BA and Project Columbus III

[wiggy]

Here we go, including the usual BASSA b*****ks and posturing about pilots:

**********************************************

TALKS UPDATE 19TH MARCH
Mar 19th, 2009 by admin

Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.

A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots' budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions ("restrictive practices"; as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).

British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).

BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The "new fleet" would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.

Until now we have been unable to publish this "list" to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us.

What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of "Oh there's a new fleet coming but it won't affect me"; - it will.

Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet

A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).

BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.

It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years

Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.

Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.

Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.

No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.

A fixed hourly rate.

[wiggy]

Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay will be performance related.

Merit promotion.

No Seniority.

Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107 inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA website under agreements.
There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.

Preference bidding to scheme.

BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet, 1189.
Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.

Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions ("restrictive practices") from this list:
1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
* Details of item to be confirmed
7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
8 ) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work patterns.
11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no extra payment or restriction.
13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
* Details of Item To be confirmed
14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
18 ) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment - EF.
25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
27) Removal of telephone allowance.
28 ) Change definition of EF night duty.
29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions (switching roles).
30) No CSD on 757 EF.
31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze.

Now we have been able to share this list, you will see first-hand the scale of the challenge we face, there are no easy options available. This will require ongoing and extensive consultation between us, as your representatives and you, as our members. This is something you need to become involved in, right now and take an active interest, it will affect every single one of us, it's not even a question of supporting your union, it's a question of being involved in some really hard and far reaching decisions that are not going to go away.

BASSA and Amicus sections of UNITE will continue to work closely together to do our best to protect your future, we will not kid you that this is going to be an easy task but please be assured that we will be doing our very best for you.We have now told BA that we will not meet next week as we wanted to start the consultation process with you over the next several days. Talks will however reconvene on the 30th and then obviously we have our branch meeting at Kempton Park on the 6th April when a full and frank debate will no doubt be forthcoming.

[speedmarque]

So once again the pilots accuse the Cabin Crew of "bringing the company down" Sheesh.

We joined BA because they offered those terms and conditions and we get a FAIR wage for the work we do (just like the pilots do).

If BA now think we are too expensive then they shouldn't have offered those terms to begin with.

It is not the cabin crews fault what they earn, it's what BA offered and we accepted. It's called a contract.

To smash-and-grab our terms permanently when the downturn is purely temporary is opportunism of the first order.

Most crew would agree to temporary measures but would need assurance that when the economy recovered and BA starting making the profits it has in the past (despite our hideously expensive and restrictive terms and conditions :hmm:) we would get the money back.

Thing aren't just tough for poor old BA! We are not faceless cabin crew. We are real people living lives with families and mouths to feed. We don't need to be told how tough thing are, our cost of living has increased along with BAs. Everything costs more from eggs to bread to rent to mortgages. Why should we take home less pay when the cost of living keeps going up?

And shame on our "colleagues" who take delight in our struggle at the moment. It wont be long before you need our support maybe? Its a two-way street and we should all be together.

Remember, after you have landed the plane in an emergency its the other half of the onboard team that may have to look after you and make sure you get off safe.

We should be one team, shame on you.

[TopBunk]

It is not the cabin crews fault what they earn, it's what BA offered and we accepted. It's called a contract.

And contracts are always being revisited and rewritten. That's life and what is happening here. We would all like the changes to be temporary but sadly I doubt that will be an option in these times. The revenue the company earns is in sharp decline and the costs need to be aligned with the market. BA have looked at all areas and decided what is required and achievable by each area, hence different targets this time around - it is about survival of the fittest and still being in the game in 2011.

[wobble2plank]

Where is the 'shame on you' coming from? I don't think anyone 'delights' (your words not mine) in seeing terms and conditions deteriorate. Unfortunately, as TopBunk has already alluded to times change and contracts need to be revisited.

In the past BA has put CC contracts in the 'too difficult' draw. Now, when faced with an economic draw down the likes of which we have never seen before, coupled with the uncertainty of how long it will last, the 'too difficult' draw has been opened and emptied. Flight crew took this pain the last time the company hit dire straits. There is no them and us, it is just that BASSA has managed to hold on to its T's & C's a bit longer, well done. The flight crew took rationalisation to prevent junior pilots being made redundant. The levelling of pay cost many of the middle seniority pilots alot of money but as there was unity to protect our colleagues some difficult and costly decision were made. Hence, at this point we have very little left to give as the company has us on a rationalised pay scheme. Now they are turning their attention to the cabin crew contracts and, if the company is to be believed, the pain will be coming your way. There is NO 'them and us' there is no 'delight' in seeing this come but always remember before you slag off the flight crew, WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS ALREADY!

If industrial action occurs then the investment potential of dinosaur BA (due to the crippling unionised antagonism) will plummet. If the share price dips below about £1 (my speculation) then the company will be rife for the asset strippers. BA as a 'brand' is still a powerful market force and one that many asset stripping companies (Blackstone group?) would still love to get their hands on. IF that happens then your contracts, our contracts, any contract is worth nothing, nichts, nada. No TUPE as the company was insolvent. Either take what they give you or the dole queue.

We would all love to get our original T's & C's back, but lets be pragmatic, it isn't going to happen. Hence the best way through is to find common ground, give and take and engage without the 'lets bring the company down with our silo mentality' or 'but the pilots aren't giving as much why should we?'

Grow a backbone and engage as adults, don't let BASSA take you down the same route as Arthur Scargill which led to the death of mining in the UK.

[Da Dog]

Speedmarque I don't know what planet you are living on.......

Everything costs more from eggs to bread to rent to mortgages. Why should we take home less pay when the cost of living keeps going up?

Rents are down 6% where I live and falling. Mortgages are also falling, a typical 100k mortgage has reduced by £300, unless of course you tied into a fixed rate;) RPI is falling and so is inflation.

I don't think for one moment that BA want everything on their "wish list" as presented by BASSA, rather each "wish" comes with a cost saving tag.

You can also assume that with such a wish list, the company have thought about the cost of industrial action v some form of compromise, but I have a strong feeling they will get some of what they want.

Equally I have just spent the afternoon chatting with an HR director for a large travel conglomerate, she could see no legal basis for strike action over the setting up another new fleet, and she pointed to the old AML contract at LGW, there are of course some proviso were BA to try and "force" some people to join the new fleet, but like everything the high court may disagree:rolleyes:

[flapsforty]

People, this IS the Cabin Crew forum.

While a great many other people have an interest in what will happen to the T&Cs of BA cabin crew, this forum is not primarily for those who have an interest, but for those who actually are cabin crew.

Well thought out posts by non CC, like the ones written by wobble2plank and DaDog, are very welcome.
Doesn't matter if they agree with the CC or not, what matters is that they add something to the debate.

Sh!t stirring one-liner posts by people who come here merely to vent their spleen about current BA CC T&Cs, and whose posts add nothing to the debate, have been and will be deleted.

Do consider which forum you're in before hitting that send button.

[legandawing]

When you look at what BA think are the costly elements of the CC part of the business, as crew I have to agree. QRS for example must cost a fortune having crew in a 5* hotel when most other airlines have 90min/airport standby even on LH trips. I can understand why people want to hang on to their T&C’s but BASSA don’t help by creating a them and us situation. Didn’t KLM have a change in their conditions a couple of years back that gave cost savings? Could BASSA may be look for solutions rather than ways to block? I know that’s not going to make me popular with the union but surely the whole point of having a union is for them to work a solution and not send out emails like the one above.. or the one earlier in the year threatening to name and shame! Come on BASSA take a look and help us don’t hinder the whole business

[wobble2plank]

So, what has been given up so far by flight ops?

Block payments, lunch payments, destination payments, CAT turnarounds, lateness credits etc. All were lumped together to form a slightly increased basic. (Not the basic that the pension is based upon, that stays the same as prior to the levelling agreement). Variable pay was reduced subsequently to make it a smaller proportion of the monthly wage thus enabling better financial planning over periods of lean flying. Sector pay and a flat hourly 'subsistence' rate, leading to a more manageable monthly pay, less loss of allowances and no 'senior' trips to high paying destinations. Most of those trips are now bid for on the basis of good golfing. Leading to a much more pleasant and varied flying environment.

Seem familiar?

[flybee]

all am gonna say is :D:D:D 2 speedmarque

[beerdrinker]

Speedmarque,

An interesting comment from one of your colleagues on a related thread on this CC forum:

" BA is like semi retirement and even if any of the 32 proposals are accepted BA will still remain the best to work for. "

Care to comment?

[OzzieO]

BD That's one individuals opinion. He doesn't speak for me or the other thirteen thousand other BA cabin crew.

[Jean-Lill]

Instead of comparing c/c pay and working practices with those of the pilots would it not be more appropriate to compare BA c/c pay structures and working condition with those of c/c in other airlines operating similar routes? There are plenty of airlines out there for the comparisons to be made.

It would be intersting for you if you find c/c working condition and pay scales in other airlines that are far better than your own.

I wish you well.

[speedmarque]

Well I see my posts have been deleted, all the while offensive comments remain like "what planet do you live on etc...." Guess it's all about who you know on here as to what gets deleted or not :ugh:

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else.

There have been several reports about pilots intimidating crew and trying to bully them into accepting anything the company wants. People have been reporting these pilots on the basis of bullying and poor CRM skills.

Safe flying

[flyeruk69]

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else



:D:D:D:D:D

I'm not really sure why people on here are getting so wound up by this thread ? Especially when some of these people don't even work for BA and those who do are not all cabin crew, it really is none of your business !!!

and for those of you who think it is because they don't want to see the airline go down etc ,,,,,,,,,,,,, being vocal on this forum isn't going to change how the majority of the BA cabin crew feel at the moment and the course of events that will unfold over the next few weeks or months. In fact for those that read this forum makes their resolve all the more firm.

[Juan Tugoh]

CC terms and conditions, pilots T&Cs, Engineer's T&Cs etc, are all the interest of anyone who is a share holder of the company. CC payment and reward is not the sole territory of CC - it is naive to suggest so.

To take money from people is tough - as has been mentioned we all have bills to pay. But, savings still need to made. So, the question that needs addressing is how to move forward. Perhaps some of the suggestions with regard to flexibility of work practices etc may be the way ahead. After all, given that most of the crew tell me that they are reaching the 900 hour limit so they cannot be made to work any harder.

If there is a way to work smarter that should be encouraged. Given what is happening everywhere else in the economy surely retaining a job must be the prime objective of all who work for BA. The main bugbear of all this seems more to do with the company wanting permanent cuts and savings to cover a temporary problem.

I have a great amount of sympathy for all the CC at BA, times are really tough but those who will not change and would rather see the company go under are living in clown cuckoo land. We all labour under a very benign system at BA, I would rather see harsher T&C's to keep my job there than end up losing my house to, for example keep a CSD on SH.

[speedmarque]

"In fact for those that read this forum makes their resolve all the more firm."
:D:D:D

Well said, keep on bleating people, it just makes us stronger in our resolve to keep what's fair. We will lose some of our terms and that's fine but we will not be bullied by others.

The fact that our terms and conditions wind others in the company up just makes me smile even broader. ;)

[aar4n5]

LHR WW and LGW Fleet both work to 900 hours per year so any costs savings made by making crew work harder will be offset by having them grounded for 2/3 months of the year because they have reached to 900 hours before the rolling 12 months is up.
However Eurofleet only seem to manage on average 500 hours a year, so looking logically at cost savings the only option seems to be to make eurofleet crew work closer to the 900 hours. Another 400 hundred hours per year from crewmembers would generate significant cost savings.

Although cost savings could be made from other fleets ie: removing crew members off longhaul aircraft this effects the level of service given onboard and with flights crewed to the bare minimum anyway this would have a significant negative effect on the BA business plan to be a 'Global Premium Longhaul Airline'.
Having a 'Cabin Service Director' on a single aisle aircraft is just to operate shorthual services and having above minimum crew on the A320 series aircraft can no longer be justified.

[TheKabaka]

so looking logically at cost savings the only option seems to be to make eurofleet crew work closer to the 900 hours. Another 400 hundred hours per year from crewmembers would generate significant cost savings.

Its certainly 1 option, BA have identified about 30 others you seem to have missed!

[Da Dog]

Perhaps speedmarque the posts were removed because they fell under the "one liner wind ups" as described by one of the moderators. I and others did try and apply some rational explanations at the time, but they too got removed.

I am sure that those pilots who have been reported are quaking in their boots for arguing IFCE policy, and for adopting bullying and poor CRM skills. I wish I had a UK£ for every time I heard Cabin Crew level that accusation, I would be a very rich man.

If you don't like the rational arguments put forwards here on Pprunne, you can always go back onto the BASSA forum for a bit of "head in the sand blue sky thinking" I'm just glad its the same old same old people posting the same old rhetoric time and time again............ and as for throwing good wine down the sink then boasting about it:ugh::ugh::rolleyes:

[Human Factor]

I am sure that those pilots who have been reported are quaking in their boots...

This goes back to BASSA's "name and shame" policy which they don't seem to consider to be at odds with the UK Data Protection Act.

I'm curious. Who are those pilots being reported to? I ask because I guarantee the Flight Ops managers won't give a monkeys. IFCE have no remit regarding pilots and BASSA is cabin crew union.:confused::confused::confused:

[OzzieO]

If cabin crew level that accusation at you on what seems to be on a regular basis going by your comment perhaps there is an element of truth in it?

[Carnage Matey!]

You'd be surprised how often the 'lack of CRM' complaint is bandied about. 99.9% of cabin crew who make the complaint don't actually understand what CRM is about, believing instead that it's something to do with the pilots not being allowed to disagree with them.

[Litebulbs]

If you are an employee and a fellow employee tried to enforce an opinion that had no relevance to the job that you were doing, after you have asked them to stop, then they would be bullying you. That is a gross misconduct matter, that if proved may lead to dismissal.

You may seek advice on this issue from your union, but the grievance should be lodged with the appropriate channels of your management structure. If your management structure ignore your grievance, then there are legal avenues that you may pursue.

No colleague has the right to tell you what to eat, or which religion to follow. They also have no right to lecture you about your terms and conditions and why you should change them, if you are feeling in any way, under pressure to defend yourself.

[Da Dog]

Ozzie perhaps you should read my post again..............

You saidIf cabin crew level that accusation at you

My post readI wish I had a UK£ for every time I heard Cabin Crew level that accusation, I would be a very rich man.

To date I don't think I have every known it leveled at me:ok: sorry to disappoint you:(

Rather I haveheard the phrase banded around in the galley and at the bar when Cabin Crew have heard something they don't like:rolleyes::rolleyes:

It seems the stock response, but by in large is meaningless and misunderstood.

Oh and the last time I heard it, the phrase was leveled at a CSD:eek:

I don't think for any moment that any of my peers have "bullied" anyone, or enforced an opinion an anyone over ICFE cost savings plan as described by Lightbulb (glad you enjoyed the bullying video).

If perhaps you wish to argue the point further, then perhaps all the GM and SM grades in ICFE, together with anyone that hosts an "in touch" session are equally guilty of British Airways Bullying policy.

[wobble2plank]

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else

The dreaded 'silo' mentality makes its unwelcome return.

Cabin Crew terms and conditions become everyone's domain when the terms 'I would rather bring BA down with Willie and his gang before accepting a drop in my T's & C's' gets bandied about. That makes it of concern to every employee.

BA does not run to pander to CC whims, the pilots, loaders, despatchers, checkin staff, IT staff, customer service agents etc. etc. all have a vested interest in the result of the BASSA spat.

As someone has already pointed out, there have been never ending pilot verses cabin crew debates here, they are old and we are trawling through old news.

Can anyone post a direct comparison of CC terms from another airline to compare with BA? At least then we have a baseline to work from and can discuss this from a common starting point. Remember, when Virgin crew threatened to strike over pay, Sir Dickie told them if the wanted more money then resign and go to BA.

[speedmarque]

Me and most of my co-crew are more than aware of what CRM actually is and how it can avoid accidents.

I am aware that the KLM/Pan Am crash in Tenerife was caused by a biligerent Captain and that his crew were relectant to challenge his poor decisions.

BM crash at Kegworth was avoidable if only there was better communication between all the crew.

The AC DC-9 fire that started in a toilet and killed many onboard could have been avoided with proper communication.

The list goes on..................

SOME PILOTS are challenging us on crew buses and in galleys about our situation at the moment. I have experienced it first hand and I am not alone.

Now imagine the atmosphere between the crew that these pilots are creating every day on BA aircraft and tell me it does not constitute a safety threat?

[wobble2plank]

speedmarque

Mystical pilot-only-understood CRM

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent so I will just copy and paste what I wrote on another thread with reference to CRM. Sorry to say that most of your co-workers ARE aware of what it means, and a discussion on a bus of factors involving ALL of our employment doesn't really amount to a CRM problem.

Generally, in an emergency, the workload for the pilots goes up a 'tiny' bit. With the great outside world impacting through vastly increased radio chatter and the requirement to 'keep the aircraft safe'. The spare capacity to deal with other outside influences not directly related to the said problem depends upon the flight crew on the day.

Good CRM enables the Captain to reliably expect a standardised information package delivered to him through SOP channels with a minimum of embellishment to assist in his decision making.

That is the 'emergency' scenario.

As for cabin problems, I fully expect that the No.1/Purser/CSD will have briefed their teams to follow the correct procedures and the correct lines of communication in the event of any disruption in the cabin. The CC are trained specifically to deal with that scenario in the same way that I am trained to deal with aircraft problems. I have the confidence and respect for them that they will do their job correctly and to the best of their ability on the day just as I would hope they have the same confidence in me. As such CRM allows delegation of those decisions and responsibilities to the No.1/Purser/CSD.

The CRM training we receive has always been together with CC and highlights the problems, workload and time pressures put on those in front and behind the cockpit door. It has always worked well and most come away with a highlighted sense of what goes on in the others departments.

CRM is not 'fluffy bunny' it is efficient use, direction and co-ordination of all crew assets. It is particularly needed to enable a crew to function as a cohesive unit in the event of a major malfunction where time, stress, fear and anxiety may try to overturn training, experience and professionalism.

Ignore it if you wish but, to be honest after flying for years before this 'CRM' stuff started, it is one of the few good things to come out of the Human Resources department!

Just my spin.


CRM aside, we are all still entitled to our opinions, if you feel so deeply that is should not be discussed on a bus, or that the debate is getting to such a heated point that you feel it could impact upon your ability to do your job then, under CRM, it is YOUR responsibility to say so. CRM covers all of us, don't just blame the flight crew for discussing something you don't like.

[Litebulbs]

Da Dog,

It will be part of a managers job to be cost aware. Talking to crew about the need to control that cost should be expected.

It is not a pilots job to do that on contractual issues. If a crew member wishes to seek your advice on contractual issues then fine. If you want to give opinion on the same issues, then fine too. If you are not asked, then don't offer.

[speedmarque]

Oh Wobble really :=

I'm not against DISCUSSING anything, it's the heated, bullying, Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance and attitude of SOME of our colleagues that we are objecting to and reporting.

It's not safe behaviour.

[wobble2plank]

Speedmarque,

That is not anything to do with CRM at all. A discussion about pending changes which, oddly enough, everyone is interested in, especially as we have our own changes pending, has nothing at all to do with CRM and everything to do with perception. If you want to argue then accept that people may hold as deep feeling for the subject in the other direction as you do in yours. Discussions (arguments) are never one sided.

IF you feel that it is too 'in your face' then that is a personal element to the discussion that you need to address and not to umbrella under CRM. It constantly amazes me that personal issues are bandied about as CRM when all it really is is a personality clash between two people. In the unfortunate event of an emergency I am sure that you're training would enable you to complete any tasks required of you without letting a personality issue come to the fore. If not then I feel that you need to address that issue before you fly.

Bullying is a totally different subject and one that should NOT be placed under the same heading as CRM as they are totally different things.

Enough thread creep, can we please get back to discussing what resolutions are available to BAs' wish list instead of inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

[TorC]

As Eurofleet CC I have, over the past few days, had several conversations with Flight Crew on this subject. I really am not sure where others are getting all this "bullying" thing from. The conversations I've had have been generally respectful, informative, supportive and constructive. If anything, these conversations have shown a wider awareness and understanding of the situation faced not only by the company, but by all of us employed by it than I find to be the case when conversing with my fellow Cabin Crew, be that face-to-face, or via other online forums. It would also seem that the figures attributed to Flight Crew by BASSA, are somewhat erroneous.

For those of you who wish to divert your energies into finger-pointing and harping back to fines/T5/Openskies etc I'd suggest that you really do need to focus more on the reality of here and now, and try to participate in a somewhat more constructive manner.

I'm seeing a lot of calls for "strike" or "work to rule" on other forums, but very little useful, informed or constructive discussion. I did venture a somewhat broader opinion and the result was far more harrowing than anything I've ever witnessed in conversations onboard the aircraft, on a bus, or in a bar.

[Juan Tugoh]

Speedmarque has hit the nail on the head, it is the attitude of some of our colleagues - on both sides of the door that are a problem. The "I'd rather see this company fail than give an inch on T&Cs" brigade are dinosaurs and are just as bad as any pilots being forceful in their views. Both attitudes need to be moderated - extemists on both side of the debate do not help matters.

[speedmarque]

..........I give you exactly the dangerous attitude I have been talking about


inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

:D:D:D:D:D:

Personality clashes (or however else you choose to trivialise safety issues) HAVE CAUSED ACCIDENTS. The fact that you casualise these worries me and furthers my point.

[Carnage Matey!]

In my experience the people who complain of a "Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance" are usually the ones who espouse the "BASSA are 100% right and I'll back them whatever" atttitude and have just had their arguments (or lack of) shot down in flames. The "bullying" threat is BASSAs attempt to stifle debate out on the line where they can't control speech like they do on their own forum. Can't have the troops thinking for themselves now, can we?

Speedmarque - you're still not getting the CRM thing are you?

[speedmarque]

Thanks to all contributors, I have enjoyed the debate/sparring.

For the record I am not a BASSA rep or even really a fan of how the union is run. But I am a member and believe they do an ok job most of the time. I dont agree to their "tabloid" style sometimes and do not blindly follow all they say.

To those carrying on the discussion, remember everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it disagrees with yours. Superiority and refusing to listen to others opinions says more about you than the people you are trying to ridicule.

Cheers

[wobble2plank]

Speedmarque,

nothing could be further from the truth. My final comment was in respect to this thread 'tangentalising' from the main discussion onto one of 'ohh I don't like the way they talked to me'.

I am well aware that the Staines crash was caused, partly, by a heated discussion about pensions between the pilots. This scenario led to the inception of a course which was designed to deal with 'stressful encounters' prior to flight.

As the course was developed it enrolled more and more subjects until it became a generic 'dealing with a flight from briefing to clear' course. As the HR department got hold od it they needed an an acronym for it and called it CRM Course.

My entire point is that CRM is just a small part of the entire 'CRM' course and contains a bewildering array of information pertaining to the safe conduct of the flight (Aircraft Captains primary responsibility). Hence, whilst it is not considered good to have heated debates before the flight between crew members, it comes under the CRM course heading but is NOT CRM, purely one of the tools given to the aircraft commander who, if it was them, should have known better or, if not, should, possibly have intervened and suggested that the discussion take place at a more suitable time.

Throwing the 'BASSA will report you' card in completely kills off your ability to explain exactly why these proposals are unacceptable. That would, surely, be shooting yourself in the foot. A bit like misreading my previous post and quoting in red. :ugh:

[Da Dog]

Litebulbs you could not have summed it up better.

Strangely speedmarque I have over the last 3 weeks or so never initiated a conversation on Cabin Crews current difficulties, the conversation has always been forced upon me, and the other flight crew I am with, and yes its been on the bus, and on the flight deck, and in the galley and in the bar. If someone asks my opinion I'll give it.;) But it won't be the sympathy you might expect.

In fact 1 purser was so enraged, I would question their ability to go flying!
It cuts both ways.

Perhaps your just letting the BASSA stereotype of Flight Crew cloud your judgment on what someone says and what they mean by it:oh:

After all BASSA wouldn't want to stifle open debate through fear and intimidation........ would they??



Interesting observation by TorC about the other forum, I have to laugh but if anyone dare argue against the "norm" or offer a rational point of view backed up by reasonable argument, they are immediately verbally stomped all over..... the best put down so far "when did you marry flight deck!!"

[Re-Heat]

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else
I beg to differ - it is the shareholders' cash, and how the pie is cut determines whether the remainder of the workforce actually has a job to do next year.

[PC767]

So we return to the message. Cabin crew will be soley responsible for the collapse of BA and the unemployment of all staff.

Round and round in circles.

Others, and not necessarily cabin crew, believe that Walsh will be repsonsible for the demise of BA. His unreasonable man gung-ho attitude, his belief in Openskies the airline, and his thrust that a permanent long term solution will be forced onto IfCE whilst every other departments will have short term solutions in place and subsequent reviews.

Alot of cabin crew I converse with are of the opinion that an immediate and temporary solution needs to found now. An agreement with a guaranteed reassessment and a return to normality at an agreed financial trigger. What is being proposed is very much viewed as an opportunistic smash and grab on permanent t&cs. I will again point out that these new terms were within the leaked 'colombus' document. A project which pre-dated the current recession. A project commenced during a time of record profits. How wonderful it must be for the leadership team that the economy has collapsed.

If BA is in a real crisis, rather than a protectionist mode, why oh why does the company still persevere with Openskies. Shelf the concept for now! Recently our Manager of Americas, stated, in defence of Openskies, it annoys Air France. How in turbulent times can a company motivate its workforce with mixed messages. We'll waste money to annoy the French, but cost cuts have to be permenantly made to our own crew.

[Carnage Matey!]

whilst every other departments will have short term solutions in place and subsequent reviews.

Who told you that, BASSA? I'm not aware of any department being told it can have a short term solution and subsequent review. The management want permanent savings from us all.

[PC767]

Oh come on. I'm a union member, not a union droid!

Managers will not recieve bonus payments this year. A temporary fix. This does not read Managers will not receive a bonus ever again.

Dare I mention, Flight Ops will not incur any increse in costs for the next two years leading to a saving of £Xmillion in year 1 and a saving of £Xmillion in year 2. What happens in year 3? I spoke recently with a decent chap who was and F/O and Balpa rep. He stated that this will cost Pilots money but Balpa were looking at a buy back in terms of compensation when the financial circle turned.

IfCE will have permanent changes with no buy back in terms of compensation at any stage.

Here is the crux of the matter.

Permanent changes.

That is why I feel I'm bankrolling ex-directors legal fees, replenishment of savings lost to fines for illegal activity, the turmoil in predicting fuel costs, the continuing of Walsh's pet project - Openskies, and the serious overcount (still) of administration/managers in IfCE.

And not offering temporary assistance to the company to survive an economic downturn.

Consider this. As you are a BA Pilot. Openskies pilots are cheaper to employ than yourself. Should Walsh decide he can screw more cash out of the company employees, and scope agreements aside, decide that the new single fleet will have cheaper cabin crew and also cheaper pilots. He therefore employs/transfers pilots to the new fleet on Openskies t&cs. And then watches the fleet grow and take on more and more routes. Would you consider this as helping the company through a difficult patch or a long term smash and grab on your hard fought t&cs?

[Carnage Matey!]

What happens in year 3 is whatever you negotiate. You're coming at this like cabin crew are the only ones affected by these proposed cuts and everyone else gets a "thanks very much, here's your cash back" in year 3. That's not on the table for anyone. I don't disagree with you that the company are trying to take advantage of the circumstances, but I do disagree with the "Why are they only after cabin crew?" propaganda being spread by certain parties who've long been resistant to any change due to their zero-sum mentality.

[wobble2plank]

PC767,

That was a long fought battle that, ultimately, BAPLA lost in many respects but won on the grounds of strengthening and getting BA to legitimise SCOPE. It is not really for discussion on this thread but the support from many other departments in BA to BALPA's efforts was underwhelming. Openskies will no longer be expanding, the aircraft tagged to go to it have been sold and the whole airline now operates under a French AOC, possibly giving it access to closed markets that mainline BA can't operate. Time will tell but I feel that it is a dead duck.

As to CC bringing the airline down? Yes it is a possibility if BASSA don't recognise that there is a problem. No one knows how long this downturn will last. I think ALL departments will agree that temporary measures until the situation improves are acceptable. What cannot be though is the ability to stick your heads in the sand and shout 'no no no no no' until the company caves in and lets you continue to run your little empire on it's current terms and conditions. Times change and BASSA needs to 'negotiate' (v. ne·go·ti·at·ed, ne·go·ti·at·ing, ne·go·ti·ates
v.intr.
To confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement) rather than stonewall the attempts of the company to rationalise. Only then will an acceptable status quo be achieved. Remeber that many other departments of BA have already rationalised and are living under totally different terms than a few years back. Why should IfCE be any different? Why should you continue to enjoy outdated working practices and recompense above the industry standard when other departments are having to tighten their belts, take the short term pain on already rationalised contracts and then attempt to get it back later?

Is it BA management spin? Possibly some but definitely not all.

[PC767]

I'm coming at this like cabin crew are the only ones to face permanent cuts.

I'm genuinely worried. The cuts amount to roughly £6k per cabin crew. This is alot for anyone to lose, but amounts to a good 25% loss to me. That is not sustainable.

[PC767]

Wobble.

My comparrison to Openskies was theoretical. From a cabin crew point of view the new fleet may as well have Openskies upon their name badges. And it was to highlight the severity of the changes, which are not short term pain but long term slaughter.

From my position neither of the TUs have their heads in the sand. It strikes me that because BASSA haven't said 'yeah, wonderful ideas, when can we start?' to the companies wish list, that they are being accussed of being obstructive. And this word, negotiate, yup I thinks thats what they are doing now:ugh:.

[Da Dog]

PC767, the figure of £6000 banded around by BASSA is deliberately alarmist and provocative, reading between the lines not all the cash needs come form your own pocket.

You keep talking about Open Skies, yet display no understanding where it is placed in the scheme of things.

The start up costs have been spent, too late to worry about that now, but if you were to ask WW or Keith Williams, they are both very clear....... There is no more free money for Openskies, it must stand alone.:ok:

You mentioned the scope agreement, its just that, so how is WW going to employ pilots on cheaper terms and conditions in the UK?? Perhaps if BASSA weren't fiddling with bus timetables, CSD hotel upgrades and generally saying "NO ,now whats the question?," they may have tried to come up with a scope clause for cabin crew

If the unions box clever in the next few weeks, then you might see bonuses curtailed, you might see workers tie themselves in more to the future success of BA. For the time being though Pilots are just like you with no guaranty of any sort of payback.

[PC767]

We are told by Mr Francis (head of IfCE) that wages account for 99% of the IfCE budget. He will not break the costs down any further. £82,000,000 from c14,000 crew equals c£6,000 per head. Unless there is further transparency this has to be the assumption.

I know that Openskies isn't coming to LHR/LGW. The point was how would you react as a Pilot if a new fleet was established and the flight crew had to accept Openskies t&cs. Not very well. You may have a choice not to transfer but you will not have a say about which routes the fleet operates.

[wobble2plank]

I don't doubt that BASSA are negotiating, it is, however, that alarmist information that 'leaks' from fortress BASSA that causes problems.

Surely it cannot be healthy for any union to scaremonger its members before negotiating a position that 'alleviates their fears'? An honest upfront appraisal of what's on the table followed by a members poll of what can reasonably be accepted and what cannot would form a far more stable negotiating base.

How many briefing details have BASSA passed on to their members or organised for member attendance? How are BASSA, apart from a slightly slanted website, passing vital information to their members whilst attempting to show both sides of the negotiation from unbiased perspectives?

Communication is key here. BALPA and BA have run meetings with, amongst others, WW, Keith Williams, Stephen Riley and Al Bridger for the last few weeks, will BASSA be doing the same?

I think that is where you will find the difference of opinion as to the severity of this little economic downturn comes from. Forewarned is forearmed and any decision taken on bad advice is, generally, a bad one.

[PC767]

Somebody a while back was critical of QRS in 5* hotels.

Quick point. Airport standby for long haul is extremely inefficient and restrictive. Time on standby has to be figured into duty hours which causes the restriction. For short haul this isn't a problem, but short haul do not operate a QRS. Hotel rest does not impact duty hours in the same way, thus it is more efficient for the company to be able to give 45mins to an individual to operate long haul. Personally I've been called for HKG and LAX recently which I could not do from an airport standby of 6 hours.

From a BALPA hotel rep during the problems with the LHR-EWR-JFK-MAN-JFK-EWR-LHR downroute accomodation debacle. BA will not pay more than £30 per night for a room because of the bulk required. The CRC is full now - where will all the extra standbys go?

[Da Dog]

PC767 looking at the "wish list" items 2,3,6,8,9,11,14,15,17,28,and 30 are solutions which means crew may work harder and be more flexible but won't hit your pocket. Well thats my understanding anyway.

There is no point or comparison to be made reference open skies. That useless BALPA who lost out to the company on Openskies negotiated that while BASSA fiddled with trivia.:ok:

[Carnage Matey!]

Home standby? Flight Ops dont need QRS.

[PC767]

If invited them I'm certain BASSA would hold talks with the above. However, for now Bill Francis is the negotiator on behalf of BA.

The first three weeks of negotiations were covered by a radio silence agreement. However, with BA's approval BASSA have released updates on the 24/02, 26/02, 02/03, 06/03 and the 19/03. There is a branch meeting on the 06/04 to inform of the companies and BAs final positions. From there guidance will be recieved from crew on whether to accept or not.

[wiggy]

PC767

You are quite right, crew on QRS are much more restricted in their use than those doing standby at home or from a hotel/B&B near the airport, which begs this question: Why have Long Haul Cabin Crew on QRS at all?

[PC767]

Why not theorectically compare to Openskies. The stance there was BA changing Pilots terms and conditions via the backdoor, a Trojan horse.

New fleet is cabin crew's Openskies, albeit using a battering ram to come directly through the front door.

What Walsh negotiated and accepted two years ago with BASSA, he has now had a change of heart. I've been reminded, several times, on here that agreements are not set in stone and are open to change. What is to stop Walsh, once the cabin of new fleet is cheap enough, deciding to reduce costs in the flight deck of new fleet. Nothing but an agreement which is not set in stone and open to change.

Whether this will happen or not is not my point. What I would like to know is how flight crew would respond, would it be any different to the feelings of cabin crew now. Try and understand where we are coming from.

[PC767]

Wiggy. Crew on airport and home standbys are more restrictive QRS is the better option for long haul.

I'm on a west coast USA trip. We were crew short at the briefing, a standby was needed. Unless (if there were l/h airport standbys) an airport standby had just come on duty - they couldn't be used. Delaying the flight whilst a home standby arrives incurrs additional costs and may have a knock on effect to schedules/connections. Having a ORS in a £30 room who will join us with 45mins and not delay the flight and not have duty hours issues is the best solution.

[wobble2plank]

Everyone, I believe, understands where crew are coming from.

The difficulty I have grasping, and probably many, many others is that this alignment of contract is long, long overdue. The current working practices and pay of the CC do not fit into the modern age. The days of halcyon, rich air travel are over and the company needs to re-address that. Oddly enough most other departments have taken their re-adjustment and continued on with life. Flight ops went through it, the loaders and tug drivers are going through it now and the bus drivers took their share of pain a couple of years ago. Ground services and IM have all had their fair share as well.

As I have said before, BASSA have done extremely well holding on to the current T's & C's but the millstone is now getting too heavy for the corporate neck and something has to go. Openskies was seen as a trojan horse and has, subsequently died a death. Whether or not it would have expanded to 'Jet Star' proportions we will never know but there was a lot of crowing from the sidelines that 'it was about time Nigels got their commupence'. Much coming from crew. What it wasn't though was a change to our T's & C's as we had already gone through the negotiations on that one.

Change is inevitable. CC are one of the last bastions of the 70's working conditions. Work with the company to find common agreement or I really do feel that the corporate monster that is Waterworld will, this time, steamroller you.

[wiggy]

PC767

Thanks but I'm still confused - and I'll also admit to playing the Devil's advocate here. I still don't see how Flight Ops can manage to provide emergency standby coverage for their longhaul departure's using just Home Standby's yet IFCE have to have QRSs on call at the airport. Whilst I accept crewing HKG can be difficult (a late night departure where the Home Standby has already been on call for a while) I have certainly been called out from Home Standby and legally operated trips to the likes of LAX, GRU and MRU in the past, :ok: so it's not that limiting.

Is the difference due to "scheme" ( the blue book) or, dare I say it, Union Agreements?

[Kelly Smunt]

PC 767 flight deck at BA never have to incur costs and allowances staying in hotels on standby or for that matter at the airport on long haul.They have 2 hour home standby.How come they can do that and not cabin staff ?

[PC767]

We can. We also have 2hr standby, more 2hr standbys than QRS.

Perhaps flight ops plan better?

Perhaps flight crew are better motivated?

Who knows, and what new arguments/discussions will prevail.

What I do know is of the occassions I've been called from QRS and the occassions that other crew have been called form QRS which has prevented disruption. I also know of an occassion when 4 crew failed to make a HKG report because of an accident on the roads, there was no QRS available and the flight crew came close to running out of hours. We were fortunate that the 4 crew, because of the delay, made the flight. However for a while it didn't look good.

[overstress]

PC767: if wages are 99% of your dept's budget then if I was a BASSA rep I'd be asking them where on earth the hotel costs and everything else in IFCE fits in, that 99% doesn't make sense, does it? (I'm not saying he didn't say this BTW!)

On whose budget is everything else?!

BASSA should be delving deeply and coming up with ideas for savings which DON'T involve pay cuts, IMHO.

[jetset lady]

PC767,

Would you not be able to do the same with airport standbys, as we do at LGW? We cover both long and short haul from an airport standby and specific standbys will start at specific times to ensure the long haul flights flights are covered.

Please don't take this as an "if we can do it, why can't you" dig. It's a genuine question as to whether this would be possible as I'm not too familiar with QRS. You have many more l/h routes than us, especially the long range ones, which may make it unworkable for LHR, hence my query.

[PC767]

98.9% of IfCE budget goes on salaries. I believe Bassa have asked for a breakdown.

[PC767]

Jetset.

LGW standbys cover both long and short haul as you state. At LHR short haul operate airport standbys, and long haul operate a mixture of QRS and 2hr standbys.

QRS is an acronym for Quick Response Standby. You are based in either the Arora or Sofitel at LHR and you are on 45mins notice. QRS lasts for 3 days and is in 8hr blocks. Often the call out is to go direct to an aircraft.

The majority of stand by is via 2hr standby. For this no accomodation is provided and a minimum of 2hrs notice is given. Again 2hrs lasts for 3 days in 8hr blocks. Both standbys are part of a 9 day standby block duty with the remaining time being taken up with 24hr standby.

The general rule is that QRS is only used for issues at or near report time. Any other issues resulting in crew shortage are covered by 2hrs. Ie if an individual reports sick in the am for a pm flight, a 2hr standby will be notified.

I understand that at LGW airport standbys must be used for long haul within the first 2hrs of the start of standby to protect duty hours.
That would work for our shorter long hauls but not the longer range trips as scheme states 'if a crew member is on stand by duty on immediate readiness at an airport , then the allowable FDP is calculated using the start time of the stand by duty.'

[pre3mhjt]

Overstress,

CC HOTAC costs are included in the Flight Ops budget. 88m with approx a 20/80% split between flight crew/cabin crew. Believe it’s all up for re-assessment in the coming weeks though.

Pre3

[wobble2plank]

Anyone care to mention how nice the inside of an airport Travelodge is then???

[flyeruk69]

the sublect of airport hotels around the world has been brought up before and strange as it is BA manage to get better deals away from the airport, with a few exceptions such as BOM.
I guess airport hotels are in demand and can get more than the $20 per room per night BA pay !!

[overstress]

Airport hotels=non starter. In most places as stated above they generally are more expensive. City hotels are suffering in the recession and offer better deals anyway.

[BuckDich]

Hi guys,

I know this may look a little bit off topic, but when I watched this video and remembered that not long ago a Spanair plane crashed, killing 154, and so many other accidents had happened since, that didn't have such a happy ending as the BA038 (thanks to the whole crew) or the US Airways 1549 (thanks to the whole crew again), I couldn't help but ask myself what I am doing here, at 38,000ft, working in an industry that values so little my job, my health and in the worst of the cases, my life.

When we have a safe flight it's easy to forget what the main purpose of our job is and how important it is (and the risks involved). And we also forget that the current T&C's are there for a reason: how healthy is to cross 6 or 7 time zones, having a nightstop and then flying back to base?. I've done that with my previous employer and I felt like rubbish.
Or having three days shorthaul flights followed by a three day longhaul with a lovely night flight to finish it off?. I can confirm that you feel like rubbish as well.
And then they come up with the happy idea of a new mixed fleet and the even happier "ideas&opportunities" wish list.
I wouldn't be surprised if next time they ask us to work for free, just for the peace of mind of the shareholders.

Well guys, have a look at the video and think about it for just a sec.

YouTube - VIDEO #2 of FedEx Cargo Jet Crashing in Tokyo, Japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiGDd2QGNUQ)

Rant over,
Cheers!

[Ten West]

Cabin Crew play a large part in the safe operation of Cargo flights do they? :rolleyes:

[flyeruk69]

Tenwest,

Was there really any need for that comment ?

The video illustrates what can go wrong in our choice of career not that cabin crew work on cargo aircraft !!

I just wonder if you are on here just to have a pop at cabin crew at every opportunity ?

From reading your recent posts and username, I assume you are not cabin crew and as the mods mentioned earlier in this thread, this part or PPRuNe is for cabin crew rather than all and sundry to have a go at cabin crew !!

[Ten West]

I'll ignore the "Pr**k" reference as I never stoop to personal insults, but:

Why not post references to the Manchester disaster in the 80's?

Cabin Crew saved a lot of lives there. Surely a more relevant comparison?

British Airtours Flight 28M - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M)

[flapsforty]

Cabin Crew play a large part in the safe operation of Cargo flights do they? :rolleyes:

Ten West, in view of your needlessly sarcastic and irrelevant remark quoted above, I too have done a quick re-read of your posting history.

You write without Nokia speak and in full sentences.
You don't resort to personal insult.
You are apparently employed as ground staff.
You have a major interest in the doings of cabin crew, without a reason for that larger than usual interest being readily apparent.

This is a last and final explanation to you.
You are here on a forum not meant for you. That means that there is less leeway for you here than there might be for you on the Flight/Ground Ops, Crewing and Dispatch Forum; meant for people with your job.
You are welcome to participate here as long as your participation contributes something useful to the subjects for which this forum is meant.
Needless sarcasm, thinly veiled insults, 'clever' one-liners dissing CC and all other tricks and tom-foolery are not welcome.

Your last back-pedaling post not-withstanding.


Try Jetblast for clever insults, arrogance and fight-picking. They love that kind of thing down there. You'll finds lots of equal minded sparring partners, I promise.

[Ten West]

Fair enough.

I stand corrected. I hope everything works out for you all to your satisfaction.

Best wishes, and goodbye. :ok:

[overstress]

BuckD: I wouldn't be surprised if next time they ask us to work for free, just for the peace of mind of the shareholders.


"They" would be delighted of course. What employees in BA have to worry about is the management giving 90 days notice on your contract if your dept can't/won't make the savings BA are demanding.

This applies to all groups, not just cabin crew. WW is rumoured to be prepared to do this. If IFS/IFCE don't come up with the goods it could be an interesting few months.

If BA decide to vary anyone's contract this is what the law says:

If the employer wishes to vary the terms and conditions of employment and the employee, having been consulted, objects to the variation, then the employer may decide to terminate the contract by dismissing the employee. As usual in the event of dismissal, the appropriate statutory or contractual notice (or pay in lieu of notice) would have to be given and any other contractual obligations relating to the termination of employment would have to be fulfilled.

Rights to notice and reasons for dismissal The employer would then be free to offer the job on different terms and conditions either to the dismissed employee or to another applicant.

If you want to read the full monty on this the link is here (http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page16161.html#Refusal%20by%20employee%20to%20authorise%20va riation)

I post this not to scaremonger but to try to introduce some reality to the thread, I hope BASSA are on the ball.

PS: As I understand it, if you are dismissed in this way you take the company to tribunal, or county court if you can prove measurable loss. However I am not a lawyer, I know that there are a few on this forum.

[PC767]

Interesting comparrison between this thread and a new one in Rumours & News (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/367523-industrial-action.html)

Thus far it seems Pilots threatening strike action about a company revising their T&Cs is acceptable. One poster in opposition was put in place. Amongst the changes - reduction in crew water.

Personally I wish the aggrieved well. In my Conservative with a small c mind there is much about opportunistic t&c stripping going on rather than a simple battle for survival in the mindset of KPI bonus chasing senior managers.

There is a balance to be achieved.

[overstress]

PC767: balance yes, but there is much to be said for not leaving yourself open to this kind of management opportunism. It could be construed that BASSA has done just that.... :uhoh:

[The Moo]

Could this new fleet be crewed by Cabin Crew & Pilots on new T & C's ?

[Juan Tugoh]

The new fleet may well be crewed by CC on new T&Cs, but not pilots on new T&Cs. One thing the OpenSkies debacle did clarify was that the Scope agreement was cast in stone. BASSA have for years been happy with several sets of T&C's within the BA CC community. Custom and practice would fatally weaken any objections BASSA may have against another different set of T&C's within the CC they represent. BA have quite clearly demonstrated how willing they are to use legal tools to get their own way. Any union deciding to call for IA better ensure they are legally watertight or they will find themselves in a very poor position.

I'm sure there are lots of other avenues to explore

[Munnyspinner]

I am not CC but an interested part time pax.

I read a lot here about rights and potential unfairness.

Undoubtably, you will have T&C that were agreed to at some point in time. However, things change. The actual governing principle here is supply and demand.

There are more A/C, more Pilots and many more CC than anyone needs. So the price for each will fall. The unions may be doing a great job in trying to protect working conditions, however, when it comes to money - it will either work for the company or not. If not, no company!

[T4Turtle]

We are facing the most crippling economic time that has faced the key world economies in at least two generations. There are fundamental reasons that has promoted this unbelievable threat to our day to day existence. A greater influence is our fear and hence the majority reigning in their expenditure. Business is just that, it is business. When I flew as cabin crew I used my job and employer to further my gain in life rewarding experiences and personal development for my CV. Business is not welfare. In tough climates a business has to survive and it is for those entrusted with the executive to motivate the business in a profitable aspect to maintain a level of growth and continuity. Gone are the days of staying with an employer for a lifetime to receive a timepiece on retirement and a pension. We must now reappraise our lifestyles to live within our means and not our false ideals so often flashed through advertisements. I have been through life threatening situations. I have had friends die, some violently. These traumatic experiences have taught me that regardless, if I am able to breathe, love and give joy to my nearest and dearest then nothing else matters.

[EYXW]

So a unanimous NO to saving the 82 Million required. A unanimous NO to the creation of the new fleet. A unanimous NO to any further talks about this. A Vote of NO Confidence in Willie and Immediate Ballot for Strike Action should plans still be pushed forward.

Lots of constructive stuff there - so BASSA not sticking fingers in their ears and shouting NO NO NO then?

Guys, Girls tell your reps to go away and try harder than this pitiful 3 weeks of nil attempt at compromise - the posts I have read on the BASSA forum are so disturbing with the "I'd rather see the company fold than accept this" not being in the minority any longer.

Such a shame - I know the BA crew are great but feel they are being led up the Garden Path.

[Carnage Matey!]

So BASSA says no to negotiations and Willie serves 90 days notice on their contracts. Gonna be another interesting summer.

[wobble2plank]

Ouch,

Termination follows a summer of unrest as the company calls time on contracts and continues to recruit onto the short term, mixed fleet contract underneath.

It will, indeed, be another interesting summer. I feel there will be little sympathy with the CC when the details of these working practices hits the press in the current climate.

I feel there was a bit too much war drum bashing and not enough looking at the critical problem.

[Da Dog]

To be fair EYXW, the course of events and BASSAs reaction were/are entirely predictable ,you would be naive to expect anything else:rolleyes:

I am told that BASSA are aware there is little chance of stopping the new fleet with industrial action,but from the meeting this afternoon they seem not to make this entirely clear:hmm:

That's why BASSA were frantically trying to limit its (the new fleets)size and scope during negotiations last week:suspect:

Instead its BASSA knows best style of rhetoric along the lines of don't be concerned about the new fleet because no ones going to want to work on it anyway, in this they may be right that of the 1000 people already trained some may kick the idea in touch when they see the T&Cs:sad:

BASSA may now wish to play the long game when they meet with BA on Thursday, but with a resounding NON they are putting the time line firmly back in the hands of BA.

[EYXW]

Predictable but, none the less, still frustrating.

I just don't think IA or the threat of it is going to win it for BASSA this time - can CC legally strike over the creation of a new fleet? Are people going to turn their noses up at a wage which although vastly inferior to the current BA one is also above the most visible (Virgin) competitors wages?

I think that it needs to be realised that CHANGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN, and failure to be part of it will just result in the old fleet's demise being quicker.

[wobble2plank]

EYXW

can CC legally strike over the creation of a new fleet?

Could the pilots have legally gone on strike over Openskies? I feel that will be the answer to that muse. Unfortunately for the CC here they don't have a Scope clause to fall back on.

Whilst the two disputes were and are fundamentally different, stand by for a backlash of 'well you did it why can't we'.

As I have said many times before I think the CC and BASSA have done extremely well to maintain what they have until this point. Now Willie Walsh has decided to take on those practices and is using this current cash crisis as a catalyst.

I, personally, think you would have to be criminally insane to strike over these matters, which amount to a re-jig of the current contract producing a more productive department.

Time will tell.

[Carnage Matey!]

The biggest ever BASSA meeting, and the largest single gathering of British Airways cabin crew, took place at Kempton Park this morning. There were 1508 members present and they voted on 3 resolutions.



1) The 1/2000 Branch fully authorises the Branch Committee to negotiate on its behalf. Should negotiations not be successful, or should BA impose,
then without further referral or delay a ballot for industrial action will commence. ( This was a reaffirmment of the resolution passed at
January's meeting)

In favour 1508 Abstentions 0 Against 0

2) A vote of no confidence in Willie Walsh.

In favour 1508 Abstentions 0 Against 0

3) Do we accept the principle of saving ÂGBP82m.

No 1508 Abstentions 0 Yes 0


Obviously these sentiments will be passed back to British Airways and we will keep you informed of their response.

Call me a cynic but 100% support in a ballot does tend to be the preserve of Kim Jong-Il, Robert Mugabe and Saddam Husseins of the world!

[cloud747]

with regards to some comments on here, yes bassa see that the new fleet coming in however what they are asking ba to do is sign on the dotted line to say that current crews will not be out of pocket etc, ba have verbally said this however when it has been asked for in writing ( which will legally stand up in court as advised by the lawyer at the meeting) ba have refused , therefore its this that the strike will be over this.
and as also advised willy is out for the crews allowances etc, as the union got over the 82k amount of savings with out even touching the terms and conditions of the crew,
mr walsh is out to make ba a low cost airline not a premium service airline like it is. he has no experiance in managing a full service airline and this will be his down fall.
also ground crew and maangers have also today agreed to ballot so it look like mr walsh may now of bitten of more than he can chew
have you seen the mirror today this says it all. he makes mistakes and has now made far to many.
think he best be booking his one way flight back to the emerald isle on fr, now

[EYXW]

lgeflyboy - whilst I understand what you are getting at I don't think BASSA are going to achieve this by not talking to BA any longer over these cost savings, there is no precedent for the protection of CC's work within the UK like there is for the Pilots (SCOPE) - if you want it, you will HAVE to give something in return.

And no I am afraid I haven't read the mirror today......... prefer the, oh I dunno, Sun? :}

[Tiger]

Paid-off BA bosses get re-employed - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/04/paid-off-ba-bosses-get-re-employed-115875-21252265/)

[wobble2plank]

lgwflyboy,

Very eloquently put. I think?

Never run a full service airline? Aer Lingus possibly, long haul, full service? Yep.

If, and it's a big if, the passengers were still flooding through the terminal. IF the business section were not emptier than the House of Commons allowances payback room and IF the revenue and cash of the company were not being burnt at an alarming rate then I could, possibly, understand your viewpoint.

But, as we all live in a realistic, modern world where being paid to be late is not one of the rules anymore. Or delaying a service into a foreign country so that the 'box' times can be met just don't wash. Neither do a vast majority of the antiquated rules that brings BA to its knees whenever the CC throw their toys out of the cot. Snow disruption was a classic.

WW will, unfortunately, walk all over your contracts as he cancels them one by one and retrains cabin crew on the new contract. Once done, the airline will be on hourly rates, fixed turn arounds and less sitting on backsides in the CRC.

The savings will come. The CC T's & C's will be brought, permanently, into line with other departments and the whole show will go on. November I believe the new fleet starts. Now is your choice as to whether you are on it.

[ptc]

No, No , No- were the results of todays BASSA meeting......................

This is not the way to compromise,and at the end of the day, would you rather be out of a job or continue with this NO attitude? Lots of people over the recent year have been made redundant due to airlines folding, do you really want to see BA being one of them? And no, i can't imagine the uk goverment bailing them out!!
Mr Walsh is looking for savings throughout the business, not just cabin crew. And why is their such bitterness between flight crew and cabin crew? Yes the flight crew have been asked to save alot less , but their are also alot less of them for a start!

Its isn't nice to think of the financial implications, but there will be alot worse if you have no job at all!

So BASSA have asked BA to sign an agreement to stop any change in current crew pay etc, why would they do this? Surely this is where the majority of the £82m has to be made???

Like someone already stated, time will tell

[Travelling Public]

No I am not Cabin Crew so apologies for commenting on this thread, but as a fan of BA and as paying customer it worries me greatly.

You guys do a great job, I travel BA because I like the service, but these days you are not alone. Full service or no frills there's plenty of choice. Can BA carry on losing £2.5M per week, no. Will customers go elsewhere if talks of strikes hit the papers, yes.

My industry engineering, struggling with the rest through recession, 30 of our 130 staff laid of so far. All are struggling to find work with 30 or so chasing any job advertised.

If you think no one will work the new fleet, or if thats what your being told, think again, suspect they will be queuing round the block.

Yes or course you want to keep the status quo, and yes you should try to get the best, but be realistic times are more than hard.

So as someone who likes all that BA offers I hope you find a way through this without destroying what you have, and also without letting strike punish the rest of us relying on you for hard won holidays.

[Carnage Matey!]

when flight deck have only been told not to take pay rise for a year etc and thats it

Oh really? Perhaps you'd like to check your facts with a pilot instead of relying on the BASSA brainwashing.

ALSO THERE WILL BE NO ONE TO TRAIN THESE NEW CREW AS ALL CURRENT TRAINERS ARE REFUSING TO TRAIN CREW FOR A NEW FLEET

Current trainers are already training crew for the new fleet, and have been doing so for a year. They're called temps. When BA suspend the first of the trainers for refusing to train whoever BA tells them to will we see a show of strength, or will they all go scurrying back to Cranebank?

[wobble2plank]

its sad also that our flight crew not all of them but a few seem to be getting on the band wagon and telling crew they should accpet things etc, this has also been brought up now as its getting more and more common with flt crew harrasing crew over this.

No one has been 'harassing' anyone over this. Constructive discussion can often seem 'harassing' when one has few or no relevant points to bring to said discussion. As to jumping on the band wagon? Well sorry but the 'BASSA' style bandwagon was the one that the flight crew got off a fair few years ago when they were benchmarked for pay and conditions and many, many pilots took a cut to support those on the bottom who avoided redundancy. The re-negotiated terms and conditions are there for all to see and, apart from offering the company a fixed accountable value for hours flown, they are working well and allow the spreading of trips thus experience without the 'honey pot' trips being grabbed by the biggest gorilla in the tree.

Once the transitional pain has been achieved and the company survives the current downturn THEN the re-negotiation can start with 'well, we gave you this when the times were tough, now it's your turn.'. Not ideal by any stretch but better than the current 'we would rather bring the company down and loose every ones jobs to get WW'. Who, I am sure, is probably visibly shaking at the BASSA vote of no confidence from the 1500 out of 16000 that could be bothered to turn up.

Good luck, I pity our passengers and don't look forward to another round of 'traveller misery' headlines which will damage our cause no end.

[MrBunker]

Hi guys,

Believe it or not (and I accept that the default setting might not be to believe it in these times of strife) but per capita we're being asked to save more than twice the amount that each individual CC member is being asked to save. We've actually been asked to save £39 million over 2 years which, when divided by a smidge over 3000 pilots works out a lot more per head than IFCE have been approached for. Yes, percentages might well be different but it's not as simple as BASSA would wish to paint it for you guys. Union representation is important (especially in a sprawling, immovable monolith such as BA) but it's genuinely hurtful when another lie is spat at us in the flight deck in order to whip up the troops. The reps aren't there to deal with the fallout of these untruths and CRM spirals into nothingness. Oh, and by the way, we didn't nick the pension of the CC, BALPA found the NI loophole that helped preserve NAPS in much better health (BASSA failing to turn up to a number of meetings) and we didn't precipitate the loss of the 30 yr ticket. That was on BA's radar from the get-go of the ST2009 negotiations. The fact it appears to suit BASSA's agenda to badmouth all around is, as far as I can tell, as much a part of the historical fabric of BA as is the inability of management to meaningfully engage staff.

Anyone who thinks HMG won't let the airline founder in the current environment may have an unpleasant shock coming. They've emptied the purse rescuing the banks and airlines aren't that vital to the fundamental economic infrastructure in the UK in the same way. All the carriers would easily soak up the loss. It'd just be a bonanza time for LH/AF/KLM/UA etc etc as their routes in and out of LHR/LGW/LCY/MAN/ etc etc suddenly had the load factors we're all praying for right now.

Oh, and in case anyone thinks this is the spiel of a BA pilot who is enjoying some malevolent schadenfreude at the upcoming melee, I can assure you it's not. My household will suffer greatly in the near future if BA get exactly what they want. Between my partner and I we're going to lose a great deal of money thanks to WW/IFCE/Flt Ops desire to hammer our T and Cs. But I don't believe for a moment that the bellicose untruths that BASSA spit out can take away from the fact that the world is seriously ill at the moment and sticking our collective fingers in our ears and hoping it's all going to go away will do any good.

It's more than feasible that the airline could collapse and HMG wouldn't, couldn't and don't need to do anything about it. We're just not that important. I wish it were otherwise.

Mr B (with a genuinely sorrowful intent, I promise you)

[ptc]

Don't forget the flight crew actually moved over to the hourly rate a while back, and from what I have been told, is a fair way of doing it. So if it works for them then surely it can work for cc.

[MrBunker]

No probs,

We've been asked to save £13 million in year one (approx 4% pay cut) plus £26 million in year two (A further 4% on top of the first year). These savings would be permanent if BA were to get their way, as would those made by IFCE. Anyway, don't want to hijack a thread in the CC section so, my apologies if I've overstepped the mark, etiquette wise.

ATB

MrB

[wobble2plank]

Just to add in the bit about the Daily Mirror. Unfortunately this is fairly standard custom and practice with large corporations.

By bringing individuals back as consultant they are effectively bringing them on board as 'self employed' personnel with no contractual obligation and a shelf life as long as is needed to achieve the task. No pension requirement, no medical cover etc. etc. In the short term it is an excellent way to bolster your managerial staff levels and experience without having to commit to long term contractual obligations.

But that would have been explained by BASSA as well wouldn't it.

[overstress]

so its all going to kick off very soon new ceo is needed and a slate wiped clean were all can start a fresh.

lgwflyboy, your postings are hard to read (try paragraphs?) and show a poor grasp of the facts, however I think you'll find that WW will stay until he is 55, you will not get a fresh CEO anytime soon.

You might get notice on your contracts though if BASSA continue with their brainwashing and intransigence.

[Tiger]

From The Sunday Times
May 21, 2006
Comment: Matt Cooper: Walsh was no robber, but Ahern's dithering may lose airline millions
Last week’s attack by Bertie Ahern on former Aer Lingus boss Willie Walsh was so bad-tempered you’d think he had advance knowledge of Friday’s disastrous opinion poll findings. He didn’t, of course, so the precise reason for a verbal assault that would have resulted in a libel suit had the taoiseach made it outside the Dail remains a mystery.

Ahern accused Walsh of trying to “steal” the assets of Aer Lingus and of planning to “shaft” the workers, just because the airline’s chief executive indicated two years ago that he was prepared to front a buyout of the business.

Ahern has had plenty of opportunities since Wednesday to withdraw these extraordinary allegations, but the best he could manage was a mealy-mouthed excuse from a spokesman that he didn’t mean to say “steal”. What he did mean to say remains unexplained. Mary Harney offered the view that he probably meant to say “strip” but I’m not sure if her attempt to decode her boss’s use of the English language has been entirely successful.

The taoiseach’s claim is absurd but has proved a nifty exercise in distracting attention from the real scandal: Ahern’s dithering on the future of Aer Lingus and the likelihood that it will end up costing the state hundreds of millions of euros.

In his indecision on Aer Lingus, the taoiseach has turned prevarication into an art form. There were only two choices to sort out the airline’s future financing requirements — state investment or a sale of shares to the public. The decision has been dragged out so long that the company’s viability may be at risk.

The attack on Walsh was all the more remarkable given that it was the former chief executive that saved Aer Lingus as it plunged into financial turmoil in the wake of the global aviation recession prompted by 9/11. While the workers deserve credit for agreeing to a massive programme of redundancies that halved the workforce to 3,500, it was Walsh who fully appreciated the scale of the problem and had the guts to demand the level of sacrifice required.

He realised saving Aer Lingus was not enough. The airline had to raise money to expand if it was to protect itself against further cycles of economic downturn. He asked, he begged, he cajoled but all to no avail. Conscious that trade unions were opposed to privatisation, the taoiseach wouldn’t say yes. But neither would he say no.

Walsh let his frustration get the better of him and made a critical error. He tried to call Ahern’s bluff by publicly offering to buy the company along with two other senior executives, Seamus Kearney and Brian Dunne. That’s buy, not steal.

There was a predictable outcry at the prospect of company insiders trying to purchase an iconic state asset. The taoiseach and his socialist buddies in the unions denounced the move as inspired by greed, but the overwhelming emotion was envy.

I doubt that Walsh really believed a management-led buyout of Aer Lingus would be allowed, but his naivety on that front, together with the continued refusal by the government to face up to a decision on financing, meant his days as Aer Lingus boss were numbered.

Walsh quit in late 2004 and is now sitting pretty as chief executive of British Airways. His success is a slap in the face for Ahern. It is a constant reminder that the taoiseach’s inaction allowed Aer Lingus to lose one of the most talented executives in the aviation industry. Could it be that this realisation was part of the reason for last week’s outburst?

The suspicion that the Ahern/Walsh showdown was personal deepened when the government sanctioned the sale of Aer Lingus in March. “I’m glad those individuals went on to prove their worth in the financial markets, but I’m glad they didn’t do it at the expense of Aer Lingus,” said Ahern last week.

So we are left with a puzzle. Selling Aer Lingus to a group of individuals who did the state some service by protecting a valuable asset when the world was in turmoil is not acceptable. Selling Aer Lingus to a group of faceless institutional investors is acceptable — even though there is no guarantee that they will pay more than Walsh, or be any less aggressive when it comes to slashing jobs and costs.

The beneficiary of Ahern’s obvious disdain for Walsh is Dermot Mannion, the new Aer Lingus chief executive. He returned from a more glamorous job in the Middle East on condition that he could raise money for expansion by selling shares to the public. So two years after Walsh made his proposal for private equity, this is now deemed an acceptable idea.

But everything else has changed and that is why Ahern’s dithering has been so dangerous. The government intends to sell 60% of the airline for about €600m and will try to conclude the deal in September. But the conditions for such a sale have altered dramatically since Walsh’s plan was first hatched in 2004.

Stock market values around the world, however, are falling as inflation and interest rates rise. Soaring fuel costs following the explosion in oil prices means that investors are largely shunning the aviation sector. One German airline has already been forced to reduce the price of its shares in order to ensure flotation on the stock market.

In this harsher environment, any money that Aer Lingus succeeds in raising from investors will be at greater risk than it would have been two years ago. New routes planned by the airline, to be serviced by aircraft purchased with the sale proceeds, may be difficult to establish. Aer Lingus has already been forced to slap a €70 “fuel surcharge” on the price of long-haul tickets. While no such measures are planned for its British or continental European routes, the principle has now been established and could come into play if profits are threatened.

All this means there are serious commercial reasons to question the financial rationale for a sale of Aer Lingus. Any disposal now is likely to be on the cheap, compared with the price that could have been achieved six months ago, never mind two years ago. The trade unions have not relinquished their bid to “save” Aer Lingus from the clutches of private enterprise. But having lost the ideological objection, Ahern’s indecision means they can now cite economic ones.

Regardless of opinion on this debate, Aer Lingus still needs cash. It has a €200m hole in its pension fund. It requires new aircraft, if not necessarily the €2 billion worth of kit planned by management. If it can’t raise money from new investors, then the state is going to have to stump up about €500m. Would the government like to clarify which essential service or project will have its budget slashed to meet this bill?

If the company’s advisers decide that changed circumstances no longer make the airline an attractive proposition for the private sector, then the state will be forced to pick up the tab on the basis that nobody else wants to. Try selling that to a sceptical public when there are so many other demands on the government’s funds.

And what happens if those same advisors recommend that the sale should be at a much lower price that reflects the difficult external environment?

These dilemmas would not exist if Ahern had acted decisively and swiftly. But while Nero fiddled away, something even more annoying was happening out in the real world. Ahern has made no secret of his dislike for Walsh but you can be sure that it is nothing compared with his (unreported) views on Michael O’Leary. Unlike the Ryanair boss, Walsh has never taken out full-page newspaper ads lampooning the taoiseach and branding him a “ditherer”.

O’Leary, the bête noir of the trade union movement, has been uncharacteristically quiet on the future of Aer Lingus, maybe because the stalemate at the state company has played right into his hands. As Aer Lingus waits in the departure lounge, Ryanair has become the primary provider of air travel into and out of the country, mostly at cheaper prices. Having turned its back on developing new flights out of Ireland during the Walsh era, O’Leary has taken advantage of the Ahern-sponsored difficulties affecting his domestic competitor, to soup up his Irish operations.

The taoiseach, by playing footsie with O’Leary’s enemies in the trade unions, has delivered the lion’s share of the Irish aviation market to Ryanair. It’s not what he intended, of course, but the irony won’t be lost on Walsh. He, surely, is enjoying the last laugh.

[mincer]

BASSA must act to bring down the company if necessary, the only way to solve this crisis- and it is a crisis of people's lives, is to threaten mutual assured destruction, as the USA and USSR used to play in the days of the Cold War.........come on some of you must remember that....

[Megaton]

The outcome of MAD was the downfall of the USSR through Reagan's policy of a technological arms race. Do you see the analogy?

[mincer]

Well the outcome of MAD was in fact never certain, hindisight is a wonderful thing.

The fact is that BASSA can wield enormous power and end these problems in an instant. If they strike, then BA is a lame duck.

Even better would be a regular strike once a month, then the punters will turn away from BA as being unreliable. Let's see what the shareholders say to mr Walsh then.

People in this country have been brain-washed by Thatcherism for 30 years, organised labour CAN win - look at Waterford Crystal in Ireland- an amazing victory.

BASSA - you can win- and you can keep a decent life and a decent wage for people- don't be afraid- you will win.

[Megaton]

Mincer,

Let's chat again in 6 months!

So BASSA bring BA down? Then what? i can go back to engineering. What are you going to do?

[mincer]

Ham,

You are failing to see the big picture which, should you wish, I am willing to explain tonight, as I have little else better to do. Once you allow these capitalists to take an inch they will take much more. These reductions of 'Columbus' (although the 'Columbus' label is hardly apt, as Columbus 'discovered' somewhere, he didn't destroy it), are supposedly due to 'economic circumstance'. I ask you, will the Ts&Cs be restored, once we leave the recession?? Of course not....

[Megaton]

Mincer,

Brilliant! I'm sorry I misunderstood the deeply ironic humour in your posts. No-one in their right mind could complain about capitalism whilst working for a stock-market listed company without having a finely honed sense of humour!

[Tiger]

I know feelings are high at the moment, but honestly possibly not the best to challenge cc, most are quite highly educated at BA.. I have had the offer to 3 interviews within a week and money a little higher than BA paid me this last tax year.. just a tip don`t take it the wrong way. Ex teachers, Biochemist, nurses, chefs, managers of various professions.

[mincer]

Ham,

Perhaps you are a pilot, I don't know- but I don't want to go into nonsense about the contradictions of the world we live in- do you suggest that I live from my allotment?

Ham- we should not be fighting each other- you are also only able to offer your labour and are equally expendable, you should remember that.

Would you be happy if your lifestyle came under attack? Would you?

There we go then.

[Carnage Matey!]

The fact is that BASSA can wield enormous power and end these problems in an instant. If they strike, then BA is a lame duck.

Yet with a 96% vote in support of strike action last time they capitulated to BA. Why? Because they are very good at whipping the troops up into a frenzy but very bad at explaining the consequences of such. Because when people realise that the consequences are days without pay, missing that lucrative box payment trip or maybe even losing their job they don't want to go through with it. Because when people realise that whilst they can spout off anonymously on internet forums about what they intend to do, to actually do it would lead to close personal scrutiny from the company, they lose their nerve. BASSA can wield enormous rhetoric but their power has long since gone.

[mincer]

Well, Carnage has hit the nail on the head of course. Capitalism has us all turned into self-seeking surburban-living, microwave food eating, SKY + watchin nothings. Carnage is right and there is nothing I can say. There are some marvellous characters in the air as cabin crew, really great, NORMAL, ORDINARY people, who don't want £50K a year and a BMW X5 to polish at the weekend, but, there is a division of labour, we see the same person maybe once every 10 years, and this, a lack of community, a lack of purpose, makes us different from the miners of the 19th century, and this lack of coherence and a modern day love of material possessions will see Carnage's dastardly prediction come true.....

[Human Factor]

...you are also only able to offer your labour and are equally expendable, you should remember that.

If Ham is a pilot, I assure you he is far less expendable than if he were cabin crew as his replacement will take an awful lot longer to train.:rolleyes:

[mincer]

Depends- they can be done in six months- but yeh, there are less of them.....

cabin crew of BA unite- you have nothing to lose but your chains....

[mincer]

Channex - thanks for the summary.

An army is being assmbled as Channex types his message at The Rivers.

BA crew- heed this warning and act on it in your interests as you feel best.

There are many 1000s of people across the world, who, Channex correctly points out, that believe that they are going to enter the world's favourite airline on the world's best conditions.

They will be disappointed when they find out that they will only recieve an 11-month contract, which by no means will be renewed.

Why renew an 11-month contract to someone who might have caught wind of willie's game, when there is a fresh face ready to take over, naiive to the machinations of the senior management's ploy?

BA CREW - ATTENTION ATTENTION

There are 10 people EVERY DAY at The Rivers being offered temp contracts to work at BA.

10 X 5 = 50 per week
50 X 4 = 200 per month
let's say 1000 in 6 months

thats 2000 per year.

We are 14000 cabin crew approximatley. Therefore, the entire fleet can be replaced in SEVEN years.

OK- so you whinge about it and complain- willie can sack you.

OK- employment tribunal - months and months of messing about- and what do you get? Maybe a £30 K or so- big deal- that's in his plan- he can stomach that for the savings he's made on all you bloated CSDs and pursers out there...GAME OVER

This is happening RIGHT NOW- I say again- RIGHT NOW.

However- there is something you can do about it.....watch for my reply....

[Have you heard this!]

Paid-off BA bosses get re-employed - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/04/paid-off-ba-bosses-get-re-employed-115875-21252265/)

[mincer]

I think it's called

'endemic corruption'

[SFBdolly]

Oi, hang on a mo.. ! NATIONAL FLAG CARRIER.. I think your thinking about a BA from a long time ago..

Time to wake up form that time warp you've been in for god only knows...Because if you do not - you may wake up to to find you've no job. Change is on it's way. And from readng your posts, your going to find it very hard.

[Carnage Matey!]

wudnt u if u were expectd to forfit 500 a month with is what the saving equals to each crew member per month, ud b stupid not too!!

Its comments like that which make me realise you really don't know what you're talking about and this will lead to yet another BASSA collapse. £500 per month? Even I'm not being asked to lose that, and may I remind you I'm being asked to lose a lot more than you. Go ahead and believe the BASSA nonsense if you will, but when your colleagues realise that much of there target could be reached simply buy changing work practices rather than losing pay I think you'll find yourself on a very lonely picket line whilst your colleagues check in at a temporary CRC.

[EYXW]

Grief above,

BASSA lie 1 : There is no tragic economic downturn that requires these savings.

BASSA lie 2: The Flight Deck Crew are an evil army of people created by WW to hate and destroy CC.

I could go on forever but the inaccuracies BASSA come out with are never ending.

I have some very good friends employed as CC at BA, and I don't wish to see them lose financially but this attitude of bringing down the company rather than compromising on an out dated pay and work structure is lunacy.

Many BA Cabin Crew are highly educated, but many are not (despite being very very good at what they do) but in the current climate it won't matter a jot as companies are not recruiting at the moment - may I suggest you would be wiser trying to save the jobs you do have by offering to work as efficiently as possible and taking some tactical cuts, and then, if it is unbearable when things pick up, do as I and many before have done, leave your cabin bag behind and go out and find a new job that you enjoy that pays to a level you need/want.

[stormin norman]

BA's Cabin Crew and Pilots and ground staff are up there with the best and contrary to what i read on these forums actually get on very well.There not all perfect but overall they give an excellent service in what is (currently) a premier full service airline.

WWs decision to offer severance to all his management was a clear indication that he has no confidence in his management team and in turn this is being fed down to the lower ranks.

Tough decisions have to be made in this climate but one does have to question his (and his Chairmans) man management skills and the way they go about their business.

Time for a change at the top ?

[mincer]

I love all this stuff about just putting up with cuts, blah , blah, savings have to be made- take some cuts and then if you don't like it - hang up your cabin bag!!! LOL

This sort of stuff is a joke.

Thirty years of Thatcherite brainwashing- just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.

What a load of neo-liberal claptrap.

Bosses exist to make profit for shareholders. That's all. They are the enemy. If possible, they would have us fly for £1 an hour.

But this is not about cabin crew- it's about protecting the rights of everyone to a decent living. That means ALL workers.

If BA promised to pay such and such, you might well have gone out and got a mortgage or paid for school fees etc whatever. Now they turn round and say- oh, we are going to take that away from you, after all the profit you have made for bosses over the years.

This is a DIRECT ATTACK on YOUR life cc - don't forget that for one second.

QUESTION: IF BA made such a huge profit a couple of years ago- why won't they do the same when the recession ends? Will the Ts&Cs then be restored? No. Of course not. What a surprise.....

You must fight all the way this time- this is the end game.

[wobble2plank]

stormin norman,

It is, as always, a very vocal minority placarding the more wise majority with disinformation gleaned from misinformation.

As to why flight crew are reading this (BASSA?) forum, well it is quite simple. BASSA are making direct threats against our employer. If we don't get what we want we are going to bring down the company? I have seen better constructed arguments in a junior school playground.

This whole sorry mess smells distinctly of the dying days of the toothless National Union of Miners that led to the death of the industry in the UK.

Personally I do not want to see that happen to my industry and I think that there are a vast amount of CC, FC, loaders, ground handlers, ground staff, managers, checkin stafff etc. etc. etc. who have very little sympathy with the 1500 from BASSA's 'biggest ever meeting'.

Good luck.

[wobble2plank]

Oddly enough, other CC don't find the NEW terms so onerous:


http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/368912-who-wants-work-ba-new-fleet.html

Infact they seem to find the T's & C's above most comparable airlines AFTER the cut.

It takes the text speak skills of a few BASSA die hards to twist the fabric of the economic crisis into a war call to bring the capitalist scum down!!!! (unless we retain our previous working conditions of course).

Sigh

[TopBunk]

Mincer's public profile - joined 3 April 2009

So, his communistic views will mean that he of course is not one of the BASSA top-feeding trolls. All his rhetoric about Thatcherism etc - well just remember that Bliar et al have been in power since 1997.

Seriously cabin colleagues, do not underestimate the resolve of Willie Walsh on this fight - he will (and can) put you on notice of contract which will probably result in you all having to re-apply for your jobs on the new contract rather than on a changed old contract. It is time for your 'leaders' in BASSA to demonstrate leadership rather than just whip up a frenzy only to let you down at the end of the day, as has recently been happening.

I have no doubt that as of yesterdays meeting that you all feel elated and buoyed up as to what can be achieved and that all will well. I have news for you all - IT WON'T.

WW is out for a result, you telling him by 1508 votes to 0 that you don't like him/should go/is not a nice little leprechaun will not change anything.

TEMPORARY cuts will not be tolerated by any group - yes it's tough to accept, but that is where we all are. Now tell your reps to represent you and NEGOTIATE the least painful way of delivering the savings before a more painful solution is IMPOSED on you.

[Human Factor]

....this is the end game.

This is probably the only statement on the thread which won't cause a disagreement.:rolleyes:

[wobble2plank]

Mincer,

I'm sorry but I don't think even you can follow your own rhetoric???

You harp on about the evils of Thatcherism coupled with the devil known as capitalism yet you insist on holding on to terms and conditions deeply rooted in both of those?

The current CC contract stems back from the day when only the wealthy could fly, they expected silver service in a pre Al Qaeda world and the most luxurious that wealth could buy. To entice people into this working environment the companies used money and perks, two of the corner stones of capitalism.

Now, you state that you despise those two words and they are trying to destroy you without grasping that your current employment, pay and terms and conditions are DIRECTLY A PRODUCT OF THEM.

Before spouting rhetoric you should at least be aware of where it comes from and what it means prior to attempting to foist it onto others in a Trotskyite manner of a union prole.

[mincer]

hmmm wonder where wobble works?

Thanks for the effort to inject a touch of armchair academia into this, what on earth Trotsky has to do with it goodness knows.

Neoliberals will destroy your life and others around the world in the name of globalisation and never-ending profit. that's their job.

The key point is:

When BA were making profit then this was not a problem.

Yes, let's take action to ride out the storm and once the good times return, we can go back to the usual Ts & Cs.

Please try not to listen to the management stuff or read the daily newspapers and propaganda which you are fed on a daily basis, try to think for yourself.

[wobble2plank]

Mincer,

What you fail to grasp in your ramblings is that the disparity between the BA cabin crew and all other cabin crew has been growing larger and larger every year. Many management structures have either not had the balls or the inclination to deal with it.

When the VA CC threatened a strike over T's & C's then the Bearded one quite pointedly told them if they wanted more pay for the same job then go to BA.

Unfortunately, as is often the case with cancer, the longer you ignore it the more insidious and deep rooted it becomes until it reaches a critical point where painful surgery and radical treatment is required.

In your 'lets ride out the bad times and return to the good times when it's over' just doesn't exist any more. BASSA have seen this coming over years and years and, like a petulant child have stuck their collective fingers in their ears and shouted 'na na na' until the nasty man has gone away. Constructive discussion could have had the company at a point by now where all departments were aligned in contract instead of a big sore thumb sticking up. Even the other threads on this board are saying they will work under the new T's & C's. LGW already do. It is just a minority of you can't see how well you've milked your hated 'neo liberal' machine.

Wake up and smell the coffee. WW will dispense 90 days no longer required on your old contract. Perfectly legal. If you wish to return to work then sign the new contract. It could have been so different.

Instead of your 'don't listen' approach, maybe you ought to have a look at the real world from over the parapet of your BASSA bunker. It has move on and left militants like you well, well behind.

[Travelling Public]

or in the case of Easyjet CC from today wake up and smell your own coffee. A number of papers reporting that Easyjet has stopped CC from using its tea and coffee and that they must know supply thier own.

Take the offer on the table before WW adds this to the list

[wobble2plank]

Oh, and you asked about Trotsky:

radicals who support Trotsky's theory that socialism must be established throughout the world by continuing revolution

Please tell me you are not spouting revolution trying to derail the process?

[marlowe]

The reapply for your own jobs under new terms and conditions has already been tried and tested by BA when it set up Cityflyer, oh and it worked! just ask any BA cityflyer crew. As for unions fighting it they all looked the other way and didnt want to get involved in BAs experiment.

[EYXW]

Thirty years of Thatcherite brainwashing- just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way,
:hmm: Is that intended to be serious - because the standard of living on a LHR cabin crew wage is sooooo terrible??? - Also I am sorry but I believe the Pilot's remuneration is in line with the costs involved with their training, and the level of training and scrutiny that they have to go through to carry out their jobs. Cabin Crew are great at what they do but the training is free and in no way as rigourous, also the skills required are almost entirely different - hence a different remuneration package.

Please try not to listen to the management stuff or read the daily newspapers and propaganda which you are fed on a daily basis, try to think for yourself.

Substitute "management" for Union and "propaganda" for communist manifesto and we could possibly say the same to you.

I heard the same quote's and unoriginal thought time and time again from Socialist Worker Students whilst I was at Uni.

[HighHeeled-FA]

That can not be serious - because it is so ridiculous.

Even nurses who work 10 times as hard as doctors don't whine about the fact that their pay is so poor compared to Doctor's. EYXW is right. You can not compare Pilot's wages and FAs wages.

I'll reiterate what I said on another thread. And that is BA CC have relatively the best T&Cs in the land, yet BA are far from being the best Airline.

Don't get me wrong, any reduction in pay is a terrible thing to have to deal with because your current mortgage and other expenditure is based on what you are getting now, so I definately understand the concern.

The wider picture though is that BA is far behind the middle-eastern and SE Asian carriers (not my opinion, read the rankings). BA should have done a "Beardy" years ago and reduced T&Cs to protect the company but becasue the hassle was too much during the boom years, it never happened. The truth now is that it needs to happen. Because BA can not compete with the Middle Eastern and SE asian carriers at present. This reduction in T&Cs needs to happen becasue I would hate to see another British Institution fall upon the scrap heap.

[keel beam]

I heard the same quote's and unoriginal thought time and time again from Socialist Worker Students whilst I was at Uni.

Socialist worker. That was my line of thinking of "Mincer"

Mincer you are so '70s.

The world has moved on. Work conditions and renumerations change.

I would agree that no one shoud have renumeration reduction, but there are ways of working smarter.

Personally I think Mincer is a wind up :yuk:.

It is down to the Cabin Crew Fraternity to tell BASSA to work for THEIR benefit and not the unions'. As mentioned earlier in the thread - get the best possible outcome you can, there will be pain.

The talk of bringing the company down is tosh! The smart Cabin Crew will see through this.

Don't let the Union run you, YOU run the Union.

My 2 cents worth.

[Juan Tugoh]

Bringing down the company is pure tosh. Cabin crew have bills to pay, mortgages to pay and family responsibilities to discharge. A few crew may not give a monkeys because they are independently wealthy, but I'm sure that's very few.

So would you rather be in employment working smarter or on the dole, the proud and powerful BASSA destroyed by having no crew to represent. It would be the union committing suicide to bring the company down; BASSA is the British Airways SSA for it to exist so must BA.

But to continue the logic, when BA is no more, what then? Re-employment by a phoenix like company on the same terms and conditions - only in never-never land where the children do not grow up. It is likely that even if the accountants do sell what remains of the assets to another company, say for arguments sake Virgin, what T&C's will they offer - oh yes, the one's they have already. That would be the best scenario, the other alternatives are far worse.

BA CC we are constantly told - and it is true - are generally well educated, thoughtful people. I am confident they will not follow people happy to lead the to the dole queue, as I said before, they have mortgages to pay. They have very little stomach for a strike, and a sick out will not work under this management.

So the Strike will leak, there will be plenty of cc that do not agree or cannot afford to agree with the vocal minority. In todays economic climate a job is a job, and it is this months mortgage and bills that will need to be paid.

The votes from Kempton Park mean very little and are suspiciously homogenous - no differences of opinion on 3 issues amongst 1500 people. Stalin would be proud, WW is not stupid he will look at those ballot results and smile.

[mincer]

Imagine if cc hijacked some of the airline forums in here- there would be hell to pay from those up front who have such an attitude.

I wish that we were getting 100 Gs and wouldn't have to worry about it.

Please don't mention the miners strike unless you really know what happened!!!!! You open yourself to looking foolish.

Anyway, guess we all just lay down and end up getting paid £5 an hour- strange who comes out of the woodwork and starts defending neo-liberal.
bosses - remember- it's better to fight them than to give in to them.

Please can we have a discussion amongst CC and not flight deck and managers, who's agenda is completely different- mind you, they are always right, have you noticed that?

[Skipness One Echo]

national flag carrier
Alitalia anyone?

[EYXW]

Please can we have a discussion amongst CC and not flight deck and managers, who's agenda is completely different- mind you, they are always right, have you noticed that?

The Flight CREW's agenda (in this instance) is the preservation of the airline and therefore their jobs, as is, I should imagine, most manager's and other employees. The SMT don't have to worry about such things I guess but they are employed to make a profit - not doing so without trying to change this will see them out of a job fairly soon, and whatever you might wish to believe we will always need senior managers to function and they will ALL be tasked with turning a profit. BA is not a Nationalised company any longer and pretending like it is will get you nowhere. Not to mention, I doubt the tax payers would have the stomach to fund inefficient practices in the current climate.

If your agenda, Mincer, is anything different then I suggest you may be in the minority.

As for the Miners strike - everyone has a different opinion of what happened and who was to blame so lets not start on that one!

It's 2009 not 1979 things have changed greatly the recession is far worse this time around and its (the economies) recovery will see oil prices soar once again - Airlines need to make permanent changes to survive.

Don't give up pay - work smarter, work harder but at least try to negotiate.

Mincer, you are a wind up really aren't you? or are you really serious??????

[PC767]

Heavens. What an acerbic bunch we have become. The last three pages require deletion.

From the start I have pointed out that Walsh's assault is not about saving an ailing airline, it is about a smash & grab on cabin crew T&Cs. I have repeatedly called upon my leadership to explain how the figure of £82million was reached. Some transparency. My union did as they were asked, and produced their own proposals which produced a greater saving than the company required. But £82million was a smokescreen, it may as well have been .82p.

The real intent was the creation of a new fleet, staffed by temporary workers, and starvation of the existing fleet's work - thus earnings.

And its commences in November.

The previous three weeks of intense negotiation have been for nothing. I read here that BASSA will not budge, have a say no attitude. They may have, but so has BA under the regime of Walsh. The argument may be that BASSA said no,no,no but clearly so have BA. I had an interesting chat with a senior manager at BA. Travelling east in first class, and perhaps one too many champers, (deliberately applied!), he let slip that several meetings with the union had been cancelled. Walsh had met with Francis and questioned why he was negotiating, there was nothing to negotiate. Whether the Walsh/Francis meeting occurred is hearsay, however it was confirmed that meetings with BASSA were cancelled, whilst at the same time Francis was telling crew that IfCE was involved in intense negotiations.

So, where from here. It seems that Walsh is revelling in his 'reasonable man gets nowhere' mantra and the unions remain defiant. Neither side will make the first move to compromise. Colleagues I speak with seem happy to take a temporary hit to see BA through the current economic downturn, but not a permanent change to their contracts. They can see the opportunistic nature of Walsh & Co. They also understand that the customer will not benefit. Savings made in the long term will not be passed onto our customers, you will not see a reduction in your ticket price. Nor, will you see any improvement in service. The rut which BA have dug is of no benefit to anyone, not passengers, not other employees, certainly not the cabin crew and not management. Walsh took a gamble and took a sledge hammer, at the worst possible time, to wield at his staff. A better CEO would have been diplomatically and tactfully chipping away, as indeed previous CEOs have done.

So who benefits from this stand-off and its culmination. Perhaps the leadership team and their bonus's, perhaps the shareholders. I would say if the gamble goes wrong, (which is looking highly likely), they too can join the list of those who will not benefit.

Change is constant, I think we all agree, not instantaneous. Major and instant changes lead to problems. This is a major change for me. My loyalty can only lie with my colleagues and unions. A £6000 reduction in my salary equates to 25%. Too much for me to maintain my lifestyle. (Which, incidentially, is not excessive. Just average.) A heart to heart conversation with my wife, and the agreement is that under the new terms I simply could not afford to work for BA. So should i just capitulate, as some, (any I make no apologies), smug commentators on here have suggested and maintain a job, after all jobs are not easy to come by at the moment. The problem of my finances will not change so you will understand why I need to fight to maintain what I have. Fact: You would.

I'm a Conservative, and have been since my days as a crad carrying young conservative. I believe in the doctrine of capitalism, but I also believe that capitalism must be played out carefully and discretely. Make it too blatent and Marx becomes a hero. It's not good to reveal the loss of 300 jobs on the same day that it is revealled the 'fatcat' senior managers are back on a £1000 a day. Winds people up. Alun Howells six days of work equals the repossession of my home.

And to finish. The views expressed on this forum are a minority, and beyond a considered change. I read the same people spouting the same views without consideration of what else is written. This is not a conversation, not a debate. There is a crisis brewing and my time is better spent dealing with the problems the crisis will bring. I cannot influence your views, but neither do I need to. So this will be my last post. My time here does not matter. I'll continue reading for a short while but ultimately I intent to cancel my membership of PPrune.

Happy flying.

[keel beam]

Where I am working at the moment, there is one individual who believes the airline owes him a living. He is very left wing,(a union rep) and a lazy bastard to boot.

But because of the local terms and conditions, he plays the game, and cannot be sacked. (OK so that might be a management problem) But the fact is, with your rantings, Mincer, (I cannot describe them as anything else) I perceive you to fit into his mould.

Am I on the right lines? What or who do you represent Mincer, it might give fellow reader/contributors an idea of why you are coming from where you are!

And by the way, who is hi-jacking this Cabin Crew forum?

[HighHeeled-FA]

mincer,

I am cc and I am here having a discussion. All industries at present are doing their best to keep alive their jobs for the future. Car industries going down to a 3 day week for example.

You really need to look at the bigger picture. For BA to survive, they need to compete in the market and the only way they can do that is by looking at what other carriers' T&Cs are to reduce costs. If I moan, then the only words of sympathy I get are "Go across the road to BA, no hard feelings".

The truth is that T&Cs cuts for even the big legacy carriers are occuring not just for CC but also for the flight deck. Take easyJet for example. They have always been that slightly better in terms of service than Ryanair, their nearest competitor. But since MOL had reduced the airline to nothing more than a bus service (which people don't seem to mind when you see how "successful" they are) EJ have had to do the same thing - starting off with the limit on how much water pilots can drink and getting CC to bring their own tea-bags!

I can't speak for all CC but you don't do this for the money. I only fly Long Haul, haven't had a relationship that has lasted more than 3 weeks in the last 4 years and get less money than my friends in an office job working as 7 quid an hour secretaries. But I wouldn't change it because I enjoy what I'm doing.

Don't tell the bearded guy this but I have worked out that I can forfeit about 75p per hour before I would have to call it a day because I simply could not afford to live! Up to that point, I would not mind a reduction as I would have my job protected and hopefully would have safeguarded a lot of my colleagues.

[EYXW]

From the start I have pointed out that Walsh's assault is not about saving an ailing airline, it is about a smash & grab on cabin crew T&Cs.

This is, I believe, where BASSA and most other people part ways on their beliefs.

£2.5million a day - that means that BA may as well be burning £30 every second - If BASSA believe this is sustainable, then they are sorely misguided. If you believe that the 10% profit made last year was something that would have happened this year if their had been no recession then you are misguided BA was predicting a low to no profit well before recession became the talk of the day.

BA isn't yet an ailing Airline but as I have said before - this attitude of it not being something that could happen to us is dangerous and the main reason that I am disappointed in a Union that would have once had my support.

[TightSlot]

There were a small number of other threads in this forum on the same subject - they have ben closed: We'll just use this thread for related discussions please.

Please keep the discussions away from Miners Strikes, Thatcherism, Socialism and the imminent demise of the Capitalist system: Fascinating though these subjects may be to some of you, they are essentially Jet Blast material.

Finally, several posts have been deleted because they were written in Nokia Text Speak, or contained so little punctuation that they were virtually unreadable.

[wobble2plank]

I always love that. Why don't other people leave us to have our debate. On the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network. Which, if the debate only affected you and your peers would be perfectly reasonable.

Unfortunately you are trying to turn a workforce against their employers for the ends of propping up terms and conditions for which even your own peer group had deemed extravagant. I feel you have missed the point here.

Many of the discussions held on this thread have revolved around the fact that a minority, and it is a minority, of militant CC are beating a big drum, attempting to rally the troops for a call to IA. This damages the forward bookings of the company I also work for and thus damages its potential future. So, to summarize I too have a vested interest in the outcome of these 'talks' and militant workers constantly throwing out the 'neo liberal' waffle aren't helping to get a viable alternate on the table.

If you wish to turn your energies to solving the situation rather than to aggravating it then you might just make some headway. The time now is to engage with the company and, like any 'bartering' situation see what is ludicrous, what can be taken and achieved and what needs further discussion. Be very wary of throwing the lot out because BASSAs' stance of 'no one will want to work under those conditions' appears to be somewhat flawed, even your own industry branch is saying so.

(P.s. I stood at the 'coalface' of the miners strike with my Uncle, a Nottinghamshire pit worker and have experienced what transpired for myself. Not pleasant but, sadly, inevitable.)

I really do wish the process well. I think the vast majority of LHR CC can see it for what it is, which is a contractual re-adjustment in financial hard times. Once the recession is past, as long as we are still standing then we can start from scratch and negotiate improvements. A difficult process however one that the Flight Crew have already accepted will be required. Add to that that we are also going through performance related scrutiny and per capita have almost double to loose, we are still, all in this together.

Wise up. It's either new contract or the dole and you won't see WW in the queue.

[wobble2plank]

Tightslot

You've deleted most of mincers posts that were the 'glue' holding the thread together at this point.

Oh well no great loss.

Please feel free to delete this.

Thx

[Emma Gemma]

This is a very typical behaviour for BASSA. Regardless what the company proposes (unless it has a positive impact on its members), BASSA says no. One should ask themselves who is running the airline after all. Is it BASSA?

[bermudatriangle]

Wobble, i cannot believe how misguided you are in your assumption that anything given away now, due to the harsh economic trading conditions,can then be negotiated back from BA management when profitability returns.Anyone who knows anything about industrial relations within BA,knows full well,that benefits and conditions,surrendered,are never,ever,re-instated and that's a fact.I believe the union are prepared to make "temporary" concessions to alleviate the financial pressure on the airline,that we all appreciate.On the understanding that when trading conditions improve,these temporary measures will be recinded.The company will not agree to that proposal,as they are determined to undermine the current benefits enjoyed by cabin crew once and for all.An opportunistic attack,i have heard it described as,on employees terms and conditions.BA cabin crew are not out to destroy the company,nor are they oblivious to the economic conditions in which the company operates.Sensible compromise is the way to get through the current financial situation,not an aggressive attack on employees long term livelihood.That's my take on the situation,i of course expect to be corrected.Good luck to all involved,i hope common sense prevails from both management and union.

[wobble2plank]

Bermudatriangle,

I know exactly how difficult, in fact nigh on impossible, the task of negotiation will be after the event. However we all need to face the reality that this is an extremely difficult time ahead and difficult negotiating positions may be all we have left after the downturn has run its inevitable course.

Everyone is patently aware that BA runs a one way T's & C's ratchet. A bit like the governments petrol tax system that only ever goes up. I am certainly not naive enough to think that anything post 2009 will be remotely easy nor that the management will look back and say 'hey guys, you really bailed us out back there, here's a bonus'.

However, when you are out of the starting blocks with T's & C's that are far, far, far above other departments, carrying block payments, meal payments, lateness credit, CAT turnarounds (the CAT doesn't even exist anymore but the payments do!) etc. how can you NOT expect to be in the firing line for rationalisation?

As you have alluded to, sensible, adult discussion over how the targets can be achieved with the minimum hit to the employees is the way ahead. What is sad is that a small minority of CC, possibly drip fed by BASSA throw the 'bring the company down' banner and that worries everyone else. The vast majority of CC have a well balanced and considered opinion of the situation and are hoping that a mutually conducive outcome can be achieved. I hope it goes well as I like the company and I like the crews I fly with.

p.s. Paragraphs help the reader immensely!

[Dezso]

I have no idea how to copy links into a post but I did read this line and smile.

just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.

Well first of all its all about supply and demand the Pilots will have better pay etc as it is a skilled job, it takes years to qualify as a Pilot and I understand it is very expensive. So really it is silly to compare such a skilled job with another role that is to be frank an unskilled role. I am sure many crew will be insulted at this but think about it, how long does it take to train a crew member? 6-8 weeks I am guessing.

In reading this Post I have real concerns for BA as an organization and I suspect that many people here are posting in the guise of crew from other airlines, praying BA go on strike and then bankrupt, but trying hard to stir up emotions.

The bottom lines is that at the moment it is survival of the fittest for many organizations and many will only survive if others fail. In my organization there has been many people made redundant as we desperately try to cut costs and remain as competitive as we can. If we sat back and did nothing we would be out of business in a few months!

And as for this talk of this recession ending soon, I think you need to realign your expectations. The world government's have borrowed lots of money and we will all have to pay that back, and when people get back on their feet they will probably try and clear up arrears on credit cards and mortgages, not be flying around the world in Club World. Many businesses will be the same, they are losing Millions of Euros and they will keep very tight budgets for long after the recession has ended.

I fear for BA, your unions sound out of touch to me and I think you are all playing a dangerous game!

[pinkaroo]

Seems to me there a number of distinct groups here. Those who are current BA CC who actually perform the role everyone else has an opinion about, BA flight crew who have themselves been through rationalisation but who enjoy salaries allowing them to buy big houses, second families, share porfolios based on advice received at the golf club etc with spare cash not committed to the immediate needs of the family, others in peripheral managerial airline roles with an "expert" opinion based on their life view/prejudices enabling them to ally themselves to their perceived friend Willie and then of course the all important "also rans" staffed by wannabe airline execs ( currently in Ops etc), BA lgw crew and ex lhr temps busting for another go. The BA CC deal with all the trials of managing a life in the South East of England with perpetual time zone changes, severe social disruption and the joys of slf without the benefit of a remuneration package they can hang onto although it was what they were promised when they joined. In addition they are lectured on how good they have it and how important they give it up for the sake of the company by groups earning five times as much! Shame on you. I keep reading my ATPL syllabus and I cannot find any mention of airline management in the course. Where did you guys go to learn it? Have I missed something?

[overstress]

Pinkaroo, if you can't contribute to the debate why post your prejudices against pilots and others, it serves no useful purpose.

What I haven't seen is much in the way of suggestions as to how cc may minimise the pain to themselves, I have seen plenty of "well we are BA cabin crew so how dare anyone else have an opinion" which is pure militant BASSA-speak.

BA cabin crew don't have a monopoly on the job, there are plenty of posters on this forum who work as crew for other companies who know exactly how lucrative the job in BA can be for some.

BTW I am a BA pilot with a small 3-bedroom house, no 'second family' (whatever that is), no shares and I don't play golf, so please don't stereotype us, TVM.

[pinkaroo]

Overstress, Consider for a moment the following. You take home £1800 and need every penny of it to pay a mortgage, a car loan, rising fuel and food costs. You have a job you thought meant you knew would pay you what you agreed and then along comes a little Irishman who decides to use a financial climate of fear to extract your future financial security from you in order to raise the share price and fulfill the bonus criteria. You become concerned and then aware that around you are the "chattering classes" all looking down their nose at you for being in possession of T & C's they don't have because he took them off them. Now do you see where I am coming from?. If you don't have the shares, golf clubs, big house and second family, don't worry you will. You must be new. Cheer up. It will happen!

[6chimes]

It may be worth adding that BA cc have enjoyed better T&C's than very other cc in job in the country, so BA have profited from cherry picking the best cc from all those airlines.

Now those cabin crew that gave up their seniority, increments etc. to start all over again and work for the UK's premier airline without taking a pay cut that would prevent them from doing so (mortgages, loans etc..) are now facing a reduction in earnings that may well find them in a financial position that is less than they gave up. Yet BA can profit from having the best crew in the country at the same rate as every one else.

Just wait a moment before you slaughter me for suggesting that all BA crew are better than everyone else, they aint! The point is this; because they have the best T&C's they can attract everyone and therefore select the best. And if you think about it, where have most of all your best crew gone from your airline?......... If they can, they do!

It may be fair to suggest that anyone else that joins BA should be paid the industry rate because no-one with any seniority in any other airline will bother applying, so there is nothing to lose, only BA won't get a chance to employ tried and tested damn good crew.

Certainly times are changing and sure, BA management are going to milk it as much as possible but you do need to negotiate and offer a professional and constructive compromise that will see you through these tough times whilst still offering you a career (not just a job) when times get better.

6

[bermudatriangle]

At the heart of this issue,is the role of BA cabin crew.
To those who do not do the job,let me give you an insight. Longhaul crew report for duty, on a 747, 15, sometimes 16 crew,depending on the route. At the briefing they are introduced to each other, more often than not,total strangers. Briefing on the flight, booked loads, special passengers, flight time, safety and security questions, aviation medicine, emergency senarios, all run through with thoroughness.
Proceed to the aircraft,complete safety and security checks and prepare for passenger boarding.

The team then provide the inflight product to the passengers, usually in 4 different class of cabin, sometimes 3 classes, again dependent on aircraft type and route. Customers cover the total social spectrum, their needs and expectations are just as diverse, all expect to have their needs met and hopefully surpassed. The inflight surveys taken on each flight constantly put the cabin crew at the top of the customer experience, making up for shortfalls elsewhere in the overall travel experience.

On a 12 hour flight anything can happen,from dealing with intoxicated passengers,to sadly, a death on board, all of which are dealt with professionally by the crew, as they are trained to do so. The cabin crew often recover situations where customers are dissatisfied. As the norm, they strive to offer exceptional customer service and do everything possible to satisfy customer demands. Service matters more than ever as companies strive to maintain their customer base and cabin crew play a vital role in maintaining loyalty from regular customers.

To dismiss their role as a financial burden that needs to be adjusted to the market rate, makes the terrible mistake of failing to realise the contribution they make to the success of the company,day in and day out. The diversity of the crew, their multitude of skills and in most cases, real passion for the role and looking after their customers cannot be underestimated.
The workforce is unique and worth far more than the market rate which is the only target in managements eyes. In a customer service industry,the employees make or break the company. In BA's case, the crew are vital to its success. I hope that the management realise the contribution cabin crew make and stop seeing them as just another cost to be slashed.

[overstress]

pinkaroo you missed my point with diving straight in talking about take-home pay. I will repeat my contribution, namely, where are the suggestions from crew which could help make the savings required with a minimal impact on pay?

And no, not new to BA, (10 years+) I just have a very modest lifestyle which will not change despite your confident predictions. And I will never take up golf :rolleyes:

[6chimes]

That is the same for any member of cabin crew at any airline. To read your post and suggest that their dedication is any different to yours is crass at the very least. I do not change my assessment of the situation at BA for many of the crew employed there, as I have stated in my previous post.

An attitude of superior indifference to all other cabin crew that do exactly what you have said BA crew do and thus deserve your T&C's is wrong. You need to re-evaluate your argument.

6

[pinkaroo]

And I bermuda triangle, salute you for the job you do! Perhaps others should pause and consider what you just told them. Good luck to you all! The Europeanisation of this beautiful land sickens me. A determined policy to downgrade standards to the lowest common denominator have meant quality has been replaced by quantity. Come on FC. Step out from behind your Daily Telegraghs and take a stand. Don't be part of the problem. I fly BA because you chaps keep me safe,and because you get me there on time. I am as proud of the drivers up the front as I am of the CC down the back.

[Litebulbs]

Market Rate.

This is what your management team are looking at. Market rate is not just about pay though. A car is just not a car. If a BA crew members product on offer, is better than who they are being compared against, then the market rate for a cabin crew member (average) across the UK, is not a valid measure.

If you can justify your wage against your competitors in the UK, then WW is being unreasonable. The law does not look at your mortgage and standard of living though. However, if a business just decided to reduce your wage, they would also be acting unreasonably, especially if there were other methods whereby costs could be controlled.

Should a BA B747 captain be on any more than a Virgin B747 captain? Come to think of it, should a BA captain be on more than an Easy captain? I would hope not. I do not know the figures, so I cannot comment with any facts to back me up. I would imagine that an Easy captain has a worse scheduling agreement, just because they are a newer company and have not had the time to establish a benefits package in line with a legacy carrier.

However, the crew are the face of the product. They have an active involvement in achieving repeat business. All pilots takeoff and land, no matter who pays their wage.

[wobble2plank]

Pinkaroo,

Can you please, please please stop trying to complain about disparity between CC and FC pay, terms and conditions. There have been many hotly debated threads on the matter and they are not, in any way shape or form comparable.

I don't want to side track the thread so I will keep it as brief as possible. There are a very small minority who, whenever T's & C's are discussed believe there should be parity between FC and CC. I am happy to say that most of the intelligent, often degree holding CC, see it for exactly what it is, which is remuneration for the years of studying and flying for the licence and the constant checks required to keep them current. Coupled with the responsibility, placed upon the Captain by the company, passengers and insurers with a $250 million aircraft, crew and passengers.

Pinkaroo, if you are indeed doing or have done your ATPL studies as you seem to intimate then you will realise that, as with most courses, the detail of the course is for the attainment of the licence. Once achieved the real learning begins with most pilots hopping RHS-LHS from turbo prop to regional jet and then finally to international carrier. There are exceptions which are the cadets or Self Sponsored Pilots who have to pass a rigorous selection process even before touching an aircraft. As to qualifications, I do indeed have an MBA, which comes in handy whilst watching the junior managers trying to keep all the blocks from falling. I am not, however, neither will I ever become airline management. I have left that far behind.

It is market forces at play here. The CC in BA have long enjoyed above market rates compared with their peers operating similar aircraft on similar routes with similar cabin configurations. Some might say they should have been aware of that and the events unfolding around them and possibly put something aside. That is not for me to say. What I will say is that this was bound to come. Anything above the parapet in this economic storm is going to get weathered away and the best thing that the unions can do now is try and work with the company to build the parapet a bit higher whilst accepting that there will be some loss.

[overstress]

Bermudatriangle

Your essay describes your job but it also describes cabin crew everywhere. However I did recognise many parts of it which apply to BA crew. You are probably insulting colleagues in other airlines though by your insistence you are the best. What are you basing this on?! In my recent experience with other airlines their crew are just as competent and good at their jobs.

Customer survey results are great, but who chooses the customer... the CSD, who is hardly likely to give out a form to someone who is kicking off because his special meal isn't on board... :)

BTW, You missed out the scramble to finish the service so the cabin blinds can be pulled down and bunk rest can begin.... on a daylight New York! ;)

I write this not to antagonise but to point out that WW is coming after your t's & c's. Cabin crew are recognised as the best remunerated group in BA and you will find yourselves under pressure from mgt very soon, you guys need to think of ways to be more efficient to make the budget savings they are demanding. :sad:

[EYXW]

Best remunerated given your job within BA - for example Willie Walsh is actually paid less than most people in a similar position across the world.

The Pilots at BA are paid more than at VS I believe but then VS are limited to working 750hrs a year as opposed to 900. Compare the Nigels (sorry Chaps) to airline Pilots at competitors across on the continent and you will find they are, more often than not, paid less.

This Cannot be said of BA Cabin Crew. That is the point people are getting at.

NOW TO CLARIFY - I don't begrudge BA CC that for a second BUT because of this fact you are, as a group, directly in the firing line fro cuts and the only thing you can do is negotiate to protect as much of what you have as is possible (there will be some sacrifices, but to think this hasn't happened to many departments at BA is wrong), IA, or its threat, will only hurt BA's balance sheet further and therefore strengthen the resolve of Willie Walsh.

I have not said once that anyone should happily hand over their wages BUT BASSA is going about this situation completely the wrong way if it wants to achieve anything other than financial strife for BA, or, a step up of the speed at which adverse changes (for CC) come about.

[wobble2plank]

Just to get this into perspective.

All departments have been given cost savings measures. Some have been told how they are to achieve them, some not.

Flt Ops has been give a per capita saving well in excess of the IFS saving. Whilst this may be a smaller percentile loss of gross pay it still is in excess of IFS. Add to the mix that very few pilots are on the magical top wage layer. In fact we still have many Self Sponsored Pilots who would be very happy with an £1800 take home before and cost savings measures kick in. Any cuts will affect all personnel and all departments are affected.

Engineering has had manpower reductions. Possible redundancies in IM, overseas staff, call centres, Marketing, Sales, Check-in, customer services, managerial staff, tele-services, acquisitions, hedging services, ground handling, loading, allocations, baggage handling the list goes on. The push back drivers have been told they are to lose their department altogether and be merged with loading. That's after some of these guys have worked for years to get to their positions, a position which requires great skill and professionalism.

All of those departments plus smaller ones have been given their targets to meet and their pain to take. As far as I know they are all gearing up to shoulder their collective responsibility in the current climate.

Now, consider their annoyance when a vocal minority group from on department start crowing that they would rather see the company taken down, the company that we all work for, rather than take a cut in their, already acknowledged, over market forces terms and conditions.

I will leave you to think where the sympathy, from both other employees and the press, will be?

[Dumbreck]

Wobble2plank...Good post.
I worked in a call centre which was closed nearly 5 years and then eventually got a job at a Regional Airport which had been recently outsourced with regards to ground handling.
All in all there were several 100 BA employees who had given years & years of good service who found themseves with life changing decisions to make.
Many other departments have taken the hit over the years and it would appear logical now that every department takes their share of the pain in order for us all to succeed.
My partner is crew so I take no joy in facing uncertain times & I also would say that the crew life would not be for me.

[coloncruiser]

I think this new contract looks great.I never got any good trips in the past.

[ptc]

Overstress:

Well said about the mad scramble for putting the window blinds down and getting onto crew rest!! Almost 99% of flights I did, the most important thing was crew rest, I have even done a service in the dark cause the purser didn't want to wake anyone, but ended up doing it all again on the 40min call!!! Its absolutely NUTS!!

NO disrespect guys, but the passenger comes first, not how long it takes you to 'throw' out a service and get on rest!!!

And yes, all cabin crew in every airline are there to do the same job, the justification for exceptional pay at BA is what exactly??? I accept when you are at the top end of the better airlines that there may be a small differenece, but come the diff at BA is huge!!!

[pinkaroo]

PTC, I am gravely concerned you feel guilt for all the money you received during your 11 months with BA WW. I have a conscience soothing plan for you. Get the cash, put it in an envelope and send it to Waterside marked for the attention of Willie himself.Mark it "Salvation Fund." I have to say you do sound most conscientious. I hope you are in the holdpool for another go at it. Let's hope the T & C s are more to your liking next time. Hang on a minute, how come you did'nt avoid all that cash and head on down to LGW where the money is more to your liking?

[ptc]

Pinkaroo:
Its not about guilt, im mearly putting my opinion across on this subject. I have really enjoyed my time at BA, but as I have already said, Ive worked for other major carriers and in comparison, the T+C's at BA are extremley generous!! Im not grudging anyone taking that, but I can see where the savings could be made!!

FYI- If I was closer to LGW then I would have gone there!! As I would much prefer mixed fleet flying out of a smaller base, but hey ho, thats all down to where I live im afraid, not money!!
Oh and whilst we are on the subject, I recently flew out of LGW and the crew were fantastic and didn't have any grumbles about how their life is 'so bad' down there!! I think most actually quite like it!!!

Finally, yes I am conscientious, always have been and always will be , even after 15 years of flying, thats not a bad thing is it???

[pinkaroo]

Wobble, I am not seeking to compare T&Cs for the sake of it. I just want you to realise that if you have some financial " fat" you can afford to slim if you really must, and I hope you do not have to, but when you are already fully financially committed the cause and effect is more traumatic. As for the importance of Aircraft Commander, well you earned it, good luck to you but do not forget others are not so financially rewarded but still want to live to a good standard. There is a considerable gap in the relationship between either side of the flightdeck door and blame can be laid in many directions. All I am concerned about is that in the rush to seemingly appease the management of this company those who are seemingly least respected are not trampled underfoot.

[wobble2plank]

Always those who look at people who earn more as being easier able to afford the loss. Sorry, but that just isn't true. We all live to our means, we don't naturally all live on the bread line and then place whatever 'fat' is over into a big 'lets keep that for when the downturn comes' bank account.

I think you will find that the cost cutting will affect everyone, just those who have larger wages will have bigger bills to pay and as a percentage of total income, exactly the same pain.

[pinkaroo]

Wobble, I will reiterate my position. I do not wish you to lose a bean of your earnings. I expect your contract to be honoured. I just don't want to see others, more financially vulnerable, robbed by a company with one eye on the cheap shoddy contracts endured by the employees of the likes of MOL etc. This country has been intentionally dumbed down and short changed by European practices. That sh!t Blair was allowed to turn us over by the short sighted voters who believed he cared about them. I bet MOL and WW enjoy a glass of the black stuff and swap tips on how to screw the last penny, on a short term basis, from a flying cash cow. There has been alot of talk about overpaid BA crew. We all know the cost of living in this overtaxed corner of the country. Is it just possible the crews of other companies are being underpaid?

[worldoffers]

Very good point . it made very good reading to know that BA PILOTS lost the battle against BA with regards to Holiday pay and for the third time too . very good to know that only few months ago , BA pilots were threatening the company with strikes when they were about to launch open skies .
How much does a BA Captain get when drafted?
why does BA need a captain and 2 CO pilots on certain routes ?
BA MUST BE LOOKING AT ALL AREAS , AND IF IT HAPPENS TO Flight attendants , it could happen to Flight crew and nothing can stop them regarding of any agreement in place .
This is just an observation .
also another area is hotels , why should the union be involved , all you need is a room ? why executive rooms ? why Internet ? why in the centre of town ? why Breakfast when you paid ?
is it true that BA flight crew still get an allowance to pay for drinks for all his team?
Is it true that BA flight crew only pay very little to go on flights on a jump seat but as they email their collegues they get a better seat.
Speaking to a Virgin Captain and an easy jet pilot I was told that BA pilots are paid a lot more than they are and they don t get half of the perks .
the bizarre thing I heard is that if BA employs and pay low cost salaries , means they won t be enough money paid to the pension fund as they earn very little so their contribution would be very minimal and that it could lead to further pension deficits to the BA pot .
The worrying thing i heard that if BA go on a low cost model , it will no longer be a blue chip company and it could turn to British Airways ltd , rather than PLC .

[MrBunker]

How much does a BA Captain get when drafted?

As with all overtime for flight crew, it depends on how senior said Captain is, and how many hours the trip attracts. If you're looking for a bite here, I'm a little unsure of what your point is.

why does BA need a captain and 2 CO pilots on certain routes ?

For exactly the same reasons that certain routes require the crew to have a minimum of 3 hrs horizontal rest. It's a mandated requirement from the CAA to extend duty. Oh, and before anyone says we get more crew than scheme requires on certain routes, well, by the same token we carry more cabin crew than are the legally mandated minimum

BA MUST BE LOOKING AT ALL AREAS , AND IF IT HAPPENS TO Flight attendants , it could happen to Flight crew and nothing can stop them regarding of any agreement in place .

Indeed, and I rather think that's been the thrust of many of the posts on here

also another area is hotels , why should the union be involved , all you need is a room ? why executive rooms ? why Internet ? why in the centre of town ? why Breakfast when you paid ?
is it true that BA flight crew still get an allowance to pay for drinks for all his team?

Why shouldn't the unions be involved. All of us (and I mean the whole team on the a/c) need more than just a room. That room has to be quiet, comfortable and dark. Not all hotels fulfill that requirement. Executive rooms? Not a stipulation at all. Sometimes they are given, but they're certainly not in any contractual agreement (and yes, I'm aware of the upgrade agreement but no hotel is obliged to offer better rooms to any crew member).

We don't get free internet. Simple as. Some hotels offer it but, again it's not contractual.

Centre of town? Well, because, believe it or not, airport hotels aren't any cheaper and are a lot more vulnerable to interruption of contract. After all, which airport hotel wouldn't take the big money for their rooms when a number of flights are cancelled due to weather, for example?

Free breakfast? Not in years. Not in absolutely years. I seem to remember it happened last at LGW and that was dispensed with after the last pay deal.

Is it true that BA flight crew only pay very little to go on flights on a jump seat but as they email their collegues they get a better seat.

Two questions there. Captains may use an ID61 for domestic jumpseats. That's it. No-one else gets anything other than staff travel, SFO, CSD, PSR or STD/SDSS. As to your second point, everyone (and I mean everyone from engineers, check-in, cabin crew to the flight crew you strive so desperately to make a point about) e-mails, texts, writes to, their colleagues in an attempt to be made more comfortable on the flight. Don't tell me for a moment you wouldn't do the same.

Speaking to a Virgin Captain and an easy jet pilot I was told that BA pilots are paid a lot more than they are and they don t get half of the perks .

Yes and VS pilots (I believe but will happily be corrected) work to a 750hr contract and we work to 900hrs. That's 10 JFK and back a year more. Averaged out, the pay's similar and the perks are almost identical. Still, that never stops the bar fuelled notion that the grass is always greener and BA pilots do 1 trip a month between bathing in Krug and washing the Ferrari using £50 notes as chamois leathers. Who am I kidding? Wash my own Ferrari? Perish the risible notion.

the bizarre thing I heard is that if BA employs and pay low cost salaries , means they won t be enough money paid to the pension fund as they earn very little so their contribution would be very minimal and that it could lead to further pension deficits to the BA pot .

Not an issue. Understand that the pension effectively exists outwith the airline and the pension with a deficit has been closed to new joiners for some years now. New entrants bear the full fiscal responsibility for their pension. Notwithstanding that, even if your postulation were true, BA wouldn't care. Every time the pension goes into serious freefall, we renegotiate the terms and conditions of the pension, not the salary.

The worrying thing i heard that if BA go on a low cost model , it will no longer be a blue chip company and it could turn to British Airways ltd , rather than PLC

Only difference I can find between the two is that to be a PLC you must have in excess of £50,000 in publicly traded shares. I think we can all agree that BA have a smidge more than that floating around the FTSE. In fairness also, I don't think we can regard BA as blue chip any more, in fact not for a long long time. Our credit rating with the likes of S and P is in the toilet and not likely to improve any time soon. That's the reality of the situation we all face as employees of this airline.

Well, there we are, I bit didn't I? But your post exemplifies one of the biggest problems we have in BA. Buckets of hearsay, lots of envy (in all directions, I hasten to add) and the most dysfunctional set of relationships I've ever seen outside of the king of scratters' world that is Jeremy Kyle.

Frankly if I'd half the money that people on here would like to think I had, I'd be gone from BA in a heartbeat.

[flapsforty]

MrBunker, that reads like a comprehensive explanation, thank you for providing it.

It´s also the LAST post on this Cabin Crew forum thread which will be dedicated to pilot pay.
The issue here is changes to the BA CC remuneration package.
CC as in Cabin Crew.

Same goes for contributions from pilots and other non-CC who have an opinion about the current package.
You have been provided with ample opportunity to have your say.
You have availed yourselves of that, extensively so.
Your points have been explained clearly, your opinions are now known.

Since contributions by non CC are now threatening to outnumber contributions from CC, his thread will until further notice sharpen its focus to discussion of Project Columbus by Cabin Crew.
Legible posts still a stipulation. ;)

Thank you.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

I can't be troubled to read through all the posts, but what I do say is from a passenger's viewpoint: I fly BA because of the superior service and if your master's plan to cut your numbers how can you continue to provide that superior service?

[HighHeeled-FA]

Justin,

whilst this is not a dig at any of BA CC, a few being very good friends of mine, you will find (as I have said a few times here) that BA will not be found in the top 5 of the recent rankings published.

However the airlines above them have lower T&Cs - doing the job better and cheaper. The fact that BA are based in the UK with higher charges - taxes etc unfortunately does not warm the cockles of the accountants hearts.

WW knows this.

[pinkaroo]

High Heels, I thought BA were voted best Transatlantic carrier?

[bermudatriangle]

Not forgetting the glowing reports for customer satisfaction with Terminal 5.Also record punctuality figures for T5 over the last few weeks.BA have many things to be proud of,their inflight service and crew being one of them.

[HZ123]

A nice article about WW in this weeks Spectator. He does seem switched on and I fear we may have to lump it in the end.

[Classic]

High Heels, I thought BA were voted best Transatlantic carrier?

It's fairly well known that those awards for 'Best This' and 'Best That' are largely irrelevant. They are normally awarded by industry organisations (eg publications) which have a vested interest in promoting certain companies over others, especially when they spend large amounts of money with that publication on advertising for example.

Companies don't rely on the awards they receive to indicate customer satisfaction or service shortcomings, proper market research is required.

Awards are good for a bit of PR, and that's about it - they're useless in trying to establish true performance.

[L337]

that BA will not be found in the top 5 of the recent rankings published.

Having made that statement, now provide the evidence and the link to substantiate that remark.

[bermudatriangle]

The communication from the trade unions states that a joint meeting was held with BA on thursday.All unions representing the combined workforces and management proposed several "temporary" measures to help BA through ,what is a "temporary" financial downturn,covering the next 2 years.This was approved by all unions,with the exception of BALPA.I find this hard to understand,as at times like this,a united position carries a lot more weight than a fragmented one.The proposals suggested an equal sharing of temporary cost savings across all departments,a fair position in my opinion.The unions are awaiting BA's response to their proposal,let's hope a sensible compromise can be agreed upon.

[Da Dog]

I understand from someone whom was there that WW chose to leave with the words

"I don't think I will bother to respond, however if you think this is a temporary problem, you are in another world"

BALPA were not made privy to the UNITEs ideas prior to the meeting so a bit difficult to give them a blank cheque in terms of support.

Any more untruths from the BASSA forum you wish to be quashed bermudatriangle?

[pinkaroo]

Can anybody give an accurate account of the process of benchmarking and list the factors taken into account in arriving at the figure the company then takes forward to the union meeting please?

[GaryHumphreys]

You need to know the result of Benchmarking before you propose it as a negotiating tool.

Gaz

[QRS]

BALPA were not made privy to the UNITEs ideas prior to the meeting so a bit difficult to give them a blank cheque in terms of support.



So what is BALPAs position regarding BAs proposals? I find it incredible that UNITE and the GMB did not brief BALPA in advance. How difficult can it be to ensure all parties attending a workng group are prepared?

[pinkaroo]

QRS, You assume cooperation exists then?

[QRS]

No, I'm not assuming anything. Cooperation probably only exists when it suits. The only assumption I am making is that Da Dog's post is accurate.
That being the case, cooperation or not, GMB and UNITE would have nothing to lose by keeping BALPA in the picture. Whether BALPA then choose to offer their support....that's another matter.

[HZ123]

British Airways has been voted the UK's most trusted airline.

In an annual survey by Reader's Digest, BA comfortably beat Virgin


From the Mail on Sunday (April12). If it is in the RD it must be right!

[Classic]

So what is BALPAs position regarding BAs proposals? I find it incredible that UNITE and the GMB did not brief BALPA in advance. How difficult can it be to ensure all parties attending a workng group are prepared?
The Unite proposals to BA didn't include proposals for the pilots, so it would be difficult for Balpa to make public support for proposals specific to other work groups only.

Balpa don't negotiate through the BATUC anyway.

[Crunchy]

Lets forget, for a moment that we're talking about BA.

Lets pretend we all work for 'Waterstones' for example.

You've worked there for 10 years or so. Very diligently.

Your bosses (whom are paid to manage the business) make several c***-ups (all the time actually) that end up costing the business nearly £500m. - between opening up a new store that goes t**s up and then gets a fine for not operating ethically. This is also PR disaster and the company is disgraced.

He calls you in, as says 'we've gotta save money' so I'm gonna cut you wages by £500 A MONTH forever. Other departments will suffer a pay freeze for a couple of years, but your changes will be permanent.

Would you say 'hey great idea' or would you defend your position?

A simple yes or no answer will do.

:sad:

[EYXW]

If that were what is happening I would say no - but it isn't and I think you know that really.

[EYXW]

Quote:
that BA will not be found in the top 5 of the recent rankings published.
Having made that statement, now provide the evidence and the link to substantiate that remark.

WORLD'S BEST CABIN STAFF 2009
Rank
Airline
1
Malaysia Airlines
2
Asiana Airlines
3
Thai Airways
4
Singapore Airlines
5
Cathay Pacific

© Skytrax


That aside really as has been mentioned these are kinda irrelevant awards - however for a fact all the crew on that list do their jobs for a lot less than either of the two old fleets at LHR.

But as has been said this isn't a debate over how much you get paid it is a debate about how efficient you are as employees.

EF don't work hard enough ona a day to day basis though are efficient during disruption. WW are the opposite - this is what the company have said and what to be honest nobody can argue with - solution change this and then maybe the other departments' staff may be more behind your cause.

[Crunchy]

Da Dog, what are we supposed to do? Accept it? If they were gunning for the pilots in the same fashion, I doubt you would all lay over and why should you?

Even without BASSA preaching, the writting is on the wall mate. 'New Fleet'. New contract. We've all seen the offer. 'Take it or leave it'. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.

[bermudatriangle]

EYXW,has it occured to you that the cost of living in malaysia or thailand is a world apart from the southeast of England ??Comparing who is best at what and where from has many factors to consider.Service industries in asia generally offer exceptional standards,as they pride themselves on the service model.However,to then suggest that they perform their duties at a lower rate of pay than employees in the UK might require, has no bearing on the arguement.If employee costs were a top priority,no company would employ anyone in the UK,France,Germany,USA,Italy,Ireland,the list just goes on and on.The only employees would be from third world or developing countries,clearly ludicrous.We have to accept that living and working in the western, major economies is expensive,for both employees and employers.The system works so long as the cash circulates,be it at the top end of the market.Currently that cash flow is dwindling,with the serious effects we are all witnessing.That cash flow will eventually return and my hope is that BA employees have not been reduced to rates of pay that make living in the UK,virtually impossible.

[Tiger]

Crunchy.. your posting is spot on!

EYXW.. :hmm:

If that were what is happening I would say no - but it isn't and I think you know that really.

What isn`t happening then? Tell me what you think is happening then?
as for skytrax :bored:

[Twrecks]

where all our competitors are either cheaper or more productive and flexible.




Productivity and Crew efficiency, is based on many factors i.e. -trip planning, flight timings, scheduling and trip software used, and not forgetting the skill base used to produce the rosters.

CC should not be blamed for productivity, which is currently out of their control, and could vastly be improved by those in charge.

As for outdated contracts. There are many CC contracts within the BA folder. The longer you have been in service, the more restrictive and better paid the contract tends to be. These contracts will all disappear with time. Nevertheless CC recruited in the last 7 years do not enjoy such spoils, and these new contracts do allow for alot of flexiability to the employer. The basic is very low. CC are very dependent on allowances to support their income.

WW and Management, have not offered the CC Community a reasonable alternative payment system. Instead found ways to destroy the goodwill of the CC, and it is quite obvious, they are going to try change T&C's at any cost. SO... YES.. I DO SUPPORT BASSA :ok:, who else is going to look after us. Crunchy is right. I say NO to unreasonable offers.

Industrial Action may follow, but it is not the CC spoiling for a fight. Most CC do not wish any form of Industrial Action, but they do wish to be able to afford a roof over their head and food on the table, a wage above the breadline.


BEST CABIN STAFF RESULTS - BY WORLD REGIONS - Western Europe

1. British Airways - Skytrax 2009 :)

[Twrecks]

The primary constraint in cabin crew productivity on EF is their industrial agreement.


The current industrial agreement on EF, is not the ' big bug bear'. It is a set of mostly reasonable rules set to protect the CC from being over worked, to ensure the well being and safety of everyone onboard. Many trips which have one sector out and one back the following day, with no links, is not a result of the IA preventing the crew from being able to continue, but rather 'poor trip planning'. Yes, Carmen will roster you 900 hours, if that is the parameter , it will also roster 700 if programmed to do so. Hours are rostered according to work available and crew at hand. Industrial Agreement allows an individual crew to be rostered upto 60 hours in a week.. it is hardly restrictive.

and how long will BA have to wait for them all to retire?


That is in BA's hands, it could give them serverance, it managed to give
it's managers a golden handshake.

You have a wage well above the breadline now, you'll have a wage well above the breadline after any changes

That is where my friend you are sadly mistaken, and I need to take your blindfold off... Our salary is very much minimum wage.

As for meaningful change. Reducing crew heads, will not fix missing bags, solve open skies, or improve customer service. As long as the bean counters run the airlines, the customer will suffer. But enough said.
I am not in control, As you rightly said BASSA, will determine my future.

[overstress]

Industrial Agreement allows an individual crew to be rostered upto 60 hours in a week.. it is hardly restrictive.


Flying or duty hours?

[747-436]

As you rightly said BASSA, will determine my future.

From both sides of the table that is an interesting thought.....

[HZ123]

Here at Planet Cranebank I was told yesterday that indeed there are nearly 1000 suitable candidates in the hold pool should any unpleasant things come to pass. Additionally there were 10 extra SEP trainers taken on last September with presently little extra work to meet that requirement. Added to this as well it was discussed last year that CST training staff could take on large segments of the NECC classroom days. The senior management of CST have stated that there is a need for 12 more training staff with presently not enough work for the existing staff.

Threat it may be or merely a logistics exercise as so many times in the past plans have been put forward and come to nothing. Past experiences have seen many fall at the first hurdle and one only needs to think of the great day a year or so ago when WW hailed the dawn of a new day that went t--s up about an hour later.

[bunkrest]

£8.34 an hour isn't exactly a long term attractant to the best and the brightest though. Having had a quick look through a couple of recruitment sites night cleaners and data entry clerks fall in to this sort of salary bracket.

With some sadness I have recently hung up my wings - fed up with being treated as some sort of problematic, overpaid cog in the corporate machine. I was lucky enough (and I know just how lucky in the present climate ) to go back to working as a Director's PA in London. I work hard, make use of my degree and languages and am paid the going rate which is something just above £26,000 a year.

In simple terms once the economy stabilises crew like me will leave. If you have brains, and a decent CV why work your heart out for under £9.00 an hour? For the first time in years I actually feel valued and able to progress on my own merits. I will always miss flying, but the mis-management and constant chipping away of cc terms and conditions made this decision inevitable.

[Crunchy]

I don't know why anyone who doesn't work as BA crew have such a huge interest in seeing our 'lucrative contracts' slashed. I go back to my origianal question. How would you like it if it were your contract in question. Forget the 32 points. Its not about that. It's about New Fleet. Its exactly what they did at LGW. They basically want rid of us. Why shouldn't we fight tooth and nail for our jobs and accept the £6000 per year pay cut. And also, lets face it, it's almost just how QF did it as well. Does it come as a shock that we say no?

[Flap33]

In response to Crunchy, the Single Fleet at LGW wasn't exactly implemented overnight, ALL BA Crew knew it was happening but because it didn't affect the "Golden Runways" and you were unaffected it was allowed to happen. Another example of this has been the 11 month temp crew, again BASSA did little to allow this trojan horse onto the field.

I put it to all BA Crew, had BASSA gone to BA in the previous few years and negotiate a more sensible set of T&Cs then you may not now be left standing on top of a very big cliff.

In response to the "you can't take £500/month off me" posters, how about seeing it as having been paid that much over the odds (see CAA Crew Costs if you dn't believe me) for the past 25 years. I don't want to see anyone out of pocket, but I know so many crew that are intelligent, qualified people who must have known that this situation couldn't go on forever.

edited to correct my typos...F33

[Crunchy]

Flaps - Fair comment. We do share some opinions. I was at LGW when they shut it down and introduced the single fleet. I made my feelings quite clear then, that this 'not my aisle' attitude would bite us up the backside - not if, but when they tried it at LHR. I agree that BASSA should have done more then as well, but at the end of the day, when the deal was done, we had no choice. It was 'take lhr or leave it'. I personally went up there kicking and screaming. Now, it's happening again. Slowly but surely, the T&C's are eroding and we will not have it anymore. Enough is enough!! Yes, we're all standing on that edge of that cliff and it's not fun. I will support BASSA. I need to support BASSA. I don't want to go on the 'new fleet' thanks. :{

[Twrecks]

[quote][/Let us do some basic math on those figures 10,000/1200 = £8.34ph - now please remind us all of the minimum wage in the UK QUOTE]

We do live in a high cost living area. Our mortgage's is often out of kilter with our earnings. This is before ususal suspects such as water, electricity etc.. blah blah. The rest of our income is variable and is triggered by timmings, unfortunately not all crew enjoy 900 hours. My destinations are a lottery ticket, which come with different payment values. What may seem a busy time in the air may not have much value in the bank. I do enjoy my work, infact I do not see it as work. But I do need to feed and support my young family. So yes in my eyes this is minimum wage..

[Twrecks]

Hi Blue Riband

To be honest, if a reasonable hourly rate, with an increase to my current basic was offered. There is no reason why I or others would not explore this option.

Nevertheless, back to reality I am on a allowance based system with my Company looking to take away allowances trigger payments. I cannot afford this. My move is defenisve , but I am bringing the shutters down to protect my income.:hmm:

[GaryHumphreys]

No, not hearing anything except unfounded rumour and heresay. Time to look for another job methinks.

[coloncruiser]

I cant see us winning this one.

[GaryHumphreys]

Sadly I suspect your right.

[Artificial Horizon]

Sadly I feel that the company has the jump on BASSA on this one. If a strike ballot is called then the company can simply give 90 days notice to terminate all contracts. The new fleet can be up and running almost overnight with the option for any current crew to move over to the new fleet to 'secure' their jobs. Some will hold out and end up with no employment. Interestingly having spoken to numerous crew over the past couple of weeks a higher than expected number have expressed interest in the 'new' fleet especially if it allows greater control over lifestyle (bidding). During the 90 days most long haul departures will still operate with crew from Gatwick (were they are already mixed fleet), crew out of the hold pool and of course crew who have choosen to move to this fleet. Militant responses and strike ballots are just playing into company hands at this stage. Is this what I want to see happen... NO, I find most CC extremely professional and good at their jobs, and the biggest fear is of course where little Willie turns his attention next. BALPA has already been out played by Willie (open skies) and I suspect every move is planned.

[GaryHumphreys]

Interesting post AH. Reading this and the Virgin thread make worrying reading.

It looks to me that we have to make change or contracts could be terminated with 90 days notice.

You mention a strike ballot...........if they were to introduce a new fleet, as looks incredibly likely, what legal grounds would be there to call a strike over?

[imastweardsothere]

Hey Crunchy and Twrecks

What would your sollution to the current crisis be? Do you realistically think we can go for a strike and it will all blow over?

I think if we did that we would be served 90 days notice of termination of contracts, and the goose which is laying the golden eggs will be well and truly killed.

If the unions have been given access to the company books, surely we should be negotiating a solution which keeps everyone in a job. Virgin are already making 154 crew redundant. Do we want some of our colleagues to face the same fate, or do you think it doesnt matter because they are only junior people?

[GaryHumphreys]

I agree, we have to negotiate, and quickly.

The days of just saying NO and letting Juniors, or closing the Bangkok base is behind us surely?

[Crunchy]

You know what? I just don't know what the solution is. No I don't think for one minute that we'll strike and it'll all blow over. In previous years there has always been an answer but in my heart of hearts, I agree that we are on a very sticky wicket this time and its scares me. But if they are going to do us over, then it won't be without a battle. Not at LHR. There are too many crew that will reject this 'new fleet'. BASSA have admitted they cant stop it but I think BASSA will have to eventually do the best possible deal on the 'new fleet' because the deal they're offering on the table now is very bad. No-one can deny that. We should have stopped them from doing it to LGW but we didn't. We allowed it to happen. Partly ourselves to blame. Oh if only I had a pound for every time I said this would happen to crew back then. BA have a cunning plan. They've been planning this for years. They're ready. Crew in poole. Hundreds of temps that are current and waiting for full time contracts, full time trainers at Cranebank etc etc. I guess I just think, why go down without a fight!! Might seem a stupid attitude, but my job is worth fighting for. I love my job. The BA crew are brilliant - is it so wrong to feel that way?

[Travelling Public]

Crunchy,

You say;

"I guess I just think, why go down without a fight!! Might seem a stupid attitude, but my job is worth fighting for. I love my job. The BA crew are brilliant - is it so wrong to feel that way?"

Guess the thing is though that our actions will reflect on all of BA, not just CC. A fight out in public, reflected in the press, or worse still the threat of Industrial Action, will loose BA passengers they cannot afford to loose.

The jobs losses at Virgin, and the 3000 at Air France-KLM this week show very clearly the impact of the recession on all airlines.

Think BA employs around 40,000 people directly with 1000s more employed indirectly in allied services. Any action you take will have an effect on all those people as well.

Yes of course this thread is about CC Ts & Cs, and yes of course you want the best for you, but remember everyone else that could also be affected.

[Crunchy]

TP - Valid comments. I'm very proud (well was) to work for BA as are most of my colleagues. I haven't met a crew member yet that hasn't been willing to make sacrifices. If we're going to be put on new, permanent, contract with reduced T&C's which will result in a substantial pay cut forever, then so should the rest of the company employees (pro-rata). Everyone should be treated the same way. Isn't that fair? Why should one community foot the entire bill? I'll bet if they got another £350m fine they'd find the money. Oh yes - they'd get it off us!!

[GaryHumphreys]

Hey Crunchy

I didn't think anyone was going to be put onto a new contract unless they chose to go to the new fleet.

If you choose to stay on the fleet you are on, you are stuck with your current way of doing things.........on a route network that is very likely to rapidly become less well remunerated. For example, LH might perhaps lose SIN, HKG, BKK, LAX and SFO, and SH might perhaps miss out on a lucrative dinner payment in GVA, ZCH or OSL.

At least thats the way I understand it, but you have to read between the lines from each side at the moment.

We can't 'fight' for anything if there isn't anything that we can't legally strike over. They have already published the 32 point list of things that I think we really wish that the media didn't know about.

Gaz

[imastweardsothere]

Hmm Gaz

The media would have a field day with the "I'm only on minimum wage" line. Yes, if we are sick for a fair while, then our pay is low, but when the times are good, in my experience, they are very good!! If they weren't I bet we wouldn't bring back so may 'bargains' from Macy's, and Crate and Barrel etc.

The dumbest thing we have done recently was during the snow.......that was just too public an example of what our agreements required!!! IMHO

[Simeng]

Crunchy

If we're going to be put on new, permanent, contract with reduced T&C's which will result in a substantial pay cut forever, then so should the rest of the company employees (pro-rata).

This has been happening within the company for many years now. CC have been largely insulated from thanks to BASSA - unfortunately it's your time in the firing line.

I'm not saying it's right or fair but the rest of the company have been suffering for years - for example my old department had 40 engineers working rotating shift patterns 24hrs a day 365 days a year. They now have 25 engineers doing the same job that 40 guys did only five years ago.

Their contribution to the company's cost savings is 3 redundancies - they have NO union to protect them either reapply for your old job or leave are the only options available - this is fairly typical throughout the airline.

Everyone should be treated the same way. Isn't that fair?

Be careful what you wish for!

[HZ123]

Crunchy ; The ground staff are getting our backsides kicked and our T and C's have, are and will change. Like yourselves they are not to our advantage and in many cases will lead to pay cuts. The proposed ground staff contracts all feature difficult performance trargets which in many areas are extremely difficult to achieve. I wish us all well.

[Crunchy]

Yes and so do I. BASSA have fought our corner in many cases. I wish everyone in BA well. All I'm saying, is that as individuals in our own departments, its natural to defend your own position. I do think though, that this is one battle we will find very hard to win. :ugh:

[GaryHumphreys]

Hey Crunchy

I think now is the time to pressure the union to find out or to develop a strategy for change for the good of us all, not just those at the top.

Lets face it, could we easiy earn the same money outside BA? Hell no!! There are CAA figures I have seen that show us costing twice what it costs Virgin to employ its cabin crew. Its supposedly an average figure, but no wonder Willie is especially after us.

We need to negotiate our way out of this, or I fear it will be 90 days notice and new contracts for us all.

[imastweardsothere]

Simeng, that is terrible, i didnt realise we had been so protected these years!! And you guys must be so specialised and difficult to replace. I wonder what the legal minimum time to train one of us just to do doors, evacuations and PA's is? Any ideas anyone?

[bermudatriangle]

don't underestimate your value to the company.you do not just open doors and serve food and drinks.you take care of our customers for hours on end.

[imastweardsothere]

Yes, Bermudatriangle, but what you originally wrote, and what appears now is the same for cc anywhere.

We have been rewarded handsomely, but with the economy the way it is now, how can we expect to be paid the same?

If the revenue is not coming in like it used to, how can they continue to reward us like they used to?

[Crunchy]

The way I see it going - and this is not necessarily what I agree with or think is a great idea, but just what will happen, is that the majority of crew will vote to strike. I think we all know that dont we?

Nobody enjoys a strike. Its just an awful and nasty experience that usually leaves both sides licking their wounds. I fear, we are really going to be licking very big wounds this time as BA have us where they want us, but neither can they afford a strike. That type of action right now, is just not an option for them so they're not exactly in the best position in the current climate for a costly battle with crew.

It'll get called off at the 11th hour. The new fleet will go ahead (we know that's a forgone conclusion), and BASSA will have to negotiate for better t&c's. It's never going to be as good as the current contracts, but neither should it be as shocking as their proposal.

This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.

We all know every department in BA is being hit, but CC are being hit the hardest. We have a big union behind as. We are a very large community so we can be heard.

I have many friends in other departments within the airline, including ground staff - whom are treated abysmally, engineers, pilots and office staff - even CCM's!! I wish and hope your own unions can and will fight your corners too.

And, when I say these things like 'fight your corner' I don't mean to bring the airline down or anything stupid like that.

Do I want any of the above? No. Am I happy about it? No. Do the other 13000 odd crew at LHR? No. Would anyone like it no matter who they are or where they work? Of course not!! Are we going to fight tooth and nail - naturally! Will we win - probably not! Let just hope the outcome isn't too painful. :( It pains me to admit it, but, like others here who might share a similar opinion, that's what large companies do.

[Human Factor]

This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.

You're right. Legally they can't, however giving someone 90 days notice of termination of employment is different to giving someone 90 days notice of termination of contract (ie. forcing you onto the new fleet). Not sure you can strike for the former but you probably could for the latter.

Both are illegal (in the case of the former, assuming someone else is subsequently employed in the same role) but the maximum compensation claim for the former is significantly less than for the latter and it would take a lot of time through the courts for it to be sorted out (believe me, BA can drag their feet for years if they want to). Would BA gamble that not many people would have the time or money to fight in the courts?

Mods: Not trying to pick a fight but suggesting another potential outcome.

[Twrecks]

The Employment Relations Act 2004 introduces a new provision which changes the length and scope of the protected period for industrial action. For industrial action commencing on or after 6 April 2005, the length of “protected” industrial action is extended from eight to twelve weeks. Lock-out days, where an employer prevents striking employees from returning to work, are disregarded when determining this twelve week period. For example, where an employer locks out employees taking “protected” industrial action, for ten days, during the twelve week period, the twelve week period will be extended by ten days.
Employees who believe they have been unfairly dismissed in this way have the right to complain to an employment tribunal, regardless of their length of service or age.


Hi imastweardsothere

I hope we do not end in Industrial Action. As many crew prefer seeking answers across the table. As price of a strike is more than the saving's we have been asked to achieve.

I also do not believe, you would loose your job, should industrial action take place.

BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time. Any Industrial Action if sort, needs to be legally justified, and would be time limited. There is alot of scare mongering going on and around from all sides..

Bringing BA into the 21st Century ... is quite complex.

We have so many varying contracts that exist within CC community.. British Airways is also heavily Unionised. Unite and GMB and Bassa will most likely join forces in preventing British Airways from making a drastic cuts to staff incomes. British Airways does nevertheless need to cut it's costs. There are many ways a company can cut cost's and also many solutions. Nevertheless all areas of the business need to be proactive in this change. I do think our attitudes, do need to be more realistic with the current climate, as many people in and outside the UK are facing job cuts and redundancy, or looking for any type of work. This is a global recession.

I do think British Airways needs to improve its transparency and it's relationship with the staff who drive its business. The whole way Coloumbus came out, and the way Management handled the leaked information was poor and has caused so much mistrust and anger. No one has confidence in WW or the IFC Management Team. The truth always lies somewhere between BA Management and BASSA.


Those crew, who currently enjoy contracts prior to 1997, or have more than 25 years service. May be happy to seek alternative pastures if offered a reasonable incentive through serverance. I sure this would have savings for the company over a period of time. But I am not an accountant.

Yes, mixed flying is most likely a good way to increase crew productivity. Eurofleet would need to be part of this new structure for it to real make a difference. Thus, BA would be able to increase the flying hours of Short Haul Crews to 900 a year instead of current average of around 700. As with the demise of the 757, crews would be able to hold another license. This may also allow the company to reduce is crew heads, another form of cost savings. Mix flying could be good for crewlifestyles if promoted with an improved bidding system. Mix flying can also be brought in with out making huge changes to current terms and conditions. This is what is stopping most Eurofleet crew from entertaining the idea.


We must not forget we need to retain, good customer service and good crews, our premium passengers pay alot to travel with us, so we want to attract crews that are serious about onboard safety and the well being of our passengers. We also need to care about our crew. I know what I was like at 18, .... A more mature and experienced in-charge crew is better for both the Company and the passenger.

We also need to look at some areas where things have changed, and are prehaps outdated. For instance we do not need 4 crew on a 319 that only has 50 passengers onboard, we could do the service with 3.

Prehaps the CSD, needs to have more of defined role. i.e Working role in First on WW. A hourly paid job contract needs to be explored to see if crews would be still be able to attain a reasonable wage.

The current proposals are unreasonable, but there is always a middle path. The savings may come in from the administration of this new contract. As currently the administration of an allowance base system is expensive.

I do not want anyone to loose their jobs, and quite happy to endure a pay freeze or even reduce working days to allow, all crew to go home and place food on the table. If people need to go. I hope we seek to find these reductions from natural retirement and non replacement of those leaving or voluntary serverance.

Future crews should not come in on different contracts, they are not less worthy of a liveable wage than I am. I do know our Unions have given BA Millions in temporary saving's opportunities, to help BA during this current downturn. I think BA should accept this, with the proviso that Unions will seriously explore other ways of making cost savings for the future, this could be in exploring of the payments systems. The above is just my personal outlook. I too will relying on BASSA to look after my future.

[Crunchy]

twrecks that is absolutely spot on. Every word.

[imastweardsothere]

Twrecks and Crunchy

I think I can guess the era you are from.

Twecks says "BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time"...........how long can you afford to go on strike for? You expect it to be called off at the eleventh hour...........what if it isnt?

You suggest those employed prior to 97 or with 25 or more years service could be offered severance.....that would be age discriminatory, and hence it would have to be offered to all.

Have a look at the CAA's website, and you can see why we as a worforce are burdened with an unsustainable cost base. We have inflated our salaries, and particularly our allowances system to the point that we cost more than twice as much as cc at Virgin.

Sadly that is unsustainable. We must change.

[Crunchy]

I am not on the old contract.

[Tiger]

Nor me..

new contract here

[imastweardsothere]

So, you both will vote for a strike? What do you think you will gain? How long are you prepared to stay on strike for? Hoe much do you have budgeted for a strike?

[Crunchy]

Dear soimastewardsowhat, I think I've made my stance quite clear. I suggest you read twrecks post again. It is an excellent post and I agree with it entirely. In answer to your other questions pertaining to budgets etc, please go to the BASSA website.

[wobble2plank]

The difficulty faced by BASSA is that the company are after permanent cost savings not short term savings to avoid a bun fight and then have the same old story in a few years.

Just the threat of industrial action costs the whole company money. The rumblings through the press already will be having a negative effect on the forward bookings over the summer. Possibly offset by the worry of travelling with a smaller airline that might go bust.

I think WW has finally had enough and decided that now is the correct climate to solve this prickly issue once and for all. After all, this has been dragging on for quite some time now.

I think the plea to 'accept short term measures now' will fall on very deaf ears. Don't forget that the company has the right to withdraw your contract with 'adequate' (read 90 days) notice.

[Twrecks]

Hi imastweardsothere,

I and Crunchy and many of the CC who voice concern's on this forum or debate issues do so, because we enjoy our jobs, but we are not doormats...as BermudaTraingle said......

don't underestimate your value to the company.you do not just open doors and serve food and drinks.you take care the of our customers for hours on end.


In addition to this we...
Give up 365 days of the year, remain constanly on call via availables and 24 hour standby, have no guarantee of a christmas off, or leave in any summer period. Work in a pressurised cabin, at a voluntary cost to our long term health. Live out of a suitcase, spend our live's paying the odds for meals in different venues, spend nights alone in hotel rooms around the world. Having no or little control over our lifestyles. Work shifts , work through the night, fight off fatigue and jet lag. Be constantly on time, be flexiable, and not forgetting .. if we have an emergency, will save a load of people ahead of ourselves. :eek:

Yes, we do have a value, it's not just to feed the flight deck. ;)

Do not under estimate the Cabin Crew Community's worth. We are the face of British Airways, often the first contact a customer has with a real human being after his online check-in. WW and his Waterworld latte team, are playing a dangerous game at the expense of British Airways customers and shareholders. ( Me being one). It may be prudent that he start looking for his next post.

Do not assume Cabin Crew will strike, or are not open to negotiation through our Unions. Do not assume that I am on the old contract. However, be assured that CC Community will not sit by quietly, and let WW steamroll our T&C and industrial agreements, which have been introduced to protect the cabin crew from being over worked, in an enviroment where safetly should not be comprised.

Are you cabin crew or are you just fishing... ?

In answer to your last post. BA has in the past has given voluntary serverance to a defined group of people, either by date of joining, fleet, seniority or grade. It is not age discrimination, its an opportunity for those who qualify.

British Airways is a Premium airline offering an Upgraded experience...:).
I remain proud of my Airline, just not currently happy with the man at the top.

[marlowe]

Well if it comes to strike action can you make sure that the crews know what they are striking for ,and what striking means . In this day and age it is easy to say lets strike, but the majority of the crews probably dont realise what this entails being of an age group that dont remember the late 70s and 80s . I expect the thought of strike action sounds fun to them now, but when they have to man the braziers expect more crew phoning in sick than manning the barricades just like last time! I am not saying that you shouldnt fight for your T&Cs,but if BASSA go for strike action then they are going to have to make sure that the crews are fully behind the action, and not just ticking a box on a ballot paper because thats what is expected of them and understand what that tick means , if not then strike action will be a waste of time and Willie will have won .

[Crunchy]

I think the vast majority of BA crew have been through a number of strikes and know only too well what it involves. You are also right though, there is a generation of BA crew who do not realise what a strike is like and I agree that BASSA should have everyone fully informed.

[TopBunk]

I think the vast majority of BA crew have been through a number of strikes and know only too well what it involves

It seems as if the thread has been re-opened to non CC people:}

As I recall the last actual downing of tools was in 1997? for 3 days?

As such I think the 'vast' majority haven't a clue about what it involves. The vast majority think that a 'yes' vote means that they can throw a sickie and be immune. They should be under no illusion as to what it really means - the letters posted to home addresses detailing personal liabilities for company losses, the implications for (lack of) future employment; you name it. I suggest that my colleagues ask their union about these facts. Throwing a 'sickie' will not work this time, you need real representation, with proper negotiation from your 'elected' reps.

[imastweardsothere]

OK, lots here to read through, not skim through.

Yes I am cc, and no, not fishing.

I am afraid I dont trust 100% what BASSA, BA, or even the Government says. Call me a healthy sceptic, I am sure you have called me a few things already!!

I will have a slow read of todays posts, but it probably won't be until tomorrow, and it will probably not change my mind that striking over this issue will not provide us with a positive outcome, but will more likely to lead to dismissal.

SoThere

[imastweardsothere]

I knew I should have gone to bed.

Part of the fun of this job is having the time in Hotel rooms and at home to do Open University courses, and generally hunt around on the web, sometimes you uncover some interesting, and occasionally thought provoking stuff.

Such as........Twrecks says "As with the demise of the 757, crews would be able to hold another license."...........as you head toward the picket line, will you be able to hold up your 'licence' for all to see? No, I didnt think so, as we do not hold a licence on any aircraft. Not incendiary, or anti-anything, just a fact, that is never aired.

SoThere

[imastweardsothere]

I really need to go to bed now!

Crunchy said "We all know every department in BA is being hit, but CC are being hit the hardest".............um, I maybe wrong, but I think the staff in the Terminals are going to be reduced by around 25%, and that the Cargo people at LGW are already into the 90 day period leading up to termination of contracts.

We are not facing that sort of thing, yet.

[imastweardsothere]

You both disappoint me.

So, whats the problem? Is it so bad that i think for myself, do my own research, and do not implicitly trust everything that is said to me or that I read?

Or is it because I said that 'we are not licenced'? God boys and girls, its the truth! Its about time people started treating us as adults and told us truths, not just things we would like to hear.

I bet you had an open mind and a free will once!

[Twrecks]

Hi imastweardsothere

You can read this over your morning Tea.

Such as........Twrecks says "As with the demise of the 757, crews would be able to hold another license."...........as you head toward the picket line, will you be able to hold up your 'licence' for all to see? No, I didnt think so, as we do not hold a licence on any aircraft. Not incendiary, or anti-anything, just a fact, that is never aired.



It's seems you are keen for us to fight . Their is something odd about your threads my colleague, I can not put my finger on it. :suspect: So for the moment I will treat you as a curious guest. I would just like to reassure you that the majority of Cabin Crew do not want industrial action, and no industrial action is currently proposed.

Nevertheless, I would suggest you voice your concern's and opinion's on the subject of strikes :oh: to closed forums such as the BASSA website or Crewforum which are more suited.:)

[speedmarque]

Quoting "Imastweardsothere" just to do doors, evacuations and PA's is? Any ideas anyone?

Yes because thats all we do get trained for as crew. :} no firefighting no medical or CPR or defib or decompression or restraint, or dangerous goods or anything like that.

Someone forgetting exactly what they did on their "CABIN CREW" training??
:ok:

[imastweardsothere]

Its a shame you cant have an opinion on here that differs to the view of 'the mob'.

I do remember my basic training, and how proud, abd nervous i felt after it.

I just cant help feeling we are walking into a well planned trap.

We need to stop emotive posts about being on mimimum wage and the like, and fines that have happened in the past. We need to think about how and what we can change to stay in business and in a job.

[flapsforty]

2 quick requests if you please.

Instead of discussing each other, use the bandwith to discuss the issues at hand
Leave the moderating to the Mods


Thank you :)

[Balboy]

With BA currently in talks with unions about existing contract changes, the possible introduction of a new LHR fleet and a recruitment freeze across the airline, I wanted to ask how the operation is going now that BA has entered the summer season.

BA normally have new entrant courses running pretty much constantly throughout the year to cover natural wastage etc. but no such courses have run for some time. How is this possible?

Are existing crew working harder than normal and hitting high hours or are things 'ok'.

[HZ123]

Balboy; You are correct so far this year there has been 4 NECC courses with the latest 2 due to finish in the next couple of weeks. There is no news of any more at this time and many of the trainers are being encouraged to look to other courses they might deliver?