CargoLion lost battle......

[wheelchock]

Sadly enough, today CargoLion informed all employees, that the company has come to an end.The airline has filed for bankruptcy today, as far as i understood it, and all personal are made redundant.

A sad day for all of us.It really shows how much the EU is supporting European company's (not!!!!!!!), especially it shows how Luxembourg CAA is supporting Luxembourg based carriers, and full JAA compliant outfits (again not!!!).What's the use of even beeing a JAR carrier?I don't know.A 9G or a 9Q reg will get you further, obviously...

Well I guess it's time to go back to non EU carriers, and time to really f*uck all the EU rules and regs, looks like the only way to operate in Europe, unless you're a major.

BP, thanks for the great ride while it lasted, and hope you feel don't feel to bad.

Hope to see most of you on the yet unscheduled CargoLion bye bye Party soon......

[Flying_Steph]

I believe in a rumor saying that BeePee personally garanteed all the pay checks for April. Yes folks, this means that the Boss is taking money from his own pocket to pay the people who worked with him !!!
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

I really hope the Lion will turn into a Phoenix pretty soon. I just can't believe a Spirit like that might disappear without a trace.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[CargoRat2]

Damn. I'm really sorry to hear this. Give CLX a call, we always seem to be short of drivers.
http://www.cargolux.com/
Look under "contact us"; online application.



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rgds Rat

[stanley]

I am sorry to here to,i was in the same position last year with Transaer,E.A.T. are short on the Bo727 and A300 in BRU ,worth a try

[alapt]

Sadly enough the Lion has stopped roaring... for now. Like previously stated, the Phoenix might return!!
Yes BP has been good to us and he has stated that he will pay all outstanding salaries owed to all employees. Now that's integrety. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
Unfortunately, most of us are out of luck because we do not have EU licenses. The law of the jungle I guess?
What else can be said? We could all bitch, complain, rant or rave but that won't change anything. Although I will say one thing, when Cargolux wet leases a South American DC-10 to do Lux/SA, it does hurt!!!

To help out your fellow pilots that are now unemployed any leads for potential work will be greatly appreciated. E-mail Cargo Lion with details.

In the mean time gents, keep the blue side up.

[CargoRat2]

Alapt: That South American DC10 (I presume you mean Cielos del Peru) has NOTHING to do with Cargolux.


------------------
rgds Rat

[Stall4All]

I'm sorry for you guys.
If I recall right you fly DC8 and DC10 so I've tried to find out which operators i know use the DC10:
Airtours Int. (UK)- www.airtours.co.uk (http://www.airtours.co.uk)
JMC Airlines (UK)- phone +44 (161) 489 5757
Monarch Airl. (UK)- www.monarch-airlines.com (http://www.monarch-airlines.com)
Iberia (Sp)- www.iberia.com (http://www.iberia.com)
Air Liberte (Fr)- phone +33(1)4979 2300
OAM Airlines (Fr)- www.aom.ch (http://www.aom.ch)
PremiAir (DK)- www.premiair.dk (http://www.premiair.dk)

DC8:
Cygnus Air (Sp)-sorry no further info
Iberia (Sp)-see above

This is all I could find with the same types, hope you can do something with it.
If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask and I will check my Dbase for phonenumbers etc.

Good Luck

Stall

[wheelchock]

Thanx Stall! But unfortunately most of us don't hold a JAR lic.But we'll keep lookin'.

[Ireland's Call]

Very sorry to hear this, it's never nice to see a fellow European cargo carrier go down.

We here at Aer Turas might well have vacancies on the DC8-63F coming up in the very near future, if intersted send CV's to
[email protected] for the attention of the FOM Capt Matt Kirwan. Or fax us at +353-1-8446049.

We are currently operating for TNT nightly ex DUB on the weekdays, leaving us free on weekends for our ad hoc and bloodstock charters.

Best of look eveyone whatever you all decide to do.

[CrashDive]

Now perhaps it's not the time and the place, but I must say that it's wonderful to see other aviation professionals rallying round our fallen brethren with advice, contacts, offers, etc....

So, please, please, keep it up - because (and imho), if PPRuNe serves no other purpose than to provide relevant info to aid and abet folks who find themselves in this awful plight then it'll be more then worthwhile all the time, effort, and expense that providing this service costs us - well done one and all - and the best of luck to those affected.

Ps. Uhm, just where did I put that copy Rolf Harris's 'Two Little Boys' ?! ;)

------------------
CrashDive

Administrator to The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

May you live in interesting times !

[upwiththebirds]

Bad News...
Try MK Airlines or maybe DAS Air cargo. Both have offices near LGW and operate DC8's and DC10's respectively. Don't have addresses but they should be in Flight Intl. They've just published their annual listing of airlines worldwide if you know someone who gets it. Don't know the requiements for the above airlines either but maybe they're worth a call. Good Luck

[Max Pointers]

It is an interesting point brought out by Wheelchock at the begining of this thread about non-EU carriers able to operate freely throughout Europe and most of the previous comments about this subject seem to be aimed at carriers from the USA, however whilst everybody was looking westward CAL the Israeli Cargo Air Lines has signed an agreement with the Belgian authorities to operate between Liege and New York.
If this sort of cavalier behavior by European regulatory authorities continues it will not only be companies like Cargolion that suffer.
It does not give anybody the incentive to start a freight airline in Europe as long as the EU goverments are going to lay down and roll over for any foreign carrier without a similar open skies policy in return.
Very sorry for you Cargolion guys and Bee Pee hope things get better and PDQ.

[CargoRat2]

MaxPointers: while your post is true, let's leave that to the various past posts (and no doubt the many to come re this subject).
Anyone who has any ideas for our colleagues down the other end of the ramp...
BTW: That was a nice gesture from BeePee

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rgds Rat

[Electric Sky]

Having been through 2 airline redundancies in 5 years I sympathise with all affected by this. Sadly, if you work for the smaller airlines it seems that you end up being knocked from pillar to post. Unfortunately the smaller airlines are usually the best to work for. All I can say is good luck to you all ....

[Roadtrip]

Why couldn't Cargolion, a EU CARRIER, get some 747-400s and the contract that BA gave to Atlas. Been seeing a lot about how unfair is it for Atlas to compete in the Euro market, but why can't EU cargo carriers provide the service that BA wants. WHY CAN'T EU CARRIERS COMPETE IN THEIR OWN MARKET??? I DON'T GET IT. Somebody please enlighten me.

P.S. - Still can't believe that BALPA allows BA to outsource THEIR jobs.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Coco Chanel]

The people working for Cargo Lion lived under a dark cloud for the past six months. Did they get the contract and if so, when would the money come in? Would they get paid on time, and as it turned out when they didn't for five months straight, could they personally keep on maxing out their VISA cards until the salary hit the bank account? Should they look for a new job or be loyal to the Lion?

Most of them kept the faith, month after month -- even though each month brought more bad news, and the loss of their AOC last month should have been the final nail in the coffin. But even then, they believed that no matter how bad it was, how dark those clouds were, that up above was blue sky and Cargo Lion could be turned around.

Cargo Lion had many outstanding personnel. Pick them up. You won't be disappointed with their talent, commitment -- or character.

[The Guvnor]

Unfortunately, Upwiththebirds MK Airlines will only employ you if you're Zimbabwean and DAS Air also prefers East Africans.

Strange, really, as both of those carriers are to all intents and purposes UK based, with administration, operations and technical bases here - yet thanks to their third world Flag of Convenience operations they fall outside the control of the JAA/CAA and regrettably the DETR doesn not seem to want to take action!

This means that their 'red tape' and compliance costs are much lower than those of European carriers - and now, once again, we have seen the demise of a first rate European airline thanks to these cowboys. :mad: :mad:

At least ATLAS is run - and the aircraft are flown - by true professionals that comply with their regulations!

Cargolion has now joined the roll of honour that includes such British carriers as Anglo Cargo, Tradewinds, British Cargo, Pelican Air Transport, Scimitar, Redcoat etc etc http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[blowawayjet]

It really doesn't matter whether MK and the others can operate and do what ever they want out of Europe.If I was Mike Krueger, I would do the same thing.The thing what does strike me, is that we had our AOC pulled by the Burger CAA, without a real clear reason.

This action caused indeed the airline to end up in the sh*t.It just proves that it's really a waste of time and money to be a full JAA/JAR compliant airline, and also proves that you will not get any help from the EU.

The ending of CargoLion isn't the fault of other company's really.It's a combination of a lot of other things, including the well willingness of the Burger CAA.

Hope to see all you guys soon in Lux for this party!

[Greek God]

The Guvnor
"This means that their 'red tape' and compliance costs are much lower than those of European carriers - and now, once again, we have seen the demise of a first rate European airline thanks to these cowboys."
As a businessman the exploitation of opportunities is what makes a success the business. Do not blame MK for the lack of legistation which allows him to operate out of the UK, within the law and in compliance of their AOC. Until the DETR changes things they are totally legitimate and work damn hard for their success. To call them "cowboys" on that basis says much for your character and shows how little you know of their operation.

My sympathies to all at The Lion - may they roar again soon.

[This message has been edited by Greek God (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Bozzo]

Coco Chanel you hit the nail on the head: "to leave or be loyal" in the end loyalty didn't pay.

Guvnor, the real problem was not MK, or others of that ilk, but internal. And all the internal problems can be laid at the door of one person - the president. Even though others may have made poor management decisions, ultimately, just like in the aircraft, the captain is responsible. In this case the Cargo Lion captain is the president.

Who in their right mind would purchase a DC10 with no firm contract? Which business when faced with recession does not cut back on costs by reducing staff. OK it may be nice and sentimental not to lay off a single employee but now everyone is laid off.

Cargo Lion had contract after contract with many airlines. Virtually all of them were lost due to short sighted maintenance leading to AOGs leading to loss of contracts.

Combine this with a commercial department that never left the office (until the last lot, who were too late to have a chance) and considered PR a dirty word.

However the biggest problems were the "head in the sand synrome" and the "I know better than everyone else" syndrome. Well we all know the outcome of these management policies. On top of this was the presidents inability to fire employees for incompetence but this was probably in itself the final incompetence.

[Roadtrip]

Again, why do we have EU airlines like Cargolion doing a corporate crash and burn while BA outsources to the likes of Atlas? Why can't a EU/UK cargo carrier be run well and take the business???

[basil fawlty]

It is somewhat annoying to read posts that
imply that non EU registered carriers based in Europe operate to a lower standard. People I have flown with in such airlines are skilled, competant, qualified and very experienced individuals, often flying more demanding aircraft and routes, under a great deal of commercial pressure. Aviation IS AND SHOULD BE AN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS. Some people are just snobs, and should grow up!!

[blowawayjet]

I don't recall seeing anything about that non EU registered carriers based in Europe operate to a lower standard.I used to work for such an airline before(Non EU that is), and our standards where high.

[palebird]

Bozzo:

You are right in most respects.Unfortunately you do not seem to understand that the majority of contracts were "lost" not to any one departments incompetance. What people see on the streets and what actually takes place behind closed doors are two separate issues. Cargo Lion had to change its operating strategy to survive. It tried to change too late and in the wrong direction. Offering antiquated equipment complying to JAR standards at antiquated equipment rates does not work. The numbers do not ring. Their simply is not enough money to go around and somewhere the pinch has to be felt. DC8's should have been abandoned years ago and 747's should have been adopted as per MK and just about everyone else. But as you say"head in the sand"

[wheelchock]

Whatever partner!Why should you care?

[palebird]

Guess what. I don't!!

[Roadtrip]

CargoLion. Yet another example where pilot salaries killed an otherwise fine operation . . . NOT.

[alapt]

Oh yes you do partner :rolleyes:

[BeePee]

Hi everybody,

First of all many thanks folks. It was a privilege to enjoy such an outstanding supportive, dedicated and loyal workforce. This outstanding support helped tremendously and might pay off for a project “Phoenix”. The demise of Cargo Lion certainly wasn’t caused by high salaries or any lack of professionalism.

Critics against management: I started my aviation charier as a pilot who thought, like many of you, that it would be easy to improve a lot of things the management does. Believe me it’s not that easy. Being the boss doesn’t give you free decisions, it means considering many different options/opinions and to stick to rules. That has absolutely nothing to do with the "head in the sand syndrome" or the "I know better than everyone else" syndrome. People who believe that haven’t understood anything yet.

Bozzo, it’s simply not true that Cargo Lion went through many contracts because of maintenance. Cargo Lion mainly operated short to medium term contracts. The main problems for Cargo Lion aside from the unfair conditions in Europe were the DC10 (see below) and a problem caused by Timco. The person responsible for that in-house lost his job over that.

The acquisition of aircraft isn’t a simple task. Firstly, we didn’t get the DC10 without contract. In a ‘chicken and situation’ we still had some business lined up but became victim of our clients diminishing market. The DC10 wasn’t the aircraft of first choice but the best option within realistic reach. In our case a 747-200 wouldn’t have worked either.

B747-400 (or even MD11): We would have loved to get a big fleet. It was just a matter of the required pocket money. In Europe you can’t go to the stock market as easily as in the US to get mega millions.

EU/JAA/JAR: One shouldn’t blame any business taking advantage of the policies of the EU. They are quite right to exploit this lack of understanding by the JAA. While having created a quite good platform to increase aviation safety with the JARs the JAA and the EU have destroyed the same by allowing any third world (or wanna be third world) or other foreign carrier take any business in the EU. The US got it right: by enforcing a foreign carrier licensing they same rights and duties for everybody.

A word about the rogue carriers free allowed in Europe. It is not a question whether their management or staff are professional or not. The point is that they operate outside of any real aviation authority supervision and in the tough competition of our market they are forced to cut corners. Thus the lack of expensive spares and/or tired professionals diminishes safety.

The aim of a foreign air carrier licence in the EU would not be to ban such carriers but to help them to enforce better standards. The result would be an improved and safer market for all of us.

BeePee

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Diesel 8 forever!

[wheelchock]

Beepee,

We should organize a farewell BBQ this week.Most of us have found/are on the edge of getting new jobs.So before loosing complete contact with each other, we should organize something here.

To all the rest of you guys of ex TLX, who votes a yes here?

[Dark Skies]

To all my friends at Cargo Lion,

I was so sad to get the news, You all know me as Kevin from Belfast.

I have to say that it was a pleasure to have met and worked with every one of you.

I have worked for many companies and Cargo Lion was by far the best ever.

They say that if you get on well with the people you work with it makes the job easier.

Well, The job was fantastic because of you guys!! Thank you each and every one of you, from Admin and Ops, Crewing and Maintenance and all the Pilots and Loadmasters.

The last 2 years for me have been a time that I will never forget.

I am sure we will all take away memories of the good times, Blue umbrellas in TFN, The pool at the Mencey and the comradeship of a true bunch of bloody good blokes.

I doubt I could make a 'Farewell Bash' in LUX, but I would like to wish every last one of you the best of luck in your coming endeavours, what ever they may be, may you all find true happiness.

Thank you everyone of you for making my life 'richer' in every way especially experience and friendship.

As way of a Goodbye to you all, those who know me will know that I was always reading books by Ernest Gann, when a friend of his died he wrote this about them....

You are standing on a shore..somewhere. And a ship before you spreads her white sails and sets out across the blue ocean. She is a beautiful ship, tall and strong in mast and spar.
You watch her until she hangs like a speck of white cloud, just where the sea and sky mingle with each other.
And someone at your side says ‘There , well she's gone'
But, gone where? She is just as strong as when she left your shore, just as strong and able.
Her diminished size is in you, not in her. And when someone says 'Well she's gone. There are other eyes watching her coming and ready to take up the glad shout, 'There she comes!


Good Luck to you all, May we will all meet up again very soon, I sincerely hope so!


Kevin

[Loc-out]

Yes, sad to hear about Cargolion. Specially sorry to hear of the people its going to put out of work.

What does annoy me is this. Quite a few of the disgruntled ex employees are having a go at the JAA. One or two of them admitted to others not having JAA licences i.e. operating JAA A/C on validations. If that is not a flexible attitude demonstrated by the JAA, I don't know what is a flexible attitude. Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence. Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get. Personally I think the JAA are too damn soft.

[This message has been edited by Loc-out (edited 28 April 2001).]

[wheelchock]

Who asked for your opinion,Loc?Before talking nonsense, think twice.We weren't on JAA validations.Pls keep your stupidity to yourself.Thanks.

[Burger Thing]

To the Loc-Dude,

I think you are right. Because when a immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense, was probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn-soft...

To the Lion guys: I am sad to hear this kind of bad news. I really can understand your situation, since I am flying for a small cargo-company, too... Probably with similar up and downs....

Good Luck ! I wish you the best, and let's be positive !

[Burger Thing]

To the Loc-Dude,

I think you are right. Because when an immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense is probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn soft !

To the Cargolion-Guys,

I feels sad to hear this kind of bad news. I can understand your situation, because I am flying for a small cargo-operator as well, probably going through similar up and downs.

Good luck and I wish you all the best. But let's be positive !

[Loc-out]

Burger Thing (Meathead)

Now calm down. Keep taking the tablets. Your condition is curable, with a lot of help and time.

I draw your attention to Page 1 of this thread, alapt writes: "Unfortunately, most of us are out of luck because we do not have EU licenses" I interpret this to mean, if a pilot is not in possession of a EU licence, then he is in possession of a non eu licence. Do you follow me so far? Good. If the aforementioned pilot has been employed by Cargolion (JAA compliant?), then he must have been issued with a validation, if he was not the holder of a EU licence.

And yes, the EU/JAA are too soft. Will the FAA, for eg. issue a validation on the strength of a JAA/EU licence? Don't think so.

Then there is the work permit/Greencard subject. No level playing field there either.

[Burger Thing]

Oh Loc...

Maybe I was a bit emotional when I read your statement, because I came back from a nightfliht, so I was a bit tired, but nevertheless I read all the other statements (also the one on page 1) so no need to advise me to read this again.

In my process of being under cure, I will try to widen your aviation-horizon a bit, if I can, in order to remove your Loc-out flag, to put you back on the centerline.

"...Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence..."

-> This probably true, but think, why it is like that. It is not, because there is an evil company (Cargolion) which employes pilots with non-JAA licenses, just to make JAA-license holders angry and taking the jobs away...

They employ those pilots, because they want the most proficient and experienced pilots for their operation - DC-8/-10 type-rated, Cargo experienced (with all the problems and procedures involved, like dangerous goods, etc.) It makes for a rather small company a big difference, if they can hire pilots, and put them without a long (and so expensive)training into their operation.

I know what I am talking about, because I am flying in a very small company as well and every single penny counts and also where you have to be flexible, to meet the demands of the market.

Try to find (probably under time-pressure) a JAA-license holder, with DC-8 and DC-10 cargo experience, which is willing to to fly for a cargo-operator and also maybe willing to give up another position (new aircraft, Pax-flights, daytime shifts). I rather doubt, that you will find that many.

"...Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get..." What I know with my little experience, the FAA regulations concerning a convertion from JAA to FAA is more or less a reaction of the FAA from the attitude of European Aviation Authorities, regardng convertions from FAA to JAA. In the past it was not so difficult to make a conversion from a non-FAA to an FA ticket. Maybe you had to go through a little written test or making a checkride. But nevertheless it was much easier than the other way around, right ?

Granted, that it is almost impossible to get a working permission in the states, but also in Europe it is not that easy. I know a lot of pilots, who are high experienced, but they can't get a job in Europe, because they don't have a working permission, and a conversion is only possible with a lot of hassles - even if those guys having a license which is basically based on the UK system...

And as a personal advice to you: I would be a bit more sensible, putting statements like yours on the web, with having probably a very limited inside view of what was going on at cargolion, especially after what happended with the staff there

[wheelchock]

It just shows the ignorance and stupidity of you, Loc.But hey, keep on replying pls, amuse us with your nonsense.

Burger Thing,
I'm sorry, but i feel you're wasting your time, talking sense into this idiot Loc.Thanks for your positive reply and attitude towards us.

[Loc-out]

Yes, I put my hand up. I was wrong. I'm sorry

I didn't realise you guys are or were indispensable

[OO-AOG]

I had the pleasure to ride in one of your eights out of LGG while flying for TNT.
Good luck to all of you.