RNZAF Pilots to Fly Air NZ Maybe

[komac2]

Military Moves to cope with recession
Dom Post 14/03/2009

Air Force pilots are being seconded to Air New Zealand and the army is looking at using the nine-day fortnight to boost territorial numbers.
The initiatives come as the military looks at how it can maintain its reservist numbers and deal with the effects of the recession.
Twenty-seven of the 44 Defence Force personnel in the Solomon Islands are reservists, a 30-strong platoon of reserves serves in East Timor, five are in Sinai, two in Korea and three in Afghanistan.
"The territorials are fundamental to the organisational health of the army," Brigadier Dave Gawn said yesterday, on the eve of operation Boss Lift, which will see 11 civilian employers taken to the Solomon Islands to see what their staff do in the army.
The Defence Force and police are part of an Australasian operation to help restore governance and law and order to the Solomon Islands.
Brigadier Gawn conceded such an operation would be close to impossible without the territorials and more were needed, especially as it was not known what impact the recession would have. It could go either way, Brigadier Gawn said, suggesting that some employers would be reluctant, during tough times, to let staff go for the six months required for a territorial, while others would see it as a financial relief because the army would be paying their wages.
Brigadier Gawn said the army would look at how it could tap into the Government's proposed nine-day working fortnight. For example, the day off could be used to complete the minimum 20 days' training for a rookie territorial. "We haven't gone down that track yet, but it's something that is being looked at.
"Defence is seen as a potential contributor to that sort of thing [a nine-day working fortnight] and the territorial force lends itself to it, particularly as we are looking to grow our numbers."
There are about 1750 territorials but at least 2000 are needed. Retention is difficult because as part-time soldiers get older, family and employment demands intensify. Many are forced to quit their jobs when they are deployed overseas.
Although the use of part-time soldiers has long been a successful practice for the army, it is only now being adopted by the air force.
Air Commodore Gavin Howse said a deal with Air New Zealand could see pilots flying an airliner one day and putting on a flight suit the next. Newly trained pilots already are being released to Air New Zealand for a two-year secondment that sees the air force pay their wages.
Pilots who have left the air force to work for Air New Zealand will also be encouraged to come back on a part-time basis.
The scheme is likely to expand to other areas, particularly to avionic technicians of which there is a general shortage in New Zealand.
"It's more visionary that practical at the moment but we are committed to the relationship."

Http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2260344/military-moves-to-cope-with-recession

[Got the horn]

There's two on a Q300 course now. Both with about 400 hours total I've been told. Anyone else heard that?

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Yep two just finished ground course at Air Nelson. The tax payer is funding the whole thing from sim to paying their wages. Air Nsn get free pilots who will be easier to control than those pesky ALPA ones.

It will be interesting to see what terms and conditions they will be employed under. The rumour is that a 400hr airforce FO gets paid more than Air Nelson pays their new Captains. If this is true then it will drive a wedge further between the pilots and management.

[27/09]

The initiatives come as the military looks at how it can maintain its reservist numbers and deal with the effects of the recession.


Sooooooooooooooo WTF has putting RNZAF pilots into Air Nelson to do with the current economic downturn?

Doesn't make sense from where I sit, or perhaps there is a bigger picture. :hmm:

Are Air Nelson pilots going to get the chance to have a squirt in Herc's and Orions and get paid better money while they are there?

[Pamelah Andersen]

F:bored::eek::E the Herc or dildo-tail what about a SIOUX?

[DeltaT]

Well well well, seems people with low hours, AND not even in the GA scene can be admitted into Air Nelson when it suits them

Where are all you over zealous defenders of Air Nelson now?!

[Konev]

mount cook 6 request buzz and break for runway 23.:ok:

[cribble]

There are undoubtedly some fish-hooks from an industrial point of view but they can probably be overcome.
Having spoken to a few ex military pilots it is evident that most would take their own pack lunch, and crawl over a fair bit of broken glass, to do reserve flying (note to 'Tott and Gav- I could probably supply my own flight jacket, and could thus save a few bucks. I would even consider removing the A4 and 75 Sqn patches.. ..".greater love than this hath no man...").

[AerocatS2A]

I'd say it's highly likely they'd have 50 hours recent NZ IF.

What it has to do with the economy is probably that an RNZAF pilot can eventually get paid more flying in civilian life. So by allowing them to work part time civilian and part time air force the RNZAF can maintain its numbers and avoid the pilots leaving the RNZAF for good. This is about protecting the RNZAF not Air NZ.

If the Air Nelson guys had the desire and the right attributes to fly for the RNZAF they'd already be doing it, so I can't see this going both ways.

And sure, this might not be a great thing for relations between the groups of pilots, just have to see how it pans out I guess.

[27/09]

AerocatS2A

My question was to do with the recession. I don't see the reasoning here unless of course it's to help Air Nelson by giving them some cheap pilots. I also wonder that the company management might have other plans in about 3 years or so.

Yes I can see how it might help the reservist situation, however I would have thought the reservist thingy would not have been a problem especially when you read;

Having spoken to a few ex military pilots it is evident that most would take their own pack lunch, and crawl over a fair bit of broken glass, to do reserve flying

If the Air Nelson guys had the desire and the right attributes to fly for the RNZAF they'd already be doing it

Tongue in cheek, one could also say this comment goes both ways. :)

[Sqwark2000]

If the RNZAF chaps have about 400hrs they'd be only a year or more off wings course, hardly the type that would be considering or allowed a move to civil flying yet given their 10yr return of service. They'd also be only Flying Officer, or at the outside Flight Lieutenant, rank which from memory, a FGOFF would not earn more than 50K and a FLTLT would not be more than 60K unless the NZDF has substantially raised it's pay scales.

I wonder if the RNZAF has actually got more pilots than it needs and this is a way to maintain their skills rather than posting to a ground tour

[XRNZAF]

I also wonder if its a case of freeing up what would appear to be an over-committed King air fleet.

With those 6 king airs having to take every pilot (those destined for fixed wing AND rotary squadrons) off the air trainer and turn them into breveted pilots. Then if they are going to 40 or 5 sqn there is significant further hour building to do. All the while trying to meet the transport and VIP commitments of an operational transport squadron.

Seems like a year or two on the dash might make bridging the gap between the B-200 and C-130 a little easier for all concerned(?)

[distracted cockroach]

Makes the extra time spent negotiating the infamous Air NZ scope clause all the more worthwhile don't it?
Believe there have been several cases of Air NZ (mainline) pilots being given LWOP to return to the RNZAF...perhaps with salary top-ups to match what they were getting at Air NZ?

[Bongo Bus Driver]

"Air Commodore Gavin Howse said a deal with Air New Zealand could see pilots flying an airliner one day and putting on a flight suit the next. Newly trained pilots already are being released to Air New Zealand for a two-year secondment that sees the air force pay their wages."

The problem is nobody knows what contract the air force pilots will be flying under and if they will even be on the senority list. Management say that they will not be part of the establishment numbers. But if the program is a sucess what will stop every RNZAF pilot having a Dash rating?

CAA could give them a dispensation for an ATPL on reduced hours because they are, as Remoak puts it on another tread, recipients of magical RNZAF training.

Imagine complete RNZAF flt crews flying for Air Nsn. This will be a huge hurdle for the mainly unionised pilot group when it comes to contract negotiations. Strike action would be severely mitigated when you combine RNZAF, FEDs and independent pilots.

Air Nsn will not employ extra civilian pilots if they can find others to fly for them for free. So effectively GA pilots scratching for hours on minute pay packets will be taxed so it can be spent on Air Force pilots paying to fly for Air Nelson. Thus the opportunities for career progression are reduced.

[XRNZAF]

Just caught up with a mate of mine who's fresh off his wings course. He said he's one of two guys on his way to Nelson for ground course as part of this scheme so far, for a 1 year secondment depending on conversion courses for C-130/P-3.

Received a CPL in the post. Just had to do a civvy MEIR test and they're away...

All good news for those guys, but have to wonder about the consequences for GA. :suspect:

[ZK-NSN]

I don't see the reasoning here unless of course it's to help Air Nelson by giving them some cheap pilots.

Better than cheap, probably free. Maybe even turn a profit?

Where are all you over zealous defenders of Air Nelson now?!

Letting the union sort it out I imagine.

Word is some Air Nelson pilots have been invited on a live-firing exersize, but they have to bring their own bag of rocks to throw.

[Cypher]

This is just firkin wrong....

[hadenuff]

Perhaps I should have just continued to bite my tongue, and will now undoubtably get flamed. XRNZAF is on the money, there is a lack of middle experience pilots in the RNZAF (cause they all leave) and command wants to ramp up numbers for the future (NH90/upgraded P3 & C130).

So the genuises in Wellington solve the problem by going crazy with recruiting, which only draws in lots of guys at the bottom of the sausage machine with little experience at a time when 40 & 5 SQN are running reduced conversion courses awaiting the upgrade projects on the C130/P3 to be completed.

Result... To many guys sitting around on the B200, with nowhere to go. The guys off to NSN (all two of them) will remain RNZAF employees and receive RNZAF pay (yes more than an FO, but not quite as much as a skipper), they are supposed to be extra's over and above NSN's compliment and certainly won't be accruing seniority or ever taking a command. The postings are only for a year, and are meant to gain the guys some experience. (as mentioned by some level headed posts) Don't panic, as they're still under their military 10 year bonds so won't be jumping ship at the end of the year and robbing the boys/girls at Sunair of their chance.

As for crews of RNZAF pilots taking over NSN, CAA handing out ATPL's at reduced requirements thanks to "magical training", and every military pilot getting a Dash 8 rating... lol!!! :}

[timetime]

Its all tax funded........ Different uniform is all:O

[cribble]

:DTimetime
The difference is that Air NZ pays a dividend (the major shareholder probably likes this quite a lot) and tax (refer to earlier in the sentence).

[outboundjetsetter]

I fly with many "EX" Airforce crews, and love flying with them however..
I think its pretty wrong .. putting in RNZAF staff into NSN.. old boys club ex RNZAF members in nsn helping the force by recruitment to an already communist type airline now.. whats more.. think about these sun air type lads who actually have the initiative to save hard study, and aspire to something for which THEY have funded for .. in their civilian world.
Air NZ may be short of crew in a few years from now.. with 60+ domestic turbo props, but i doubt they are short of crews 'now'.. perhaps they could even use airnz intl crews whom ive heard have now been offered leave without pay?
if the rumors are true offering atpl's for 400 hour pilots i think this is sets complete double standards also.

[PegasusFury99]

Reading this and other posts about the NZ & Australian aviation scene makes me see how lucky I am. I left NZ 20yrs ago as no company in NZ would even give me an interview. Now, &0,000 hrs later, §000 Comd on B737 I am pleased I am not involved in the petty bitching that permeates the NZ scene. Those of you who are there, your comments and actions are a disgrace to the profession of aviation. If you dont like it- then SHUT UP and GET OFF THIS PLANET. There are alot of worthy pilots out there who deserve your jobs more than you.
MANGEMENT - You too are also a disgrace to aviation. Bad or poor management is the route of ALL discent within the ranks. Perhaps if YOU looked CLOSELY at yourselves and your management ability and style, you would see your shortcomings.
I realise this advice is useless because from my and others experience of ´kiwis who have done long haul OEs and come home looking for jobs´ you despise us because of our experience. There seems to be an attitude of ´flying in NZ is YERY DEMANDING etc etc. What routes in NZ will give the fol ? - T/O vis 150m Fz FG, 5hrs later land in a sand storm, then that evening CAT3 landing on mins.

Enjoy tiny tot land! :sad:

[Runaway Gun]

PF99, I'd hire ya. Maybe myself appear not so grumpy - in comparison :)

[max rate]

:bored:Talk about unstable! you sure you get through the psych Pegasus?

[ZK-NSN]

Good call Max rate. :D

Pegasus: Forget the med's this morning?

[SnotNoseJockey]

Give me a break Pegasus

Hardly a challenge watching your plane do all of the work from take-off to touchdown. You da man!!

[PegasusFury99]

Max Rate - Did your mgt do a psych test when they joined the company?
- So why make pilots do one now?
- Does it improve safety?
- Or just identify drinking pals?
I've been flying for 30yrs and I've seen the wheel re-invented a few times, but there is one thing that has never changed.
Have you ever noticed how **** and some airline staff are similar - they both float to the top.
:ok:

[max rate]

:}And have YOU ever noticed how bitter and twisted expat pilots' become when they figure out they cant bring their 1000, 0000 hrs back home and slip into the left hand seat of the aircraft of their choosing? It is called seniority. It aint perfect but it is the fairest way, get used to it.

[DeltaT]

Absolute Bollix

[max rate]

I rest my case...................

[DeltaT]

...only because it suits you doesn't it

[horserun]

well is suits me too.

[PegasusFury99]

It is obivious that the only one who is bitter - is MAX RATE !:}

[trimotor]

Someone was whining that these seconded RNZAF pilots will get ATPL's with 400TT...when did that pop up?

Do you need an ATPL to yank the gear on the Q300? No? Really? Should be OK with a CPL then.

[ZK-NSN]

if the rumors are true offering atpl's for 400 hour pilots i think this is sets complete double standards also.

The legal minimum is 1500hrs total time for an ATPL issue. Never let the facts (or Law) get in the way of a good story.

It is obivious that the only one who is bitter - is MAX RATE !
Good come back, similar to the "I know you are but what am I?" that 6 year olds use.

me three.:ok:

[max rate]

NSN.

Couldn't agree more. It's like having an argument with a preschooler who can't spell .....obivious (sic). To show how grown up I am though, I would be happy for Delta or Pegasus to be my First officer..................as long as they don't touch anything! Of course they don't want to come back to "tiny tot land" (I thought that might have been Pegs preschool, he must have been beaten up by the other kids.) :}

[slamer.]

Ummm seniority works for me ......:O

You know... you guys want to return home straight to the left hand seat of some jet with Air NZ..but most pilots (probably all) at Air NZ would have your quals, plus some, so whats the advantage to the Company...?

And why would you want to fly in freezing fog, Cat111, sand storms etc unless you had to (especially in one day) fraid I dont see that as a plus...

[DeltaT]

be happy for Delta or Pegasus to be my First officer..................as long as they don't touch anything!

Good one, I see your multi crew skill is really showing through.
I know its a novel concept here in NZ.


Lets play your Seniority game! It works for me too kiddies, whats the bet my NZ licence was issued before yours, lets compare licence numbers shall we?

For F**** Sake.

but most pilots (probably all) at Air NZ would have your quals

Ahh, they must be gods aye?

[slamer.]

LOL...nice bluff....:ok:.....lets see if the others take the bait

[ZK-NSN]

Licence? I have a foodtown card, does that count?

[slamer.]

No...just well qualified.........:cool:

[PegasusFury99]

Ahhhhh - children Children CHILDREN !
Sit down and be quiet.
Now lets stop the playground bitching and all live together like one big happy family.

- What a waste of breath and energy that statement was.

Frankly, I enjoy working in Europe/Middle East, Soviet states, North Africa with 300hr TT F/Os from several nations. They all have a great 'open' attitude to flying and working with Capts from different nations. We all live and WORK together happily. Even speak different languages on the flight deck and in the cabin. Great having language lessons after flying at dinner - or is that 'dessert?':E !! mmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMM :O:ok:

[Bongo Bus Driver]

The fact that the RNZAF pilots have low hours is not the real concern here.

My problem with these guys is that they are military pilots on military pay scales being used in a civilian work place. The RNZAF is paying Air NZ to train them and they are also paying their salaries.

Air NZ issued a statement a few days ago threatening to make pilots at Air Nsn and Eagle redundent because ATC towers were going to close for lunch. Both those airlines have the capacity to operate into uncontrolled airspace and do so at the moment. There was no need to make that threat unless Air NZ is looking for an excuse to reduce pilot numbers because they have just found a source of FREE RNZAF pilots.

For those of you that have gone overseas and been successful go on you. It is sad that that you struggle to return home and have your experience recognised but that is true of many other professions. Several of my friends outside of aviation did their OEs got great jobs that where very well paid. When they returned home the opportunities here were not the same and many left again.

In order for the oppurtunities in this country to be brought up to those available overseas we have to fight for better working conditions. If Air NZ are allowed to use RNZAF pilots that incur no cost to them then the pool of union pilots is reduced and negoiating for better conditions will become so much harder.

[Massey058]

Well said Bongo Bus Driver :D

[PegasusFury99]

I concur.
Ref my previous post - $hit floats to the top. The scum is now floating on the top of NZ aviation.
:(

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Yep but $hit can always be flushed. It just takes a strong union to step up and push the button. Does anyone know what ALPA intends to do about this problem?

[Sqwark2000]

i've heard that because they are supposedly above established numbers, the RNZAF guys are not displacing anyone and there's not much they can do other than monitor the established strength and make sure the company doesn't "forget" to hire new co's to maintain the required numbers....

[Bongo Bus Driver]

I believe the company has done a back pedal and the last two FO slots in Wellington have been allocated to the RNZAF which will bring the WN base upto the required establishment numbers. This is only rumour mind so only time will tell.

[Water Wings]

So I'm guessing Air Nelson will require an exemption for these guy's. I doubt they comply with rule 121.511 in regards to either the total time or ATO time. Good to know the CAA is prepared to change the rules when it suits :hmm:. I'm well aware exemptions have been granted for this rule in the past but (to my knowledge) only for the likes of experienced Instructors or ex Air Force guys who only lacked the ATO time.

121.511 Pilot experience
The certificate holder shall ensure that each person acting as a pilot, other
than as pilot-in-command, of an aeroplane, prior to commencing the
training specified in Subpart I or Subpart M—
(1) has acquired at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot, including
at least 100 hours of flight time in air operations; and
(2) has acquired at least 25 hours of night flight experience; and
(3) holds a current instrument rating.

[Sqwark2000]

I believe the company has done a back pedal and the last two FO slots in Wellington have been allocated to the RNZAF which will bring the WN base upto the required establishment numbers.

Air Nelson have interviewed 10 aviators today with a view to hire 8. Possibly another round in a couple of weeks. These are meant to crew the last two DH8-300's coming on line next month and June. These aircraft are assigned to Auckland and Wellington apparently.

[blah blah blah]

So I'm guessing Air Nelson will require an exemption for these guy's. I doubt they comply with rule 121.511 in regards to either the total time or ATO time. Good to know the CAA is prepared to change the rules when it suits . I'm well aware exemptions have been granted for this rule in the past but (to my knowledge) only for the likes of experienced Instructors or ex Air Force guys who only lacked the ATO time.

Is this not the case for anyone going to Air Nelson with less than 100 hours ATO? I think there are a few ex instructors that wouldnt have any ATO time, therefore needing an exemption as well. Are they any different than the RNZAF guys in terms of CAA regs?

[flyboy007]

PF99.

At which point in your 70000000 hours, did it become a good idea to take off in freezing fog?

[Fark'n'ell]

Is this not the case for anyone going to Air Nelson with less than 100 hours ATO? I think there are a few ex instructors that wouldnt have any ATO time, therefore needing an exemption as well. Are they any different than the RNZAF guys in terms of CAA regs?

I know four guys who got into Air Nelson whithin the last five years without any ATO experience. Instructing only.

[Sqwark2000]

I understood that Air Nelson had an exemption for new pilots starting on the SAAB, but that exemption was withdrawn with the introduction of the Dh8-300.

Maybe the exemption has been re-issued...

[PegasusFury99]

Flyboy007

Refer to ICAO De-Icing Tables: Holdover Times
Do you know what these are?
- Obviously not due to your question
Check Type IV details - Don't think this exists in OZ/NZ:suspect::(:hmm:
:suspect::sad::(:ooh:

[haughtney1]

Flyboy 007.....

Perhaps you've taken leave of your senses, taking off in freezing fog is no problem with the correct type of fluid, at the correct concerntration....in fact its no bother at all, I did it in Chicago a few months ago..and lived to tell the tail :hmm:

This is all wrong btw, the RNZAF should stick to inflating their egos' and being frustrated they don't have anymore fastjets...they should leave flying airliners to the professionals IMHO

[cribble]

:rolleyes:Which was it Haughts, not selected or chopped?

[slamer.]

PF99

Where do you think Air NZ flys to....:rolleyes:

[shallow gene pool]

Good point slamer, YVR, LHR, PEK all come to mind -they're all ANZ B777/747 routes...
Freezing fog T/O's are allowed in the ANZ B777's as long as Boeing's Bulletin 9R2 is complied with.
PF99, give us a break, while some of us may not be based in Europe/UK etc it doesn't mean that we don't get to see nasty wx phenomenon. And as far as your hassling of Max Rate goes, I know the guy and couldn't think of a more intelligent, level headed, damn good CRM displaying pilot. The fact that some of us choose to stay in "Tiny Tot" land may just be because we place living and raising a family in NZ ahead of career progression.....
SGP

[haughtney1]

Neither Cribble, I went off to uni and got myself a couple of degrees' and I'm currently working on my third in my spare time:ok:
My point is, the RNZAF have no business in the world of commercial aviation, much like I have no business in the world of military aviation.

[PegasusFury99]

Flyboy 007

One thing that has been said to me more than once about flying in NZ
-- "Its a VERY DEMANDING environment to fly in"

Sorry - There are MORE DEMANDING places else where in the WORLD.

AND----------, before YOU ask,

YES - I have flown in NZ, including WLG on a windy day!

Haughty - WELL DONE :ok:

[nike]

I agree, NZ is a demanding environment to fly in, and there are more demanding places also.

[Runaway Gun]

When I return Down Under, I hope it's not out of place to put on my CV:

"Whilst overseas, my flying also endured working with the following angry pilots (Listed in Pprune alphabetical order)...."

;) Would that get me any Kudos Points?

[Captain Sand Dune]

I suppose by "angry" you mean "chips on their shoulders".:}
Predictable though.:hmm:

[ZK-NSN]

"Its a VERY DEMANDING environment to fly in"

Sorry - There are MORE DEMANDING places else where in the WORLD.


Of course there are, its all beer and skittles down here in tiny tot land.
You could have the whole book of ICAO charts and fluid for Africa but it would be a waste of time because if there was freezing Fog in NZ nobody would even be able to get to the Airport. Hell, even 3 cm of snow is enough to cause chaos. What makes NZ a demanding environment is a combination of weather, facilities and the amount of remote operations that occurs here across the industry as a whole.

[DeltaT]

What makes NZ a demanding environment is the number of pilots produced from every tinpot aeroclub, where pilots are trained and produced for a 'licence' and nothing more. To the severe lack of pilot positions available, to the lack of equipment for pilots to even gain experience on for those positions. - 146 twins below a B200 (Oct08) v's 360 new CPL(A) 2008.
Anyone here outside of an airline had a IR renewal test in a simulator in NZ? Thought not. Its not possible, not even in the regs.
Some of the aviation requirements/rules for currency on aircraft types, to ABC Instructor ratings are archiac and do nothing but line the pockets of establishments.
NZ is then further hampered by those in recruitment, who have ideas of god knows what.
O, and you do know Australia has a minimum wage award for pilots don't you, the lowest pay being A$33k, (aka VFR P1 C152), about NZ$40k...