"Wait In Lounge" vs. "Go To Gate" At Stansted

[Seat62K]

A question for anyone in the know.

On recent trips out of Stansted I've felt that passengers have been kept un-necessarily long in the "shopping mall": i.e., that even though the gate numbers for flights have been displayed, we've been instructed to wait in the lounge and not go to the gate.

Now, for most of my Ryanair flights I've ignored this instruction and walked to the "Ryanair pier" knowing that if I've made a mistake I can simply walk back again.

I had thought that keeping passengers in the main departure lounge is due to the possibility of last minute gate changes and recognise that if being at the wrong gate necessitates use of the transit, this could pose a problem.

I had also thought that, possibly, we were held in the main departure lounge to ease congestion, but the gate areas often seem less crowded than the main departure lounge so this would seem less likely to be the case.

However, I do wonder whether the real motive might be to ensure that we spend as much as possible in the shops.

Any comments? Thanks.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Now, for most of my Ryanair flights I've ignored this instruction and walked to the "Ryanair pier" knowing that if I've made a mistake I can simply walk back again.>

So, you ignore instructions, eh? May I ask why? When I fly I obey instructions. If everybody had the attitude that they knew best and ignored instructions the situation would be chaotic. There could be a dozen reasons why you are kept in the lounge so why not accept that?

Just because there are shops, you don't have to patronise them. As a passenger I've never spent a penny in an airport shop although I appreciate that some may not be able to restrain themselves!

[Dropline]

It's the handling agents that call flights to the gates for boarding not the BAA...Can't speak for Stansted, but at Gatwick we don't call pax to the gate unless 1) the planned gate and stand are clear (ie not being used for another flight) and 2) the aircraft is here or at least on final approach (in case of late stand change by the BAA) Given Ryanair operate 25 minute turnarounds, pax are generally called to the gate between 30 and 45 minutes prior to departure. If we call pax down to the gate any earlier they moan and want to know why they were called to the gate when the aircraft is not actually boarding... call them any later and they moan they have had to rush from the departure lounge...either way we can't win!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

I do exactly the same mate. It makes sense and I hate that bloody shopping mall. There's *no* harm in doing this Heathrow Director I gotta say I bet you don't fly a Hell of a lot these days because if you did you'd know that there is an insanity and paranoi behind a lot of these "instructions". More relevant, the "Wait In Lounge" is pretty geared to getting Joe Public to part with the cash in the shops.
You are free to return from Pier 3 without breaking the rules. If someone knows why you can't do the same at Glasgow I'd love to know why? Arriving and departing passengers are seperated at both.

[Beer_n_Tabs]

Maybe it doesn't happen in STN, but in at least one of the UK airports I frequent the screen had the phrase 'Relax and Shop'.

I must be getting grumpy in my old age, that really annoys me for some reason.

:ok:

[deltayankee]

They do the same "wait in lounge" at LHR/EGLL T3, but with the added twist that at the last minute it suddenly goes from "wait in lounge" to "boarding" to "last call" in the time it takes you to get across the lounge. Another reason why I never use LHR unless there is no alternative.

Last minute gate changes are no excuse. At AMS/EHAM to name just one you can wait where you want and gate changes are never a problem.

[big.al]

I can see both sides of the coin as far as Stansted is concerned.

On the one hand, going to the gate before being called to do so could cause delays and/or pax offloading in the event of a late gate change. So many of the gates are a good few minutes on the underground rail system (which loops, if I remember correctly) and to get back to where you started could take some time if ones goes to the gate prematurely and then the gate is altered.

On the other, I have known 'Go to gate' and 'final call' be shown within two minutes of each other, especially with tight turnaround times such as FR operate. This can cause a last minute panic and rush, especially for those queueing in the shops to pay before getting on the undergound rail to the gate. I have even seen/heard 'final call' annoucements made before the first pax. actually pass through to board which makes a mockery of the 'final' announcement and leads to pax. becoming more blase about real urgency (sorry, don't know how to put the accent on 'blase' but you'll know what I mean!).

As for 'Relax and Shop' all too often it is taken as 'drink and get merry'....!

[Dropline]

AMS is not run by the BAA....

In Gatwick South there are only 8 gates that can be used for UK domestic (eg GLA EDI BFS BHD MAN IOM etc) and CTA flights (SNN DUB ORK GCI JER). The stands and gates are allocated to flights by the BAA, and are used by Flybe, Aurigny, Aer Lingus, Easyjet and Ryanair, all working to 30 minute turnarounds or less! This means at peak times these gates are in constant use, so one flight cannot be called to a gate until the previous flight has fully boarded. It only takes one flight to run late and the whole stand plan has to be rejigged, whilst taking into account the fact that not all stands can take all aircraft types, and not all gates can be used for CTA flights! This means last minute gate and stand changes happen on a daily basis. Calling passengers to the wrong gate is far more of a hassle for all concerned than leaving them in the Departure Lounge until the gate is confirmed, particularly when 6 of these gates are on one pier and 2 on another. Then add in the fact that most of these gates only comfortably seat between 50-100 pax, and you see what we're up against... no point calling 189 Ryanair pax down an hour before departure to a gate that only holds 50 people...

Until the BAA provides proper gate lounge facilities at Gatwick, particularly for domestic flights, handling agents have no choice but to leave passengers in the departure lounge until they have somewhere to put them!

I've offloaded plenty of passengers who thought they knew better and came down the wrong pier ahead of time, only to find their flight departed from the other pier without them!

There are plenty of seating areas in the departure lounge... no-one is forcing you to go shopping!

[Seat62K]

Plenty of seating in the departure lounge at LGW South? You must be kidding!

For some easyJet passengers, another problem with delaying "Go To Gate" is that "Speedy Boarding", "SA" and group A have all sometimes been called before many passengers have reached the gate.

To return to Stansted, why display the gate number beside "Wait in Lounge"? It's an invitation to some pax!

On one occasion, we were at around ETD -40 minutes and it was still displaying "Wait in Lounge". Knowing that it can take some time to get to the gate using the transit (and remembering that on one occasion it broke down!) I decided to make my way to the gate. The flight was late but there was no indication of that in the shopping mall so I didn't know this. Furthermore, being web check in - and therefore having no hold luggage - you can imagine that I did not want to be seen as a "no show" simply because I'd waited in the lounge too long.

[Capt Wannabe]

Dropline: At STN the calling of flights to the Gate, ie the messages that display on the FIDS is based on an automatic timing system which is configured within the Airport Operational System. This is configurable for different timings depending on factors such as whether the flight is International or Domestic. I can't remember the timings or all the options, but it is all set by BAA.

However, this process can be - and often is - interrupted by the Handling Agent. Particularly in a delay situation or if there is a particular reason to get the pax to the gate early. The problem here though is that once the automatic process is interrupted it remains manual so the agent must remember to manually update the status.

[WHBM]

So, you ignore instructions, eh? May I ask why? When I fly I obey instructions. If everybody had the attitude that they knew best and ignored instructions the situation would be chaotic.HD, I suspect you have this approach because you feel that the information screens are operated accurately by sensible people, as at many airports. Stansted is an exception. They are operated by buffoons.

I got to the bottom of this at Stansted some time ago and found that handling agent staff, for their own convenience, will set the sequence of events to run automatically without any reference to reality. This makes life more simplistic for them. So you can find the displays sequence through Wait, Go To Gate, Boarding, and Final Call, when the inbound aircraft has not even arrived on stand. This is on both the advance FIDS displays and the individual gate monitors. You can see there any day Final Call in front of a gate full of passengers where the handling staff have not even turned up yet.

It's no wonder it is regularly mentioned on here that carriers are retendering for handling at Stansted. Nor do BAA escape criticism. It's their airport and if agent staff use the facilities provided incorrectly they should be checked straight away. But as this has gone on there for years I can only conclude that BAA management just sit back in their offices, laugh at the bewildered passengers, and count the daily revenue.

There are plenty of seating areas in the departure loungeThese will be the seats provided for passengers to wait in until their flight is shown as Go To Gate, situated out of sight of any of the FIDS screens, yes ? Further comment superfluous.

[LateFinals]

While we are on the subject of irritations, there is a growing trend for "Final Boarding" to be put up on the screens at Luton, Stansted departure lounges (and heaven knows where else) . You rush to the gate and find that boarding hasn't even started yet !

This idiotic patronising gesture treats passengers as ignorant cattle and increasingly will encourage passengers not to rush from departure lounges to the gates with resulting delays. What ever is wrong with giving passengers accurant information on the monitors ? Boarding in 10 mins, Boarding commenced, final boarding etc ? Anyone know who came up with this ridiculous policy of lying to passengers ?

LF

[Capt Wannabe]

Whilst not defending the actions of operators who show incorrect information on the FIDS / Gate screens, I wonder how many of the posters in this thread have acted as a boarding gate agent or dispatcher - or even been delayed because other passengers on their flight think 'Final Call' means there's time for just a 'quick-one' in the bar :ugh:

WHBM - Just to clarify my earlier post - the default at STN is for the FIDS baording sequence to be automatic. If a Handling Agent intervenes at all with the process then it goes fully manual, ie the boarding status must be manually updated. There is no facility within the system for anyone to put it back to automatic once interrupted.

[WHBM]

WHBM - Just to clarify my earlier post - the default at STN is for the FIDS baording sequence to be automatic. If a Handling Agent intervenes at all with the process then it goes fully manual.Quite so. And when inbounds are late, they don't intervene, despite procedures in their manuals to do so. Agent management don't care. BAA, owner of the FIDS system, don't care. Presumably the BAA Procurement team bought the cheapest, least featured version of the software they could, and now won't budget to have it improved. And so nonsense continues to be shown.

[OpsSix]

I've worked in passenger handling at STN and am currently a Dispatcher at LCY. At STN I used to set the screens to display Final Call at -40 and I encourage the departure lounge at LCY to get my flights set to Final Call asap during the 30min turnaround.
The amount of passengers that think that we will not leave without them (esp at LCY) never ceases to amaze me.
Whether there is endless shopping to be done or a pint to be had at the bar, I want you at the gate ready to go. If displaying final call is going to get you to the gate ready and waiting to be 'processed' then that is what I will do. Should you be one of the many who fails to make it then I'll do my best to offload you in a flash.

[Final 3 Greens]

If displaying final call is going to get you to the gate ready and waiting to be 'processed' then that is what I will do. Should you be one of the many who fails to make it then I'll do my best to offload you in a flash.

What a hostile attitude to the customers.

[deltayankee]

If displaying final call is going to get you to the gate ready and waiting to be 'processed' then that is what I will do. Should you be one of the many who fails to make it then I'll do my best to offload you in a flash.

The problem of displaying incorrect information to make people move faster is that people soon learn that the calls are meaningless and ignore them. Better to tell the truth and saying "boarding in N minutes" but be honest. People will learn to trust the displays.

But I think that the real problem is not the fault of the operations staff but simply that these airports are badly designed and/or incompatible with a lean, fast turnround model.

[OpsSix]

Nothing hostile about it. I have a job to do and only have 30 mins to do it in. When all bar one passenger is sitting on the aircraft and I can't offload the remaining one until -10, to then see them stroll in fully loaded with bags from the tax free shop, it's quite frustrating.

As for boarding in 10 mins, our system at LCY certainly doesn't allow for that. The passengers at LCY only spend a max of 15 mins in the gate before boarding does commence anyway.

You have to remember that we are on this very forum because we have an interest in aviation or work in aviation. Most passengers leave their common sense outside as soon as the enter the terminal.

With regards to late inbound flights, we always get it put straight onto final call as the turnaround time is limited to 20 mins. Quite a few of us have achieved turnarounds in under 10 mins thanks to the passengers all getting to the gate when requested.

[WHBM]

Most passengers leave their common sense outside as soon as the enter the terminal.....With regards to late inbound flights, we always get it put straight onto final call as the turnaround time is limited to 20 mins.
Ops

As you know I'm one of your regulars, but I'm disappointed with this approach, because my experience at LCY is that the majority of pax through there do not in fact leave their brains at home, but follow the procedures very nicely, as you actually describe yourself at the end. In fact, compared to life at Stansted, I would have thought you would find your customers a world different. In my experience, as soon as the gate goes up, most people are there within a couple of minutes.

If you call the pax early at LCY, on a full 146 they will be standing, queueing, on those narrow dark stairs down to each gate. One day there will be a serious accident here (if there hasn't already been one) with numbers of passengers falling down the steps. Any sensible Health & Safety assessment, instead of concerning itself with trivia as normal, would have picked this up as a real concern about LCY. Something that calling pax to the gate before things are ready can only increase.

Very few pax seem to make use of the shops at LCY in fact I wonder how they can stay in business, so the bag-laden traveller is not common. Maybe you are thinking back to Stansted again. No wonder the LCY car park charges have skyrocketed there in recent years, to get something out of the users.

Being the DS is not the only frustrating job around. In fact I am quite likely having to make my trip to deal with some business frustration that has arisen in our own organisation. Probably true about others as well. It's a significant part of aviation's revenue. And if you dispatch me on the first flight out in the morning, I'm suspect you will be home long before I am back on the last flight in.

[wings folded]

There is another factor.

At STN it is a very long way from the main lounge to the pier mostly used by Ryanair.

Even if all the escalators, lifts and rolling pavements are working, which is not always the case, there is still a major trek on foot to accomplish especially if your gate is the one at the end of the pier.

Those of us with a disability have learned that the "Time to get to gate" signs in the lounge, and the "summons to the gate" screens appear to be based upon sound bodied, not to say incredibly fit, individuals.

I know that I need longer than they give me to make it on time, and not be offloaded, so I set off before I should.

Yes I ignore an instruction.

Otherwise our cheerful OpsSix or somebody of like mind will "offload me in a flash"

[angels]

Ops - Interesting isn't it. You have confirmed that I'm right in what I do.

I knew crap information was put on the screens and this thread, along with your comments has proved it.

Afraid I'm one of those that has learnt to ignore what the damn screens say. They're wrong most of the time -- not all of the time but most of the time.

I've never delayed a flight yet by being last to the gate but I've wandered up many a time well after the 'final boarding' has appeared to find people who have been there for 30 or 40 minutes because they believed what the screens said.

[davidjohnson6]

It's fairly obvious at the departure loung in STN when all the FR flights show either 'Wait' or 'Final Call' with nothing in between that the information is not correct.

I am rather surprised that BAA don't want to do anything about this - particularly as it encourages people to spend less time shopping and much more time waiting by gates where there are very few shops

While 5 years ago, the average FR passenger might have arrived at STN an hour or more in advance to allow for checkin, the fact that so many now checkin online means less need to arrive so long in advance. If having cleared security 35 mins before a flight one sees 'Final Call' on a screen (but 10 mins before the aircraft gets to the gate !) - where's the time to spend cash in the shops ?

I believe BAA take a cut of the *turnover* of shops, not just a simple rental, thus they are incentivised to increase sales at stores. Seems that BAA are missing a revenue opportunity here by not cracking down on dispatchers.

[OpsSix]

Yep, you're correct in saying that the information is crap, because at STN for instance they are calling for the pax to be at the gate before the aircraft has even touched down. They just want you there on time that's all, and if displaying final call ensures that you get to the gate on time then that is what they will do. Whilst 99 out of 100 pax may get to the gate when requested, it's always that last one that will have to be offloaded, and of course they're bound to have bags which need to be found before the aircraft can depart. This all takes time which we simply don't have.

At LCY, it's rare that the flight is called before the aircraft is on stand as the stands are only allocated when the aircraft is on finals or once it has landed.

You'd be surprised at the amount of people that do ignore the requests whether it be getting to the gate on time, sitting where they are asked to sit onboard or turning a mobile phone off. Only last night I asked a passenger travelling to LUX to switch his phone off as he waited on the ramp. His response was "no, I'm going to continue my conversation"
Another example from a week or two ago were 2 pax that arrived at the gate after I had offloaded them. When I asked where they had been the answer was simple.... "sitting down".

I agree with you about the size of the gates.... totally useless for the purpose. If I'm dispatching an RJ, I don't even go back into the gate until we're boarded, it's too much of a battle to get to the desk!!
We don't call the flights early at LCY though. Boarding commences at -15 and the flight is called at -30. We need those 15 mins to get all the pax in, boarding cards scanned etc and then at -10, anyone who has yet to show is offloaded.

Re the shops at LCY, well there are 4 to choose from airside, one of which sells watches for up to £18.5k.... what more could you want ;)

WHBM, you'll have to introduce yourself one day dear chap, I'm the one with no hair :ok:
I may well see you on your outbound and inbound flights if I'm working a double shift as many of us do.

[Final 3 Greens]

Nothing hostile about it. I have a job to do and only have 30 mins to do it in. When all bar one passenger is sitting on the aircraft and I can't offload the remaining one until -10, to then see them stroll in fully loaded with bags from the tax free shop, it's quite frustrating.

You are paid to deal with the frustration, get over it, you are in a customer service business and some customers are irritating.

[OpsSix]

I am over it, I don't get stressed, I enjoy my job. If anyone is stressed, it seems you are. I'm just saying about what goes on and the reason why the screens display such info.

You have my permission to climb back into your pram.

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm not stressed, sitting here in the southern med, 17 degrees and glorious sunshine, just about to finish my working day in my home office and go for a glass of wine on the sun terrace. How is it at your end?

If you don't like receiving direct feedback, I'd suggest dropping the macho comments like "Most passengers leave their common sense outside as soon as the enter the terminal."

[urdy gurdy]

back to the original point of the thread, the airport i work at doesn't allow us to have gate numbers on the boarding cards or call flights to the gate until -45 std for charter flights and -30 std for schedule flights. This keeps the passengers spending money in the "shopping mall" for as long as possible. The airport has targets as to how much money, on average, per head that people must spend. That is the bottom line, Money.
We can only call them early with the permission of the terminal duty manager in exceptional circumstances.

[Dropline]

F3G

Unfortunately the reality today is that an increasing number of passengers appear to have forgotten (or have never been taught) how to behave in public, and are seemingly unable to follow simple instructions such as "Board Gate 15" or "Wait in Lounge". Then when things go wrong, they blame everyone but themselves! While I have no doubt that you are most certainly NOT one of these people, more and more airport staff are being subjected to abusive behaviour while at work. Yes it is a customer service environment, but how would you react if one of your clients openly urinated during one of your seminars, like a Ryanair passenger did on the apron recently? (presumably he thought he might have to pay if he waited until he got on board!) How would you like to be screamed at and called a f**king c**t because you followed Ryanair procedures and offloaded a passenger who failed to show at the gate in time? All this while trying to turn a 737-800 safely in 25 minutes!!! Please don't blame us if we occasionally get frustrated at the way some people behave!

Enjoy your wine and sunshine! I don't blame you for leaving these shores!

[Final 3 Greens]

Dropline

I can empathise with your situation, the behaviours you mention are unacceptable and since I work with managers or execs, normally they don't do these things, although they do have equally obnoxious and different behaviours. try dealing with a Saudi prince, if you don't believe me ;)

Let me just post a quote from someone outside the UK on another thread....

I am trying to say, that the loud people seem to get ahead in Brittain as opposed to the inteligent once. But that could be the trend elsewhere. I am also trying to say, that english airports became very unpleasant to go through. Where are all the english gentleman gone? If I can avoid London airports to go anywhere, I will do it. Amsterdam seem to be a good example, that rules can be applied tastefully, without annoying passengers.

Ops6, unfortunately, comes across as a 'loud person', whereas you do not.

[OpsSix]

Well my apologies for coming across as a loud person but I'm sure I am much the same as Dropline. It wasn't a macho comment either as most of the 86 people I worked with on the passenger team at STN shared the same view.
As for today, pleasent sunshine and a pint of the black stuff down the pub went down a treat thanks.
Enjoy your day.....

[wings folded]

I think that I can see what the problem is.

OpsSix and 86 like minded people at STN who share his views (according to him) could achieve superb efficiency in turning around aircraft, were it not for those wretched, pesky passengers who upset the smooth running of the whole affair because they have paid to travel, and therefore want to.

Do away with them and you will have a pleasant life.

Of course, whoever employs you will sooner or later spot a slight drop in revenue and decide that they perhaps no longer need you.

You perhaps did not read my earlier post regarding disabled PAX or you perhaps ignored it, but there are many reasons why PAX turn up late at the gate, and imposing un-achievable time scales for less than fully fit people to get from lounge to gate can be, and is, one of the reasons.

[OpsSix]

Re disabled pax, we are usually made aware that they are travelling and they are bought to the gate by the assistance staff and pre boarded.
I'm afraid I don't set the time scales, I just work to them and by sticking to the rules we are given, we do achieve the required efficiency.

[WHBM]

Re disabled pax, we are usually made aware that they are travelling and they are bought to the gate by the assistance staff and pre boarded.
I think the discussion was just about people who take longer than the standard allowance to make the long trek down to the gate at places like Stansted (not applicable at LCY apart from Gate 9).

So there we go, if you can't make the brisk pace allowed for in our wonderful glorious automated FIDS then we'll treat you as an invalid and stuff you in a wheelchair, make you report an extra hour earlier, and be then left for 55 minutes in the chair in a drafty corridor wondering if the chair pusher is going to come back or not before you are offloaded by the DS at the gate. That will teach anyone elderly not to upset the turnaround.

[Dropline]

If a flight departs late, the dispatcher has to account for every minute of the delay. In the case of Ryanair, there are often penalty clauses in their contracts with the handling agents that can mean if the handling agent is deemed responsible for the delay, Ryanair will not pay their handling fees for that turnaround. Waiting for late passengers is not considered an acceptable reason to delay a flight - as far as Ryanair are concerned, official policy is to close the gate at -10 to departure and any passengers arriving after this are to be denied travel.

If we call passengers to the gate when the aircraft is on finals (which is generally when the airport allocate the gate), say at -35, that still only gives us a 25 minute window to get up to 189 passengers down from the departure lounge, check their ID and boarding cards, and get them on board before we have to close the gate.

Offical Ryanair policy is to close the aircraft door at -5, which means we actually have 20 minutes ground time in which to disembark the inbound passengers and board the outbound! I appreciate it must be annoying for passengers when the screens go from Wait in Lounge to Gate Closing very quickly, but the screens change automatically and that process cannot be controlled from the gate. With such a short turnaround time, boarding has to be completed as quickly as possible or we risk giving Ryanair a free turnaround! If Gate Closing isn't shown early, particularly if the gate is a long walk, we end up having to leave passengers behind. Ryanair don't care if you miss your flight - they then get to charge you for another ticket!

We don't impose the timescales, Ryanair do. We are just put under immense pressure to achieve them. If I give them a free turnaround by not achieving the 25 minutes, then my employer wants to know why!

It really is fairly simple - if you want a calm, ordered, relaxed boarding process, don't fly with Ryanair!

[Skipness One Echo]

Only last night I asked a passenger travelling to LUX to switch his phone off as he waited on the ramp. His response was "no, I'm going to continue my conversation"

Er...why? Do taxi-ing aircraft career out of control becasue of a Nokia nearby? In the history of the world? Ever?

[raffele]

Er...why? Do taxi-ing aircraft career out of control becasue of a Nokia nearby? In the history of the world? Ever?

Probably not, but many airlines have a policy of mobile devices must be switched off whenever the engines are running on the ground

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