Mar 2009, 03:01

That's what I meant. :ok:

Mark1234

30th Mar 2009, 03:28

Naiieve question (flying below 5700kg and non IFR, private); can one not be IFR en-route (not necessarily IMC), then change to NVFR and visual for the 'arrival' to a non-navaid field, with a navaid alternate?

In my world I can go NVFR to somewhere without a naviad, I just have to have a navaid alternate (presumably in case I can't find plan A...)