Artificial Horizon advise please b4 I spend lots

[dragqueen120]

I have a Cessna 120 1946 which has tit all instrumentation in it, whilst I like the aircraft for this reason it also causes me concern. I have often pondered about putting a AH in and it will cost about a grand (apparently) by the time ive done. I have now seen thet the new GPS (Garmin) has an inbuilt one but cant seem to get much info on it. Has any one used it? are they any good? I think id rather buy one of these than just a AH if they are good.
Thank you in advance:ugh:

[BackPacker]

You'll want to be very careful with using any GPS as your AH (or DI for that matter). Most probably the AH information is not gyro (solid state or otherwise) derived, but is simply based on interpretation of the GPS signal.

So, if based on subsequent GPS positions you seem to be making a turn, the GPS will display an AH/DI as if you are in a balanced turn. And if your positions are all in line with each other, suggesting a straight track, the AH/DI will indicate a straight-up horizon.

While this definitely looks good and may, in a pinch, even be good enough to get your way out of an inadvertent IMC entry, I would not want to be navigating for too long with this. And it's definitely not accurate/fast enough for an unusual attitude recovery in IMC.

That's not to say that adding a solid state gyro to a GPS would be impossible. On the contrary. But even the Garmin 696 and 530 don't have them. Or at least, so it seems from the specs. You'd have to go to a G1000 or other glass cockpit installation to get something like that.

On the other hand, I have seen several pictures of Garmins with this pseudo-instrument panel mode selected. I think at least anything from the 296 upwards has them. Why not see if someone is willing to loan you one of those, and then try them out? Particularly test its behavior in unusual attitudes and sideslips.

Another question: does your aircraft have a vacuum system? This will definitely influence your decision on what to buy. If your 120 has tits all instruments, I assume it doesn't? You might want to get a small electric-gyro based AH in that case.

Edited to say that this is the Garmin mode I'm talking about, in this case on a 196:
Garmin 196 GPS (http://www.transair.co.uk/product4.asp?SID=2&Product_ID=1163)

[Rod1]

I have a solid state AI, recently removed from my MCR and replaced with an MGL Enigma. It can be battery or aircraft powered and can be permanently or temporary mounted. It can be integrated with a gps (lead for a Garmin 196 included) If you are interested send me a PM.

Rod1

[gasax]

In the UK Cessna 120s are virtually all on permits, so you could fit the equipment yourself with oversight from your inspector. That means you could have a complete gyro panel for very much less than that.

Have a look on AFORS I just happen to be selling just such a set-up!

[Heliplane]

Or.....

Just go down to your local RSPCA and adopt a cat and two ducks (I'm not making this up - read this years ago in an old aviation book):

Cats always sit upright so just put the cat on top of the panel and fly accordingly.

Ducks don't fly in IMC so when you near your destination, throw the duck out of the window and follow it down under the clouds (the second duck is for the return leg).

Make sure the cat doesn't go near the duck or you might end up having to rely on an SRA.

[fernytickles]

It depends on why you want to an an artificial horizon. Are you finding that you have got into weather conditions which may be questionable? If thats the case, you need more than just an AH. If you find yourself in dubious weather conditions and for some reason the AH is acting up, now you're going to have to visit the animal rescue centre.

The G496 and 696 have "panels" as part of option for the screen, but you are looking at considerably more than a grand to buy either one. Then you have the running costs if you wish to keep it current. As someone else said, they are not based on the same information as your own aeroplane instruments are receiving, so would be a back up system. For instance, a colleague recently lost the AH whilst flying IMC. He had a 496 in the aeroplane and turned to the instrument page. It was handy to have, but he found he used the partial panel system more than the 496 to get to his diversion airport.

If I were you, and was lucky enough to own a lovely C120, I'd use the natural horizon :) and save that money for fuel.

[sycamore]

You could also try `googling` the glider fraternity/sites for instruments..

[dragqueen120]

its on a bloody cofa!?! ahhh

[dragqueen120]

cheers all, heres some info re the whys and what nots:

I am not planning on going into wx but do plan to go across the sea which as you know is as bad as having know horizon. also I think its generally a good idea, I havent had the plane that long and although I have an instrument ticket I do love the VFR side of the flying.
Its on a C of A so cant fit my self.
It does not have a suction system.
Top plane though for the money...comes complete with logbook 1 all through to todays and only has 2k on it in total. a minter!
think the GPS system is out, ill go for the electric type I rekon.

cheers again

[jez d]

DQ120,

I recommend you look at the standalone solid-state gyros, rather than electric, old-style mechanical ones (if you don't have a vacuum pump, that is). The new generation of solid state gyros tend to be around the same price (if not less), are lighter, less power hungry and don't topple.

One of the best I have seen, which fits into a standard 800mm panel cut-out, is the Dynon D10A. There are plenty of others out there however. Ones to avoid would definitely include the PC Flight Systems Egyro, which is completely useless IMHO.

Cheers, jez

[stevef]

You could also consider using a venturi tube to operate an artificial horizon. A simple enough conversion; you'd only need the venturi, a regulator and some tubing.
PM on its way shortly with UK supplier details.

[drambuster]

I have now seen thet the new GPS (Garmin) has an inbuilt one but cant seem to get much info on it. Has any one used it? are they any good?

DQ120 - you need to be aware that these GPS derived 'flight instruments' do not show any pitch information. It is really just the equivalent of a turn co-ordinator and so you would need to cross check the GPS VSI to give you the equivalent of an artificial horizon. (i.e it is really just a limited panel alternative).

If you do choose to go down this route then also bear in mind that you need to fix the GPS to the aircraft frame rather than mounting it on the yolk. The reason for this is that it is almost impossible to fly on a turn co-ordinator (or AH) that is mounted on your flight control input because as you turn to follow the 'horizon' it of course turns away with the yolk. I tried it in IMC conditions and it was VERY hard work :eek: (yes I did have a safety pilot monitoring the panel mount electric horizon !)

A conventional electric horizon would probably suit the period style of your 120 much better than the new solid state options. Bear in mind that these mechanical instruments do need factory maintenance every few years which will cost several hundred £pounds a pop. But for occasional use this is probably the best option.

However, if I was spending the money I would follow jez d's advice without hesitation and go for the Dynon. A great piece of kit that you could totally rely on even in the most difficult of situations. Dynon Avionics (http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html)


Drambuster

[IO540]

Bear in mind that these mechanical instruments do need factory maintenance every few years which will cost several hundred £pounds a pop.I don't think this is normal. Normally overhauls are done on condition. If it fails to erect you get it fixed. One UK contact for this is Pandect.

A vacuum horizon should last 10 years. An electric one should last considerably longer.

One can buy overhauled instruments for considerably less than new ones, especially from the USA e.g. here (http://www.seaerospace.com).

BTW, is there a website which translates English to text-speak? :) This one (http://www.madhousebeyond.com/?mode=txtspeak) is good fun.

I DNT THNK THS IS NRML. NRMLLY OVRHAULS R DN ON CNDTN. IF IT FAILS 2 ERCT U GT IT FXD. UK CNTCT FR THS IS PNDCT. VCM HRZN SHOULD LST 10 YEARS. AN ELCTRC SHOULD LST CNSDRBLY LNGR.N CN BY OVRHAULD INSTRMNTS FR CNSDRBLY LSS THN NW ONS ESPCLLY FRM TH US

[dragqueen120]

after much tought I am going to go with the dynon electrical AH which looks good.

party on dudes.

[SNS3Guppy]

Or.....

Just go down to your local RSPCA and adopt a cat and two ducks (I'm not making this up - read this years ago in an old aviation book):

Cats always sit upright so just put the cat on top of the panel and fly accordingly.

Ducks don't fly in IMC so when you near your destination, throw the duck out of the window and follow it down under the clouds (the second duck is for the return leg).

Make sure the cat doesn't go near the duck or you might end up having to rely on an SRA.


Close. Standard equipment involves a cat, a dog, and a duck, and a brick.

The cat lands on it's feet when thrown upward, but one must have the cat declawed first, lest the cat stick to the ceiling.

The duck is as advertised. Ducks do like wet weather, however, and cannot be relied upon to seek the best of flying conditions. If one loses track of the duck, toss out the brick and follow it down.

The dog is there to bite the pilot if he attempts to touch anything.

So far as GPS attitude indications, solid state accelerometers are available to provide an input reference, but I surely wouldn't want to rely on such a mickey mouse setup.

I'd question the need for a gyro in a Cessna 120, but then I'm a bit of a purist. If you truly feel the need to do the damage, then the electric one is the way to go...particularly if you've already got the alternator mods.

[dragqueen120]

yes, in an ideal world I would not like to add to my beatiful panel however the type of flying I do I feel it is a must. I am after a Maul though if any one has one for sale :-)

[Rod1]

You may find that this is more to your liking;

3*W.partsforaircraft.co.uk/


I can recommend Paul as one of the good guys and the kit is 1st class. Several horizon offerings available, including a 21/4” std size instrument.

Rod1

[gasax]

Hate to burst everyone's bubble. But with a C of A aircraft fitting a Dynon or Enigma is not likely to be possible.

There should be STCs and EASA mods for that matter for adding either an engine or better yet a venturi driven vacuum system but solid state uncertified flight instruments.... I don't think so.

Secondhand gyro instruments you might get away with - obviously no issue if they come with a JAR 1.

So I raised the permit possibilities because a C120 with a C of A is pretty restrictive in what you can fit.

[drambuster]

Drambuster: Bear in mind that these mechanical instruments do need factory maintenance every few years which will cost several hundred £pounds a pop.


IO540: I don't think this is normal. Normally overhauls are done on condition. If it fails to erect you get it fixed.

I agree with you that the instruments are repaired on condition - not to a fixed expiry date.

The reason for my comment is that I had a new panel installed in my aircraft by Lees Avionics in June 2004. The MidContinent Turn & Slip packed up a couple of months ago and the Mikrotechna Artificial Horizon (both electric) became unstable around the same time. The aircraft has just come back from repair at Lees and the bill worked out as follows:

1) supply overhauled turn & slip £573
2) UK / US freight charges for above £155
3) Repair horizon £1,347
4) UK freight for above £24
5) Four hours labour at £56 ph net = £258
Total: £2,357 (all inc VAT)

If we had a solid state Dynon I don't believe there would have been any repairs necessary after less than five years !

I think DQ120 has made the right choice. It may not look 'right' in a 120 but he can always take it out when he sells on . . . . and maybe replace it with a period wind up clock which would look the part ! :)

[Rod1]

gasax

Good point! My C120 was on a permit, so I forgot the C of A bit!

Rod1

[Fujiflyer]

jez d, why do you not recommend the eGyro modules? I was considering buying one, to interface with a tablet PC or some such thing. Was it with regard to any eGyro version, in particular?

The Dynon unit looks very nice but I was looking for a module to interface to a PC rather than all enclosed. Admittidly the screen on the Dynon is superb (sunlight readable) however I want something which is "portable."

Heliplane, can you not collect the duck once you've landed and reuse him for the return flight instead of having to take one duck per approach, in IMC?

Thanks, Fuji :ok:

[RatherBeFlying]

If fitting a Dynon to a CofA a/c, it may be possible to simply leave in the old instruments and tee the Dynon into the existing static and pitot tubes.

[Rod1]

I have an eGyro module which I used as my AI for about 100 hours flying. It performed fine, but the display I used washed out in sunlight, which was a problem in haze. I replaced it with an MGL Enigma, which also replaced my GPS and engine monitor. If anybody is interested in my eGyro, I can easily demonstrate it working!

Rod1

[Fujiflyer]

Rod1, which one was that? I am considering buying one of their modules and interfacing it to a PC (laptop), using a sunlight readable LCD for the display.

[jez d]

Hello Fujiflyer,

Apologies for not replying sooner, have been in IT blackout mode for a few days (quite pleasant actually).

The issue I have with the egyro is two-fold.

First, for sailplanes in particular, they are potentially dangerous IMHO - I have been told that in sustained turns they get 'confused' and have a habit of reverting back to straight and level flight indication. Not something I would want to have to rely on to get me out of IMC.

Second, I have seen a number of these with blemished LCD screens, making them unreadable after just a few months of use.

I believe PC Flight Systems are working on the problems and have re-written the software, but for now I remain sceptical about their effectiveness.

cheers, jez

[aprildavy]

Could I strongly recommend that you fit, as a minimum, a turn and slip, if you can't afford a horizon. It is perfectly possible to fly safely for a limited period of time on the T&S in cloud or poor viz, and this is taught in the limited panel section of the IMCR.

Having lost control after inadvertently entering cloud on a home built without even a turn and slip, I cannot over emphasise the importance of at least a T&S

[aprildavy]

More...
Or should I say a turn coordinater. The problem when I lost control in cloud was that I couldn't tell which way the plane was turning. It was turning so fast that the magnetic compass was all over the place. I didn't know which way to turn the ailerons, one was the correct way, the other would be to invite disaster. Fortunately I throttled back and the plane stabilsed, and then I descended through cloud. I had been flying along in sunny hazy weather, and then all of a sudden, it was no longer haze. I strongly urge you to fit a basic T&S. Even if you never need it, the next owner of your plane might. I did fly to France over the channel in the same plane (without any gyro instrument) and it was difficult at certain stages, because over the water, there was no horizon, just blue, underneath, blue above, and a white haze about 20 degrees above and below the horizontal, all the way round.

[aprildavy]

Sorry to on, over several messages.
The reason people say a T&S, or Turn Coordinator is perferable to a AH, if you only have one, is that the T&S cannot topple, and always shows you the correct way to level your wings. I would fit a cheap, or 2nd hand turn coordinator and spend the rest of the £1000 on flying lessons with an instructor, to get really comfortable flying the plane in poor viz, or with the foggles on, on the limited panel. If you've got your own plane, then you'll only be paying for his time, or maybe he/she will give it free for a few trips.
Having done my IMCR, and had the experience of losing control, I would strongly recommend if you don't do the IMCR, then at least get some practice with an instructor, or a safety pilot. It will serve you much better than any GPS - if you get lost just call on the radio for help. ATC can't help you if you lose control. If you think you may need an AH, given the flying you do, seriously think about more training.
:ok: