How do you get to fly Warbirds?

[beaver eager]

Maybe this should be in Wannabes but….

Eight years ago at the Farnborough Air show, I decided I couldn’t wait any longer to get airborne so, the following week I at last booked that trial lesson I’d been putting off for years, and thus began the slow road of self improvement. I channelled it all into becoming an Airline Pilot as soon as possible (i.e. every penny went on hours building or courses and not doing ‘fun’ things with aeroplanes – just flying was fun enough at that time). Anyway, things went very well and now I drive a regional jet from the LHS.

Yesterday, at Duxford Airshow the sight of 21 Spitfires and 3 Hurricanes in a ‘Big Wing’ (I never thought I’d ever see such a sight) reminded me of the wannabe feeling that first inspired me as a child when visiting airshows with my dad. And I realise that I need a new challenge….

So how do you become one of these lucky guys who get to fly WW2 warbirds and vintage jets. Is it just loads of money, or do you have to be ex-military and know the right people to get invited.

Probably I need to get a share in a Slingsby/Pitts or similar and start having some fun first…

What’s the deal folks?

[EX FTE]

Check out the back of Flyer etc; there is a group flying an ex-RAF Jet Provost that may do pleasure rides.

If you want to fly weird & wonderful ones - head East or West or South

The Russians have the MiG29 flights at Zhukovsky. The Yanks have loads of options including T-38s in Florida. There is also a guy called Mike Beachyhead who has Lightnings, Hunters, Buccaneers etc in South Africa.

In all cases, more important that flying skill (for pleasure rides) is MONEY!! A one hour ride in a Starfighter at Williams Arizona costs $1800!!

Have fun!!

(PS It is worth the effort - I managed to blag a ride in a Hawk at my old job - biggest smile I ever had - adrenalin took 4 days to subside!!)

[jagman]

If you're asking how you actually get to fly the warbirds yourself (ie Take part in the Duxford days etc)it's very much a closed shop of being 'in the know' I think.
After all,these machines are worth millions so they don't let you fly just 'cos you can fly - you've got to be good.
Ex-mil fast jets would be a good start or write to Stephen Grey who owns TFC (The Fighter Collection) at Duxford. The Old Flying Machine Co is also there. Buy all the mags and read about these people.
Interesting point is that when you go to one of these old timer airshows, the age of the pilots is quite advanced so OUR DAY WILL COME.
Here's hoping. I'd love to do it too.
If you do get the chance - don't stuff up as someone did recently. Had a 'near incident' in a Hellcat and is out of the 'scene' for ever. Quite rightly I suppose.....

[Roc]

Beavereager,

I've only had the opportunity to fly in a T-6, However, heres my advice, Get involved as much as you can by volunteering at a museum, or flying club etc that flys warbirds. These groups will aleays accept a volunteer. The ex-mil background helps alot as it gives one instant credibility, especially from the non-mil warbird owners. But either way, your flying an RJ, and that tells alot about your flying skills. If you can befriend a warbird owner or organization,I guarentee you as a minimum you can hop in the back seat for a ride. Its worth it!!! I"m a C-141 pilot in the reserves, 3 years ago I volunteered to do a flyby at a warbird airshow, Now the organizers call me up asking if I can haul some of the equipment they dont have to the show. So by working with them I've been kidding around about getting a B-17 ride, their answer was if you can help us out we;d be happy!!! Looking forward to it. Good Luck

[WebPilot]

Spencer Flack (he of the bright red fighters) bought his Spitfire G-SPIT because he wanted to fly one but found it was a case of "If you havn't flown a Spitfire before, then you're not going to fly mine". It seems to be something of a closed shop.

The way must be to get taildragger experience and work your way up. Depending on where you are, a would be a good starting point - not that many about for hire, but there is one at Wickenby in Lincs.

Best of luck!

[WebPilot]

... in a CHIPMUNK...., I meant to say....

Dunno what happened there... brain must have gone offline for a moment....

Again.

[Miles High]

b e

Call Southern Flight Centre, at Shoreham Airport. (don't know tel no. but should be in book - if not let me know and i'll get it for you)

They operate a warbird and you can book yourself a ride - then maybe do a conversion i don't know but it's a start...

[Miles High]

A Harvard Warbird that is...

[beaver eager]

Thanks all,

Unfortunately, as a BALPA rep, giving loads of time to a Museum/Society (although it sounds interesting) would be difficult at the moment. Maybe I need to re-assess where my priorities in life lie.

Perhaps when I've negotiated a huge pay rise I'll be able to afford to do some of this stuff. Still, even my boss (She who must be obeyed) will probably let me spend the cost of a trip in a Harvard at Shoreham, so that seems like a good starting point.

In the meantime I'll keep buying those lottery tickets.

BTW - She didn't mind me spending £35k on the flying training, but now its pay-back time!

------------------
Keep it up!

[LowNSlow]

beaver eager, start off with some taildragger time in something cheap like a Cub. Once you're familiar with that try a Stearman (there's one at Swanton Morley for rent, it's a relatively cheap way to get big taildragger time)then try to get some Harvard time in. That way you are pretty much following the path that the wartime pilots did to get into a Spit or similar. Don't know how successful you'll be getting to drive a Spit but it seems like the only way you'll do it short of winning the lottery.

Good luck and keep us posted on any leads you get.

------------------
When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

[DOC.400]

Beaver Eager
For the Shoreham Harvard, ring Karen on 01273 462784. Fax: 01273 465538.
Enjoy!!

[Flying Lawyer]

Apart from those who buy their own, warbird pilots are either ex fighter pilots, or pilots with extensive aerobatics/display experience.
Knowing somebody involved in the warbird scene who can introduce and vouch for you obviously helps but, even then, only if you have military/aerobatics experience.
There's no shortage of pilots offering to fly warbirds but owners are understandably cautious given the safety considerations, the value of the aircraft and insurance considerations.
Realistically, working as a volunteer is unlikely to lead to flying anything more powerful than a Harvard - unless you fall into one of the categories listed. That said, volunteers who prove themselves genuinely committed over a period of time do get rides on positioning flights, with a few aeros en route!
For most of us, the Harvard was our introduction to warbirds but, even if you go no further, it's a great aircraft.
If you are serious about learning the fly a Harvard, learn to fly a tail-dragger properly first- a Chipmunk is ideal. I also got a few hours Stearman time which certainly helped with the feel of a big radial engine, but is not essential.

I'm sorry if this is discouraging, but owners' caution is sensible. My close friend, Mark Hanna, was killed in an Me109 a year ago. He genuinely was a natural, one of the best and most experienced warbird pilots in the world. Little did I think when we were building experience in a Pilatus P2, and then a Harvard, years ago that it would ultimately lead to such a tragic loss.

On a lighter note, if you get the chance to fly a Harvard for an hour - go for it. It will give you an exciting insight into warbird flying.

[ETOPS]

A little while ago I noticed my co-pilot glancing at one of those "Pilots Notes" publications. I asked what type it was for and he replied "Spifire MkIX". I said I thought some of those old books were really interesting but he stunned me by saying it wasn't out of idle interest he was reading it. He had his first solo that coming weekend and he wanted to learn the numbers!!
There again he was ex Red Arrows.....

[Davaar]

Beaver Eager. Good luck. It is not just the tail dragging thing, though.

When you are sitting behind a Merlin or Griffon, you are sitting behind a nose that stretches up into eternity and occupies a large part of your horizon; and you are not sitting behind Gypsy Major at 143 H.P.

A Merlin or Griffon delivers +/- 2,000 H.P. coupled to a three-bladed or more propeller. Those engines give instant response and those blades can hit the air like a brick wall. I believe jets spool up faster today than they used to, but even so, I suspect nothing like as fast as a big piston. Deliver that power in fine pitch at low speed, as has been done (though rarely twice at low altitude on approach by the same pilot)and you may find yourself in an airframe that is rotating round the propeller. This probably is not what you had in mind.

The torque is fierce. The first time I flew a Firefly T.2 the instructor (Knocker White, are you out there?)took it to the extreme right hand edge of the runway, nose pointing down the line, stopped, and said: "Watch this!".

He rammed the throttle open in fine pitch and then as rapidly closed it. In that split second we surged 90 degrees left and were at the grass at the left hand side, facing off the runway.

I think you will not do a torque stall in a Chipmunk or a Tiger Moth, but a big piston is something else again. If I had a Spitfire, I would not lend it out much. Nothing personal, you understand. I just would not want to risk my toy and someone else's broken neck. Especially my toy.

I have to tell you though, Beaver, if you have the money to do it, you are on the right track. There is nothing -- short of the other, of course -- like a curved approach (to see round the nose)in a heavy in-line single, in rain, straighten out at the last second, chop the throttle, Ah! the crackle from the stub exhausts, stick back, and touch down on three points. Outasight! Mind you, some do wheelers, but those are not for you nor me.

If you do get the money together and want someone to show you how, give me a call. It is only 43 years since I flew one, and I remember very well. Same thing with a bicycle.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Oaks/8553/firefly.gif


[This message has been edited by Davaar (edited 13 September 2000).]

[ockham hold]

Question:
At the present rate the world's fuel resources are being used up and the present rate of warbirds are being crashed at air shows which will run out first? Hopefully we'll be left with one Spitfire in the end.

[WebPilot]

Good advise from Davaar, the voice of experience! I recall reading somewhere that the BP Balliol (short lived 50s advanced trainer) which had a Merlin in the pointy end had a notorious torque stall effect that did for quite a few.

Someone mentioned Cubs - if you are in the South of England try Cubair at Redhill who fly, strangely enough, Cubs and will rent out at very reasonable rates to PPL after a swift check ride. And at least one is a *real* warbird - ex USAAF!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The nearest thing to a warbird at light plane prices has to be the Yak52. Big radial, handling far sharper than a Chippy, out flies a Harvard any day at a fraction the cost. It's not a taildragger and consequently is easier to handle on the ground than a Chippy - but in the air it's the biz!

[beaver eager]

Another good idea Shaggy, thanks.

Keep em coming folks...I'm building up to spending some money (dont tell the missus though).

[Rallye Driver]

I'd like to agree with Shaggy Sheep Driver about the Yak 52. I flew the Raspberry Ripple Yak 52 from Little Gransden yesterday afternoon - and I've still got a big grin on my face. £150 an hour wet, good availability and near to uncontrolled airspace so you can quickly pile on a few thousand feet to practice your aeros. If you're interested phone Skyline on 01767 651950 - they're very friendly and it really is a warbird you can afford to fly!

[Jamjar]

Gotta agree about Yaks - they are the biz.
If you get a chance to fly a Yak50 you'll love it - I did and it's probably as close to a true warbird as I'll ever get.
Incidently Beaver - where are you based?
I know of a nice Pitts S1 share in Gloucestershire.

[Davaar]

Thank you, WebPilot. Yes, the Balliol was another, and the Merlin was hot. My recollection (it was a long time ago) is that one of the vital actions for take-off was to lock the tail wheel to prevent it from castoring when the power came on.

I offer the thought that to classify aircraft, from the pilot's perspective, as "Warbirds" is to confuse purpose with aeronautics. A Firefly and a Vampire were both warbirds, but there the commonality ends. The flying techniques for the one were not for the other. It was much easier to land a Vampire (T.11 or FB.5) than a Firefly. I thought so, anyway. You could see where you were going, for one thing, and there was no "float" before the final stall for another.

When I see discussion about flying a warbird, and it includes this jet and that piston under the one rubric, I do reflect a little. Hot ships were hot ships back when they were being flown by the few, or even the many, and they are no less hot just because they are 60 years old. I was at a flying club recently for a bit of dual, and just in conversation it came out that the instructor had never heard of a torque stall. I could understand why. The aircraft they fly do not have a whole lot of power. Whatever, you do not want to learn about it on finals.

As a digression re the flying club I was, as we lawyers say, shocked and dismayed to learn that they do not teach the spin or spin recovery at all. Well! Well!

[beaver eager]

I am based in Herne Bay, near Canterbury. Nearest are Manston, Lydd, Headcorn (already been in contact with the Tiger Club today), and Rochester.

Gloucester is a bit of trek even for that much fun. Now, if anyone knows of something similar (cheap is good, though) going locally.....

------------------
Keep it up!

[beaver eager]

BTW folks,

I'm not expecting to jump into something mega overnight. It taught me a lot about being patient just trying to become a commercial pilot, so I'm prepared to build up gradually. After all, you can't magic up hours overnight (although it seems that some of the F/Os I fly with are a bit creative with their logbooks sometimes).

[WebPilot]

EagerB, no problem. It's an interesting thread. The only recompense for my advice is that if you ever get to fly Carolyn Grace's Spit T.IX, you offer me the back seat!

[neil armstrong]

If anybody is looking for a Twin Beech pilot , let me know .
I will fly it for free on the airshows.
:)
The smell of oil and 100LL ,it's been to long

Neil

[Spam Fritter]

Top thread B.E.
Please keep us all updated on how it goes.
I can vouch for the Cub as a good T/wheel;
but its not the hardest. You do have to do it "right" so good foundations are layed.

Best of luck I'd give my right nad to do the same-but my wife has had it already!

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
Have you thought of the guy in Florida who gives tuition in a P51,"Crazy Horse"? Perhaps the USA is the route for you.
All the best.
TDD

[Buzzoff]

There was a 2-seat P-51 Mustang at Kissimmee, Florida in which you could buy a ride, including low-level (very) and aerobatics. I don't know if it's still there (I was there a couple of weeks ago and didn't actually see it) but I recall a friend of mine paid about $1700 for a long session. Think the Boss would run to that?!!

[Buzzoff]

TwoDeadDogs and I must have been posting at the same moment! - That's the one I was talking about - Crazy Horse.

[Davaar]

Thank you enntwo. My wife says you should not encourage me. However.......then I see Buzzoff and the low flying P.51, so, while this may not really be strictly on point in the present context, it is vaguely on the topic of those who flew them "when they were current". I have a friend, older then I, who did almost all his flying in a Bf 109.

He came back to base one time to find the circuit unexpectedly busy, but OK, he found a space and eased in to the pattern. He was downwind No 3 or so to finals, burbling along, doing his checks, when he suddenly realised that the others were not other Bf 109s, but P.51s out looking for him. Good Golly Miss Mollie! Or maybe: Herrgott!

He dropped out of it to the deck and departed right speedily, pursued by his new chums who also had just realised what he was. Anyway, he made his escape. I'll mention to him that he can take a trip in a low flying P.51.

[beaver eager]

enntwo,

Thanks for the hint, I hadn’t missed Flying Lawyer’s post and although not at all surprised by the fact that nobody will let you fly one unless you have a good and well known pedigree, it was a bit of a discouraging read at that point in the thread. Obviously, I knew when I started the thread that the owners don’t just throw the keys at anyone, let alone someone with no experience on similar machinery, I was just trying to get some ideas on where to start and so far it’s going very well….

The current plan is thus,

I’ve no tailwheel time at all at the moment with aerobatics limited to a few self-taught loops in a C150 aerobat, and teaching spinning in the same whilst instructing (I know spinning’s only optional in the PPL syllabus nowadays, but I always encouraged my students to do a couple as a confidence building measure).

Whilst I figure that an expensive ride in a P51 or even straight into a Harvard would be an instant fix in respect of the fun factor, in the long run it’s not a good use of my limited resources (read – greenbacks) and would simply be frustrating.

A better plan would seem to be to start flying taildraggers initially getting a few hours on a Cub (‘coz their cheap) and moving onto a Tiger Moth (both available at Headcorn, which is close) which many of the British WW2 pilots learned to fly on anyway. Fitting in some tuition in aerobatics somewhere would be useful - maybe in a Chipmunk (Paul Bonhomme, who flew the P47 at Duxford on Sunday, once sat me in a Hurricane and told me it was just like a big Chipmunk!). By now, some time will have passed, and I hope to have negotiated a decent pay rise at work. Who knows, I may even have finished paying for the boss’s new en-suite and block paving driveway too! Anyway, I reckon that buying a share in a Yak or Pitts and developing my skills would be a good plan at this point, hopefully working towards a display licence whilst all the time meeting people and building up contacts.

I know it appears a bit far-fetched when reading the above, but I didn’t know anything about becoming an airline pilot when I started that either! It only took four years.

So keep the info flowing folks, and I’ll keep you informed…whilst buying lottery tickets!

Finally (a bit of self-doubt here), does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?

[Davaar]

Beaver. I hope I did not come over as negative. I never flew the Harvard and I regret that. Maybe still will. Apart from anything else it makes a great noise in fine pitch. So many people have trained in it for so long and gone on to so much that more praise is superfluous. They tell me it is a bit tricky, too, which is good. As Arnold Schwarzenegger says: "Go foah it!". And for the Spitfire.

[beaver eager]

Not at all davaar,

As I said, I know it's a big challenge but I believe that with patience and perseverance, I can rise to it.

I've enjoyed reading your posts and everyone else's...don't stop.

[This message has been edited by beaver eager (edited 14 September 2000).]

[Yosser]

beaver,

One important point made by Flying Lawyer (is the "F" silent? :)) is to get some aerobatic time.

Join the BAeA and enter a few contests, not only will you have fun, but you will be better placed for a subsequent application for a Display Authorisation.

Agree about the Yak 52, top fun, much nicer to fly than a T6, but not as relevant for piston "warbird" flying.

[Flying Lawyer]

Sorry my earlier post was discouraging but, sadly, it was the harsh truth.

Re: "Does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?"

Given your experience/qualifications, the short answer in your case is: Yes, but it would be an expensive way of doing it. IMHO, the best compromise (which worked for me!)would be:

Chipmunk - for tailwheel training, and experience of a military type which needs to be "flown." (ie Like all good trainers, it is not easy to fly well.)

Stearman - just a few hours to get used to a powerful radial producing significant torque. It will help when you move up to the Harvard. (See Davaar's comments on this topic.) There are few pilots who have never performed at least a partial ground-loop when converting onto a big piston. Just when you think you've got it hacked .....

Harvard - to put everything together in the tried and tested stepping-stone to more powerful warbirds.

I agree that the Yak 52 may, as has been suggested, give you more fun than the Harvard but, with respect, that is not the point. You have a specific goal in mind.

As a former member of the Tiger Club, I feel guilty saying this but, the Tiger Moth is of little or no value for your purposes. The Stampe would be better, and is a great ( and forgiving) aerobatic a/c but again, for your purposes, not as valuable as the other types I've mentioned.
I agree with EnnTwo's comments about the Cub - good easy flying, but of little benefit value except for cheap tailwheel experience if your budget is really tight.

Your instincts about a ride in a P51 are correct. A wonderful experience for any enthusiastic aviator - but it won't help your basic warbird training stage.
Later on, flying with an experienced display pilot will help you to learn how to display an aircraft. I spent many hours flying in the back of a P51 with Stefan Karwowski and then in a P51 and P40 (Kittyhawk) with Mark and Ray Hanna - even during displays. The CAA now prohibits passengers during displays, but positioning flights are sometimes combined with practice.

Good Luck.

http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/rainbar.gif

EDIT
Just seen Yosser's post above.
No, the 'F' is not silent , very good! :)
But, is that a typo I see - should the Y be a T?
http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/net2/smileyshot2.gif

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 14 September 2000).]

[Ex Bus Driver]

I retired from AAL in Apr 97, and in Nov 97 I gave myself the thrill of a life time: I bought an hour in Crazy Horse, one of two TF-51's at Kissimmee, Florida. The briefing was very thorough, as was the pre-flight check. I taxied out to the runway,(BTW, you unlock the tailwheel by pushing the stick forward), performed the engine run-up. The
instructor pilot made the take-off by advancing the throttle to 40" (3000 RPM) until the tail came off the ground, then advanced to 55"! As soon as the gear retracted he said, "You've got it".

I was amazed at how easy it was to fly. After we cleared the area I started by doing aileron rolls, stalls etc. Then the fun began. The Avon Park Bombing Range was "cold" that day, and we got permission to enter theis airspace. Starting at 10,000', I pushed the nos over to gain 250 kts. With cruise poewr set, 2300 RPM and 36", a steady 3G pull had me over the top at 70kts in a loop, pulling out at 250 kts again. It was then a series of barrel rolls, Cuban eights, and an Immelmann. He said, "Lets go down on the deck."
Starting a 220 kts, I did a Split-S and came out the bottom at 320 kts! Talk about acceleration! Buzzed the runway at 50' and 320! Back to home, where I made the landing!
As you may tell, it was truly the thrill of my lifetime, and though it cost me US$1850, it was worth every penny! I frequently relive the moment by watching the hour-long video of my adventure! EBD

[Skycop]

An ex squadron colleague of mine told me how he was chopped from pilot training in the Balliol. During a low night go-around the aircraft did an undemanded 360 roll on him as he opened the throttle a little too sharply. He lost his nerve after that.

He told me that others weren't lucky enough to get the full 360 roll and didn't recover before hitting the ground inverted.

[Davaar]

Yes. I was lucky to have big piston torque demonstrated to me in advance, and not be left to find out the hard way. The chap who gave me the heavy piston conversion was a Commissioned Pilot, RN, who had been shot down in a Seafire by an American bomber he was escorting back from a raid on Korea. He was an excellent pilot from whom I like to think I learned much....certainly he was most careful to show me what torque can do. He valued his skills highly and he was quite forceful that to the RN at the time, and for all I know still, being a pilot was not a "specialisation" but a "subspecialisation" of "executive branch", like say "navigator". He had heard someone dimiss the skill in those terms, and that person was later killed in pilot training. Yes, he said, some subspecialisation.

[beaver eager]

Ah ha…here it is! I wrote the following yesterday afternoon. However, Danny had moved the thread out of Rumours and News, but by mistake, he put it somewhere else initially and (to my dismay) I couldn’t find it.

Flying Lawyer

Strangely enough, after making my previous post this morning, I took a very nice motorcycle ride through the country lanes of Kent to visit the Tiger Club at Headcorn. What a co-incidence to get home and read that you used to be a member!

It seems like a nice little set up to me. Although they don’t have any of the Aircraft you mention as part of the Club, I did see both a Stearman and a Harvard in the same hanger where the club aircraft live, so you never know your luck.

What they do have however, is Cubs (which, not unreasonably, you have to start on if you’ve no tailwheel experience), Tiger Moths (including the oldest still flying), and a Stampe, to name but a few. I agree that, none of these are going to propel me magically in the cockpit of a WW2 fighter, but they’re local, reasonably cheap, and will in any case be loads of fun. As I said before, I expect to take a long time to reach my goal - ten years wouldn’t be a problem for me, as long as I’m having fun along the way. I could probably live with myself if I never ever flew a Cub (no disrespect intended Cub owners so keep the hate mail) but I reckon flying the Tiger Moth and the Stampe will gladden my heart for a while. At least they’re from a time (before mine, I might add ;)) when any type of flying was actually extremely glamorous. I know that I’ll be affected by that kind of feeling, as I still get all tingly when I watch any newsreel from the 30s, 40’s, 50’s or 60’s with aircraft in them. My own feeling is that things started to go downhill a bit in the 70’s when all the British manufacturers couldn’t keep up with the cost of development (I’d actually give Spam Fritter’s left nad for a go in a VC10). I wonder if I’ll ever feel like that about the 146? It’s probably the last all British airliner and I just take it for granted.

So, I’m going to join the Tiger Club and feeling pretty excited about it too. I won’t be doing that much at the beginning but at least I’ll be moving forwards again. Onwards and upwards as they say.

I asked whether flying the Harvard exclusively would be a good plan, and you said that it would be, however, as I’m not in a great hurry, and the budget’s limited at the moment, it’ll have to be plan B as above. I feel really good about the prospect of flying all the stuff the Tiger Club has to offer anyway.

PS. How do you do that shooting smilie? I’m impressed.

[enntwo]

Enjoyed the friendly banter between Flying Lawyer and Yosser.
I think it's 15:love to F/L at the moment. Difficult to beat a lawyer in a battle of words, Yosser!

F/L's reference to flying in the back of a P51 Mustang in displays with the late Stefan Karwowski brought back memories of watching a true natural pilot in action. One of the best display pilots I've ever seen.
I watched Stefan display a Bearcat at Biggin Hill in the 80's - just after it arrived in the UK. It remains the best display I've ever seen. He was in a different league from the rest of us. Not much to choose, if anything, between him and Ray Hanna.

F/L: Was Stefan killed flying a Pitts?
Our paths crossed occasionally, but we were never on the same Squadron at the same time. I think he went off to Oman after the RAF. I remember him as a really nice, unassuming guy whose outstanding talents were recognised even then.
A tragic loss, whatever the circumstances.

[This message has been edited by enntwo (edited 15 September 2000).]

[Flying Lawyer]

Beaver:
Glad to read that you found the Tiger Club. I haven't flown there for some years but, unless it's changed a lot (which I doubt) it's one of the best places to learn aeros. Members are always happy to help, and you get to fly with experienced aerobatic pilots.
I think the oldest Tiger Moth to which you refer is G-ACDC.
The Tiger is an important part of our aviation heritage, gives you a real sense of history, and takes skill to fly well. But, IMHO, it's not nearly as much fun to fly as the Stampe which is much more responsive, and is an excellent a/c in which to learn aeros. (I've got my tin hat on in readiness for the hate mail!) You'll enjoy the Tiger Club - good luck!

EnnTwo:
Stefan did go to Oman after the RAF, to join SOAF, and was the display pilot whilst there - I think (but I'm not sure) on the Jaguar. He was killed in a Pitts whilst visiting his fanily in New Zealand, not in a display. The Accident Investigation didn't really discover the cause of the crash. He had hundreds of hours in the Pitts, having been a Rothmans display pilot for quite a long time. It was one of those "No other cause found, so must be pilot error etc" reports. No-one who knew Stefan agreed!

I agree that the first Bearcat display at Biggin was outstanding - I was there with him. People on the display circuit talked about it for a long time afterwards.
You may be interested to know that it was the first time he'd EVER flown a Bearcat. He took off from Biggin, warmed up for 10 minutes, and then came in to perform an amazing display. A truly outstanding pilot who showed off the aircraft, not himself.

My introduction to Warbirds was a ride in the back of Stephen Grey's Mustang (Stef flying) - a mixture of formation/dogfighting with Ray Hanna in his Spitfire Mk IX, to open the airshow at West Malling one year. An experience I will never forget, and I was hooked! I joined Ray Hanna a few hears later when Stef was killed.
I agree that there was little to choose between the two as display pilots - it's difficult to judge between two superlatives. But,IMHO, Ray Hanna displaying the Spitfire remains unbeatable.


[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 15 September 2000).]

[AfricanSkies]

Thirty thousand quid buys you a Yak52 out of Bethlehem, SA. Superb machine, great fun.

[Pinger]

Generally it helps to be ex ETPS which seems fair enough, those guys are trained to cope with anything.

Otherwise get to some stupidly high rank (sorry, get some stupid *anker) in the RAF like an Air Vice Marshmallow and then you get to crash irreplaceable aircraft like the Gustav because you know all about flying because you once flew Hunters, or Lightnings, or Vulcans, or something equally as relevant.

GRRRRRRR!!!!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Davaar]

In all this recherche du temps perdu I do not see any mention of the Percival Provost T.1 with Alvis Leonides 550 H.P. engine, with CSU. The RAF must have had many of them. Are there none still around?

It was very aerobatic. Great fun to fly. RPM at 2,600 and boost at zero gave 120 kts. With those settings and by pulling the column back suddenly when the aircraft least expected it, one could do a 360 degree flick roll, and in fact carry on with them almost continuously. I believe this was streng verboten, but since my instructor had shown me how to do it I thought it venial rather than mortal and occasionally indulged the whim.

[enntwo]

Pinger:
(1) Only a very small percentage of warbird pilots are ex-ETPS.
(2) The two current warbird pilots who achieved "stupidly high rank" in the RAF (one retired last year) are invited to fly them because of their flying ability, NOT because of the rank they achieved. Both continued to fly fighters throughout their careers, even after achieving high rank, and both have flown warbirds on the display circuit for years.
Not everyone who achieves high rank is a *anker.
It seems from some of your other posts that you may be a little anti-RAF. Is there a history? (It doesn't bother me - I've been a civvy all my career.)
To borrow your phrase from a recent post - just curious!

[nugpot]

I fly (ir)regularly for the Harvard Club of South Africa. Here it is almost without exeption ex-mil pilots who fly the aircraft at airshows or for skytyping, but we do supply training on our aircraft if you have taildragger time and are prepared to pay. We will also take pax up for aero's or just a little look-see.

Current prices are around R1600 per hour for passengers and a bit more for instruction (that's about 160 UK pounds).

We have aircraft based near Johannesburg and near Cape Town and I have taken quite a few BA and Lufthansa crew and other tourists for aero's out of Stellenbosch (Cape Town).

Please email me if you are interested and I will try and arrange things for you.

We have 9 AT6/Harvard II/III aircraft and have to utilise them to keep them going. In Cape Town you can also get flights in a Lightning, Buccaneer, Strikemaster or Hunter from ThunderJets. Not cheap though.

I agree with the other posts. If you are not ex-mil, try and get lots of taildragger time and work your way up to higher performance aircraft. The problem with these warbirds is that they are irreplaceable and if you do not have a well known track record, no-one will let you in the cockpit.

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It is much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[foxmoth]

Good luck in your quest - I to would love to fly some of these machines, and have for some time now been flying a wide variety of vintage taildraggers, but only up to light a/c size with a little Harvard time a few years ago - I even KNOW someone with a Spit, but even offering to cut of my right arm (but only after I had flown it) did not get me the flight. Its that old aviation addage - you can't fly it unless you have flown it before.

[mach78]

How did that chap De Cadanet manage it then,with as far as I know, only a modest GA background?
Remember a few years back on some Channel 4 program he flew one,as he pointed out on Sunday at the Biggin Hill BBC tribute to the Battle Of Britain, -where, worringly, he threatened to do it again-but it seemed to come to nothing-at least I never saw him.

[WebPilot]

Mach78 - AdeC had one big advantage - loadsa money!

[skua]

Ade C owned or owns a Spitfire. he also raced at Le Mans in the Eighties, so he must have a degree of ability with high speed machines........

[Waldo Pepper]

Although aerobatic experience is a prerequisite for display flying, I think that some kind of formal formation flying training is equally important. Thats where the ex-military pilots have the edge on the civvies.I've been following the path described by eager beaver for a few years now, and am now a reasonably competent tailwheel and aerobatic pilot, with a quarter share in a Christen Eagle II. However, whilst I'm quite happy to fly fairly close to other aircraft, I think I would really benefit from some good instruction. Anyone know of a place I can find it? BTW I flew one of the SA Harvards and can thoroughly recommend it...affordable(compared to the UK) and exciting flying at a lovely airfield in the wine region of Capetown. If you're at Stellenbosch, look up some of the Smirnoff pilots. I did a couple of hours of advanced spin training in an S2B, and learnt quite a bit.

[Southern Cross]

Waldo Pepper

One of the best opportunities for a civilian pilot to get military - run formation flying training is at the Formation Flying weeks held at North Weald twice a year in Yak 52's. Each course is run by a RAF Squadron Leader with current and past RAF pilots and top civilian pilots as instructors. Each aircraft has an instructor in the back seat for each flight. Guaranteed to be some of the best flying you have ever done. You fly 3 / 4 sorties a day and for a novice particularly, it is very hard work especially for the first few days.

I would recommend getting time in a Yak 52 before signing on for the course.

The quality of instruction is unparalleled and apart from "basic" formation flying, you can move onto formation aeros, tailchasing, combat etc....

Oh, and you need your own Yak 52...unless you have a friend who will lend you one.

Compton Abbas also hold formation flying courses - several weekends throughout the summer thought the Yak Club. :)

[nugpot]

Waldo Pepper.

Glad to hear we have at least one happy customer.

If you are in Cape Town during November to March, we normally have 5 a/c at Stellenbosch and we can take pax for formo sorties. I don't know whether our resident instructors will let the pax pole in close formo, but we will give you some pointers and show the formation positions and references. We also have an annual airshow at the end of March and you can see the Lightning, Buccaneer, Strikemaster, Hunter and various aerobatic teams in action. On the second day (Sunday), flips are available in the Pitts and Harvards and most pax opt for some formation flying in the Harvards or formo aeros in the Smirnoff Pitts.


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It is much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[This message has been edited by nugpot (edited 19 September 2000).]

[Noisy Hooligan]

Have you considered flying vintage jets?
They are a lot cheaper to fly than big old pistons...
I know of a Jet Provost syndicate that has some shares available.

[Ivchenko]

Noisy Hooligan

Hate to detract from your advert - sorry, posting - but classic warbird flying is about handling torque, limited vision, tailwheel landings, large dollops of power on tap and the handling characteristics of aircraft designed when human life was regarded as cheaper than it is now.

Nothing in common with a JP there then.

And anybody buying a JP with a view to displaying it would be joining the back of a long, long queue.