Ex Forces? Full Pension? Watch out!!!

[funkymonkey77]

I am new to this site and thought I would start off with a quick rant! I am about to embark on my B2 self study adventure.Mainly due to the poor wages on offer as a permy mech fitter (21 to 29k on average). I have been out of the RAF for a number of years now and am sick to my back teeth of these companies who rely on a local pool of ex-forces techs who have a full pension and want a job on their doorstep. Wake up! They are using your penson, something you have worked 22 yrs for, away from your family and in dangerous countries to subsidise a quite shocking rate of pay. These companies are taking advantage of you. A girl who checks in baggage where I work earns more than a mech working for Serco or Vosper Thornycroft!!! Who has more responsibility??? Shocking, and by letting them get away with it, you are as to blame as them. Do you think one day they are going to wake up and realise they are ripping you off? They know that already. := Just Say NO!!

[turbroprop]

Say No will not force up the wages paid to mechanics. There will always be people prepared to take a lower wage and maybe support it with their pensions. It is an individual choice. Good luck with you self study, as it takes alot of time effort and motivation, but is worth it.

[funkymonkey77]

ah...turboprop, you just burst my bubble, i am trying to start a revolution here mate!!!

Ah well, it just annoys me though.Especially when the very people who accept these pennies whinge about it.
Thankyou for the good luck.

[Blacksheep]

When I left the mob I always wondered who would be stupid enough to work for any of those rip-off companies. At Heathrow the ex-RAF Chiefy I worked with was making the same wage as me plus his RAF pension on top. Thats only fair, seeing as how I bailed out after just 12 years and he'd sacrificed ten years of civilian pay and conditions to gain that pension.

[jamier]

People complain about only getting £29-£30k but if your wages go up then so do the services then do other things along the line so we get paid more then other things go up which in turn drive prices up along the ling.

[Miles Gustaph]

Funkeymonkey77, I don't think Turboprop burst your bubble, I think you kind of did that yourself.

You have just hit the nail on the head when you said you were taking your trade exams, that's the answer, the way out of the penury situation.

I’ve said this before on another thread, but I get really frustrated when I hear fitters complain about poor standards of pay and how badly done too they are, I particularly find it hard to listen to ex-forces chaps who seem to think that the commercial aviation market should pay them for the time they did in the military.

I’m not anti fitters, hell the industry couldn’t survive without them, and yes there are some guys who just simply don’t want to be a licensed engineer, well that’s fine, but it’s hardly cricket to expect licensed engineers money when you haven’t sat the license exams and got your ticket.

I’m like the majority of licensed engineers I know, I was in the military and I sat my exams before I left in preparation for entering the commercial workplace.
Where I work now there is only one licensed guy who hasn’t come from a military back-ground and a heap of fitters who have never done military time.

As engineers we have for years been saying that there will be a major shortage of license coverage well that time is now, even with the unfortunate redundancies due to the current global financial crisis the vast majority of guys will be able to gain new employment, unfortunately it may entail moving home, but non the less they should be able to gain a new position.

So what’s with complaining that you’re being taken advantage off? It’s only because a company took the chance on you, an unlicensed ex-forces chap that you’re even able to be in a position to get the commercial experience necessary to sit your trade papers. Play fair it’s hardly exploitation is it?

So to summaries, right at this moment, you’re employed by a company which gives you the commercial experience necessary to get a full, un-restricted license and when you get that license you’re going to be in a market-place where there is a demand for licensed engineers and the pay is probably substantially more than a fitters pay…

So what really is the problem?
Is it just that you think that after however many years in the military that the commercial sector should just pay you heaps of money because you’re a 22year ex-military chap?

I think your attitude is bloody selfish, taken advantage off because you have a pension… guess there are no fitters at your place that have never been in the forces and have pensions to top up their salaries, your not complaining on their behalf are you, your not complaining that fitters salaries are poor in general, no your complaining because the commercial sector hasn’t patted you on the head and kissed your arse for your military service.

You go talk to the girl at the check-in desk and ask her if for a few exams on her job she can get anything from a 50%-100% pay rise? And you go look your non-military fitter colleagues in the eye and tell them your badly done too when you get however much in pension more a month than they do. And you ask some of the poor souls who are in there late 40's early 50's who are loosing their jobs due to the current economic climate who are really going to struggle to get another job because of their age, when we in aviation engineering have an average age in the late 50’s…

You’re so badly done too…

[Dual ground]

@ Miles Gustaph

I cannot find anything in Funkymonkeys post that suggests he has a pension and is demanding that the civvy world gives him more. The point that he is making is that the 22 year guys taking on these jobs for 18k and topping up their income with pensions are artifically deflating the wages for those who don't have pensions. In an ideal world these guys would say no, demand a living wage and keep their pensions for the fun things in life, not use them to supplement sub-standard wages.

[Miles Gustaph]

Dual Ground,

“22 year guys taking on these jobs for 18k and topping up their income with pensions are artificially deflating the wages for those who don't have pensions”

How many people do you think do 22 years in the military, and how many do you think that enter the industry to enable them to result in “deflating the wages for those who don't have pensions”?

I’m sorry but the bitter attitude of ex-forces people thinking they are being exploited because of their pensions isn’t the case at all. It’s because while they may be experienced they are not qualified just like any other fitter in the industry.

No matter how experienced you are in this industry it inevitably boils down to what piece of paper you hold, no piece of paper = lower pay.

Come on how many industries have the opportunity to better yourself like ours, yet there are people such as Funkymonkey complaining that they are exploited…

[funkymonkey77]

Calm dowm Miles!!

For your information, I only did 9 yrs service so no pensiion for me anyway. I am not whinging about being exploited as I am not being exploited. I would not allow it! But these companies ARE exploiting ex forces personnel, Serco know for instance that there is a number of ex forces with full pensions on there door step at wattisham. They know many are settled with a good pension. They simply dont need to try and attract people as they are already there. I just think in this industry we are worth a bit more!
Fitters in Aberdeen are on 28+, let serco or VT go up there and start offering their attractive package around!
I am studying now for a better wage in a perm job, more opportunities, and a more stable career.

[Vortechs Jenerator]

Ha haa,

I did my 12then did my licenses and have been making decent money for a good while so I can understand what you're on about.

On the one hand - the old RAF lads are mugs for staying in their comfort zones and working for sh1t wages but look at the other side too mate....

How much would you want to pay some old burnt out tea swilling comfort zone dwelling ex chief who's been off the tools forever and shuffles round a hangar with his pipe and slippers moaning all day?:)

[Miles Gustaph]

Vort' Jen'

Nicely put! :D

[funkymonkey77]

'How much would you want to pay some old burnt out tea swilling comfort zone dwelling ex chief who's been off the tools forever and shuffles round a hangar with his pipe and slippers moaning all day'

Exactly vort, but that is all they will ever get with what they offer!...I simply could not afford to get by on that money.....its a vicious circle as they say!

Anyhow, onwards and upwards!

[EGT Redline]

How much would you want to pay some old burnt out tea swilling comfort zone dwelling ex chief who's been off the tools forever and shuffles round a hangar with his pipe and slippers moaning all day?

Now that is funny…..:ok:

One of the biggest hurdles ex forces guys face when leaving the services is often their own doing. Their attitudes and expectations are often unrealistic. Far too many believe the world owes them a favour and some simply think they can carry on where they left off. During my time in the RAF I worked with a fair number of Sgt’s and C/T’s who begrudged having to study for a licence and thought they should be given one gratis just because they've spent 22 years in the forces. I used to say to these guys that if you are as good as you think you are then why not leave and take your chances out in the real world. Strangely enough they elect to stay in, that old comfort zone where they can hide behind rank pretending to be important is not that easy to give up!!

[blakmax]

As a civilian who has worked directly with service personnel for nineteen years, I observed exactly the same when the RAAF went through their Commercial Support Program some time back. (To reduce costs, you replace a service person with a civilian and pay his company three times the salary paid to the service person.)

Personnel who were essentially redundant were offered sh#t postings or could take a position with the successful contractor at a salary that was reduced to take into account their pension benefits. Now I don't agree with the other (civvy) contributors to this thread about whinging service personnel. :=Why the H*LL should the pension of a serviceman (or to be PC servicewoman) be deliberately used to add to the profit margin of the company employing them? The solution in OZ was to align service training and qualifications with civilian equivalents so that people left with that important piece of paper. (In some cases, that resulted in a lower standard of training and reduced competencies!) Even then the employers still reduced their pay offers to account for their pensions.
The military pension is intended to compensate for crap hours, terrible sub-standard accommodation, family disruption, separation for extended periods and carrying the continual risk of stopping the odd bullet. It definitely is not intended to reduce pay rates on separation.
Go get them, Funky!:D:ok:
Myself? I've retired and have my own comfortable pension.
Blax

[Sonic Bam]

Basic economics, the companies will pay what the market will accept.

If guys coming out of the RAF (or RN or AAC) want to stay close to where there family is settled (eg Wattisham, Leuchars, etc.) and a job comes up that pays, say, £25K and they do there sums (wage + pension - outgoings = enough) then they are entitled to take it.

Some people may not like what they see as "exploitation" but is a business in the civvie world and if a company can employ the calibre of people they want, where they are needed at a wage they are prepared to accept then good on them. It's a free world.

[Dual ground]

I posted a reply in this thread 10 hours ago, and it would appear to still be in a queue for moderation. All I did was cut and paste into it, is that an automatic visit to the mods or is it just because I haven't posted on here much? :confused:

[funkymonkey77]

Duel,

I really dont know mate, u r a veteran on 8 posts. As opposed to my measly 4....hang on 5 now!! wooooohoooo

[funkymonkey77]

And thanks for all ur replies people. Its interesting, whether you agree or not, to see what other people in our industry think.

[Krystal n chips]

There is nothing new about the pension / salary remuneration in the civilian world. Pre Serco / VT there was a well known and well trodden path to a company called Airworks who did precisely this and many ex Forces people joined the organisation.

The airline world has always been a different environment however due to the Licenced / mech / tech divide ( hence the reason Airworks were so popular...same work as the RAF / Navy...but no licence required ) and therein lies but one of the issues for those wishing to make the transition back to civilian life. The perception of many in the RAF is that a Licence= £££'s....which, to be fair, it can....eventually... when you get all your approvals / type ratings plus shift pay etc. Many seem to ignore the little matter of gaining civilian experience first. The actual hands on aspect is the same, but the part which many ex mil.people struggle with is the psychological transition eg, the exposure to civilian commercial pressures and, how shall I put this, "practices" which, at times, as we all know are not entirely "IAW". Then there is the aspect of simply being one of many and no longer having the status / infrastructure of the Mil / Mess / Station to support them. For many, this proves difficult to overcome as does the loss of rank / authority which they were used to.

That said, most ex mil people are invaluable to the beancounting community because of their ability and capability to "get things done"....irrespective of the ideology imposed by management.

The choice is entirely up to the individual concerned therefore as to how he / she makes the transition and wishes to develop themselves thereafter. Nobody else.

[Dual ground]

OK, I have given up on the mods now. I will type the salient details from the advert which I tried to cut and paste into my missing post.

Last year on AJS an advert appeared for time served aircraft electricians and also time served vehicle mechanics, in different locations in the UK. Aircraft work in Hampshire, vehicle work in Wales in the Brecon area. Both posts required apprenticeship papers. The aircraft work was on Chinooks, the vehicle work on military and commercial vehicles. Both were I think you will agree military contracts.

Rate of pay per hour was aircraft lecky 11.48 PAYE. The vehicle fitter was 12.48 PAYE.


Now is anyone prepared to defend a situation where aircraft fitters get paid less than vehicle fitters?

And that Miles, is the kind of situation that Funky and I are not impresssed about. Or maybe you think that 11.48 is a reasonable wage for someone who does not have "the right bit of paper"?

[Vortechs Jenerator]

it is what it is mate.

it's economics of business.Yes, have your moan by all means but that will change what exactly.

I was an RAF rigger, my training was easily good enough and difficult enough for me to pass the licenses required to get to where I am now.

You have to operate in the world -it takes less energy than changing it.

If aviation fell on it's @rse tomorrow, I'd retrain myself in something else and bounce back too. Feeling sorry for yourself is useless

[Dual ground]

Who's feeling sorry for themselves? I personally wouldn't touch military contracts with a barge pole. I don't even work in the UK, I stay in Europe where my accomodation and flights are paid for or I receive allowances as part of my package.

I guess the point is that IF no-one sold themselves short and took these jobs then the rate would have to go up. However, trying to get engineers to stick together even when they all work for the same company is like trying to herd cats. Trying to get connies to stick together is like trying to push you-know-what uphill with a pointy stick.

I just think an attitude of "stop whinging, get a licence, the world owes you nothing, bloody ex-forces useless wasters" is hardly constructive either. Yes I am ex-forces, no I don't have a pension, yes I am unlicensed and no, I wouldn't get out off bed for crap money like that and I just find it hard to believe that people do. The training we received in the forces makes us worth more than that. Guys who are leaving have to have a bit more belief in themselves and their value to civvy employers (without getting too far up themselves obviously).

Comments like " It's only because a company took the chance on you, an un-licensed ex-forces chap" are in my opinion quite derogatory and are not going to encourage forces leavers to set their sights to an appropriate level.

[simonchowder]

The problem is there is a over supply of aircraft fitters, i can recruit as many as i wish, (however the same cannot be said of vehicle mechs who are in shorter supply) ,the reason for this i feel is that the industry is swamped with unqualified people who have never undertaken a aircraft apprenticeship passing themselves off as "aircraft fitters" the majority of these people originated from places such as the big old BAE factories who were recruited in droves in the good times as semi skilled staff on producton work and then after a couple years left and went on the contracting circuit as "aircraft fitters"
The only way the rates will ever rise is when fitters are required to legally hold some form of qualification before they can be employed on aircraft work, its just far to easy for someone handy with tools to become a "aircraft fitter" im afraid, bottom line, if you wish to earn a good salary get licensed, and obtain some decent type rating on that licence

[Sonic Bam]

I am also ex-RAF and know plenty of guys who have left, done their licences and are doing quite nicely for themselves.

I also know ex-RAF guys who can't be a---d studying and have gone connying, love the life and are doing quite nicely for themselves.

I also know a quite a few guys who have left after 22 years who have settled with their families in the area of their last station. The families are settled, they like where they live, etc. These are bloody good engineers though unlicenced. Some have tried connying but didn't like it - too far to commute daily to the nearest job, don't want to live away from thefamily, wasn't worth it when expenses deducted from earnings, etc. They could do their licencesand scoosh them but it comes back to the same scenario as connying - they don't want to do it.

With the privatisation of a lot of jobs on RAF bases they have been able to stay at home with their families and earn enough to keep them happy.

As far as I'm concerend, it still comes back to employers being able to employ people at rates the market can stand. If the rate was too low and nobody would work for it then they have to raise the rate until it reaches a level where people will work for them.

Basic economics, not rocket science or solidarity amongst the proletariat, no herding of cats or national negotiating. People can make their own choices, take it or leave it.