Why NOT arriving early?

[nelsonmadiba]

Can anyone explain why some airlines sometime do NOT want to arrive early to their DEST ?

I had 2 flights today (afternoon) going one to EGLL and the other one to EHEH who refused a shortcut (with my personal surprise) to avoid arriving too early...

can anyone explain why is that?

grtz

[FE Hoppy]

Arrive early some places and you sit on a remote spot waiting for your gate to become available. better arrive on time and taxi straight to the gate.

[Carnage Matey!]

In the morning inbounds to EGLL may have had a restriction on landing before 04:30 or 06:00. Alternatively it may have been ahead of schedule and the ground operation is planned around everything arriving on schedule. If you arrive to early there's no gate available, no ground staff available and you just get in everyones way as you sit on the airfield.

[Jobhunter]

If the planes come early at some airports the ground crew might be busy with other planes. So people might have to wait to get of,and longer for their luggage.

[deltayankee]

Sometimes it is airport noise limitations. In other cases it is because there might be no stands available and passengers are much happier in the plane than on the ground waiting a long time to disembark.

[Dysag]

Depart the Far East on a balmy night, after a perfect dinner outside.

Arrive Heathrow on a dark, cold, wet, morning at 5am.

No stairs, no ground support.

Why hurry?

[Min Drag]

Some airports have embargoes before which if you land you can expect to incur a hefty fine. These fines can be to the tune of 15K Euros so when you're bang on time to land when the embargo is lifted you don't want a shortcut.

MD:ok:

[mad_bob]

Certain airports, LGW being one.....If we arrive more than I believe 15 mins early on a regular basis then the airline is liable for a fine of up to £20,000. Seemingly a warning will be given to the airline first and then persistant offenders will be fined. I know this is the case at LGW CDG MAN...can only assume it applies to LHR too. It`s a bit of a grey area as to the exact length of time before one becomes an offender but company would rather we were on time than much too early...I understand if we are early because of ATC routing or a howling tail wind then its out of the airlines hands and not liable, that is also a bit of a grey area and clarity is being sought...:suspect:

[MaxReheat]

The system simply doesn't 'do' early. Late - no problem.:D

[cumulo-granite]

Early or late, it's off-schedule and therefore off plan. Early can easily be as bad as late and often causes the same problems. Most airports/handlers have a maximum planning window of +/- 15 mins. Some even less - especially in these times of non stop cost cutting.

:\

[News Shooter]

Somebody told me once a long time ago, and it's probably urban myth, but the pilots (in the US) get paid by the time on the clock and if you notice an extremely slow taxi speed they could be waiting for the dial to kick over another notch.:)

[mach 84]

if you arrive at frankfurt before 6 am local time you have to pay a penalty of some 1000 euro's, so we always try to land there after 6 am. sometimes atc is giving you a shortcut for final and all your efforts to be "late" are invain!
so if you come from far east like i do set your speed to arrive at least at
6:10 am, that covers for the shortcut atc might give you.

[bobwi]

Maybe getting paid per flight hour or... pilots on punctuality strike. Or the need to burn fuel to make sure the airplane is below its maximum landing weight on arrival if it is a short sector. Accept for the strike action, those are reasons for which we have refused shortcuts in the past.

[CR2]

Being paid by the block hour is common here.

As for an early arrival, some airports have handling slots.

[Love_joy]

My operator does this, but the constraints are not too bad and it does of course depend on the airfield.

In general, if you regularly operate off your schedule by departing more than 10 early, or arriving 20 early they will warn you. If you continue to operate off schedule they will then fine you. Figures of £15-30k have been suggested before.

The occasional slip up due to strong tail winds etc will be absorbed as a one off, but 'fully controlled' airfields will take a dim view if its regular. Being late cannot be helped in most cases and there is no penalty. My view is that its just a way of spinning up some extra revenue.

[42psi]

mad bob


Certain airports, LGW being one.....If we arrive more than I believe 15 mins early on a regular basis then the airline is liable for a fine of up to £20,000. Seemingly a warning will be given to the airline first and then persistant offenders will be fined. I know this is the case at LGW CDG MAN...


Can I just check how you know this .. particularly with regards to EGCC ??

:E

[nelsonmadiba]

I mentioned the word AFTERNOON as I`m well aware of the curfew being applied at some airports (see CDG or FRA above all),but I thought that during the day there were NO problems in arriving early,and thinking of all the ways airline try to reduce costs and cut fuel consumption nowadays I`d rather sit in an airplane for 10` rather than having it burning 10` more of fuel in the air,or am I wrong?

I didn`t know there were risks of incurring in fines in case of early arrivals....:eek:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BA long-haul used to get up to these capers any time of the day at Heathrow - maybe they still do? During quiet periods one would ask to hold for anything up to 20 minutes "because the stand isn't ready". To think of the lengths ATC go to to save fuel with direct routeings, "own speed", etc., but these guys would waste more fuel holding for no reason than my car would use in a year.

[Carnage Matey!]

Certainly haven't heard of that in the last ten years so I guess it doesn't go on any more.

[mad_bob]

42 psi...

Sure, it came out as a notac a while ago....it was deemed important enough to find its way to the crewroom notice board too...It shows all the "controlled" airfields...I can`t reacall how many, but the gist was most major UK and European Airports have this system in place. Ill check when im next in the crewroom.

[llondel]

To think of the lengths ATC go to to save fuel with direct routeings, "own speed", etc., but these guys would waste more fuel holding for no reason than my car would use in a year.

It depends on whether the fine for early arrival is greater than the cost of the extra fuel consumed. In the interests of being green, minimising flight times/fuel burn is surely good for everyone, although I guess if aircraft A is early and takes a slot, aircraft B gets delayed a bit.


if you arrive at frankfurt before 6 am local time you have to pay a penalty of some 1000 euro's, so we always try to land there after 6 am. sometimes atc is giving you a shortcut for final and all your efforts to be "late" are in vain!

Does a go-around count as arriving? :}

[boredcounter]

arrives too early, again it is very bad. Now all the plans are screwed, waiting for the lift to planned destination, in a no-smoking teminal, no shops now they are all airside, tired after a long haul flight etc etc.

[ProM]

If you arrive early and then have to wait for gate or luggage then Pax will blame the airline for delaying them. If you take a longer route or spin around the stack for a little while then pax will either not notice or blame ATC, and the pax get off thinking what a wonderful airline for gettingthem there on time and straight to a gate

[MANAGP]

42psi

I regularly ask our operations to get a new runway slott at EGCC due to strong tailwinds etc. It is indeed +/- 15 mins at EGCC.

[TMAPAX]

I fly in and out of EGLC - London City.

Which you will all know is a small airport with limited parking. Our airline dosn't want us arriving early. The airport chargers more for parking, we get parked remotely and one of our aircraft were air held for 30 mins.

Also early arrivles can cause a flow restriction, creating further delays.

coupled with the saftey factor of more a/c in a place inwhich it wasn't planned to be for another 30 - 40 - 50 minutes.

As stated above, there may also be problems with ground crews, baggage and handling.

I have arrived 20 minutes early before now and waited 20 minutes for a dispatcher to arrive to off load my pax.

It was more annoying and uncomfortable for my pax to sit on the ground, in the summer, with no aircon. LCY also has strict rules with the APU. When I asked to keep the APU running I was told no, you cannot keep it running for 20minutes.

[42psi]

MANAGP etc

I regularly ask our operations to get a new runway slott at EGCC due to strong tailwinds etc. It is indeed +/- 15 mins at EGCC.

In the interests of ensuring absolute accuracy I will talk to the chappy that makes up the bills and confirm either way :8


Must say it's not what I understand and believe the position to be and was clarified as not so approx three months ago by said chappy .. but I'll double check :ok: (and report back)



There are charging bands designed to encourage runway use at times when demand is lower .... maybe it can be the case that an arrival time close to one of those band limits steps the charges into the next level?


I've recently (approx three months ago from a dodgy memory!!) come across an inbound charter operator actually asking ground if they could hold on the taxiway for a few minutes to avoid arriving on stand too early as they believed they would be "fined".

That time the apron controllers (MAPlc) were quick to pass back via ground that such a claim was erroneous and saved them burning annother bucket of fuel :O


For those really worried about the impact of an early arrival you might find it's your handling agent that actually has the bigger problem.

Many's the time I've seen one poor chappy out there having to prepare steps/gpu/chocks/trailers/belt loader on a remote stand as he's the only one available and going to be the only one to actually meet the a/c .... arrive early and the poor chap might not have rounded up all the kit.
:sad:



ps .. edited to add:

do folks still get that old delay .. "late out due early in" ??

[deltayankee]

Many's the time I've seen one poor chappy...


You were lucky! I arrived early at one northern European airport and it was completely empty and dark at the gate. Nobody showed up until the appointed time.

[BEA 71]

The whole system relies on on-time departure and on-time arrival.
Early arrivals may cause long holds waiting for the gate to be vacant,
lack of loading staff etc.. There is absolutely no point arriving early,
there are no benefits, it only causes disruptions.

[Aeroengineer1]

Mad bob:

If we arrive more than I believe 15 mins early on a regular basis then the airline is liable for a fine of up to £20,000. Seemingly a warning will be given to the airline first and then persistant offenders will be fined. I know this is the case at LGW CDG MAN...can only assume it applies to LHR too.


This applies to some international airports in Turkey, too, including IST, AYT. The tariff is as follows:

The airports where slot allocation is applied and the implementation dates of slot allocation is stated in the “Slot Coordination Booklet” which is published by DGCA. Summer tariff period is the period which begins at the last Sunday of March and ends on Saturday at the last week of October. Winter tariff period is the period which begins at the last Sunday of October and ends on Saturday at the last week of March of the next year. The practices regarding inconsistencies that will be notified by The Slot Coordination Centre related with the flights subject to slot are as follows:
(1) The parking fee in the Tarif is applied to the aircraft which arrive and depart according to their slot. For the ones which arrive without slot allocation or do not obey their slot, the following additional surcharge parking fee is apllied:
(2) Aircraft which have slot up to 24 hours and do not obey their slot
(a) For the aircraft having slot of 2 hours or less; when they arrive earlier than their slot time, €2xtonnexhour surcharge parking fee is applied for the period between the arrival time and slot time and, when they depart later than their slot time, €2 x tonne x hour surcharge parking fee is applied for the period between the slot time and engine starting time.
(b) For the aircraft having slot up to 24 hours (but not including 24 hours) and which arrive earlier or later than their slot time, €2 x tonne x hour surcharge parking fee is applied for the period between the arrival time and slot time and for the aircraft having slot up to 24 hours (but not including 24 hours) and which depart earlier or later than their slot time, €2 x tonne x hour surcharge parking fee is applied for the period between the departure/engine starting time and the slot time.

[clearasmud154]

The Manchester situation may have had something to do with me... ! Back in the days before The World Favourite Airline had me doing nugget CLC turnarounds, it wasn't unknown for Zoom aircraft to arrive in Manchester shortly before they were scheduled to arrive in Glasgow. Transit stops of less than fifteen minutes were common until the airline started getting fined for it - upset the crew no end! The fines at the time, as people have mentioned, were rumoured to be in the £15-30k mark.


Oddly it never seemed to apply the other way; when the situation was reversed Manchester often sent us aircraft over an hour early... but didn't send load messages until after it got here... !


Sorry folks, went off on one... !

cam154

[42psi]

Sorry for the delay in responding on this :}


I did say I'd follow up and check on the egcc position.


I have recently discussed this with a member of exco and have been told categorically that there are no adjusted fees by MAPlc for aircraft who arrive early.

I explained that some airlines seem to think there are and that I understood it was possible that some are changing slots/flight plans etc in the belief that this would avoid increased charges.


The only " actual " used when billing is the aircraft weight. The billing is not changed by arriving early or late.


I understand that they will look at trying to get something to the carriers to correct this belief.




Having re-read MANAGP's post I'm left wondering if it's some sort of misunderstanding with the ATC process??

Certainly on departures I understand you'll not be able to get your clearence from delivery more than around 20 mins before your dept. slot as the flight doesn't "pop up" in their system until then so they'll know nothing about you.

In that case I can see why re-filing would work to let you away early.

I do hear quite a few "puzzled" voices who don't seem to realise that and can't understand why they can't get their clearence. Although ATC do always explain why if it's queried.




So ... you won't get charged extra for arriving early :ok:

[howflytrg]

From a company Notac:

By fully coordinating
both the arrival and departure slots, ATC services can optimise the flow
rates which should, in most cases, result in fewer slot delays. For this system to
work, it is important that the users (airlines) take reasonable measures to ensure
that their crews do not violate their allocated departure or arrival slots. ATC are free
to take sanctions against those airlines that do not maintain their allocated slots.
This can include rather hefty fines for persistent offenders.
In order to meet the requirements of a co-ordinated airfield, a crew must take
reasonable measures to ensure that they depart on time. An early arrival at the
destination due to strong tail winds or favourable ATC routing is acceptable providing
this is not a regular occurrence and providing that the aircraft departed on its
scheduled slot time. If, on a particular route, ATC note that an airline is arriving off
slot persistently, they will notify the carrier in the first instance. The airline then has
a finite time to rectify this issue or, eventually, face financial penalties.
With the above in mind, crews should note that the most critical thing is to depart on
slot time. A late departure can be tolerated but an early departure that results in an
early arrival will give cause for concern. Usually, one off events do not attract the
attention of the authorities and persistent offenders are given the opportunity to
rectify the issue prior to any fines being imposed.






The following airfields are currently listed as fully co-ordinated:
AGP
ALC
AMS
BRU
CDG
DUB
DUS
FAO
FRA
GVA
INN
LGW
MAN
MXP
NCE
PMI
STR
SZG
TRN
LGW and MAN are particularly strict with these procedures

:}

[42psi]

I've tried twice today and each time after having posted it disappears some time later .... I'll try again with the "abbreviated version".
:suspect:


OK, that last post made it clear to me what your talking about .. it was the mention of slot co-ordination that made the "click" in my little grey cells!
:O


Airport Coordination Ltd. is the body engaged by all the airports on that list to administer the process of allocated and managing slots.

They deal with the IATA slot conferencing/slot handback process.

As such they are required to operate at arms length and without favour to the airport.

That's why I couldn't understand why it was thought egcc was doing this and why egcc senior management say they aren't levying such charges.

So while in theory acting for the airfield they do so independently.

They do indeed have the ability to levy fines/remove slots etc. and are authorised to do so by the UK gov./CAA/DOT.

But .. the fines etc. are not decided/imposed/collected/allocated to the airfield.


If you go to their website there is a full explantion (google acl ltd) including the dates etc when the whole thing started.


I was around in the run up to this and know that it was as a result of some carriers allegedly abusing the slot system when they didn't get what they wanted.

If for example they wanted an 08:15 arrival into egcc and the IATA slot process actually gave them a 09:15 then they were simply operating to their original times and arriving early. Passengers were even being ticketed for the original times and not the cleared slots.



But .. I'm afraid your company notac's will be of little use if you happen to be a carrier who does abuse the system.


What happens is that your actual arrival times are compared against your IATA approved airport slot.


But... you have to be a very, very extensive abuser of the system to fall foul of this and actually be fined.

The regulations governing the process make it clear that it's only used for obvious and persistent abusers.

If an airline is believed to fall into this category then constantly updating ETA's will I believe do nothing to save you.

ACL will be looking at why you are (for example) arriving at the time you originally request rather than the time granted.


In a way I guess we have a win-win in that we're all "sort of" right :E


Yes .. you can have a fine imposed for constantly arriving early (or late) .. but updating your'e ETA en-route won't make any difference.

If you want it from the horses mouth so to speak then do ring ACL, the number's on the website for each airfield.

They're very helpful folks ... I know cause I've dealt with them over the years.
:ok:


ps .. having just read my post I guess it's not that abbreviated after all.... oops...
Here's hoping this post actually stays posted!