UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law

[Old Lizzy]

Heathrow pilot caught drunk at 9am about to fly to America is spared jail


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx was three times over the alcohol limit when he prepared to take off for San Francisco

A pilot who was three times over the alcohol limit in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 at Heathrow was spared jail yesterday after pleas from his bosses.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, 44, was given a suspended sentence which means he could be able to resume flying after therapy.
The American father of two was acting as First Officer when he was arrested on the flight deck of a United Airlines plane preparing to take off for San Francisco.
Police, called in by worried ground staff, breathalysed him and he was led off Flight 955 in front of stunned passengers.
Blood results revealed that he had 60mg of alcohol in 100ml of blood.
The legal limit for pilots who are about to fly a commercial plane is 20mg - the UK drink-driving limit is 80mg.
The flight was delayed for nearly three hours as United Airlines searched for another pilot.
At Isleworth Crown Court yesterday Judge Sam Katkhuda told xxxxxxxx his decision to drink before boarding the plane at 9am on October 19 last year had threatened the safety of all on board.
Imposing a six-month suspended sentence, he said: 'I'm surprised your captain did not notice you had consumed so much [alcohol] because when you passed through security checks it was noticed.
'One just cannot imagine how a person of your ability would get himself into this position. Certainly to be three times over the limit would have impaired your judgment. However successful you think you may be, alcohol has a negative effect on pilots.'



xxxxxx's barrister Neil Fitzgibbon said he had been 'more dehydrated than normal' and had a shorter period between flights than he was used to.
He had drunk only a modest amount and had not realised he was over the limit.
Two managing directors from United Airlines told the judge about the 'exemplary character and behaviour' of the former U.S. Air Force major.
The court heard he might be eligible to fly for the airline again in a year if he passed a range of medical and psychological tests. This would not have been the case if he had been jailed.
Captain Curtis Hughes told the court xxxxxxxxxx was currently suspended but had undergone an 'aggressive' programme of treatment.
He said: 'In my opinion he is an outstanding citizen and a consummate professional as an airline pilot.
'We believe that with the right kind of supervision and programme he will continue to be a valuable asset.'
xxxxxxxx, who lives in Hawaii, was also supported by a host of character references from colleagues. They described him as an 'expert pilot' whose skills could be called upon in any situation.
The final decision on the return of his wings will rest with the Federal Aviation Administration.
The pilot had admitted performing an aviation function with alcohol over the prescribed limit at a magistrates' court hearing on January 16.
But the JPs considered his offence so serious that they sent him to the crown court for sentencing

[Nicholas49]

Cue 10+ pages of pointless debate on alcohol + flying :ugh:

[Propellerhead]

Old Lizzy, you're and idiot. The UK drink driving limit means you can drink OVER A PINT OF BEER and go immediately driving. Do you really think this is acceptable for airline pilots?

[GroundedSLF]

Pilots know the rules - its their responsability to ensure they stick to them. Easiest way is to not have any alcohol within 24 hours of flying.

I am sure that the limit is there for a reason, and I would hope that it is lower than for driving a car - I am sure that there is a lot more decision making within a very short space of time should something go pear shaped in an aircraft than in a car!

[Old Lizzy]

Yes I probably am an idiot and I amuse myself by smiling like the village idiot at people and keep them guessing.

I am not advocating anyone drinking and flying at all; try to keep up. I am just aghast at the potential penalties for the new laws. Go to jail in a plane but not even get a ticket in a car? Pointless and likely to not cure the problem, just drive it further underground. When you have proactive management and rehab programs, then you can start to address the problem of substance abuse. I am very pleased to see this man's airline go to bat for him, turning out in force and making great pitches to let the courts know that they have intervened and can help this guy a whole lot more in house rather than in jail. Unlike the Virgin pilot at Washington a few Xmas's back, when his unenlightened boss Sir Dick, dropped him (fired and forgotten) like a hot potato - Branson can't handle anything other than great publicity. Two lives threatened, one career saved, and hopefully a family unit kept intact. I like the UA approach for sure. I wish I worked for someone like that.

I don't know what the US limits and could care less. I live on a little island and like being the local idiot. :p Panhandling is a great income supplement.....just need to wear a trash bag and borrow your neighbour's cute little dog....

Redemption and tolerance are good qualities - you should try experimenting with them sometime.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Maybe it's time to change the limit for driving a car?

I recently had a party at home, the following morning i checked my alcohol level. 70 mg. I was so dizzy I didn't belong anywhere near a car, let alone an aircraft.

We know the rules, and we know the consequences of violating them. You will never see me rally behing a colleague caught (proven) above the limit.

Period!

[Checkboard]

I like a drink as much as the next pilot - but in this industry we have extra responsibilities over and above an office worker.

The definition of "an alcohol problem" is simply if your drinking begins to interfere with:
Your family relationships
your helath
your employment


If you are on a short nightstop, and you choose that drink over your job responsibilities, you have an alcohol problem. It doesn't matter if it's "only a small one", or "I'll have less than a driver's limit" - the only hard bit is admitting it to yourself ... hmmm Old Lizzy ??

[ProM]

So he has had enough drink for others to notice
Enough alcohol in his blood that testing has shown DOES affect decision making and reaction times
And he tries to fly a plane with hundreds of passengers

And you are complaining that a sentence he did not get given would have been too harsh?

I don't know what you are complaining about, I think he was bloody lucky TBH

[Xeque]

Sorry guys. He was over the limit at 9AM??? There is no excuse, no mitigating circumstance, no matter how highly others regard him.
12 hours bottle to throttle - another little maxim drummed into me when I was learning to fly. Sure we had a pint or three in the clubhouse after flying ceased for the day. But if I was flying again early in the morning then the 12 hour rule was sacrosanct and still is 30 years later.
And I'm only a humble little PPL.

[DX Wombat]

idiotically low UK alcohol law The limit is idiotic - it's far too high, not low. He should be suspended from his job until he has had sufficient therapy to ensure as far as possible that he has recognised his alcohol problem and it is under good control. As a nurse I have seen far too much of the consequences of excessive drinking. If the USA limits for pilots are higher than those in the UK you will never find me flying with a USA airline, it just won't be worth the risk and I shall also warn my friends of this situation.Get real England! I should say it is the USA which needs to "get real" as you put it.Thank goodness for an enlightened chief pilot going to bat for him. He's not what I would call an enlightened CP if he thinks it is fine to drink and fly. A long spell in an alcohol-free country might do both of them some good.

[biggles7374]

I certainly do not condone flying with any amount of alcohol in your system but I assume that he was operating an American registered aircraft.

Do the UK or American Regulations apply in respect of alcohol levels, if in fact there is a difference?

[Xeque]

Ummm... there is no such place as an 'alcohol free country'. KSA is one of the worst offenders.:sad:

[BabyBear]

"He should be suspended from his job until he has had sufficient therapy to ensure as far as possible that he has recognised his alcohol problem and it is under good control."

Maybe the poor chap just got caught out, granted it's wrong and unacceptable, however therapy for an alcohol problem that is out of control? Let's leave it to those who know the circumstances to decide the action.

"If the USA limits for pilots are higher than those in the UK you will never find me flying with a USA airline, it just won't be worth the risk and I shall also warn my friends of this situation."

Oh dear, bit of an irrational statement, don't you think?

"He's not what I would call an enlightened CP if he thinks it is fine to drink and fly. A long spell in an alcohol-free country might do both of them some good."

Why of course, not only is your experience as a nurse more valid than the experience and knowledge of the CP, in relation to the FO, but it is also sufficient to diagnose the CP as having a need to do without alcohol. Bravo!

[Welle]

hi lizzy..

so what is the blood alcohol limit to drive a bus (loaded with passengers) in the UK? Without knowing the reg I guess it is the same as for flying an aircraft ??


rgds
welle

[White Knight]

Biggles - it doesn't matter where your aircraft is registered, you still have to operate to local regulations too wherever you may be..

[biggles7374]

Thanks White Knight for clarifying that for me.

[Michael Birbeck]

Good luck to this guy. He'll have learned from this experience. Personally I'd rather fly with an experienced ex USAF major than some of the ninnies that grace this forum at times.:ok:. His company seem to be a sensible and decent crowd.

[Doctor Cruces]

I seem to rmember reading an article many years ago in some publication or other, about a military fast jet pilot who took part in a simulator experiment to prove (or disprove) that alcahol and flying don't mix.

Off he flew in his simulated fast jet and did the planned sortie. Somewhere along the line, sadistic sim instructor throws him a curved ball which he handles in an exemplary manner. OK, end of sortie.

Out of cockpit and gets wrapped around a half of bitter or something similar.
Wait half an hour and leap back into the air. Somewhere along this sortie, sim sadist throws exactly the same emergency at him, with a crash and burn result.

No argument really. Alcahol and flying do not mix and anyone who does it as a statistic waiting to happen.

Doc C

[airfoilmod]

Take it or leave it? Any amount of alcohol in an aircrew bloodstream is disqualifying. My Opinion, I've worked in the field. There is such a potential for danger and impairment. A low level means what? Generally a higher level precedent? A hungover pilot is more dangerous than a drunk one, for the most part. If anyone smells alcohol on a professional, he/she isn't.

AF

[FrequentSLF]

I am not advocating anyone drinking and flying at all; try to keep up. I am just aghast at the potential penalties for the new laws. Go to jail in a plane but not even get a ticket in a car? Pointless and likely to not cure the problem, just drive it further underground. When you have proactive management and rehab programs, then you can start to address the problem of substance abuse. I am very pleased to see this man's airline go to bat for him, turning out in force and making great pitches to let the courts know that they have intervened and can help this guy a whole lot more in house rather than in jail. Unlike the Virgin pilot at Washington a few Xmas's back, when his unenlightened boss Sir Dick, dropped him (fired and forgotten) like a hot potato - Branson can't handle anything other than great publicity. Two lives threatened, one career saved, and hopefully a family unit kept intact. I like the UA approach for sure. I wish I worked for someone like that.

In Italy the limit is 50 mg per 100 ml, proposal tabled to reduce it to 20 mg.
Exactly the same of a pilot.

[rh200]

When I was learning to fly many moons ago it was hammered into us "8 hours bottle to throttle", regardless of the legal limit (and including).

Recently I have been working in the mines and some large companys now breathalize every shift, with a 0% level being mandatory., if not big trouble.

It appears from a liability point of veiw they can not be certain that your judgement is not impaired, even with the slightest amount of booze.

Now we all know thats cr#$ but thats the way it is.

[ProM]

Well accoridng to this link, the US limit is 0.4 so he would have been over that at 0.6 as well. And as you can see, the people at that link should know ;)

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/159089-armed-captain-arrested-alcohol-klas.html

[TMAPAX]

Many people can still appear and act as "drunk" when under the set amount to drive a motor vehicle.

It all depends on body size and mass.

Fact is.

60mg, 20 under the UK driving law.

Is poor. Very poor.

Clearly the skill set to fly a 747, is of a much greater scale then a car.

Get real.

He was very unprofessional and it's a shame, someone of such personal responsibility would allow him self into this situration. And infact, risk the saftey of hes fellow crew members and passengers.

Well spotted ground staff.

[Jet Jockey A4]

IIRC the Flight Safety Foundation did some studies on alcohol and flying and how it affects the performance of pilots in the cockpit.
Depending on the situation they said the reduced performance levels could linger on for up to 48 hrs after the drinking had stopped.
The age old rule of 12 hrs between the bottle and throttles is really a minimum to go by and perhaps it should be revised upwards (perhaps 24 hrs).
The UK does not need to be told by an American citizen what is right or wrong with their rules... It's very arrogant on his part. The UK and many other European countries have similar alcohol limits and it is up to foreign crews regardless of aircraft registry to respect those limits or else face the music.
I am pro setting limits like in the UK which puts hard numbers down in the books as law to be followed. I'm sure the USA as similar rules/regs but most lilkely are a bit less restrictive then the UK's numbers.
For the record I'm not against a company and its CP trying to defend its pilot under certain conditions especially if they can enter him in an alcoholic recovery program.

[rubik101]

In some states, India being one, the limit is ZERO, nada, Zip, nothing.
Pilots seem able to function and fly quite adequately whilst adhering to such limits. You don't have to drink just because you are a pilot!
The limit in UK is far too high.

[ProM]

Old Lizzy. Your words were "idiotically low UK alcohol law "

Can you name in which countries he would NOT have failed the level for pilots?

[Hahn]

May be the poor chap just fell victim to the fact that english beer is a bit stronger than the american equivalent?:eek:

[Just wondering]

However, quite ok to be awake for an obscene period of time and land a 747 with 400 people - all the work done in that field has been ignored !

Remember the guy who went to jail for crashing a car and trailer onto a railway early in the morning (having fallen asleep at the wheel) because they proved he hadn't been to sleep that night......

With all the liabilities stalking the average pilot and the police beating the rescue crews to an accident I will nver allow my kids to get into this profession.... maybe into banking which carries no responsibilites

[Matthew Butterworth]

So he's easily legal to drive a car, but 3 times the flying limit??.


In a car your responsile for very few people.

In a aircraft you could be responsible for hundreds.

A aircraft is a helluva lot more complicated then a car.

What a stupid person you really are.

[Polarhero]

Old Lizzy!

You and people like you that cannot accept rules that are clear and well known have no place anywhere near an aircraft (or in fact Oxygen).

So you think that it is ok to be over the limit to fly, because you don't agree with the limit in place. Do you also not respect the drink drive limit?

Well please let me know where and when you fly(or drive) and i will avoid the area, as it is STUPID FOOLS like you that kill people. Trust me i know as i had a very good friend killed by some w****r that was drunk.

:mad:

[ManaAdaSystem]

Personally I'd rather fly with an experienced ex USAF major than some of the ninnies that grace this forum at times.

What are you trying to say?

Experienced ex USAF majors are better at flying under the influence? Or are they more experienced in flying under the influence?
Taking a stand against flying and drinking makes me a worse pilot?

What?

[NOTSURE]

OK guys, lets move the discussion one step further for all our (pilots!) benefit. Those of us who were in the industry 20 years ago, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, know very well how it was then - before the hype that eroded our profession, by anyone who desires so, was introduced.

I am not advocating drinking before flying - any amount - and diligently adhere to 12 hours rule, which is sensible and responsible.

I am also very happy that concerned pilot had the management able to look beyond the hype - and see big picture. Very rare situation these days.

I fly in a part of the world where limit is ZERO ZERO. But, how reliable are breathalyzer tests?
Say, before going for a flight, you use a mouthwash - and if You were not careful enough to choose one WITHOUT alcohol, that breathalyzer is going to read something -0,00000001 - technically speaking, you are over the limit - big trouble. Many other products, or food (especially fermenting food, in combination with fruits) will give you a "failed" result.

As far as I am concerned, I would opt not to blow the tube - take my blood sample if you want facts! But the problem is - You refuse the breathalyzer, they take it as over the limit.
And You are done. Licence, job, GONE. As here, we have NO Pilot Union to help you, management - no-one to stand up & say a good word.

Do You call that a sensible approach?:rolleyes:

And also, coupled with the crizis + corporate greed - ever increasing duty time, a lot of minimum rest periods - let's face it - our lives have changed dramatically, and I think it is ridiculous that I have to wait, say, 5 days to be able to take my ONE beer, or a glass of wine, along with my dinner:ugh:!!!

Bottom-line: Some - minimum - limit has to stay, say, 0.2 promille - (as we had it here also, only few years ago) to make it workable. Management thinks, under public pressure, they will make it a "safer" environment if they impose more restrictions:=

[Super VC-10]

He was over the limit, so he broke the law in the UK. Ignorance of the law is no excuse in the UK, I would expect that would also be the case in most (if not all) countries outside the UK too,

Legal limit for driving a bus is 80mg/100ml breath. That said, If I'm driving a motor vehicle I don't drink alcohol at all. 0 mg/100ml is the safest way. I remember my first driving lesson when the instructor said to start the car and just sit there holding the steering wheel. He then asked me what I had in my hands, to which I replied "the steering wheel". "No!" he said, "You're now holding a lethal weapon that can kill you and others!" When I thought about it, I realised he was right.

[fox niner]

The legal limit is 0.2 promille because 0.0 is impossible.

The human body makes its own alcohol (by digesting food)

Brown bread/fruits/sugar/water is all that is needed.

Also, being a diabetic for example will help you over the limit.

[VS-Toga]

I cannot believe the original post (other than the factual content which I knew about) and wonder if it's a jerk on the wind up. If so, it's success; I am actually quite wound up.

I am no big drinker, but if I drink a pint (60mg), I am aware of it, and that says it all.

In my humble opinion, there is no excuse for abusing the huge trust vested in you from both your employers and the public. If you can't respond properly to that trust then go push a pen, not a throttle.

It is also not only the pax on his flight at risk; analyse the risk profile of commercial flying and the risks on the ground, especially in densely trafficed airports, are equal to if not greater than those in the air. (don't get me wound up on taxi-ing speeds either!!)

The bottom line is if you judgement/reaction is impaired by even 0.05% then you should not do it, as, by definition, you are yourself increasing the risks.

Our industry spend millions tinkicking incidents and events. The same millions are spent on trying to control everything we can control, and offering proceedures and checklists to obviate risk; so is it not reasonable to assume self control should be a given?

Yes I admit by some of the standards on Pprune, there is moisture behind my lugholes, and I'm sure a few old hands might respond less than favourably to my opinion. If so, fair enough, but I believe in what I have written and those are the standards I abide by. No alcohol 48 hrs beforehand for me.

As for this:

Redemption and tolerance are good qualities - you should try experimenting with them sometime.

Would the families of any potential victims been prepared to experiment with the same redemption and tolerance?

Old Lizzy a village idiot? I think not. Idiot of global proportions; yes. ****head on the wind up; without question.

Rant over.

[POL.777]

That's it, I am going to the pub.
(and I stick to the 12 hour rule).

[hellsbrink]

If flying an aircraft whilst under the UK DUI limits is acceptable to Lizzy, I would love to hear his views on the London Underground ZERO limit for anyone, not only LU personnel, working on their "property". So even a humble cleaner would be fired instantly with the slightest amount of alcohol on his breath, same as a train driver. (I know 0.0 is impossible, as some diabetics create alcohol in their bodies but most people don't, but if there is no medical reason for 0.1mg in the system then you are out)


But 60mg at 9am? If he had a few the night before (likely, going by the look of things) then he had quite a few for it still to be noticeable, or he had a swifty at some point before going near the aircraft. I don't know what is actually worse, being on the razz the night before or having a quick beer before work. The second one would definitely indicate an alcohol problem, because nobody should realistically need a drink at, what, 6-7-8am allowing for time to get through everything and get to the gate?


And, no, I have NEVER worked or driven under the influence, not even the morning after. That was drilled into me by someone who had the "joys" of cutting people out of cars after they drove drunk, or thought they could, as well as the joys of having 240vac go up your arm when you are sober. Any alcohol does increase the risks, no matter what your profession is.

[hellsbrink]

May be the poor chap just fell victim to the fact that english beer is a bit stronger than the american equivalent

Is it? Most UK beers are 5%abv or lower, and I certainly do remember getting 5%abv or higher in the USA.

Now, if he was on the stuff they make here, I would go along with your statement.

[Michael Birbeck]

ManaAdaSystem

Chill man, chill. Drinking has never made anyone do anything better and pilots shouldn't drink within 48 hrs of duty time, period. This chap has made a mistake (and is now paying for it). I think a sober USAF major is likely to be a good pilot and one that we might learn from (I certainly can). I believe that UA have shown their belief in this guy and I am sure that he will recover himself and pay them back handsomely with years more good, safe flying. Far better to help a good man off the ground and back into the air than kick him when he's down.

[sussex2]

'In Italy the limit is 50 mg per 100 ml, proposal tabled to reduce it to 20 mg.
Exactly the same of a pilot.'

Ditto in Spain were they have random, frequent, and strict breathylyser checks.
I have been stopped on two occasions. You get out of your car, into the back of the analysis van, get your result, and if ok, your'e away.
You don't have to make any mistake, crash or come to the attention of the police to qualify. I've even seen a bus driver have to do this test.
Drinking within 12 hours and flying an aircraft :=
This guy was lucky, very lucky, and I tend to wonder if the same light sentence would have been handed out to a UK registered pilot!

[sussex2]

'Is it? Most UK beers are 5%abv or lower, and I certainly do remember getting 5%abv or higher in the USA.

Now, if he was on the stuff they make here, I would go along with your statement.' - unquote..

I believe that beer in the U.S. is probably stronger than in the U.K. as a general rule.
'Proper' UK beer is around the 4 percent mark (session real ale somewhat less); whilst most U.S. beers are 5 percent - generally due to the laxed laws, not published on the bottle.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 'Lite' beer means lighter in alcohol, which is not the case. In fact is simply means lighter in colour - nothing more.

[NigelOnDraft]

After 17-19 hours awake (equating to between 10:30 p.m. and 1 a.m. when many of us go to bed), the participant's performance corresponded to 0.05 percent blood alcohol content; half the legal limit. This is a fairly normal day for most military members, especially those flying large aircraft on long cargo-carrying or air-bridge missions. Their response speeds during the tests were 50 percent slower overall, and accuracy measures were significantly poorer than at the 0.05 percent BAC level of alcohol. At longer levels without sleep, their performance reached levels equivalent to the maximum alcohol dose given to subjects of 0.10 percent (Williamson, Feyer, 2000). Feature - "Oh Man, Am I Beat!" (http://www.afsc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123109954)
No comment other than that the laws re fatigue regularly see crews flying hardly able to stay awake, and as above, scientifically proven to degrade performance in the same way, and to a greater degree...

NoD

[Final 3 Greens]

The thread title seems wrong to me.

How about "Criminal avoids jail sentence"?

[ProM]

Not entirely true Sussex:

Budweiser = 5.0% abv
Bud Light = 4.2% abv
MGD = 5.0% abv
Miller Lite = 4.2% abv
Coors Banquet = 5.0% abv
Coors Light = 4.2% abv
Corona Extra = 4.6% abv
Corona Light = 4.5% abv
Heineken = 5.4% abv
Hein. Light = 3.5% abv
Labatt Blue = 5.0% abv
Labatt Blue Light = 4.2% abv

You will note that the Lite versions are lower ABV than the 'full' versions

There are differences in beer but certainly not enough to justify a difference between 20mg per 100ml and 60mg per 100ml. That is a red herring

As has been stated, he was either out late on the razz or had a snifter for breakfast. Neither is good

[blimey]

......it was hammered into us "8 hours bottle to throttle",

12 hours bottle to throttle......

Easiest way is to not have any alcohol within 24 hours of flying.....

and pilots shouldn't drink within 48 hrs of duty time, period.......



Any advance on 48 hours..............

Apparently one:
You don't have to drink just because you are a pilot!


10 mls = 1 unit. 1 unit (+) metabolised per hour. Do the math(s).

[hellsbrink]

I though "Lite" was somehow "lighter" on calories due to some process? After all, as an example, "Bud Light" is the same colour as regular "Bud".

(Here we go, let's talk about something sensible like BEER!)

[Michael Birbeck]

Let's do the arithmetic. Arrive in London on Friday evening. Interrupted sleep and party at old friend's house on Saturday afternoon (rostered to fly again on Monday morning at 07:30 hrs so should be fine). Have a good party but overdo it, say drink 6 pints strong lager (6 x 3 units) and a glass of wine (1 x 2 units). Total time to metabolise alcohol 20 hrs so shouldn't think about going near an aircraft for at least twenty hours. After twenty hours, say late Sunday afternoon should I jump into my PA28 and go do a bit of fun flying before bed prior to work on Monday. No, because I will be hung over, tired, alcohol distrubs sleep patterns, and still nowhere near fit to fly. Will be sober on Monday morning but may still be fatigued and nowhere near my prime. Stay with the 48 hr rule. If you drink enough to break that rule then you'll either die of alcohol poisoning before you break the law or kill someone or wake up and realise that you have an alcohol problem and voluntary disbar and (hopefully) debar yourself

[blimey]

It's been said elsewhere before but:
Stay with the 48 hr rule.
And most of us would spend most of our lives not drinking. Personally, I like a beer or a glass of wine to unwind at the end of the day; it helps me to relax, to sleep, and to face another busy day. I know my alcohol/fitness to fly limits, like most pros do. I don't need any extra restrictions.

PS I think the 20mg flying limit is spot on; driving should be 50mg like most of Europe.

[ChristiaanJ]

As NOTSURE already mentioned, a lot of foods and non-alcoholic drinks contain small amounts of alcohol (think apple juice). So do things like medicine , or mouthwash. And as if that were not enough, your own body will do a good job of fermenting even some totally alcohol-free food and drinks.

As far a I can find, we're talking about an order of magnitude less alcohol than is contained in alcoholic drinks (beer, wine, etc.) but that would still translate to a residual blood alcohol level of something like 1 to 2 mg per 100 ml (a tenth or less of the lowest legal limit of 20 mg), which makes a nonsense of the so-called 'zero-zero' limit.

I tried to refresh my memory by looking up 'residual' or 'natural' blood alcohol content, but didn't find any significant figures.

Does anybody else have some data?

CJ

[AnthonyGA]

It worries me when I see any pilot trying to defend any amount of alcohol in the blood while flying. I'm surprised that anyone who takes flying seriously and makes it a part of his life would drink alcohol at all, but it's especially worrisome if he tries to justify having the drug on board while flying. I think a pilot needs to wait until his blood alcohol is zero before going anywhere near a flight deck. (And, before anyone says anything, I'd apply exactly the same rule to operating any other type of vehicle—a racing-car driver or bus driver or motorcycle rider who gets behind the wheel with any trace of alcohol in the blood is also worrisome.)

[Ancient Mariner]

Plenty "urban myths" re blood/alcohol circulating here.
Have a read: http://www.icap.org/portals/0/download/all_pdfs/ICAP_Reports_English/report11.pdf
Per

[Two's in]

UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law

And the US Federal Aviation Regulations (0.04 = 40mg/100ml)

FAR Sec. 91.17

Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft--

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
(2) While under the influence of alcohol;
(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
[(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.]

...so he was 3 for 4 anyway under US law.

[ChristiaanJ]

I think a pilot needs to wait until his blood alcohol is zero... If so, he will have to wait until the cows come home!

Define "zero", please.

My point was simply, that by the time we are talking something like 1 or 2 mg, we're talking persistent natural residual blood alcohol.
By that time, other factors, such as fatigue, worries, too much coffee, you name it.... will have taken over as performance-impairing causes.

CJ

[blimey]

AnthonyGA

I notice from your previous how worrisome it is for you that all professional pilots haven't foresworn alcohol. You also have difficulty with nicotine. Well worry on, my friend: pilots drink and smoke, and some have even been seen to take caffeine. Best you stay on the ground. :ok:

[One Outsider]

Should the Bishop of Rome ever fall off his balcony while waving to the adoring masses, his replacement should be easy to find.

There never was a shortage of Holy Men.

[Oilhead]

I believe this to be a silly wind up.....I fly for UA and yes, they have a very effective intervention program. Noooooooot of course that I have first hand experience! :}

[hellsbrink]

After reading Anthony's post, may I be REALLY pedantic and point out that alcohol is NOT a drug, by definition?

A poison, yes, but not a "drug"

[Rananim]

I believe French pilots still drink wine with their food on the flight deck.However,it must be a good claret..none of the cheap stuff.

[hellsbrink]

I'd be careful saying that, Rananim.

Last time I saw someone say that, not exactly too long ago, a purple dragon descended and kinda put things straight.


Very, erm, "polite yet forceful" in the words used was the term I thought at the time....

[flash8]

Of course, the fuddy duddy magistrates (with whom common sense is a rare trait indeed and legal training even rarer) were probably awed by having such a magnificent case in front of them and quickly dispatched it up the ladder with shaking hands.

Going by the result, I for one am glad common sense prevailed this time and the guy was given the chance to rehabilitate himself and continue his career. So we do have Judges that still have common sense. Surprisingly enough.

[Longhitter]

Hellsbrink:

Alcohol, by definition, IS a drug and also a poison. Let's not get caught in definitions. Fact is that alcohol-related diseases kill more people than heroin, and that alcohol is considered a hard-drug by scientists.

Rananim:

Not true. I think the same limit applies throughout Europe for alcohol.

LH

[VS-Toga]

.I fly for UA and yes, they have a very effective intervention program.

Concerning on three levels:

1. They have one
2. They need one
3. The cpt was so unforgivably unprofessional in the first place

[blimey]

VS-Toga

Does it concern you that all airlines have safety programs and that they need them - aren't they all perfectly safe? :ugh:

[Flintstone]

Old Lizzy. When you started this thread had you completely forgotten what you'd written in the one about Pablo Mason?

Breaking the rules or adjusting them to your purposes is one thing, doing it with a plane full of paying passengers is quite another..........There was not the slightest hint of justification for breaking the law.........I don't care who was who, or what was what; it is breaking the laws of both the land, and of common sense, it's that simple....


Then again you also wrote the following......I live on a little island and like being the local idiot.............which puts your behaviour here in perspective I suppose. Then again I've got you marked down as a troll so none of it matters.

[Nigd3]

I think Flintstone has it sussed.

First post looked a little iffy and troll like. Old lizzy must be laughing his head off at the response he got

[VS-Toga]

VS-Toga

Does it concern you that all airlines have safety programs and that they need them - aren't they all perfectly safe?

Not at all. Safety programmes are an essential part of any SOP and continuing professional development and learning programme. It is needed.

The UA Intervention programme is another phrase for rehab.

Your analogy is ridiculous.

For his colleagues to describe him as an outstanding professional is pretty insulting considering what he's done.

And, for the record, I am not without vice. I smoke a bit and I like a glass of wine.

I do agree with you that 20mg would cover all bases, however.

[Rananim]

I think the point is that there are pilots who never drink,smoke,curse or break a rule but yet they may well be the last person youd want sitting next to you in an emergency.The CP realized the world is full of pen-pushers and probably didnt want to lose a good pilot on a technicality.My compliments to the judge for his/her wise decision.

[hellsbrink]

Longhitter


It's a poison which acts like a drug WHEN you have a problem.......


(Now where did I put me beer)

[philbky]

Obviously Old Lizzy, coming from the US is far more scared of TERRORISTS
than he is of flying innocent passengers around when outside legal drink limits, given his contradictory views on rule breaking.

I just wonder if he'd like to explain the difference (for all involved in the aircraft, the building and the aftermath) between a fully loaded 747 hitting a building due to terrorism and a fully loaded 747 hitting a building due to pilot error caused by being sluggish due to drink.

[XXPLOD]

Perhaps I can add a slightly different perspective. I'm a UK police officer and have arrested numerous drink drivers, and perhaps more important was a custody sergeant in a busy custody suite for a long time. I must have booked in a lot of drink drivers.

60mg alc in 100ml blood is way too high to be fit to fly. I think the current 20mg rule is about right a it allows for any residual alcohol/mouthwash issues etc...

To give some idea of scale: 1 standard pint of beer = 2 units alcohol = approx 30 mg alc in 100 ml blood.

The average body will absorb approx. 1 unit or 15 mg or 1/2 pint of beer per hour.

Do the maths and work out how much he must have been drink in the hours before his flight. He was either coming down from a BIG session or he has a drink problem and was 'topping up.'

If it's the former there are some serious questions his employer needs to ask about professional standards. If it's the latter he needs to be thoroughly assessed over many months before he is allowed to fly again.

[M100S2]

'xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx was three times over the alcohol limit'

Why the 'censorship'? ...especially when his name is in every UK national newspaper and numerous news websites.

[keepin it in trim]

I like a drink as much as the next man (I have one just now). I work for a company where we regularly spend several days away down route. Many of my colleagues enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, and nothing more, good for them. As I am not sure that I could exercise that level of control, and to avoid doubt on my part, I do not drink alcohol from the night before I start a tour until I get home at the end of the last day.

It is not because I am a stronger man than them, but because I am weaker. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, but also if I felt my colleague was "unfit" to fly, I would discretely invite him to call in sick and suggest that he might like to seek some help. I know a few former colleagues who had serious problems, and, with support, not only overcame them but also became outstanding councillors for those with similar issues.

I think UA should be praised for taking a firm but fair line to rehabilitate this pilot. Thankfully nothing terrible happened, and throwing someones whole life away when the opportunity for redemption exists would be very harsh.

Let he who is without sin........

[Kestrelpilot]

The UK alcohol limit for flying is as far as I can see effectively zero as it's set such that a teetotaller who'd drunk some out of date orange juice would pass (just) but someone who'd had an alcoholic drink is likely to fail.

[strix]

It seems to me that nobody is disputing whether alcohol is okay when flying, nor even whether the guy in question's conduct was unprofessional. Most of this thread seems to centre around what should or should not have happened to him.

Now, I'm SLF so I welcome the perspective of the professional community - however I do drive. What always struck me about drink driving laws is that there's no spectrum.

If the limit here in the UK is 80mg, then the bloke at 79mg who has an accident is not criminally culpable, yet clearly his driving was impaired. In this situation, the police have no means of sanctioning the driver's bad behaviour, and only a civil case can be made.

The bloke at 81mg *is* criminally culpable, even if his bad behaviour was only incrementally worse than the 79mg chap. He will at least lose is licence - or if the situation warrants it - go to jail. The difference of 2mg (vanishing to zero) seems disproportionate to the difference between a criminal conviction or not.

Of course, there must be limits codified in law that tells a police officer, judge or jury when a case becomes criminally liable.

So why isn't there a graduated penalty? If 20mg is the threshold set to allow for legitimate medical conditions, slight miscalculations from the night before (tut tut), personal variation, etc, and under which public safety is not threatened, there must be some amount above that - say 40mg - in which the consequences recognise the misconduct, but stop short of criminal conviction. You screwed up - made a mistake and were unprofessional - but the worst that will happen is that you get fired. Above that, you're into the realm of criminal negligence, and ought to answer to a judge.

Where to set the thresholds is another matter. The second threshold still needs to be low enough to send the signal but without presenting undue risk to the public[1] but some spectrum or graduated consequence would better reflect the magnitude of a person's misactions.

It seems rational for driving potentially lethal cars. Is it rational for aviation?

strix.

[1] note that there are lots of risky behaviours which go unregulated. Lack of sleep, for example - and probably only because it can't easily be quantified. If you buy the idea, then the rest becomes an exercise in evaluating risk. (and lets not forget that crossing the road carries a nonzero risk.)

[News Shooter]

I don't understand this whole discussion. This is very strange. A drunk pilot getting ready to take off with hundreds of passengers. Are you kidding?

[African Drunk]

Can anyone tell me which aviation accidents have been attributed to alcohol?

With CAP 371 now being seen as a target to achieve/exceed and fatigue often being worse than drink are we not missing the biggest danger?

[rottenray]

First, this:


Obviously Old Lizzy, coming from the US is far more scared of TERRORISTS
than he is of flying innocent passengers around when outside legal drink limits, given his contradictory views on rule breaking.

Phil, get a grip - we're deadly afraid of EVERYTHING in the US...


Next, I'm not a pilot and don't want to become one, but really enjoy pprune because of the "intercourse" between pilots, wannabees, and maintenance folks.

I've known several alcoholics, and I can honestly say that many of them are much better overall left to their own devices - some are much better doing anything when they stick to their normal routine.

Now, I'm not saying said pilot is an alcoholic - and I'm not defending him either - but if it's his habit to have a couple martinis with dinner, and his dinner happened late that day, what should we think?

Natch, I'd prefer to have "human robots" on the flight deck. Perfect people who don't fart, don't smoke, don't drink and don't swear. (Thank god we don't have to say hello to the crew anymore when we fly... LOL!)

It seems to me we should be thinking about the guy's normal habits at this point, thinking about whether or not there's a problem brewing in his future.

The issue doesn't go a long way in putting that nasty old "I'll have what the pilot's drinking" airport bar joke to rest, does it?


...

[chuks]

There was a long, drawn-out discussion about this a few years ago.

The FARs are very clear about how much alcohol is allowed, when this man was over the limit. That is open-and-shut.

The FAA has a procedure for someone to resume flying that is very rigourous, meant to ensure that he will have his drinking under control the next time he flies.

Then there is a program in place with his airline, perhaps part of the way he can get back to flying under the FAA rules. Most if not all of the major airlines have such programs nowadays and it is an accepted part of the scene. It is not as if United Airlines runs some sort of unique, private sanatorium!

If you really don't like the idea of flying with an airline that has a program meant to help crew with their health problems (when alcohol abuse falls into this basic category - more modern thinking) then you are probably out of luck using any of the majors. Perhaps you would feel much safer on an airliner without seat belts as well. Seeing them along with that nasty little safety briefing card hints that there might be a problem.

In reality, of course, we just try to spot problems and deal with them in a reasonable way, whether it's alcohol abuse, having a crash or any of the other manifold complications inherent in zooming along packed into a thin alloy tube. You are still safer than driving in your car, doing that.

[etrang]

may I be REALLY pedantic and point out that alcohol is NOT a drug, by definition?


Alcohol IS a drug by any sensible definition. However, in most places it is a legal rather than illegal drug.

[Jofm5]

I have read this thread and I do withold judgement as I do not know the circumstances.

But what I will say to all of you that have passed sentance consider the the following:-

1 the guy was found in a situation whereby he exceeded his limit, is it a one time screw up or does he have a problem.

2. If he has a problem, could the airline have done more to recognise this before the situation occured

3. If he has a problem, what is the best way to re-educate the people that helped conceal the problem.

4. How do you deal with the problem.

There are always going to be occaisions where the rules by thumb dont pan out - different alcohols get absorbed at different rates - if your drinking shots then they are pretty immediate, wine takes longer to be absorbed and beer longer still - dont ask me why I am not a doc.

But as a functioning alchoholic trying to kick the habbit there is alot more to be drunk in any one situation than just the drink taken.

You can argue whether alcholol is a drug or not - it matters little - the facts are that the social aspect alone draws people into the circle.

I dont know if this guy had 1 too many or had thought he would be okay, but what I do applaud is the fact that regardless he got support if he had a problem or not. That support leads to him having an option to regaining his life and career - such support I have never known outside the aviation industry.

I personally think you should really consider - there but the grace of god go i - because it is all too easy to fall into. I know and are trying to deal with it.

And no I am not a pilot

[chuks]

According to Wikipedia, "drug" is a bit vaguely defined. You have stuff ranging from the humble aspirin to all these modern antibiotics: medicinal drugs.

When it comes to aviation many people are surprised to find that many medicinal drugs are illegal! The drug puts you in a condition of unfitness to fly, simply put.

Then we come to the fun stuff: recreational drugs. Some of the really enjoyable ones are unfortunately illegal, which does seem rather a shame. Okay, cannabis can rot your brain and ecstasy (MDMA) turn you into a vegetable but... So the nanny state tries to save us from ourselves by making them illegal. As far as I know there's no rehab program for cannabis users who are pilots but I could be wrong about that. As to ecstasy there was just a report published about a PPL who took some and then went flying, killing himself and his young passenger.

Alcohol is a legal recreational drug but not everywhere and always. Plus there are usually limits to its use so that simply taking too much can see you arrested.

Alcohol is also a poison, hence the term "intoxicated". which literally means "having ingested poison". Every so often we get to read about someone who checks out after proving that he can "chug" a quart of vodka. That puts the body into a footrace between nausea (a protective reflex) and death from alcohol poisoning. Usually our hero barfs all over himself before passing out, to general merriment and no one permanently the worse off but every so often the alcohol is kept down to command a general shut-down of first higher brain functions but later all those boring things such as breathing that keep us alive.

Alcoholism is accepted nowadays as a disease with stages and one "marker" can be alcohol tolerance. Basically a heavy drinker can drink more and, while still impaired, function better than a non-drinker with the same blood alcohol level. In the terminal stage of the disease alcohol is necessary for proper functioning; this is when you get the snakes crawling up the walls and the "shakes" until that first drink to start the day with.

I knew a guy who could put away a quart of Scotch an evening but do a pretty good job of flying the next morning early. He still lost his job, though. It was just that in those days and in that environment we had all been trained to look the other way for the most part. I tried to intervene but got nowhere with him.

In an ideal world, like the one dreamed of by the Nazis, anyone with a disability would be quietly done away with so that we would have a godlike general population. Instead we try to find ways of allowing people with flaws, and that includes most of us beyond a certain age, to still work and contribute to society, including alcoholics.

An odd thing is that you can end up flying again but you will still be an alcoholic, just one who doesn't drink! (Think of it this way: I am a raging heterosexual but that doesn't mean I am going to have sex during the flight. I have learned to control my male urge, always present, to have sex.) There are ways to try and teach people to control the urge to drink as well that have been proven to be effective. The rationale is that it is much better, much safer in the long run, to have rehabilitation programs in place if the alternative is a pilot hiding his problem and going untreated.

Everytime there is an incident like this one you will get a typical response from some that anyone with a drink problem should be tossed out of aviation without a second thought. The funny thing is, I usually imagine that same sort of responder then having another snort before going on to fulminate about the next social problem that shows up on his screen, homosexuals allowed to marry and adopt children, perhaps. At best that's just nostalgia for an age when we went for simple solutions and kept problems decently out of sight. "Times have changed and we must change with them." Well, that is what my 19 year-old daughter keeps telling me, anyway!

[FlyingCroc]

And it is sad. Maybe just bad luck or judgement. One drink too many? Let's suppose the guy went to the pub at night around 4pm and left around 11pm, in order to have 0.06% BAC at 9 am he would have to drink about 7 pints of beer (thats about 14 bottles) :eek: That doesn't make any sense.

A good way is to calculate when to stop drinking, 12 hours is not always enough.

[Hahn]

Can anyone tell me which aviation accidents have been attributed to alcohol?

Yes, I can! A colleague managed to fly into the mountain after having a glass. The fact that he was pretty fast made it impossible to find any substances in what was left....

[Jofm5]

that sound terrible hahn


I wish someone would have heleped him with his problem before hand

[His dudeness]

I like a drink as much as the next man (I have one just now). I work for a company where we regularly spend several days away down route. Many of my colleagues enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, and nothing more, good for them. As I am not sure that I could exercise that level of control, and to avoid doubt on my part, I do not drink alcohol from the night before I start a tour until I get home at the end of the last day.

It is not because I am a stronger man than them, but because I am weaker. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, but also if I felt my colleague was "unfit" to fly, I would discretely invite him to call in sick and suggest that he might like to seek some help. I know a few former colleagues who had serious problems, and, with support, not only overcame them but also became outstanding councillors for those with similar issues.

I think UA should be praised for taking a firm but fair line to rehabilitate this pilot. Thankfully nothing terrible happened, and throwing someones whole life away when the opportunity for redemption exists would be very harsh.

Let he who is without sin.......


Very good post indeed.

I don´t drink alcohol at all, after being close to become an addict. I have been run over by a drunk car driver when I was 16 and spent 7 weeks in hospital as a result. So I´m not in favor of in toxicated people. However we have to face the fact that they are ill.

On a side note: I spent a few overnights in the UK and given the amount of drunk people (especially youngsters) one can see there, I just wonder where they get enough sober ones to take blood samples in the morning. Heavy flat rate drinking is a huge problem for emergency services in my country these days. Time to rethink our position on alcohol. A zero tolerance also in cars is about time IMO.

[Will Hung]

I often wonder if we'd have won WWII if there were alcohol testing then ?

From the numerous books I've read those true heroes lived very much in a drinking culture. The beer was diluted though !

[chuks]

I don't think I am taking this problem lightly, just writing that nowadays it is handled in a surprisingly different way.

As to where I was in this, either a problem child or else a pious by-stander, I can call witnesses if I need to (they hang out on a forum nearby) but let's just say that I do know what I am writing about!

My teen-age daughter is at that happy stage of development where alcohol is still a delightful recreational drug; none of her friends have had time to develop a problem with it, I guess. (There was that kid from the village who hit a tree head-on, yeah, but he wasn't in her circle so that one doesn't count.) Sometimes I find myself telling her to take it easy, which she finds ever so laughable coming from someone she only knows as a non-drinker.

Here I guess I am just trying to show people looking in from the outside how aviation is trying to deal with alcohol abuse in a way that is humane but also protective of the traveling public. Take it or leave it.

As an aside: I lived in the East End of London, just off Mile End Road for about eight months. One quickly learned to stay off that main drag when the pubs were emptying after a big footie match had been shown! "Staggering, pugnaciously drunk" seemed to be the normal default mode then for the native Brits on show. My God! At least the drunks in Helsinki usually just lay there quietly so that tripping over them is the only risk.

[PanPanYourself]

Is it not true that the effects of alcohol are more pronounced at higher altitudes? There's less oxygen in the air and thus in the bloodstream, therefore reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the brain in much the same way that alcohol does. That's why people suffering asphyxiation due to decompression (or whatever) usually act like they're drunk.

3 shots of vodka are usually enough to knock me out completely for a whole transatlantic flight. Judging by some of my own hangovers I would say a 36 hour "bottle to throttle" rule should apply. You're risking potentially thousands of lives in the plane and on the ground.

I'm surprised none of this has been mentioned yet. Then again one doesn't know where to begin disputing Old Lizzy's nonsense.

[MagnusP]

In response to PanPanYourself, the problem at altitude is that the affinity between haemoglobin and alcohol is higher than that between haemoglobin and oxygen, so alcohol and altitude are a poor mixture and can exacerbate altitude sickness problems as you suffer from a proportionately lower level of oxygen in your bloodstream than you would sober at the same altitude. I used to work regularly at 14000' (Mauna Kea) and would avoid alcohol for at least 9 hours before going to the summit.

[NSYNK]

The limit is the limit is the limit. There is no excuse for being over the limit. In this case it would have taken 4 more hours to be under the limit, thats half again the 8 hour rule!!!

I suspect that this is a case of last nights alcohol not cleared, the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects but if he has had 8 hours off that is 8 units (approx) metabolised which is 4 pints plus another 4 units not metabolised thats 6 pints of medium strength beer.

I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever, so lets be honest, 6 pints on a night out is not a huge amount. Some wouldn't even be visably drunk on that. Way way too over the limit to drive and definately too much if you are flying early the next day.

We all like a nightstop , a bit of a room party with the cabin crew, it is one of the perks of the job but as someone said earlier the 8 hour rule alone is not enough. Work out how much is legal then add a couple of hours on to be sure, I know of one airline that has a 10 hour rule others that are 12 hours, all depend on moderation of course. In this case another 4 hours (12 total) probably would have seen him under the limit. Not saying that he would be fit to fly , fatigue wise etc though.

If crews see the 8 hours as a target almost, ie drink up to 8 hours and stop that won't save your bacon.

Having said that 48 hours is ridiculous, drinking alcohol in moderation while strictly obeying the limits is not a crime.

[airfoilmod]

Nice to make your acquaintance.

[anotherthing]

NSYNK


...the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects...
An incorrect statement and a very dangerous assumption if anyone decides they want to try to calculate when they will be safe to fly or drive.

Exercise, cold showers, coffee, food taken before, during or after alcohol intake does not affect the volume of alcohol in the bloodstream, or the reduction of it.

Alcohol will leave an individuals body at roughly 1 unit per hour, the exact figure fluctuates but depends on the individual. You cannot eat or exercise it out... those activities may make you feel better or more 'with it', but they do not get rid of the alcohol.

In fact it could be argued that if you have a large meal, your body is less capable of getting rid of alcohol efficiently as it is also having to digest a meal...

Anyone who is considering trying to calculate how long it will take them to clear their system should be very cautious.

Alcohol starts to disspipate as soon as you start driniking it, so even as you drink, you will be getting rid of some units. 1 unit per hour is a good base to work from, but don't try to work out to the nearest 20 mins or so when you will be 'safe'.

Use the 1 unit per hour rule and give yourself an added 2 or 3 hours just to be (more) sure.

[cats_five]

<snip>
lets be honest, 6 pints on a night out is not a huge amount.
<snip>


It isn't? You could have fooled me. I like a drink, but it would be a glass or two of wine, not a gut-bust of beer. And I don't mean a couple of 350ml glasses of wine either, I mean a couple of small glasses.

[FlyingCroc]

Sorry, I am not a teetotaler, and I also think we should have a couple of beers in the nightstops. If you would change the drinking limit to 24 or 36 hours in my airline there would be no more beer.
But 6 pints is almost 12 beers/units, you will need more than 12 hours to burn it off. I think 8-9 beers/units and stop drinking 12 hours before will just about clear you to be 0% at check-in. :eek:

[clivewatson]

thank god for polo mints and fishermen's friends!

[FlexibleResponse]

There is a lot of rubbish on this thread, mostly from self-opinionated, ill-informed half-wits...(did I miss anyone?).

But, I must say that I enjoyed the sanity espoused by the intelligent and thought-provoking posts from chuks.

[Exaviator]

The only way to relax and ensure rest on a short layover is:

(1) Drink alcohol.

(2) Take drugs.

(3) Sleep with the stewardess.

As the first two are prohibited by law it is best to opt for the third option. I always did. :mad:

[Lurking123]

Maybe I'm getting old. After six pints I would have a seriously fuzzy head and be reaching for the ibuprofen. Fly an aircraft after that? I don't think I would even walk the dog. :eek:

PS. Lizzy, I quite like the UK's "idiotic" regulations and am left thinking I would prefer the FAA's "even more idiotic" regulations.

[Old Lizzy]

Yeah so I was doing a bit of a wind up and judging by all the juvenile name calling behind anonymous "handles" I hit the mark. Some interesting comments though, especially the ones that use feeble logic to deduce I am in Americashire. (Sorry George III you have a lot to answer for when I get to meet you)

I don't condone the slightest amount of alcohol in the cockpit, or for that matter, behind the wheel. I am amazed though that I can be jailed for being at an alcohol level that does not permit me to drive a bus, but I would not even get a ticket if I were registering the same level in a car; and yes, I think the alcohol level for driving should be lower, with greater penalties in England - perhaps a look at the Norwegian way of handling DUI...... But the local authorities seem to be too busy spending my taxes checking to see if my garbage can is properly closed....we need more revenues to pay for all this oversight. :eek:

It's been raining cats and dogs here, and I am sadly grounded.....probably best to head for a cuppla beeeahs; mind you I live next door to my local, which is a very good thing. :}

Thanks boys! :ok:

Liz

[chuks]

How fascinating... A troll who proudly outs himself! Is there anything else you would like to share with your rapt on-line audience?

Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away. Next time better start by looking up "subtlety" in a dictionary.

I always wondered about this sort of thing, were these folks so desperately bored that they would find trolling worth doing? I guess so, odd as that seems.

Well, cheer up! I hear that they are going to re-make "Crossroads" That Benny, what a hoot! Meanwhile, yes, have a pint or two or three while you think up your next subtle on-line post.

[maxred]

I have been indulging in the posts, (pun), and am amazed at the variety of views.:eek: Not having been there, this individual obviously showed signs that brought attention to the fact he may have been drinking. A check was then carried out, and it appeared that traces of alchohol were present. If I drink, and then fly an aircraft, or drive a car, I am aware,that if caught, I will be punished. Remember the old 'responsibility for one's actions'??:ok:
Pilots everyday turn up for work, following the code of zero tolerance with alcohol. I am sure some turn up with higher levels within the bloodsteam, and take the chance. As always the preverbial s*** will hit the fan when caught out. Thats life.

[Scratch Pad]

How fascinating... A troll who proudly outs himself! ...........Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away.

So obvious that I think you'll find he was 'outed' several pages ago. Post #65 or thereabouts.


Cue lots of those who fell for it posting "I knew it!" :rolleyes:

[airfoilmod]

Too much notice to Lizzy. Troll or no, the discussion about safety is worthwhile. An occasional look and debate about something so important is always beneficial, IMO. Out of the Mouths of babes.....

AF

[chuks]

I am with AFM, above. I replied to the stuff I thought worth replying to. Alcohol abuse used to be one of my very favourite pastimes, you see.

What I thought of the fellow who put up the original thread didn't come into that. To start with "idiotically low" did sort of look like bait, yes... That doesn't mean I need to snap at that, does it?

[daviddea]

Wombat before you decide what airline to fly on you should check safety records. I believe you will find the USA has the best record in the world.

[His dudeness]

I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever,

I am one. And I´m a pilot for 19 years now. Sorry to spoil it.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Consider a general enzyme catalyzed reaction:

E +S -----> ES------->P

the rate of an enzyme catalyzed reaction is dependent only on the enzyme [alcohol dehydrogenase]concentration NOT on the substrate [ethanol--I hope:\]
this is because most of of the substrate is bound in a rate limiting ES complex and there for only enzyme concentration determines the decomposition rate therefor the reaction is ZERO order in Substrate and first order in enzyme;

Zero order mean that the rate is independent of concentration and first order mean that if you double the Enzyme concentration you'll double the rate:


Since the amount of this enzyme made by the liver is dependent on genetics it is true that individuals may have slightly quicker decomposition because they produce more enzyme but the how fast you process a certain amount of alcohol does not depend on the amount of alcohol consumed only time; this myth arises from confusion about the above fact..:8

PA

[OverRun]

Here is a blood alcohol calculator in excel - click the link and if you have Excel on your machine, it should open. Otherwise right-click the link, and save as:
bac.xls (http://www.geocities.com/profemery/bac.xls)

It is pretty useful for all crew (and SLF) if you're on a trip because even if you are a little dis-orientated from time zone changes, it'll give you a good calculation of bac without having to rely on judgment. Remember that the graph is % blood alcohol, which is not the UK ** mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.

Playing with the calculator, I can see how the ".. hours bottle to throttle" fits the reality of a 0.02% alcohol limit. For a 70kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Couple of beers = 8 hours
Bottle of wine = 12 hours
2 bottles of wine = 24 hours

For a 105kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Bottle of wine = 8 hours
2 bottles of wine = 16 hours
crate of beer @ 3/hr over 8 hours = 24 hours and probably violently ill

[williewalsh]

The self righteous ****e on here indicates that not many are actually in the business.
Crews drink on nightstops..fact. Some kick the arse out of it some dont.He did , and is punished end of discussion.
Stop the preaching bolox.
Id rather have had a pint too many (and be about 60mg) than try and avoid errors induced by a 100am report followed by a 15 hrs ulr flight followed by an MEl ridden aircraft approach to minimums , barely current, but cost effective.I know which one screws me up the most.
Not to appreciate that distinction indicates that most on here are opinionated spotters or evangalistic industry geeks.

[Guava Tree]

Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
We have to be reasonable in our intake of alcohol. Moderation in all things!
An effective alternative for stress removal, transcendental meditation, may attract even more adverse comment from the zealots on this thread.

[expat400]

Exaviator!

With today's stewardesses you'll have to do 1 or 2 in order to enjoy 3. :*

[Mahatma Kote]

Michale Birbeck wrote Drinking has never made anyone do anything better
In fact alcohol is a banned drug in a number of sports because it improves performance. The effect is on fine muscle control and is of benefit in sports like rifle shooting and archery.

Larger quantities impair judgment and gross motor controls, but for small quantities i.e. a glass of wine or beer - you will be a more precise operator of any equipment requiring delicate manipulation. However, I guess this doesn't include most aircraft control functions...

On the same theme, caffeine is also a banned drug in many sports. It reduces reaction time at the expense of precision. Caffeine is banned in sports like fencing because of the advantage it gives. However caffeine doesn't seem to be useful for aircraft control - and may even be harmful.

[His dudeness]

Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.

Yeah, right...I for one beat copilots to get rid of the stress.

Your advice is most likely a sound one, next time I fly 8 legs on a single day, I´ll help myself to a pint between every leg and I´m sure I will be grinning (aka stressfree) at the end of the day! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

And don´t tell me one pint a leg is not moderate.

[Michael Birbeck]

His Dudeness

El duderino, I guess your approach is the basis for that old saying that the beatings will stop when morale improves. :p

[Michael Birbeck]

Mahatma Kote

You are right but I guess I was thinking of ball games. :).

Question is how much alcohol is just enough before it all goes pear shaped . Very little.

[MagnusP]

Nahatma Kota wrote:
In fact alcohol is a banned drug in a number of sports because it improves performance. The effect is on fine muscle control and is of benefit in sports like rifle shooting and archery.

Remember the Canadian snooker player Bill Werbeniuk who was alleged to get tax relief on his lager purchases, necessary to settle a benign tremor which affected his playing?

[remoak]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "idiotic UA pilot falls foul of low UK alcohol law"?

[PanPanYourself]

Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
Quite frankly I am starting to lament the fact that I have to regularly leave my fate in the hands of the pilots on this forum. If it's so damn stressful that you can't handle it without drinking then you need to find yourself a new career. There are plenty of alternative ways of relieving stress that don't impair your reaction times. In aviation reacting half a second late can be the difference between life and death for you and thousands of innocent people. The large majority of aviation disasters are caused by pilot error, I would suggest all pilots keep that in mind every time they get in the cockpit. 3/4 of the drink drive limit is far too much, especially bearing in mind the more pronounced effect of alcohol at 8000ft cabin altitude. This guy should have gone to jail for reckless endangerment, full stop end of story.

[Mahatma Kote]

Michael Birbeck wrote


Question is how much alcohol is just enough before it all goes pear shaped . Very little.

Actually, and I speak with some authority here as a former QA tester and medical subject for breath screening devices (retd.), you'd be surprised.

In the units I am familiar with - % blood alcohol - The figures are typically, 0.05% for a basic infringement and 0.08% for a serious infringement.

For most people, 0.05% seems 'O.K.' and you think you are still able to drive, while with 0.08% you know you are definitely not safe to drive.

I guess here, but perhaps 2-3 pints will get you to 0.05% BAC. A lot depends on your body mass, fat composition, strength of beer, and time to ingest.

Studies have shown that for BAC of 0.05% you are as likely to have an accident as if you have drunk nothing at all. More surprising a BAC somewhere between 0.00% and 0.05% has less probability of an accident than driving tee-total. After 0.05% it all goes pear shaped.

Now these figures are based on accidents using motor vehicles, and probably measure motor skills and reflexes. They do not address cogitative abilities for higher functions - route planning etc.

Whether you can extrapolate motor vehicle BAC to aircraft control, flight planning, decision making is totally another matter.

[wheelbarrow]

I am always amazed at the self righteous claptrap that is often spouted on this forum! Mostly it would seem by those who have no real reason to be on here apart from some perverted form of voyeurism that enables them to feel they have some part in aviation.
How many accidents have been blamed on alcohol? How many accidents / incidents have had alcohol cited as a contributary factor?
The truth of the matter is that the levels of alcohol now allowed in pilots is not really based on any sound scientific facts or a history of it being a problem, unlike in car drivers.
The likelyhood of having a small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream having any effect on the safe outcome of flight is very questionable. The fact that there is no requirement for the total concentration required whilst driving and the almost 100% use of automatics means that any input is only required intermittently. This together with the fact that there is at least one other crewmember on the flight deck makes the likelyhood of an incident almost negligible. Judgement may possibly be not quite as sharp as the individual is capable of, but how often have we all operated when tired, stressed just fed up, when we know that our judgement and reactions are not at peak?
I do not condone drinking and flying, however I am often appalled to see that a fellow aviator has been sent to jail for what is often a small misjudgement in the amount of time it takes his/her system to metabolise the previous days consumption. It is this prurient attitude that ends up with a pilot being convicted of having what is considerably less that that allowed in drivers in UK, being sent to jail. Would a bus or lorry driver convicted of drink driving be sent to jail? I think probably not, unless he was involved in an accident with death or severe injuries.

Have a heart

[oldbalboy]

here's another example BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | Pilot banned for excess alcohol (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7968892.stm)

[Scratch Pad]

What is it about pilots and drink that fires up the more rabid element of this place?

I'm not for one moment condoning any unsafe practice but there's certainly an air of the lynching mob whenever the subject comes up. I wonder, do the non-professionals here register on trucker sites and berate them whenever a lorry driver is convicted of drink driving, being under the influence of drugs or raping a prostitute*?



* Dr J Clarkson 2008

[bartonflyer]

What the hell has "raping a prostitute" got to do with BREAKING THE LAW whilst allegedly doing your job.
Get real!

[Scratch Pad]

:rolleyes:

See that up there? That's the joke going over your head.

[bartonflyer]

had there been a :rolleyes:in your original post I might just have seen it!

[Duck Rogers]

* Dr J Clarkson 2008

t'was a clue.

[bartonflyer]

OK - OK - I blame the Merlot and rest my case :)

[IcePack]

In years gone by in the Air force it was not unknown for a pilot to have a pint of beer as a "sharpener" before flight. So maybe if you have just above the legal min blood alcohol you may have reaction times that are better than if you were below the limit.;)

Anyway in what other walk of life do you get sent to prison and loose your right to work for 10+ years for one mister-meaner. Surely mandatory treatment and blood testing that the treatment has worked would be more humane.

But I guess reading some poster's comments they do not have any humanity. Just a hate for the profession for some reason.:(

[DownIn3Green]

Nice save..."ALPO"...

[SLATS_EXTEND]

So, it's illegal for us pilots to fly with levels of alcohol in our system as low as .02% in the US. Most states, the drink driving limit is ......08%...

Now, I have no problems with that...As an airline pilot for 20 plus years and a professional, I will abide by those regulations.

Now, let's look at airline scheduling.Backside of the clock, disregard for WOCL cycles and fatigue induced scheduling that studies have shown, using scientifically developed data on sleep cycles, regualry produce levels of fatigue in pilots EQUAL to a blood alcohol level of .24%!

But, the regulators or SLF don't care bout that do they?

Well, maybe after all factors in the recent Fed Ex accident at RJAA are brought to the table, they might....

Regards,

Slats Extend..

[Nicholas49]

IcePack, with all due respect, there is no hatred for the profession, I think some people are just a little frustrated and tired to see so-called professionals essentially defending their right to have a drink before flying a commercial jet. Of course treatment and rehabilitation have their place, but the law is the law and a responsible job brings a higher standard of care. Is that so difficult? It's "misdemeanour" by the way!

[DODGYOLDFART]

I am sure we all know that the aviation laws regarding alcohol were not just dreamed up on a rainy afternoon by some civil servant following a long liquid lunch. In fact extensive research with both students and real airline/military pilots acting as test subjects went into measuring what a safe limit should be. Every factor that could have a bearing on the subject including fatigue levels, stress as well as quantity, metabolic rates, etc were trialed and tested. Whilst most of the research work was done in simulators there were a number of test carried out in light aircraft as far back as the 1960's. So there is not much point in arguing about the quantities of alcohol consumed or the timing of the last drink taken.

I believe that part of todays problem of public perception with drinking and flying stems (in the UK atleast) from the more relaxed atmosphere prevailing in the military environment in years gone by. From my own experiences in the 1950/60's I can remember many occasions when putting the glass down to pushing the starter on jet fighters could be measured in minutes. It was seen as being as some sort of macho thing to fly with a skin full or atleast suffering an appalling hangover from the night before. These self same pilots of course a few years later were driving our civil aircraft. Did there views on alcohol change much? I don't think so although I am sure they modified their behaviour somewhat in order to stay employed.

Now most of these old farts have gone and hopefully younger a wiser men have taken their place. So if flying it simply is best to not drink.

Cheers!!

[Bullethead]

For those of you who fly to Australia the same rules and limit are going to be applied as of next month. Yep, in four days. Be careful when you have a beer or two or other party concoctions Down Under.


Read all about it here;

CASA A&OD Testing (http://aod.casa.gov.au/aod/)

Regards,
BH.

[FrequentSLF]

Now, let's look at airline scheduling.Backside of the clock, disregard for WOCL cycles and fatigue induced scheduling that studies have shown, using scientifically developed data on sleep cycles, regualry produce levels of fatigue in pilots EQUAL to a blood alcohol level of .24%!

Are you sure you are not messing up with the measurement units?
In UK is 20 mg of alcohol for 100 ml of blood. Not 0.02%.

A blood level of 0.24% compares to 20 mg of alcohol for 100 ml of blood.

[bubbers44]

Try again, that is 20%

[flown-it]

well in my day it was always no smoking within 12 hours and no drinking within 50 feet. Always stuck to that rule and not scratched an aircraft in 47 years:rolleyes:
As dodgyoldfart says, in the military of the 60s it was not uncommon for a pilot to have a little sharpener prior to a trip. As for a night deck landing, several swift ones post flight regardless of what time the morning push was scheduled was de rigueur! From HM's service to civvy street was a natural progression and does a leopard change it's spots? Hardly! So the nearest watering hole for a debrief post flight just comes naturally. There but for the grace...etc. Glass houses and stones comes to mind!

[FrequentSLF]

Try again, that is 20%

I think I have corrected it....you know my school days are long gone...but my point is that fatigue cannot be 10 times the max level of alcohol...just want to make sure that is that slats_extended meant.

[bubbers44]

I just spent 30 minutes researching gram vs litre. To save another US metric dummy like me, 1 gram = 1mm. 1,000 grams = 1 litre for water in standard conditions. So limit in US would be .02% ba.

[captjns]

Well... the former Air Force Major was deemed to be above the legal limit according the ME. Perhaps he quit the boozing at the time prescribed by the UAL FCOM/GOM/FOM. But was not legal flight due to the concentration of alcohol in his blood. Was this first time he rolled the dice?

Perhaps the Major will overcome his personal problems with the support of his family, and friends and sound therapy and rise to a better level.

I hope the lad has a job to come back to after all the dust settles.

[FrequentSLF]

I just spent 30 minutes researching gram vs litre. To save another US metric dummy like me, 1 gram = 1mm. 1,000 grams = 1 litre for water in standard conditions. So limit in US would be .02% ba

Yup...I think we have the same figures.
Now how can you explain that fatigue can be comparable to 0.24%? (ten times more than the legal limit)...if so you could not even stand!
FSLF

[brucey12401]

Listen your a dippy bird arent you really Lizzy, you get a ticket in a car and jail for being over the limit on a plane, did it ever occur to you that you dont carry 400+ passengers at 37,000ft in a pressurised tin can when your in a car?, where lets face it if something goes wrong you chances of survival are slim, but should something go wrong I would want to make sure the pilot knew what he was doing and NOT over the limit, you should not drink and drive a car full stop and you should not drink and fly a plane end of! its dangerous and stupid, that pilot should have been sentenced to LIFE for en-dangering the lives of all those passengers and crew, were not talking a 4 seater family estate car are we! Think before you open your mouth.

As for get real england, lol well at least our nation is clever enough to realise drinking and flying is not a good mix!!! same with drinking and driving!

[skridlov]

"Now, let's look at airline scheduling.Backside of the clock, disregard for WOCL cycles and fatigue induced scheduling that studies have shown, using scientifically developed data on sleep cycles, regualry produce levels of fatigue in pilots EQUAL to a blood alcohol level of .24%!"

SLF only commenting but fairly well-informed about the behavioural aspects of alcohol consumption.

Interesting post about the performance-depleting impact of some (legal) duty-cycles. If these have such a negative effect on performance, what happens when you add ANY alcohol to the bloodstream an individual thereby affected?

To me this is an observation that reinforces the need for aircrew to treat alcohol with even more caution than the legal minima.

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Dear Frequent SLF.

I am not using the percentage wrong, I am using the units that are used in the US and am sorry I did not include those in my original post...
1 percent BAC by volume 1/100 (%) g/mL = 1 cg/mL 9.43 mg/g, 217.4 mmol/L United States

This differs from the limits that are used in the UK..
1 basis point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_point) BAC by volume 1/10,000 (‱) g/mL = 100 μg/mL 94.3 ppm, 2.17 mmol/L Britain

And yes, I have flown approaches in the past so fatigued that I when I got off the jet, I bet I couldn't walk a straight line...So, the study I cited in my original post were algorithms cited via a multi year US Air Force study that studied pilots under various levels of fatigue and colated those by testing their actions on a set of variables while simutaneosly testing individuals with various levels of alcoholic intoxication and codifying the data...That is my simple minds explanation of the study :) And yes, most can stand and walk in the US with a .24 BAC level...Folks have been drink driving at .38!

But, let's not take that high of a level. My point (obviously lost) is that we are prohibited from flying with a BAC of .02% here in the US. But, there are most certain accepted scheduling practices that routinely raise levels of fatigue in aircrew to an equivalency greater that .02BAC... Yet, no one cares about that, yet...


Regards,

Slats.

[ceststupid]

@Old Lizzy! - I'm sorry but he's very near the driving limit...so that would be to say he's probably just stopped drinking...Being on a UK stopover from the USA induces alot of Jet Lag...I would only just be able to fly back...let alone have a booze party...then fly a plane

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Take very great care if you are operating to and from or within Australia after April 1/09.

That's when the new Drug and Alcohol rules start, and the alcohol limit is 0.02 (compared to 0.05 for driving) and it applies to anyone airside or anyone with a "safety related" job landside.

The list of drugs tested for can be seen on the CASA web site, many cold medicines are going to be a problem, as will analgesics that contain any codein, which can linger for many days in the system, after the last dose.

There will be random breathalyser/drug teams around the country from now on, I would expect the major airports to be the first targeted.

See also the requirement for operators to have a company program, and the screening requirements.

Tootle pip!!

[manrow]

Old Lizzy, you started this debate.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion of "idiotically low UK alcohol law"?

[bubbers44]

20mg in 100ml is the same as the .02% THE US has. In the US it means you can't complete your flight and have to deal with the company because FAA has a .04% limit which is their standard for alcohol abuse. .04% is the legal limit.
\
All pilots have to very careful in the following months because what was ok for the last decade or more isn't ok now. We all loved those hot tub parties with the FA's so hope this doesn't diminish this wonderful career one step lower.

I loved those parties. What is flying going to be without them. Borrrrring.

Unfortunately in the UK and Australia now at .02% you have violated the law and could go to jail. You could drink for another hour and still drive though. That will probably change soon too.

[Old Lizzy]

"Unfortunately in the UK and Australia now at .02% you have violated the law and could go to jail. You could drink for another hour and still drive though."

QED!! :D:D:D

[captplaystation]

Well, the mods removed my last post, so this one will probably have a small audience too.
At the end of the day, having lived through the "era" ( I digress, but show up for my DC9 course, meet TC in departures "you have bought your allowance haven't you ?" get on aircraft to fly to AMS - plastic bags stuffed full of booze. "OK Chaps, briefing in my room, bring your bags". Bags now less full. . . phew :zzz: "OK, see you in the lobby in 4hrs"
First Sim session a dream, how easy. . . next one. . . . jeez I am much too sober. ) I think that, and several hundred subsequent "night-stops" ,give me some qualification to speak.
First and foremost, one's judgement is undoubtedly impaired by alcohol.
However, and it is a BIG however, fatigue, being stupid, having an argument with your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend (or any number between 1 & 3 of the preceding) getting old, having a headcold & working for a company with a draconian attitude to "sick -days", working for a company that fails to respect the principle of /or just generally suffering from, industrial/disciplinary problems etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there are a thousand reasons for exercising "less than optimum" judgement. . . . it's just that this one is easier than all the others for the jerks that regulate our lives to deal with. (or rather to deal with us because of :hmm: )

[manrow]

Strikes me that "idiotically low UK alcohol law" is now being adopted by other nations too; so it cannot be idiotically low!

[bubbers44]

It probably doesn't matter what level they use, .02, .04 or .08% because airline accidents almost never are affected by these B/A standards. It might look good in the newspaper that countries are improving air safety but statistics show that drugs and alcohol are not the problem. Elizabeth Dole started this whole thing when she was in charge but after millions of dollars worth of testing and some cancelled flights because nobody could find a medical facility open on a Sunday to do the random test, nothing was accomplished.

[Bally Heck]

Of all the aircraft accidents, in all the world, can anyone tell me of an accident of a public transport aircraft which involved drunken pilots?

[Longhitter]

The most recent one was an Itek Air 737 which crashed on August 24, 2008.

It does happen.

[bubbers44]

I looked at the NTSB report on that crash along with 4 pages of discussion here and it just looks like CFIT. What makes you think it was alcohol related? They had a pressurization problem at 10,000 feet so returned, went around in VMC conditions then crashed on the second attempt at night 3 miles short.

[Sparelung]

I attended a lecture a couple of weeks ago by the man that actually did the work on the drink-fly limit (Professor Charles Billings). He said that at the limit for drink-driving in the UK, pilots flying real planes made mistakes that, unsupervised, would likely have led to catastrophic failures and probable crashes. That work was done in the 1960s, and the limits still stand today for very good reason.

For MagnusP - just for information, alcohol has no affinity for binding to haemoglobin, so isn't a competitor for oxygen even at altitude.

[MagnusP]

Sparelung: Odd that; it was in a study by a Dr Peter Foster of Liverpool university on Working at Altitude, commissioned when the UK was setting up the UK Infrared Telescope in Hawaii, and where I worked many times over my years with the research council.

Thanks for the correction; I must go do some reading. :ok:

[Frangible]

Old Lizzy, who are you to spare Mr Jefferson Inman's blushes?

Oh dear, I blurted the name which is in every tabloid newspaper (with a fine close-up photograph in the Mail) and is clearly known to the police, the airline, BAA, his employer, and probably his wife.
Are you seeing no evil today?

[Longhitter]

Sorry, mixed up two crashes there...

It was an Aeroflot Nord 737 in September 2008. Captain was confirmed intoxicated.

[Munnyspinner]

On the other hand, is it really that much of a scarifice to avoid having any alcohol to drink 8 hours before a flight? 8 hours bottle to throttle is a fair rule of thumb, if your going to have anything more that a galss of wine or two then leave it longer.

Truthfully, if you can't have a night or two without needing a drink you probably have a problem that needs dealing with - I know this might sound extreme but, if your job depends on it why would you risk getting caught?

Poor guy, but you have to ask - was this a one off? If so, why did he chance it? And, if not then perhaps it was the right result.

I know this sounds pretty unsympathetic but the rules were brought in for a reason.

[manrow]

Absolutely right Munnyspinner!

This thread has built up momentum on the premise that the poor little UA pilot had made an unfortunate and unintended mistake. Really?

I doubt that, as anyone involved in aviation and the sporadic hours we work is very conscious (or should be) of when rest is vital for example and when alcohol must cease.

I admire the moves that UA management made to 'rescue' their pilot and hope they are successful in drying him out, but until that is confirmed I will always suspect that someone who plays with the regulations in this way is a liability to aviation.

[Effluent Man]

I regularly drink and drive.Let me qualify that,I have either two pints of 3.6% beer or a half bottle of wine with a full meal over a three hour period. Given my size (6'2 16stone) that most likely means that when I drive I am around half the 80mg limit,leaving a large margin for error.

When I drive in this condition I am aware that I am judgement impaired.This doesn't mean dangerous because on those occasions I drive more slowly and carefully and am aware of my lower limitations.

I have taken part in competitive motorsport.If I took to a racetrack in this condition I would be unable to replicate my cold sober performance.I would either have to settle for two or three seconda a lap slower or I would make an error and spin off.

Flying isn't the same.If you try to drink and fly there is a very good chance that something much worse will happen.20mg is sensible as long as you leave that same margin for error,effectively half a pint or a small glass of wine or a single measure.

[THE POINTY END]

Some number of years ago I worked for the met dealing with driving offences, including drink drive. We had the old intoximeter in the station, and one lunch we went to the pub (as norm) and after 2 pints of the black stuff (4.1%) came back and did the test. It went straight to green, so therefore I will drink 1-2 pints of equivilant and drive. If the law was zero,then I wouldn't touch a drop. I spoke to a retired chap a few weeks ago who was involved in this drink fly issue with his old company. He said that the 20mg was the limit, but that is the lowest reading the machine can register. Could anyone tell me if that's correct?

[The Beer Hunter]

He said that the 20mg was the limit, but that is the lowest reading the machine can register. Could anyone tell me if that's correct?

Now where have I seen that before? Could it perhaps have been in this thread? :rolleyes:

[Munnyspinner]

I will sound ike a killoy - which I am not. But the message here is simple.

If your job depends on it , why get into that grey area between zero and just under the limit? Duty rosters are such that you do get plenty of down time when you can enjoy a drink along with your mates. But, if you can't plan ahead sufficiently well as to avoid reporting for duty with any alcohol in your bloodstream then you either have a problem or you don't care.

Actually, in 99% of cases I would expect most professionals to demonstrate capability to fly an aircraft even when over the limit and at the limit for driving - albeit impaired. This doen't justify anything.

If you are being paid for your professional skills and judgement then please don't expect any leeway if you turn up with these abilities in any way impaired through use of alcohol or drugs. It is not fair to anyone else.

Hopefully this is urban myth but I heard a story about a senior F/O who had a night on the tiles in HK. His crew had to smuggle him onboard the next day and he didn't actually 'surface' until the flight was airborne - I hope these days are well in the past and doubt that such nonsense could (if it ever actually did) occur again now.

[Flintstone]

ichenel

Just how much of this thread did you read before posting? How much research did you do? Any? None? The last page?

There are a number of reasons why a zero limit is not applied and none of them so that we who fly for a living can have a quick snort before putting the uniform on. Uninformed rants and calls for hanging contribute nothing and annoy those of us with a real interest (not to mention the moderators).

The wannabee section is thataway >>>>>

[Me Myself]

Its a great responsibilty and you need to be at your optimum mental state

Ichinel...........I think you need a drink or....................ten. Loosen up mate and go and get laid. It seems this is what your self rightousness needs. Blow your nose by the way !!

Good Gracious me !! What a load of pontifying old farts on this site.
yeah, some guys get caught the hand in the ...pint and that's not what I would recommend doing but remember this bearded guy some 2000 years ago...................he who hasn't sinned.............bla bla bla.
I absolutly resent selg rightous little punks like you whith experience close to........well zippo stranded on some God forsaken lump of sand who feel they can voice this kind of black and white idea. How much does your experience weigh in comparison to this guy's ??? Feather light mate !!
Try to build up some hours on a real aircraft and then have a say.
Whatever the reason, when one day where, let's hope not, you've made it flying big planks and feel the cold of the blade on your neck cuz you've screwed the pooch. You might want to reconsider then !!

[Nicholas49]

Me Myself, sorry to point this out, but with every post like the one you wrote, you just erode what little respect anyone has left for your profession. Act like a professional. Behave like a professional. Write and speak like a professional.

I guess you're the same person who moans about your poor terms and conditions on another thread. Until you can see the total hypocrisy in your views, you will get nowhere. And here you are defending Mr UA given his wondrous "experience"! Well, I think a bit of good judgement might have been helpful, don't you? Clearly, the sensationalist previous post touched a nerve!

[pjbonner]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the pilots unions stance/limits on alcohol consumption prior to flight. I believe that in the RAF there was an old saying of "24hrs from bottle to throttle", was this truehttp://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon5.gif

[KNIGHT OWL]

The easiest and best way for pilots and FAA is to standardise the alcohol limit worldwide. Once all airlines and pilots are made aware there wouldn't have to play the guessing game. It can be very difficult for airline crew to sleep/rest with the different time zones that they have to fly to.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Of course, the fuddy duddy magistrates (with whom common sense is a rare trait indeed and legal training even rarer) were probably awed by having such a magnificent case in front of them and quickly dispatched it up the ladder with shaking hands.
I know a bit about this as I work in a court that serves a large airport and I have seen similar cases. The case was sent to the Crown Court because the usual starting point is about 12 months custody, which is beyond JPs' powers. The pilot concerned got off towards the lighter end of the scale for reasons that I can't comment on, but I must confess to surprise at the name of the judge concerned as he is known for dishing out stiff sentences. I have seen him give someone nine years for a failed handbag snatch.

Just to clarify something, the breath testing machines in police stations are not legally calibrated for the very low aviation limit, so suspects are always given a blood test and bailed to return later when the results have come back.

[Flying Lawyer]

Unwell Raptor I know a bit about this as I work in a court that serves a large airport and I have seen similar cases.
The case was sent to the Crown Court because the usual starting point is about 12 months custody, which is beyond JPs' powers.

From where do you get the 12 months figure? :confused:
Finnair pilot, Manchester, Dec 2004: 6 monthsRoyal Brunei pilot, Isleworth (LHR), Dec 2004: 6 monthsEmirates pilot, Isleworth (LHR), Dec 2006: 4 monthsThomson pilot, Coventry (Birmingham airport) Mar 2009: 6 months
FL

[rubik101]

Myself, I note that Brahms was well into composing the second movement of his great Requim at the age of 21. Liszt, was 21 when he met Pagannini and began his brilliant career as a pianist and composer.

Brahms and Liszt have a lot to answer for!

For those of you whose first language is not English, i.e. Americans, Ozzies, etc, the above mentioned are Cockney rhyming slang for 'pissed', meaning drunk.

Why do the elderly so despise the young?

[Unwell_Raptor]

FL;

No inconsistency, I think. The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth) of 12 months, less a third off for a guilty plea, and a bit more for personal mitigation will fit with the cases you mention.
CPS submissions and our Clerk's advice are invariably to send these cases up.

As for the quoted suggestion that these cases cause excitement on the lay bench, how does Flash8 think we reacted to an alleged contract killer we saw the other day, who faces eight charges including murder and firearms offences? Of course it was just another case to be dealt with by the book, and it took less than five minutes.

[jafa]

I haven't read all of this but I suggest those of us who have been in the sureal world of long haul aviation and thus know what we are talking about keep talking and the rest shut up.

And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.

[FrequentSLF]

I haven't read all of this but I suggest those of us who have been in the sureal world of long haul aviation and thus know what we are talking about keep talking and the rest shut up.


And you drop here, not even having read the thread and start giving orders? Professional with drinking problems are on all type of professions.


And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.

And, of course, you are qualified to make such statement!:ugh::ugh:

[Flying Lawyer]

Unwell_Raptor The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth)

Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

My concern was that you previously said "the usual starting point is about 12 months custody".
That may well be the usual starting point of 'a judge at Isleworth' but it is not the same thing as being the usual starting point and, as originally posted, inadvertently gave the misleading impression that there is some 'official' starting point.

The sentences I mentioned all came from items posted on PPRuNe. As far as I'm aware, together with the sentence imposed in the case which began this thread - 6 months suspended - they are all the sentences imposed upon pilots in the UK to date.


FL

[VS-Toga]

Try to build up some hours on a real aircraft and then have a say.

Well, I have a 'few' real hours.

I have no tolerance for drinking and flying. Alcohol is not a bitching betty problem- it's a real issue in the profession.

[NSYNK]

I did not say it was acceptable to drink six pints and fly the next day, i said that six pints is not alot on a night out.

It is not acceptable to fly the next day after a night out drinking, I thought I made that view quite clear in the tone of my post.

[cats_five]

Wether or not 6 pints is a lot on a night out depends who you are. A 33cl bottle of Tiger and 1/2 bottle of wine is more than enough for me. Even when I was drinking a lot, 4 points was enough. 6 pints (unless alcohol-free beer which IMHO is a pointless product) probably qualifies as a binge as well.

[Ripline]

Cue 10+ pages of pointless debate on alcohol + flying :ugh:


I make that 10 pages now. Can you all stop now and wait for the next "occurence", please?:D

Ripline

[manrow]

Ripline, you are not forced to read this thread if you do not wish to.

Perfect people who pontificate upon the inadequacies of the majority in a profession or the population at large do nothing to help those who may have problems.

This aviation industry has a better-than-most way of dealing with those who fail standards far beyond the many other vitally important occupations. Hopefully we do so productively and effectively.

Every time a clever devil comes along belittling the minority of those with problems actually drives them underground. Thank you ripline for your contribution?

[Ripline]

Ripline, you are not forced to read this thread if you do not wish to.


Understood, thanks.

Perfect people who pontificate upon the inadequacies of the majority in a profession or the population at large do nothing to help those who may have problems.


I'm not perfect, don't claim to be and I wasn't pontificating or passing judgement.

This aviation industry has a better-than-most way of dealing with those who fail standards far beyond the many other vitally important occupations. Hopefully we do so productively and effectively.


I'm glad to hear that. That's probably why I continue to use its services.

Every time a clever devil comes along belittling the minority of those with problems actually drives them underground. Thank you ripline for your contribution?

Not claiming to be clever, not belittling anybody. Perhaps you're confusing my simple one-line post quoting and agreement with a previous poster by overreacting, another trait I would watch if you're a pilot. Fully behind any efforts to identify and help those who sucumb to the pressures of commercial avaition by using alcohol, but the basic tenet is that any discussion of how much is safe before flying is a no-brainer. It has taken ten pages of posts from all sides of the same argument to get this far as indeed it does on every occasion that news items like this hit the headlines. The arguments are the same and just revolve endlessly. If this thread has stopped at 10 pages then my tiny personality and small body parts are content with their contribution. I do appreciate the irony of having to add this by way of explanation....

Ripline

[spike727]

Have you ever done an over water plus go 8 hours - time zones and maybe just maybe wanted to have a beer to help you get to sleep. I think no you havn't. I have and it is a B..ch. We as professional pilots no the rules and are so happy that locals are keeping us legal.

[Finn47]

Ripline, here´s the next occurrence for you:

Pilot 'marched off flight to Canada and arrested for being over drink limit' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5228314/Pilot-marched-off-flight-to-Canada-and-arrested-for-being-over-drink-limit.html)

[captplaystation]

Am I the only one "impressed" :hmm: :rolleyes: with the enhanced powers of observation being displayed by security staff these days ?
The level of alcohol involved in many of these cases would require deliberate and intrusive personal contact to be perceived methinks.
Of course the nasty vindictive jealous little jobsworth gobsh1tes employed in this `profession must be jumping up and down in glee at every one they shop with the equivalent of a half pint in their bloodstream.
I would hate to think it was distracting them from their primary task of avoiding the carriage of lethal toothpaste or mineral water. :ugh: