BA and Project Columbus III

[nuigini]

Nobody is forced onto the new contract but there will not be any further promotions to CSD and PSR posts on current contracts. Future crew will also be recruited onto the new contract and this is where future promotions will take place.

Also, if you want to transfer to another fleet you would have to accept the new contract.

[overstress]

Ta, that's what I thought.

Anyone care to speculate on the likely reaction?

[nuigini]

Either BA and UNITE will come to a mutual agreement or most crew will vote for a strike. Reactions on most crew forums are very strong and the message is crystal clear.

[PC767]

The reaction. It seems we are now picking up speed towards the ultimate sanction.

However the 30th isn't over yet.

The BA proposals deteriorated rather than compromised. I honestly feel that Walsh wants talks to fail, I'm increasingly concerned that Walsh would like BA to fail in its current entity. As has been noted elsewhere. No agreement and the entire house of cards falls.

[Classic]

This latest proposal suggests that BA didn't accept the 'elegant' solution of abolishing the telephone allowance and introducing the ME back to backs to save the required hundred mill or so.

How could they be so blind to such a 'clever' offer(as it was described to me by a bassa member yesterday?!)

[deeceethree]

How could they be so blind to such a 'clever' offer(as it was described to me by a bassa member yesterday?!) Let me guess ...... it wasn't 'clever'?

[PC767]

Neither was BA's latest counter proposal.

[overstress]

So BA values its crew at 'market rate + 10%'. Now we know what WW thinks. I reckon it was a bad idea to annoy him with full use of disruption agreement earlier this year. :uhoh:

[QRS]

nuigini,

As you seem to be informed how will the 'single on-board management grade' integrate with the proposed CSD/Purser figures bearing in mind Mixed Fleet is scrapped.

Also, you have posted BASSA's summary of the MOA.

How about this gem from the MOA albeit hyperlinked from the BASSA website.

'The next pay review will be in February 2011 when BA will review basic pay, variable pay, and incremental pay increases, taking into account all relevant circumstances, including but not limited to, company performance and employee productivity.'

Oh dear! Make a note in your diaries!

[sunnysmith]

Tofster,


PS I am not making 30K a year as full time crew as reported in the press. My P60 states 18k!

my 2ps worth: strange how my wife's P60 (new contract purser) is closer to 28K

S S

[Matt101]

Hmmm whilst I think BASSA's counterproposal was not "going to happen" I can't help that feel some aspects of the BA proposal are a little harsh.

It certainly isn't a set of proposals that BA could possibly hope to expect crew to swallow without a fight. Certainly the cessation of promotion opportunity without effectively taking a pay cut is rather a dampener on people's career prospects.

Whilst I know crew elsewhere are far worse off I still think there could have been a greater degree of tact within what BA have tabled and maybe a carrot to go with the stick.

Not all of it is totally unacceptable though and I think that at least the danger of "old fleets" being starved of work is gone (in fact it seems you will have plenty of work to do with the lack of downroute time!)

Whilst I'd agree change was needed I think it would be unfair of any of us to expect that this will not be deeply upsetting for a generally excellent bunch of Crew - many of whom have given many years loyalty to BA.

Whilst I hope my sympathy for the crew here is clear I have to say that if BASSA are such excellent negotiators how have they allowed BA's proposals to generally deteriorate as opposed to improving!?

[Matt101]

PS I am not making 30K a year as full time crew as reported in the press. My P60 states 18k!

That is because your P60 shows taxable pay - not all of yours is taxable. Have a look at your Mortgage letter under epay - add the various figures and you will get a more accurate idea of your top line - unless you are part time/on a bad set of trips at LGW in which case.....

[Human Factor]

... and maybe a carrot to go with the stick.

The carrot was an invitation to spend the past few months negotiating a sensible conclusion. Unfortunately, the carrot was ignored. Hence the stick.

[Classic]

Bassa should be ashamed of their actions. They responded to BA's admittedly ambitious proposals, not by using them a starting point together with their own (sensible) suggestions, but by wasting everyone's time on a bunch of off the wall proposals that were never going to be worth 5 minutes serious consideration.

If they were my reps I'd be on the phone asking what they were playing at - this is serious stuff and Bassa's sense of self importance is no longer relevant. The terms and conditions of its members are more important than Bassa's ability to dictate how IFS is run on a day to day basis, since WW has made it plain that the union's days of unrestricted power over IFS managers are over. Bassa should realise that and concentrate on its immediate priority - extracting some sort of reasonable working contract for its members.

[Joetom]

My P60 states ?K, that is another big problem for the CC, having a low P60 has advantages, for example children to uni, it can be a great help, and various other means tested items.

About if CC change fleet, they accept new deal and no increments, do they also slip on to the latest pension deal, ie more staff on the MPS and less on the APS/NAPS ?

Stand back, take your own pick up on cash flows/yield/prem cabin/econ cabin/fuel price/pen costs/green taxes etc etc etc, you name it ???

The company has a set of figures in its head, these will be on the slide as time goes by(downward) CC unions have their duty to the CC, can still only guess, these numbers are too different to be fixed over the table.

The above is because unions and company have failed to make progress over many many years, now the company and staff will watch an unhappy show in Jul/Aug.

My thoughts are with all the CC in the coming months........

[PC767]

There is silence, nothing.

The only news is coming from Sky News who are reporting that there will be talks on Wednesday but that BA now want 5000 job cuts from cabin/ground/baggage handlers.

To add, on the BA ESS forum, it is being quoted that the saving from IfCE, which was £82million, has been increased. Unite offered an alledged £173million of savings but BA now want, an unsubstansiated, £210million.

There is no hope whilst posts are moving.

[ScootCargoOps]

Just saw that! Sign of things to come.... Sky News Story.

Fact is, you continue to fight for your jobs and the airline continues to loose money. Goal posts will change until things change.

[Carnage Matey!]

BASSA have really stuffed this one up. Instead of spending the last 6 months studying, researching, analysing, preparing and negotiating, it appears they've done nothing but turn up the rhetoric. Had they taken the time to study the cost of every aspect of every crew members agreement they'd have seen exactly what BAs proposals were worth, and fought them on a reasonable basis. Instead, nobody ever saw what BAs proposals were actually worth, BASSA just submitted a counter proposal that clearly wasn't costed and manifestly wouldn't produce the savings required. Their procrastination and prevarication have allowed the deadline to pass, and now the deal is off the table and BA are back seeking punitive savings.

Will BAs new proposal save £210M? Undoubtedly, and a whole lot more to boot. How much more? Only BA know, as it's pretty clear BASSA haven't done the research required to put an accurate cost on the proposal. And now time is of the essence. The train is leaving the station, with the other unions either on board or running along the platform to jump on the last coach. Meanwhile BASSA is dawdling in the ticket hall, hoping to jump the barrier when nobody's looking and ride the train for free.

BASSAs latest news bulletin asks "Fair, Open, Equal, Honest?". Nobody ever said it was going to be equal. Perhaps if they'd spent more time getting their own house in order instead of jealously eyeing other departments they wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.

[nuigini]

I can't comment on how the new contracts and SCCM levels will integrate on the current fleets because I don't know the details.

BASSA suggests 767 fleet to be transferred to EF. Have they thought of the current situation with less bookings and that BA actually has to fill the seats to make it profitable to use a wide-body aircraft on EF routes? The 767 still requires minimum crew of 8 which would be costly if BA wouldn't be able to fill the seats. Having read their proposal over and over I still can't honestly see how it would save BA £173 million. I honestly can't and their suggestion for additional B2B, when the company is actually rostering fewer of them, is outrageous. I won't mention about the crew change on the 757 as it has already been covered.

BASSA also suggests in their proposal a new contract instead of introduction of a new fleet at LHR. BA has abolished the new fleet and now suggests a new contract but BASSA is even more upset than before over their suggestion. You can't have your cake and eat it!

[pinkaroo]

Cm, I doubt even you believe that this whole event has been anything other than a precursor to Operation Slash and Burn. With financial uncertainty comes opportunity. Willie must have checked the boardroom wall for paintings by now. The plan was always to offload those expensive pensioners, cut those T & C's, get that share price up, exercise options, encash and run!

[Carnage Matey!]

Personalising the debate won't change things. Any other CEO would be doing what Willie is now. It's not all about his personal enrichment.

[Joetom]

Market rate diff of about £20k per CC and the company has 15K of CC in a stafff of about 40K, means the CC will be taking a big hit this time around, shame the CC unions did'nt follow BALPA lead as they did when the pensions were watered down in 2007.
.
I guess when all these money savings are in place, the old pensions(aps/naps) will be shut and all staff will be in the super(mps), I wonder if the the flying staff will still keep the advantage of an inflated pen pay figure, ie 17.5/19.0% more than ground staff, may be that's fair ???

Anyways, my thoughts with the CC, it's not their fault they in this position, however the oldies have enjoyed the cream, the newbees will pay the price!!!

[Carnage Matey!]

I wonder if the the flying staff will still keep the advantage of an inflated pen pay figure, ie 17.5/19.0% more than ground staff, may be that's fair ???

They'll keep this 'advantage' for as long as ground staff have the 'advantage' of a 5 year increase to their NRA rather than the 10 year one for flying staff.

[TightSlot]

Folks

This thread has become very large and cumbersome. We seem to have reached a point in these proceedings where decisions are being taken, so it is time to start a new thread. Please continue this topic at...

British Airways - Industrial Relations & Negotiations (http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/379770-british-airways-industrial-relations-negotiations.html)