With experience, is Ryanair really that bad?

[david.craig]

I've read with horror the conditions faced by Ryanair new-starts, particularly the pay-less months and refusal to award leave, but most importantly the cost of the initial 6 months.
However, looking at the other end of the spectrum, once command is achieved, and thousands of hours with the company logged, is it really that bad?
Granted its a rough road to that position, but the pay at that level seems very fair and obviously, no overnights. At least compared to short-haul skippers on other lines, does the initial struggle pay off?

[rubik101]

the simple answers are; No and Yes!
But with lots of caveats which I am sure you are familiar with if you have read all the Ryanair threads posted here.

[hemel]

Is it really that bad? yes it is. The job with RYR for me was most disappointing, and I joined with 7000 hrs and type rated.

The management in Dublin have taken all of the enjoyment out of the job and insist on a set of standard operating procedures that does not let you see the "wood for the trees". The secondary airports they operate into will eventually result in a serious incident/accident.

Flying for me needs to be enjoyable, with Ryanair I do not remember enjoying one single duty. Yes the cash was good but you earn it in this awful airline and having to work for such an arrogant CEO then this "ASDA/ALDI" of airlines was not for me!

Before Ryanair I had a fond romantic view of the Irish (River Dance,Guiness,Dublin) after meeting this bunch my views are much changed!

Do yourself a BIG favour and give this bunch a miss!!
Now I work for a Large Biz jet operator where the flying is challenging and you are both respected and rewarded.

Life is to short to work for the dreadful Ryanair - as simple as that!

HEMEL

[captplaystation]

As usual, the truth lies somewhere between these two totally disparate views.
So the answer to your 2 Q is . . . . . . . MAYBE.

In all honesty, it depends a lot on what you were used to, what your expectations are, whether you can be lucky and keep your head below the parapet, and very very importantly where you are based and where that figures in relation to where you want to be based.
If you value being home every night, you are based where you want, you are fairly thick skinned, and you don't upset someone in authority, it is actually OK.
Aircraft are all new (some very) maintenance is good, crew (even if some lack experience) are professional with very good SOP's.
On the other hand there is certainly no feel-good touchy feely stuff, and many people you have to deal with both within the company (and indeed some of our loyal :hmm: customers )are pretty abrasive, but then they are nurtured that way from the moment they walk into the office /airport.
If you don't mind having a spade redefined as an :mad: shovel and you are realistic in what you expect, having done your homework here, you should have no problem with what you find.

[seasexsun]

Is it really that bad? yes it is. The job with RYR for me was most disappointing, and I joined with 7000 hrs and type rated.


that is why ryanair now only hire cadets because since they know nothing else, they think it is very good...and also because they accept every kind of ****, which is not the case of people experienced like you.


you are based where you want,


not exactly... you are based where THEY want, if it is the same wish, then fine, otherwise, be prepare to live north of europe when you want to live south...

[the grim repa]

One would want to be absolutely insane even applying to this company that charges you £50 to apply and then proceed to rob you blind once an employee.Do yourself a favour,in the words of craig david "I'm walking away"...

[strawberriesfield]

david craig / craig david . . . grim, you are wasted in this profession. :D

[Reluctant737]

david craig / craig david . . . grim, you are wasted in this profession.

Hmm, wouldn't give the guy too much credit - professionals leave their minds open to all channels, and I think most people could categorically agree that he does not!

Anyway, real reason I posted - thank you so much for choosing the username 'strawberriesfield'. Always, without exception, makes me smile, and more often than not laugh as well :ok:

[zerotohero]

Still on the RTC so can only give a look at the 24months in period.

Money is good-ish, if I was an 21 year old with zero debts and parents had paid my way through all my training I would be thinking this is awesome, work maybe 10days a month max, pay my £500 a month type rating loan and take home £2500ish after tax to blow on the 18-22year old trolly dollys getting them into bed and buying a new 318i

as early 30's man with house and training debts for next 3years as well as type rating the money left is same as a crap job in a call centre, but lifestlye is miles better as is the job, so I guess thats a plus as prospects after 3years are much much better than dixons call centre!

you are a number and an expendable number, dont do your job right and I dont see a slap on the wrist, I see out the door and no thanks for your hard work and effort.

getting the right base makes life at home nice, get the wrong base and your not really living your life how you want, jumpseating home every week, spending half your time on standby not earning in the place you dont want to be,,, some months are good, only 1 standby in 5 days, some are 3 in 5 days, this time of year seems to be the latter, not sure if thats seasonal or because they continue to bring in new cadets? again I suspect the latter!.

going in the sim on a brookfield means paying for hotels out your own pocket, get stuck down route due tech or duty time or what ever means minimal rest in the nearest or cheapest hotel they can find and if theres no restaurant open,, tough!, get a taxi at your own cost because your now off duty! and its not there responcability, its like been off duty back at base! yea apart from your car is in the carpark and your house/accomidation is already lined up to cater for been there.

aircraft are new and safe, if something goes wrong then the SOP's are very good and follow the numbers should see you back safe on the ground again to tell the tail, not sure you would be paid though as your paid sector block hours and if you come back you did not compleate the sector! lol,, i may be wrong but again I recon not.

Its a very organised company and things do run smooth, rosta is stable 5/4 and pretty much set in stone, shame the 5 on are not 5 on though! but at 85Euros an hour the 45euro line trainer is cheaper than me.

ticket to getting the good money would seem to be make command, then LTC then train on nearly every flight and work the 900hours a year, sit in the right seat after a few hours and your never going to buy that new 911!

its not my first flying job, but its my first in a Jet carrier, and I am mixed about it all, I would probably leave for elsewhere given the choice, but no where is hireing really, those that are have probably 100+ applicants for 1 job, and are they going to still be there in 12months? thankfully I do work outside of Ryanair that earns me good money and losing my flying job would not harm me finantialy, but I do want to continue flying and get a command and dont see it worth rocking the boat in the current climate.

hope that answers a few questions.

[Reluctant737]

Whatever,

I earn enough to pay off my debts, rent an apartment (with a shared jacuzzi which noone else ever uses!), live and do the things I want to on the side.

And I'd rather walk away with half the net profit if it meant driving to the airport at stupid o' clock instead of a mundane call centre at 0800 on a rainy Monday morning...

Just my thoughts,

ta, ad

p.s. good post zerotohero, very well balanced. I'm 20, but unfortunately it's a shade dry of 'awesome' because I DO have stuff to pay off! Still great though. People moan about how it's no fun flying at Ryanair, well come on, take a reality check, you're paid to work, not have fun. And it's not that difficult to combine the two, we do all the time!

[south coast]

Of course no one is going to use a 'shared' jacuzzi...no one knows who's 'harry monk' was floating around in it the night before!

[Flintstone]

SC

Are you suggesting that Reluctant737 is a self pleasurer?

[south coast]

I am not suggesting anything my learned friend, I wanted to make the point that such shannanigans could well go on in a jacuzzi, Champagne, cigar, cowboy hat, young lady....'arry monk!

[Reluctant737]

Neither of yer are far off the mark! :p

Well fortunately my 'neighbours' are the elderly and the shy respectively, but then again, people falling into those catagories can be VERY surprising ;)

[The Beer Hunter]

So that's six replies in the negative, one neutral and one yes man.

The 'nays' have it! :}

[Reluctant737]

I wonder if there's some inverse correlation going on here, when compared to age... then again I've flown with Captains thrice my age who come out with some shockers! Come on guys, let's get these discussions going on the flight deck - I can't believe there are so many people relatively unhappy flying for FR, 99% of guys and girls I fly with love the job, albeit far from perfect.

It's all good fun at the end of the day, and you've gotta laugh.

Ha ha

[south coast]

What discussions is it you are referring to that you would like to get going on the flight deck? You lost me with your last post?

[Reluctant737]

Hi South Coast,

Well, to me it seems there are a lot of hard feelings towards my airline's practices on this website, including employees of FR whom I probably fly with without realising it. That is a stark contrast to what I hear 'in the office', when the conversation takes on many levels - discussions about EASA, about our invidivual lives, how we got into flying, what mountains are over there are their specific microclimates, old stories of holidays and experiences we had where we're flying, stuff like that. But hardly ever any hard words against the company.

Is it perhaps because up there in the aeroplane on the small stretch across the Bay of Biscay, life is sunny and near perfect? And when we get home, we begin to realise what (or rather who) we're working for and it's not so great after all? Or are we simply scared that somehow, the CVR is being watched and any words 'out of line' will result in... 'action'?

Sometimes I don't understand it. It almost seems that there are two different worlds of pilots; the real pilots, and the PPRuNe pilots.

Thanks

[captplaystation]

I know where you are coming from, there are some on here I can scarcely imagine dragging themselves out of bed at 0400 for an early, never mind doing it 5 days in a row for 4 sectors.
At the end of the day our esteemed leader wants to shaft us & pay us less,and this will continue until the collective awareness of the situation finally seeps into the grey matter & provokes a concerted unified response. God knows what it will take for that to happen, paying to go to the bog along with the punters ? (Oh & bring your own bog roll along with your water & sarnies :hmm: ) yep that might do it :D .
Fortunately, from the brakes off to chocks on, most seem to be able to remember why they chose this profession, it is that & that alone , that makes the "daily grind" quite pleasurable in most cases.
(Oh BTW no correlation between "daily grind" & Reluctant's Jacuzzi should be inferred :rolleyes: )

[Reluctant737]

Here's something else I'd like to use to level the playing field somewhat -

The very last job I had prior to starting at Oxford was working in a service station on the M1. It was full time, and after tax I took about £700 a month, at least £300 of which I spent each month on taking my friends and family flying in a 172. It was an expensive aeroplane to hire, but it was worth it - very well maintained and the reassurance of a G1000 and fully instrument equipped 'just in case'. And I'm sure all of us know that 'feeling' when we take close family flying that says 'what if'? Anyway, so I had circa £400 each month, of which I managed to stash away £300 towards living expenses while training. The rest went on fuel for the motor and perhaps a few pub visits. And I paid (a lot) to fly an aeroplane which just about made 120 kts.

Contrast that to now - my net each month averages somewhere around the £3,000 mark (down a bit these days, but never mind that), and that will increase as the years go by. I receive that money in exchange for operating a flying machine capable of 470 kts at 37,000 feet very comfortably. I work in a clean, professional environment with professional (and friendly) people. I have a stable roster, and each month have a set of 'definite' days off. I am comfortable financially, and can easily afford what I owe and have a little hobby paragliding from Dunstable on the side.

Unfortunately I no longer fly light aeroplanes due to hours limitations and the fact that you have to fly reguarly to remain proficient in the eyes of most flying clubs. But I love GA, so no doubt some day I will be able to afford a half share or something in a nice little tourer (perhaps a Mooney?) to buzz about in at the weekends. I would do that for the joy, and the hours needn't be logged if that will break duty time. I am very able to plan my sleep cycles and know when I am safe to fly.

Life is exactly what you make it, and it's all relative. Perhaps if you'd flown for BA for ten years and came over to our little civilisation you might not like it very much, but for someone like myself, this is my first 'career' job, and I may end up staying here, who knows. You can spend all your time moaning about what you don't have, but I rather leave the news people to it and get on with enjoying my life. It's an amazing gift, and fundamentally, flight is a wonderful thing that we are fortunate enough to get paid for harnessing. Comapred to some employers, we may feel like we're on tenderhooks when flying, but so what? I'm all for strict SOPs, it's a serious business this and they help to keep complacency at bay, something I saw in people quite often in GA.

But hey, no two opinions are alike and we all view different things in different ways.

That's just my take on what I do :)

[Gnirren]

and that will increase as the years go by

Are you quite certain? ;)

[Reluctant737]

It's more of a hope than a certainty I suppose, given the way things are going (some would say I contributed to).

To be honest, what I want out of flying is a career that lets me remain reasonably stable and to know where I stand. And when the time comes, to allow me to start a family and settle down a bit.

Mind you, going by past experiences I'll be lucky if I have a family aged 50! Can't even hold down a relationship longer than two years, me!

[south coast]

Your views definately have the 'ring' of your first 'career' job that you mention and that is normal.

But, at some point you have to stop thinking how lucky you are to be paid to do a job which you consider a hobby and a pleasure, because it is/was that very attitude that has allowed accountants to lower the industry's general T&C's.

They know how much you love your job and therefore they think they can slowly errode away at your benefits/perks/salary to either increase the profit or to reduce costs to perhaps meet targets and secure bonuses.

Either way, you are doing a job for which you should be awarded a salary and an overall package that reflects the level/cost we incur in training and the level of responsibility placed on you while doing your job.

I dont work for FR, but I do think it is a bit cheap not to allow the crew to drink coffee/bottled water/coke for free while on duty, you cant just pop out to the vending machine, and because its your job that puts you in that environment, they should keep you hydrated and comfortable.

So, when companies start making their employees pay for a coke, pay to charge their mobile, pay to use the toilet, you have to question the respect the company is showing towards you.

Do you blindly show respect and loyalty towards someone/thing who doesnt reciprocate those qualities towards you?

I think with age and experience your opinions may well change.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying we should all constantly moan and be negative, but fair is fair...and if an employer is being fair then there is no reason to complain, but when they are not....then people will complain about the slightest of issues.

[AlpineSkier]

Regrettably off thread here however ..

.. how do airlines react when they see answers (presumably in their many written questionaires) from someone like zth whose literacy is way down the scale ( for an educated professional ) ?

Do they think that because he is 95% literate it's ok because he can probably understand nearly everything that is written ( even if he can't spell it) or accept it because that's as good as it gets these days ?

I pose this qustion as a linguist and with respect to your profession where the necessity of adhering to recognised standards is paramount and ( presumably ) corner -cutting and sloppiness is not permitted.

Regards

AS

[Reluctant737]

South Coast,

I appreciate your comments - indeed, no doubt with time will come change, and I'm sure I'm not the first example of your very eager FO, and I'm sure I shan't be the last. But I do understand this company somewhat, and I think long gone are the days where you 'yes sir' or 'thank you ma'am' everyone you meet in an effort to please. Don't get me wrong, I'll always go out of my way to help my colleagues do their job because they are the people I am working with, so of course I'm going to do my best for them. But I realise what our company cotton on to, and I realise the part I played in the eroding of our working lives by paying for my type rating and almost feel obliged to do nothing more to satisfy it. Unfortunately I find there is a very fine line to cut when crewing ask you to work a day off (it's been happening more recently for some reason), sometimes I say yes if I genuinely feel up for it, but if I can't do it then I can't do it, and I make that clear. I see some people in my position literally bending over backwards and sometimes I feel like giving then a slap!
I'm all for a unity between pilots/cabin crew, but it is difficult within FR due to the vastness of the airline in terms of bases and the sheer volume of staff distributed around them.
I can't imagine anybody not wanting things to improve, but of course you can think of it like a thunderstorm - it requires a 'trigger'. I personally believe that it is in human nature (as persons and as people) to allow oneself to be pushed around to a point, but when considering people as thousands of persons, there comes that point when there is a silent agreement between all that something needs to be done.
In a way, this has led to a complacency on my part that, ok, things are certainly not improving, but surely there will come a point when we'll all say at once,

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

I'm not a businessman, I understand the fundamentals, but how would one go about such a transformation?

I'm sure Flintstone will jump in and tell everyone not to buy type ratings, and of course he is right. If nobody bought their own ratings, as supply began diminishing the airline would be forced to explore alternatives. But my qualm with this, is I don't believe it's practical to organise thousands of people into such a line of action, especially when you couple that to the fact that every one of these thousands has ambitions higher than Mt Everest!

I guess the real question is, what can we do from the inside in a company that doesn't recognise trade unions?

Thanks

[Reluctant737]

I've never worked in a service station on the M1.....I wouldn't reccommend it, although I hear the establishments on the M6 are better!

And I agree with what you're saying, like I said that is purely my story based on my (limited) experience thus far :ok:

[Reluctant737]

13thstage,

To tell the truth, I'd rather kill two birds with one stone and have both (I imagine anyone would). I think somebody with experience in this profession, a veteran as you accurately put it, deserves that. Some of the people I fly with certainly do and are undervalued without a doubt.

Thanks

[zerotohero]

AlpineSkier

Yes I cant spell for sh*t and I know this only too well, it however has not held me back in my life unless I choose to be an english teacher! I have always exceded at everything I do because I am willing to work hard, spelling however my brain just cant grasp for some reason, belive me I have tried.

thankfully in this proffesion when the wings are on fire and your decending at 8000fpm udside down ATC dont expect you to spell MAY DAY! to them! they pretty much have an idea whats going on.

thanks for the put down though, always makes me feel all warm inside.

[Stan Woolley]

I have significant experience as a pilot with other airlines.

They are basically all the same.

I prefer Ryanair to nearly all of them because ......

a)They don't pretend to be anything they are not.

b)For me they tick the important boxes which is why most people stay with them............ROSTERS and Money.

c)The aeroplanes are very well maintained and generally new.

d)The training is taken seriously and lots of effort goes into it.

e)Tell me what's better and at least as secure?

f)I'm a glutton for punishment. :8 :E

[AlpineSkier]

@ zth

Thanks for the quick reply, however I really would be interested to know if you have have ever had any feedback from your employer about poor literacy.

In a profession like yours where everything is so regulated and there are mandatory checklists etc and very swift comprehension is everything, I would be puzzled if there is no reaction.

As far as thanking me for the put-down, no problem . Annual subscriptions available at very reasonable rates :)

[g1344304]

are you for real alpine skier? This is an internet forum, not a thesis

[eagerbeaver1]

Reluctant737 - Your enthusiasm is nice - but Ryanair is a tough place to work. Forget the "machine capable of stuff..." and think very hard about what your job entails.

You do have the words of a newbie (I am not trying to discredit you) and I think you offer a view which is biased.

[TheGlide]

Lads Im working as an Instructor at the moment barely surviving on about 600e a month working 7days a week mostly twelve hours a day ...

Luckily enough i have a job coming up with Ryanair and hopefully il eventually get a day off and more than a 1000euro a month ...

Some people dont realise how lucky they are .If you dont like it you know what to do .

[Busbar]

Alpine Skier,

You made your point but you are a distraction to the thread. Kindly post elsewhere, this is a thread about working for Ryanair, not about Spelling & Grammar. :ugh:

I am an ex Ryanair man myself. I enjoyed my time working there. Why? Because it was my first job, I was young, I enjoyed working with some great people, the roster was good, the money was good and I had a good base.

Why did I leave? Because I realised that I wanted to do different things in my career. I still have 38 years left of flying! I guess I was curious to see what other operators and aircraft were like. I joined a UK airline on the Airbus and really enjoy it. Do I miss leaving Ryanair? No, but I do think their rostering system is one of the best (if your not on a floating base contract). Your home every night and I was based where I wanted to be so I was happy. There will always be pros and cons everywhere you go to. I do not agree with some of Ryanair's practices, but their SOP's and Training is some of the best I have seen.

There is a lot of information on this website about them, I think you have enough here to make your own mind up. I also think Reluctant737's posts are very balanced and very true.

Good Luck :ok:

[eagerbeaver1]

TheGlide - You are welcome to my job, 2500 pounds a month is all I will charge.

You think we have not all been where you are?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Very interesting stuff. I am an easyJet pilot, but follow Ryanair closely. I think there are some very honest posts here. Reluctant737 is probably who Ryanair was built for - young, keen, capable, hard-working and never worked for another airline. TheGlide reminds me so much of my own view at his stage of my flying career - incredulous someone was about to pay me anything at all for flying a fancy new jet and just desperate to do the job. I too would gladly have told all whiners to shove off - it is only as the years progressed that I became more discerning. Sadly, my lack of airline experience tainted my views, and in retrospect I was completely wrong. I spent many years in the RAF and easyJet is now the 5th airline I have worked for - my perspective is now very different. I probably most identify with eagerbeaver1 - I wistfully reflect on my own naivety when I started out.

My genuine hope for Ryanair is that enough people wake up to the harsh reality of what they are dealing with and seek union representation to change the face of their potentially excellent company. Best of luck.

[davidathomas42]

I enjoy working for FR, beats digging holes by the side of the road, not that there is anything wrong with that mind you

[adwjenk]

Hi,

Ryanair is as you take it, I personally love it but it is my first airline job so I still am wearing the rose colored glasses.
The a/c are very well maintained and lovely to fly, I fly with great people only come across the odd funny one but every airline/base has them. I have been given the base I wanted, I was one of the lucky ones on that account though! The base I fly from is very sociable and everyone is highly professional.
All in all for a first job its great especially being on the younger side of life so I am lucky just have my training loans to pay off, which is possible with the Brookfield salary. The rest is for me to use to enjoy life and save and live.

I am Brookfield so I have no idea what T&C's are, I fly and get paid, if I go tech down route I get no pay for the split duty time where I sit in a hotel, but on the plus side I have been lucky when this happened Ryanair did fax a credit card through and it all went on that, the hotel and food so they do look after you if you get stuck some where (from my experience this is, I have heard of Captains who paid it all and it took them over 6 months to get the money back).
The money is good but I would be happier earning less and having allowances, basic pay and paid leave. I hate sitting working out my hours to see if I can live over this month.

My colleges on Ryanair contracts have slowly over the years seen the pay decrease and the terms and conditions slowly disappear, so from there view things have been gradually going down hill.

If you want good money, home every night and a very stable roster (you can go through your diary counting 5/4 for the entire year and that's what you can expect) then Ryanair is for you, as long as you do not mind bringing your own food or drink. Personally I like it keeps the waist line under control. Its more of a family man lifestyle.

My only concerns at the moment are the 300 cadets and 100 planes we are getting, I say this because I have no idea where they will go, especially when we are cutting back at certain bases and moving crews and planes else where due to the economic situation. This winter for line F/O will be VERY VERY slow since all the cadets who are on the cheaper rates will be flying just hope summer is good so I can save and batten down the hatches. These new cadets are all still waiting for there new contracts as they are being 'edited' as one cadet has been told, it will be very interesting to see what they are offered.
I have a feeling Ryanair will just get to big for itself, like a star and when a star gets to big it implodes!
MOL has been a clever guy but I think his greed how now turned on him, with new planes arriving and no where for them to go.

But on the whole if things were really this bad would all the current and experienced Captains and F/O's still be here.

All the best

ADWJENK

[BelArgUSA]

Sadly, RyanAir might be the dream to get a "jet pilot job" to many pilots who did not qualify to be hired by a reputable "legacy" air carrier, but unfortunately, the dream quickly becomes a nightmare to many.
xxx
Obviously, you want to be a pilot, and prefer to be with RyanAir, than doing house plumbing repairs, or unloading a van of food and groceries at your nearest supermarket. As far as I am concerned, go ahead, and fly for your buddy O'Leary, and keep on sending your C.V. for a decent position anywhere else, with the flight experience you acquire.
xxx
The model for O'Leary's operation was Southwest Airlines, in the USA, which quickly acquired a good reputation with the travel public, and the flight crews of Southwest are rather well paid pilots, with decent work conditions with a dynamic airline. They do not take theirselves too seriously, laugh at their own "peanuts and coke" catering, and their staff have smiles at airports and during flight. And, despite the economic conditions, they make money, despite their low fares. Nothing at RyanAir resembles Southwest. Just the original idea...
xxx
So, enjoy building time with RyanAir, and bail-out ASAP for a better job when offered one. That is all you need from O'Leary, "flight time and experience". And one day, you will say "yeah, I was a RyanAir boy, ha ha ha"...! Consider O'Leary's operation your purgatory, before the paradise... As a retired pilot, many people ask me "which airline" in Europe, I recommend "any airline" but RyanAir... even railroads are better.
xxx
:*
Happy contrails

[aerobat]

I would not want to be a First Officer at Ryanair but as a Stansted based Captain the job takes a lot of beating.
We get well paid, a fixed five on four off roster and home every night.
The cadets coming through are very well trained and a pleasure to fly with.
Obviously the job is not so good if you are not based at home and have to commute but with our expansion everybody gets their base of choice eventually.
Even commuting is easy because we can just jumpseat without a ticket providing we are in uniform.
Downside is trying to get leave when you want it but the day to day job is good.
Most of the negative replies on here are by people that don't work for Ryanair and probably failed the selection because we do have many applications for every job with consequential high failure rate.

[eagerbeaver1]

Aerobat - Did you vote yes the other day?

[The Beer Hunter]

Reluctant 737: I no longer fly light aeroplanes due to hours limitations

Would someone explain this to me? Since when do your flight and duty times affect private flying?

[nick14]

Under the IAA rules:

all types of flying counts towards your 900/yer limit.

It would be embarrasing to turn round to ops and say I cnt fly because iv burned up my 900 hours with additional light aircraft flying. A boot out the door would surely follow.

Under CAA anything under 1600kg is not counted, but as we have IAA licences its different rules.....:sad:

[JW411]

I think Stan Woolley just about hit the nail on the head when he made the comment that airlines are all the same.

We would all love to work for that perfect airline that doesn't exist. I personally have a wardrobe full of uniforms from airlines that went under.

I absolutely loved working for Fred Laker and thought he was a pretty good boss. What happened? Another uniform in the wardrobe!

I watched what happened to PanAm, Tigers and TWA while I was working in the States. No doubt those who got to put their uniforms in the wardrobe then, at one time thought they had arrived when they were working for those wonderful airlines (any comment BelArgUSA?)

After another uniform ended up in my wardrobe, I decided that I had to work for a predator for a change and stop worrying about staff travel and such niceties that don't really matter when it comes down to it. Luckily, this was a good change of tack and my next job lasted for 19 years until I retired.

During that time I watched the likes of SABENA and Swissair go down the toilet (whilst still going on strike for this and that).

We all know that MOL is an ars*hole and that he is not the sort of person that you would invite home to meet mummy. However, he is a pretty successful predator and has so far kept a lot of pilots in reasonably well-paid work with stable rosters. I can imagine that the Ryanair management is not too good in the "touchy-feely" and "let's be nice to each other" department but I have proved in the course of my long career that flying for nice people can be positively damaging to your health!

Would you rather work for the likes of SilverJet, Zoom or XL perhaps? I'm sure they were all great fun but great fun does not impress the bank manager (nor, for that matter, do nice "thank you letters" from the MD for a job well done).

[aerobat]

eagerbeaver

Yes I did because the alternative would be an even deeper shafting ! millions of other workers are also foregoing a pay rise this year.
I would prefer everyone to belong to BALPA and have a proper negotiation but can't see it happening soon.

[Stan Woolley]

As a retired pilot, many people ask me "which airline" in Europe, I recommend "any airline" but RyanAir...

Seriously BelArg how much do you know about Ryanair? Are pilots sent here by the courts to serve a sentence? Do the cadets join up at gunpoint? If not then do you think we are all morons with no choices?

If it's so GodAwful how do they manage to attract experienced pilots who should know better?

Why were pilots not flying out the door when there were loads of jobs around in the past few years?

Aerobat

Seriously mate we are wasting our time. It appears that if you defend Ryanair in any way you must be some sort of idiot/masochist/loser/............whatever.

I don't like deals being imposed either but I never get an answer from all the so called experts about where they can get a better deal, or why they are still here gobbing off year after year but don't have the balls to actually try somewhere else. Hypocrisy!

[Stan Woolley]

JW411
I'm sure they were all great fun but great fun does not impress the bank manager (nor, for that matter, do nice "thank you letters" from the MD for a job well done).

I'm sure many will say I am lying but I have seen a nice letter from MOL to one of our pilots thanking him for flying him around on a trip.(A line FO btw, not a base Captain or such)

If I get sacked soon you know why! Can't let it be known MOL might be human! :ok:

[Buster-go-nad]

Mine was joining RYR (and meeting my 1st wife). Excluding crew (flight and cabin) you will generally deal with the most ruthless, obnoxious, double dealing b**stards on the planet. Your throat will be cut for tuppence, all on the caveat of costs and share options.

Filth....

[JW411]

Stan Woolley:

Funnily enough, that doesn't surprise me. The fact still remains that the thank you letter wouldn't have impressed the bank manager!

[Phantasm]

Apparently because its better to be ill treated by 'a predator' than risk being made redundant from a job you might enjoy....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

It is if it puts food on the table and pays the bills.

[JW411]

ASFKAP:

I worked for a predator for sure but I was never ever ill-treated.

I think you may have jumped to some ill-considered conclusions.

My predator was not MOL. I am now retired and never worked for Ryanair but,in this climate, I would rather work for them than stack shelves in Tescos.

[RED WINGS]

This thread confirms my opinions :}

It seems that if you rock the boat your sacked, wonder what the response to an "unecessary" tech log entry down route is? What concerns me is the comments of supposed ryanair pilots! Reluctant 737 comments when he has more money he would do some light aircraft flying for fun and not log it if it conflicts with duty hours! It is that regard for legal regulations, CRM and safety which is why I have never had any wish to fly ryanair even in the back!

[Callsign Kilo]

I have just sailed past the 500hr mark on the 738 with FR. It's my first commercial job and overall I am happy. I knew what I was getting myself into before I joined and to be honest there is very little that I could regard as being a complete and utter surprise to me.

I have had 3 bases (2 during line training) and my present. It's not where I want to be ultimately, however it isn't the worst as I am able to stay with relatives/friends during my 5 days on. My life would be a lot more simple if I had my base of choice however I know guys who are a lot worse off (in terms of how they have to commute to work, cost of living away from home etc). I was in line for a base transfer in February, however it never materialised (for reasons unknown to me). When you seek a reason, no one can give you one or the person you need to talk to is unavailable. Important lesson is not to let it get to you. You will see people in the base that you want who themselves do not want to be there. You will see new cadets being moved into your base of choice when you had been told a month or two earlier that the base was overcrewed and would be for the next 6 to 8 months. However these stories aren't anything new and like I say, I was aware of them before I joined.

The money is decent, however if joining as an FO be aware that as you become more expensive (see Brookfield rates of pay) you are likely to be used less. I am late twenties, married with a kid, two properties (one let out), a car, credit cards etc etc. I have, by industry standards, a small loan to repay as a result of my training. I am still managing to keep my head above the water and I am able to enjoy some of the finer things in life, however it takes careful management and planning of your finances. I would also point out that if you are based in Ireland things are becoming slightly different to how you declare your income. This applies to Brookfield guys and gals and indeed the whole concept of being 'self employed' with regards to the Revenue Commission. Ultimately you could find yourself worse off.

Flying wise, I couldn't be happier. I feel myself developing every day. The guys I fly with sitting in the left range from highly experienced skippers to recent command upgrades. I have never regarded any as being incapable or unprofessional. Enthusiasm and a willingness to learn will see you develop at a steady pace. There is a wealth of knowledge available in Ryanair - if you want to tap into it! The training is of a high standard and the SOPs are there to protect you. Career progression is also good. Within 4 or so years you could have went from cadet to FO, to SFI to Captain. LTC and TRI/TRE could soon follow. All very transferable skills gained in a relatively short time.

One thing that can get to some is a certain level of lack of respect within the organisation. You could certainly say it has been the root of all evils. Some people may entertain a certain 'them and us' attitude. Whether it be management and pilots, pilots and operations, pilots and cabin crew, pilots and engineering - the list goes on. It is obvious that there is a 'I dont give a **** about you because you dont give a **** about me' sentiment circulating. This leads to problems and ultimately when you find yourself backed into a corner, this attitude is the one which will see you shafted. I definetly agree that we need some degree of representation. I am a member of BALPA, however it's unfortunate that many of their efforts have been in vain. Ultimately I believe its because of the 'FUJIMAR' attitude in the airline - **** YOU JACK I'M ALRIGHT! This attitude however will usually come around a bite you in the ass as there will be no one there to help you when you need it most!

So there you have it. I fully believe it's down to how you approach the job. It's going to be harder for you if you are leaving behind something that bit better i.e in terms of T&Cs, ethos and values. However then again you may be willing to surrender all this for more money and a bullet proof roster. In terms of joining as a cadet, well there is an arguement to the fact that this is all you have known so therefore it's ok. Slightly 'more worldly' individuals will know that that is a different story. However there are no misconceptions. Ryanair does exactly what it says on the tin.

[captplaystation]

RED WINGS,
kindly justify your CRM or safety concerns, or. . . . with the greatest of respect,:E shut up. In 6 yrs with Ryanair I can assure you that I had many inconvenient "techies " down route and was never once even under a hint of pressure to declare otherwise. Again, with the greatest of respect , you are speaking from your sphincter. (is that how we spell ass ? )
I don't think anyone disputes that our dear ol MOL could indeed be accused of being a bar steward.
When people query why one would wish to work for one I have always asked the question, "would you rather work for one, or for a company competing against one" ? QED :hmm:


Callsign Kilo,
I don't ever recall reading a post that so succintly summed up life in RYR.

I think you deserve an anti-bafta award for managing to sum it up so well without any of the usual hysterics/histrionics we see here.
Thank god some people manage to maintain some sense of realism in their observations/expectations in life.

[eagerbeaver1]

Aerobat

Ryanair will make 100 million euro profit and you agree to accept quite possibly the most one-sided, unreasonable ammendment to a contract that was not due for renewal for another three years.

Are you a member of Balpa? If not why not?

Why don't you believe unionisation is possible in Ryanair?

Have you visited repaweb.org? If not why not?

Are you aware of the current court case in Ireland? If not why not?

I am shocked by your complicity, what are you afraid of?

[aerobat]

Just to clarify, at Ryanair we are never penalised for putting anything in the tech log even if it down route, we would never be encouraged to exceed Captains discretion and we never have to explain a go around.
A lot of people on here that don't work for Ryanair spout all sorts of crap but the truth is we are trained to and expected to operate legally to a high standard - the last thing the company wants is an accident.
Our flight deck electronic monitoring has a very high capture rate which will result in tea and biscuits for non standard or hot / high approaches etc.

[Reluctant737]

Aerobat, that damn thing had me for exceeding bank angle within my first week on the line! Nothing came of it, but had a slap on the wrist...

I was still used to flying that 172 into Swansea making 'unofficial' GPS approaches to 'uncontrolled' airports! Some nifty maneuvering required sometimes!

And RED WINGS, kindly refrain from making a judgment on me until you've found out more relevant details. By that I mean, mine and my colleagues' monthly/hourly limitations are under IAA rules only. I think you'd find pilots in the UK (and indeed most corners of the Earth) flying hundreds of hours on top of their flying at work.

Is non-declaration of hours frowned upon? Yes. Is it safe? Yes, even more so. Does it happen? Yes.

And for the record, I follow SOPs biblically when I'm at work - out of work, it's up to me to determine what's safe and what's not. And I know that after a day or two off, I am very capable of taking a light aeroplane up into a sunny morning, loaded with a couple of friends to have lunch somewhere. Old Buckenham rings some loud bells when I mention food! Hmm, perhaps I'd better get that aeroplane sooner...

Ad

[captplaystation]

And for the "avoidance of doubt" if one of said "friends" had a PPL, it could indeed be that he was the "Commander" on the day/flight concerned ? :hmm:

Word to the wise ;)

[Reluctant737]

Indeed - I have a few friends who fly or are learning to fly. I used to be able to take the 'trainees' up every once in a while and let them have a fly around, pass on a few tips and whatnot! Unfortunately that's no longer taking place, but I'm sure when they qualify the tables will turn and they can take me up for a spin.....

......or two :E

And no doubt they'll pass on a few things to me their instructor's taught them. That's one of the great things I love about aviation, it's one veeeery big learning experience, and generally, people help each other to enhance that experience :ok:

[captplaystation]

Good boy, think (hope ) you got it.

Nod's as good as a wink to a blind man eh ? nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean ?

Christ I must stop watching Monty Python tapes :ugh:

[RED WINGS]

Reluctant, my comment was aimed at your earlier comment that you would fly a light airplane for fun (fair play im with you there), but choose not to log the hours if it conflicted with your work/duty hours! Doesnt matter what ICAO state you work under you are legally required to record ALL flights in you log book!

As for the comment to justify my comment on CRM see above them and us though various departments along with the well known oleary management stlye! I remember with ammusement the great "blow job" interview in I think Germany.

I hope what you say is true about pressures with tech log issues, I really do!

[Paracab]

I'm glad to see you got over your little 'wobble' Mr Reluctant, you obviously no longer 'hate the job'. Or was it just a wind up? :confused::rolleyes:

[Reluctant737]

Paracab,

Thanks for the enquiry - well yes, ironically (considering current times), things are much better these days.

I never did hate the job - now I realise my earlier qualms were entirely circumstancial.

Funny how chicks mess with your mind - I think they're a species best steered clear of! And no, there was no implication in that statement!

Ad

[david.craig]

I have to be honest, the sustainability [with the right base] is appealing.
It is all very well and understandable to point out differences, more specifically where Ryanair fail. However, a very stable roster and money that allows for a very comfortable existence alongside a steady home life.......


Still, the training regime is shocking :ugh:

[Paracab]

Fair enough old chap - just thought for a moment that rather a lot of JBers had been taken for a bit of ride. Then you mentioned chicks and it all became clear (never forget that they are all generally lunatics, wired up different from us lot ;))

Enjoy it all you lucky bugga :ok:

[miss marple]

Reluctant737

I can only talk from a female's point of view, but it's not a wonder you can't keep a girlfriend when you want to spend your time off doing what you do for a living.

Perhaps you should consider getting a life and leaving planes alone during your time off.

I wouldn't be impressed by a guy who wants to endulge himself in what he does for a living in his time off, what would you think of an accountant wanting to go to maths seminars over the weekend?

Flying is a job, but dont let it take over/run your life!

Good luck in the future with us girls, yeah right!

mm.x

[RobStob]

Flying is hardly 'just a job'. Fair enough that a standard '9-5' job in the office should be forgotten about on time off, but pilots fly aircraft because they love it and it is their life; it's difficult to switch off to something you love and have such an intrinsic passion for.

[nick14]

MM,

My good lady understands my passion for the industry and also appreciates the difference between flying for work, and taking my sisters boyfriend up for a cruise at the weekends.

Its not as if we are having an affair, I know she loves to do things in her own time and im not going to stop her.

Its all about understanding.

Anyway, back to the thread....

Nick

[south coast]

I am afraid I have to disagree with the last two postings. I agree I feel very lucky to do a job that I actually chose to do, as opposed to most people who somehow find themselves in a job, but it is still just a job.

I believe there are two kinds of people in this discussion:

Those who live to fly and those who fly to live.

I am the latter and therefore am happy to have nothing to do with planes in my off time.

Unfortunately, it can be the case that certain peple who fall into the first category come across as shallow and with no interests outside of flying and that can become boring.

Each to their own though...

[fade to grey]

Nice one south coast,
I think most people see a gradual transition from 'live to fly' to 'fly to live' as they grow up and get families etc.
As for ryanair this debate will never be finished....

[zerotohero]

South Coast

my god what a load of bull!

theres no way anyone got into flying because its a decent job, you have to like flying or theres no way you would make it through all the training, how you can say people who enjoy flying on there days off are dull is beyond me, sounds more like you live a very sad life yourself and cant see the fun side of anything anymore

flying a 737 is a fun challenging job and has great rewards (coming down all the time though!) but it in my eyes are far more fun than the equivelent job of maybe a doctor dare I say? but its still there to bring in the money and pay the bills.

as for flying on days off in light aircraft, whats more fun to someone into aircraft than taking up a C172 with a couple of friends on a sunny day and flying down to the north of france for a bit of lunch and sightseeing then a trip back at lower levels than FL380 been able to look at the scenery and do turns of more than 30deg if you feel like it and maybe the odd touch and go in different configs to demonstrate to your non flying buddys a bit of what its like in your working world,,,,,,,, i feel sorry for you if all flying is to you a way to pay the bills,,, your missing out on something fantastic that many of us still appreciate.

[Reluctant737]

Reluctant737

I can only talk from a female's point of view, but it's not a wonder you can't keep a girlfriend when you want to spend your time off doing what you do for a living.

Perhaps you should consider getting a life and leaving planes alone during your time off.

I wouldn't be impressed by a guy who wants to endulge himself in what he does for a living in his time off, what would you think of an accountant wanting to go to maths seminars over the weekend?

Flying is a job, but dont let it take over/run your life!

Good luck in the future with us girls, yeah right!Heh, see what I mean...

I have a lot to offer the right person, but then again I've only seen girls involved with aviation... bit of an airhead I am!

zerotohero - I'm 100% with you on that one buddy, it doesn't get much better than lunch and walk along the sea front in L2K or Jersey! And flying can take you to so many romantic locations. One day, perhaps I'll meet somebody who appreciates what I love, and of course it's that mutual understanding that makes the sound foundations of a relationship.

Belive me MM, I've shared many happy times with people, but more often than not it was work that took us apart, not what I do on the side (rock climbing, ice skating, skiing/snowboarding, paragliding, taking my friends/family out to cool places.... and dare I say it... flying....) :rolleyes:

And plus, I'm 20 years old - I'm not going to change for somebody else, life is there to enjoy, not to mess around worrying about relationships with other people who will probably fade away with time anyway. I've developed the art of self protection, and I feel fortunate to have experienced at my age what some may not know until their 40s, or indeed never...

Hey ho, it's all a learning experience :ok:

[Chippybus]

I must be odd I was never interested in flying and got into aviation for the craic! Its much better than my last job and never boring! I love flying its such a challenge and buzz. 99% of the people I work with are great and made some real good mates. Best decision I ever made. I had some money 25 years ago and didn't know what to invest in........so I invested in a known commodity MYSELF!

[FLYINGPAUL]

Could any of you kind gentleman help? I recently pass my interview with Ryanair and will start my TR this summer. Please could any of you help with the following?

1) With the news of the new pay deals, has this changed things with the brookfield rates of pay?
2) Once you are brookfield will you ever get a contract, is there anything you can do to influence this?
3) I think they base you anywhere they want but ask you for any preferences. Are there any places you will stand a better chnace to get for the Summer/Autumn. This way you ahve a little more say than being based anywhere if you request paces which clearly have no positions?
4) Finally anyone know which bases will see most expansion, outisde UK?


Paul

Thanks

[BelArgUSA]

Hola Reluctant737 -
xxx
In a sense, I recognize you as I was at your age, or about the same. Add about half of a century of years, and aviation, and I might be today, what you will be in 2050. For that I wish you the best. However 1960 was notably different then that today is.
xxx
The only thing you do not know is what is it to be, say, a "50 years old pilot" flying his career, for which the main reason is making a living. You do not have that experience, and you are (lack of life and career experience) unable to compare.
xxx
1960 was different. Many kids of my age, dreamed of being pilot. I would say, 99.9% wanted to be fighter pilots, Mach 2, 60,000 ft, F-104 Starfighter. Being a transport (= airline or military) pilot ... how horrible..! Flying a stupid Convair CV-440, a cargo DC-3, a C-119 or a Pembroke, what a disgrace. So I took the military pilot career as my goal. Going to the dance clubs, then to impress young ladies required a flight jacket with a F-104 squadron emblem, and a MG sports car. I was one of those. What I cannot grasp is, why today's young guys with dreams of being pilot, do not dream to be a FA-18 or Rafale "Top Gun" jockey instead of "driving a cattle car" limited to 30º bank.
xxx
But in training in USA (NATO) I had met USAF pilots (reservists) who were in real life, airline pilots, who had a paycheck with 4 digits... living in a country with palm trees and blue skies. They told me that airlines were keen on hiring jet fighter pilots, so was my first aviation education. Join airlines...
xxx
I joined the airlines for $$$ primarily. As a low life F/E 727. Then became F/O, then instructed in classroom and simulator besides line flying. Of course, I did love flying then, but the financial aspects became more relevant. From love of flying for airplanes, it changed to love of flying for money. The change occured around the time I became a captain.
xxx
No need to mention how the industry turned with the Middle East war 1973, deregulation 1979, airline bankruptcies, layoffs, unemployment, bankruptcies, and being based far away from home (half a world away). Eventually I got married, quite late in life (I was age 50 when we moved to live together). And then, airline job became just that, a job, and a paycheck. My wife was the most important thing for me. The only thing I kept on liking were the layovers, flying with a crew that were all friends, getting my wife along on trips, visit far away places with reduced fare tickets and discounts.
xxx
An aviation career goes in stages. You are as you are today, because you are some 20 of age. When you will be 40, your ideas will be completely different. I am retired now, and in view of the airline industry as it is today, never would I want to start that career today. All my mother paid, was my PPL. I would never spend $100,000 to become a 737 F/O, Do I miss flying, yes, as it was, not as it is today. Flying a 737 with FMS and auto-this and auto-that from Manchester to Amsterdam would not turn me on.
xxx
Good luck to you all with RyanAir an equivalent loco. And get out of these operations ASAP for a better life, a better paycheck, and respect of your pilot peers with legacy airlines. When I am in Europe, Paris to Brussels, I travel with the Thalys TGV city center to city center in 70 minutes, not Beauvais to Charleroi, and wasted hours to go to/from airports and being treated like cattle.
xxx
:rolleyes:
Happy contrails

[Reluctant737]

Thank you for your post BelArgUSA,

Well I can't really reply to anything specific form your post because essentially that would defeat the ideas behind what you're saying!

I'd love to have flown for the military, but unfortunately I didn't rank particularly high in the eyesight section of the genetic lottery (fortunately I came pretty damn close in every other area :ok:).

Well I'll tell you what, from my limited experience, worries me most of all. More than this bloody recession, more than redundancies, or abused payscales, or any of that.

What worries me is the future for pilots. And I'm talking two or three generations ahead - it would be an awful shame if the great century of aviation (as it may come to be known) was only that, a century. Summer days at the airfield where prospective pilots digged deep for that first trial lesson, layovers in exotic locations for short/medium haul crew (can't really avoid it if you're long haul), and a general 'family feel' between pilots all over the world.

Yes, I really worry for that, what with the advent of the 'new age', health and safety, advancements in computers, so on so forth.

Perhaps I'd have done better back in your day buddy :ok:

Then again, I guess the grass is always greener...

[the grim repa]

what a load of absolute absolute ****!!!this should be called the reluctant737 bores you to death show!if we want to read about your life we may buy the book.maybe we can back to dicussing the future for ryanair pilots rather than little boy pastimes and teenage girl fantasies.
for those who can look beyond daily existence or even have an interest in an aviation career as opposed to living with their head in the clouds,STAY WELL CLEAR OF RYANAIR!!
maybe you should have got your eyesight tested before you signed the ryanair contract,oh thats right it changes in front of your eyes.

[leeds 65]

On another thread it apears ryanair contracters are getting pay cuts.Any word on Brookfield slashing pay rates?im sure its not far around the corner?

[Reluctant737]

Grim Repa (good handle),

I was in two minds as to whether I should actually bother replying to your post because it's utter drivel, but I'll bite -

this should be called the reluctant737 bores you to death show!Then skip my comments, you have the ability to organise what you read do you not? Or would that be giving you too much credit?

maybe we can back to dicussing the future for ryanair pilots rather than little boy pastimes and teenage girl fantasies.Well first of all, there's no 'we' in this whatsoever - thus far there has been no contribution to this thread from you, postive, negative or otherwise, except to insult behind your shadowy mask. Again. And regarding the latter part of your comment, I can assure you sir, I partake in hobbies outside of work which would leave you trembling like a little boy.

for those who can look beyond daily existence or even have an interest in an aviation career as opposed to living with their head in the clouds,STAY WELL CLEAR OF RYANAIR!!Always the same story isn't it old boy? Well it all boils down to two possibilities. You are either an underskilled pilot who managed to drag their sorry ar*e through flight training via much 'yes sir'ing and 'don't worry with that, I'll wipe it for your sir'ing, coupled with a few partials and retakes who then failed to pass our very high standard selection process. Or on the other hand, you are a pilot elsewhere (real or Microsoft) who had a bad experience on one of our flights, perhaps the cabin crew didn't have time to deal with your small problem involving one stuck fly zipper, or that your water was a few degrees too warm for your delicate palette?

I'll leave the choice up to others to decide, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying you're a voice on here that is increasingly beginning to sound like a broken record.

Whatever your qualms are with Ryanair, why don't you take it up with the airline, instead of b*tching about it on an anonymous message board?

Just a thought... :rolleyes:

[Reluctant737]

Go on then, enlighten me, what kind of person might that be?

[the grim repa]

the young,infantile,just off the mothers tit type who know nothing about nothing but let on they know everything about everything.the pre pubescent,no scrotal hair type who shaves with a lollipop stick.the type who parades the high street in his 2 stripes like the cock of the walk.
yeah,i am trembling at your hobbies alright.is this the same guy who wishes he might meet someone who likes sea front walks in jersey.pass off 20 year old baby girl rambo and do not bore us with your idiotic,sports cart,jacuzzi,2 stripe boool****e.there are guys who just **** down the pan what you know about aviation.
wheres your pension?
wheres your loss of licence protection?
wheres your future?
wheres you balls?
you don't even own your uniform!

come on tough guy,bite again unless you are out for a moonlight walk with the cocker spaniel.

[Reluctant737]

Touched a nerve?

p.s. it's 3 stripe boool****e, not 2 stripe boool****e. If you're going to get personal get it right. And my pension/loss of licence insurance is in my bank account where it belongs, safe.

[Phantasm]

r737, whilst I cannot say I agree with all your previous sentiments, I wouldn't worry about grim repa. He's a well known :mad: stirrer and class A :mad: round these parts. He soon flees the scene when danger approaches.

[RED WINGS]

Reluctant 737 you say

"What worries me is the future for pilots. And I'm talking two or three generations ahead - it would be an awful shame if the great century of aviation (as it may come to be known) was only that, a century".

So why work for a company that is doing its best to destroy the future for the industry? I wish you luck I really do!:ugh:

[Reluctant737]

Red Wings,

You really don't have a clue do you? I am an airline pilot. I posses 2,000 TT, and 800 hrs on 737NG. Where else is there, in the world, I am going to work, considering the current crisis, with these hours. Ok, and at the same time, afford to pay off my considerable debt, rent, bills, food, car tax/insurance/fuel and so on?

Anyone incinuating there is really any choice or space for maneuvre for low houred pilots right now is talking out their ar$e.

I enjoy working for Ryanair - we fly lots of sectors a day (=landings, = experience), home every night, good pay, good fun, good people...

As I've said before, Ryanair right now is a very welcome oasis in the middle of a desert of 'Oh sh*t'.

[Flintstone]

I wondered how long it would be before Phantasm came to Reluctant's defense. Shall we ask the mods for an IP check? Free tip for you Reluctant Phantasm, never play poker. You've too many tics/tells to bluff and gave your alter ego away very early on.

Grim Repa, Red Wings and ASFKAP. You've no idea who you're dealing with. This man, this sky-god, this........hero came up the hard way. He flew medevacs (on a PPL) for several whole weeks in the African bush in a C182 that mysteriously morphed (in a subsequent post) into a Caravan that crashed in the "jungle"* because of a fuel leak leaving him and a colleague with multiple broken bones and internal injuries. No, really. It's all there in his old posts. you should read them, they're hilarious http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/nuts.gif

Reluctant. In Aussie parlance you've been sprung mate. Now cop it sweet and don't let the door hit you on the @rse on the way out. Somehow though I think you don't know when to stop digging and I shall watch your wriggling in this thread from my comfy chair.





*B()ll**** alert!! No bush pilot (I were one) ever calls it 'jungle'.

[captplaystation]

Reluctant, you must understand that when Grim is around (or indeed when Didimus maakes an appearance across on Repaweb ;) ) it is not only forbidden to suggest that some things (nobody in their right mind would claim everything ) may be just hunky -dory in Ryanair. Neither is it permitted to stray off the "only" subject on the grim approved list of subjects.
So please in future stick to the grim approved script :D

[The Real Slim Shady]

The latest incarnation of "The Deal" is a demonstrable indication of the contempt PB, EW et al have for the revenue earners.

I don't mind accepting a pay freeze: times are hard.

Nevertheless FR rely on making 2 quarters "announced" losses to vary the agreement: they don't keep to it tho.

They haven't announced losses, but insist on an African dictator vote - " If you don't accept this we will stick the baseball bat up your ass" - which runs counter to the "agreement".

The they introduce other clauses which vary the terms etc

The answer is simple......walk.

When they run out of experienced Captains: when they have their first serious hull loss( they got away wth CIA), and the sh1t hits the fan...your man MOL can watch his millions vanish.

[Edgar Kilkenny]

I have followed this thread with some interest, it started out a fair question and then, as someone has mentioned already, reluctant737 started entertaining us with his life stories, quite the story teller.

I took the trouble to have a read of a few of his other topics/posts, the funniest being when he was held at knife point, even though he fancied himself as someone who could handle most situations and had planned what to do should that situation ever arise.

So, in your spare time, you think about flying 182's, what to do should you ever find yourself being held up by a knifeman, and now we can add crashing in a jungle to that list.

Quite the man for a boy of 20 years old.

Keep up the stories, they are brilliant!

[Ten West]

I like Grim Repa. :ok:

He's a duuuuuude! :D

[disco87]

Just like sharks, smell blood they all come swimming

[Reluctant737]

Flintstone,

I'm curious, just what is your bone to pick with me exactly?

That I paid for my type rating?

I'll be honest, you're difficult to figure out (probably just the way you like it, so well done), but it's easy to see you hold a grudge. Not a positively attributable trait for a professional pilot.

You have well and truly grabbed the stick and gone running. You've picked up on something that, to your senses, seemed 'not quite right', and are now on a quest to pursue that 'tick' to the world's end.

So I come back to my original question, why do you find it necessary to curb my heel with such frequency old mate?

Unfortunately (for you), PPRuNe is not a proving ground of sorts for pilots, but a place to share opinions, or I gather that's the idea. I have nothing to prove to anybody.

You'd be surprised how often I've heard all this before, from you, from the guys (and girl) on this thread, it's all crossed my path in the past. I guess I should take consolation that you're all rather tame compared to what I've been subjected to in the past?

No dear sir, I'm not the one wriggling - when somebody asks for an opinion, I will share my experiences. I've never hinted at some form of inner 'Godliness', 'heroism' or otherwise.

Indeed, this thread regards my airline, and poses the question 'is it really that bad'?

I have displayed my personal circumstances as a means to show whomsoever may be interested that I am getting by, and generally having a good time where I am.

So, Flintstone, tootle along to another bush on the plain that is PPRuNe in search of your next prey, because I'll tell you this mate, you aint finding it here.

Cheers

[the grim repa]

"soon flees the scene when danger approaches".Shoot man,between you and old reluctant there we should get the soundtrack to "apocalypse now" in the background.a right pair of little widow makers we got here.Shoot man along with phantasm the "744 skip"?????we got us a proper little a-team starting.

as for playstation,well feel free to drift off to any little old topic you want.what is REPAWEB,by the way?

go on,take a nice big bite,you know you want to!!!!you are still being raped by mol and his cronies,no matter how you butter it up.just don't try and drag people who know better into the **** to make you feel better.At the sound of the next flush,that will be your terms and conditions as "pilots"???going further down the potty,but you got a jacuzzi and "3" stripes so that is just dandy.

in the words of mr-t,"you going to feel paaaaain"!

and for flogs sake,regurgitant737,stop calling it MY airline.if it is possible,having read your past posts on everything from your theories on the evolution of man to how you singlehandedly discovered black holes.it makes you look like an even bigger numbnuts than you could possibly be.
please nasty mr. o'liary can i have MY airline back now!!!baby!!!

[Reluctant737]

what is REPAWEB,by the way?

Google is your friend.

Ooops :oh: Bloody hell, now there's a frightening thought...

[the grim repa]

is that the best you can come up with.pathetic!!!still don't expect much more,when we are discussing topics that may have reprecussions beyond midnight.take a little stroll,or relax in the jacuzzi,just remember don't FLUSH THE TOILET!!!

[Flintstone]

As predicted ;)

In case you hadn't noticed I stayed well out of this until you decided to start playing silly buggers with your usernames. Other people pinged you too, not just me.

You had the sense to lie low for a while and it seemed you'd seen the error of your ways but as others pointed out you seek the spotlight, you just can't help yourself. In fact I'd say you display undesireable personality traits for this line of work. It has not gone unnoticed that you've tried to deflect attention from your tales, accusing me of stalking rather than discuss the transmogrifying C182/Caravan. Your downfall was over-egging the pudding, a common failure among Walts.


You'd be surprised how often I've heard all this before

Ever wondered why?

I have nothing to prove to anybody.


You got that right ;)


Seriously, stop digging. It's embarrassing. Unless you're going to explain Cessna's remarkable machine that only you seem to have flown (oh, and crashed) I'll retire to the aforementioned comfy chair and watch.

[Reluctant737]

And yet you still leave my questions unanswered?

I tell you what, I'll go first -

I'm not going to contribute to this topic being dragged away from the original intent, but if you have a careful read through what I've written in response to your 'allegations' in the past, you will find every answer you seek.

It is not a transmission problem, but a reception issue in this case.

And what's all this about 'leaving it alone'? This is an open discussion board isn't it? Who might you be to tell me what I can and cannot do? You're scared that what I write may reach the delicate eyes of easily misled wannabes? Well get with it, what I write is real life and what I've experienced. It's not so much an embarrassment as much an insult. I guess every forum has its self appointed Sheriff...

[eagerbeaver1]

R737 - 800 hours on the 737NG in Ryanair is a second officer = two stripes.

You talk a lot of rubbish, I bet I can smoke you out on the line. I will guess you are STN based? Will you be supporting Balpa?

[Reluctant737]

I'd better get a hold of this one quick before I'm accused of fabricating my profession - I was rather hoping Brother Grim would have picked up on that to demonstrate he did have sustinence behind what he was saying.

My recent answer was 'yes'.

I do not support BALPA.

I was dissapointed.

[Scratch Pad]

Having nothing better to do tonight I followed this thread before doing a bit of reading of some old posts of one or two people here. Oh, dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Don't know about the rest of you but if someone was pointing out such howling disparities in my career I'd be going out of my way to explain any 'misunderstandings' but I don't see much of that here.

Expect some leading questions in the STN crew room over the next few days.

[leeds 65]

lets get back on topic here,enough bull****ting

Benefits=good roster,new planes,pay is ok nothing amazing,good TRE lads and training,nice capts+cabin crew

Bad= brookfield - sorting out your own affairs is a pain,
no pay on standbys,
pay fluctuates hugely every month,
annual leave for brookfielders is awful - pretty much sept-march,summer no chance
1 month leave in a block is tough on money+boring in winter
10 days additional leave is given even if not wanted
in 1 calender year(jan-dec) it is possible to only work 10 months or less as months off can be given in 2 different roster years (april-march),for example feb 08(still 07 roster year) off and oct 08(08 roster year) off=tough on cash

its ok overall,the flying is nice

[the grim repa]

look relaxant737 - you are a bull****ter,you are the one who misled this thread from original topic with your fanciful mary poppins boool****e.you have been rumbled,suck it in and pass off.i have been fighting this fight against repressive management,their attack on my way of life and the respectful profession they would see in the gutter to save money,so that shareholders and the fat cats can profit while my future is divvied up.I DO SUPPORT BALPA AND I SUPPORT MY COLLEAGUES (even if the are self centred like you)to have a VOICE and a FUTURE free of oppression,threats,insinuated threat and intimidation.I Will be here well after you and the likes of hairy camel are gone.I may be a ****** and a **** stirrer,but i can look myself in the mirror every time and say i did the right thing.
"i Was dissappointed" you say.well whoopy do.it will all become apparent to you in time.you about to be a whole lot more dissappointed when mol done with your ass.
the word you were looking for was "substance",not "sustinence",clown!!!


leeds65 - do not forget the rest of the industry standard items we have had taken away from us,too many to list.the pension they robbed off us.the drive out of any and all pilots who would seek to have fair and equitable treatment.the lack of any greivance and disciplinary procedure.the total lack of respect and dignity for pilots.the court cases against captains who would refuse to go into discretion.
if "ok" is good enough for you,then it is fbloody far from good enough for me.about bloody time pilots stopped being such doormats and so bloody nice!!

[Bahee 96]

The Balpa card at the moment is open. We are currently fighting with Brookfield about their proposed 650 hours a year mark. This will obviously effect the pilots, under this contract, wages.

The future is not Ryanair, stick together and fight!!!!!???:cool:

[leeds 65]

that is awful.Bahee 96 where did you get this information?

That effects wages and time to command too

[RED WINGS]

I find it amusing how many PM's I have received from people about reluctant 737, I shall take the advice given and ignore from now on other than to say I bet its an amussing day on the flight deck:}

All I can say is having never worked for Ryanair, this thread has confirmed to me its a last choice airline to work for, which is what everyone Ive ever met who used to work for them says.

Wonder if that "Oasis" will dry up as employee treatment gets worse?

I wish you all luck, and hope FR dont drag the industry further down the pan, Im sure they will charge you for that soon to ;)

[south coast]

Is it actually true, or just a s story doing the rounds, that Ryanair are charging people to use the toilet?

[cptdivz]

it is not true.. Ryanair are thinking about doing it however if they were less people would buy expensive drinks on their flights thus it makes no sense in charging people to use the toilet!:ok:

[Whitstle_Blower]

LEEDS 65 and Reluctant 737-


I have a few things to comment on. I am guessing you are BRK. I can tell you right now that this year all BRK terms and conditions will be changing. Pay rates will be cut. Don't think that the "5 year contract" bit means anything. They will offer notice, say that the "Relucant 737 Pilot Ltd" is no longer required to work under contract with FR. You will be given notice, and then at the last hour, you will be offered a NEW contract that will start the day after you current one's notice ends, and that will have a reduction in pay in it. Mark my words. They have had FR pilots this year, and BRK are next.


Reluctant 737 - (Just for you)

"I guess the real question is, what can we do from the inside in a company that doesn't recognise trade unions?"

If you understand how a union is recognised within an organisation, you would know that if a union body, (BALPA), is found to have a large proportion of employees associated with it, (ie, BALPA subscribed members), it is AUTOMATICALLY given union status within that organisation. Therefore Join BALPA, and when it applies for Union recognition, it WILL get it.


"I do not support BALPA.
I was dissapointed."

What exactly can you have to be disapointed with if you do not support them?

I seriously hope you reconsider for many reasons. If you are an FR employee, then you will help Ryanair Pilots get recognised as Union Members.

People seem to forget that BALPA can only help, if the pilots want to be helped!! Join them and you WILL get what you want! A Union that leagal MUST BE RECOGNISED BY RYANAIR. They have no choice.

If you are not FR, but BRK, then you will get leagal help and advice for when BRK finally shaft you. Plus don'f forget that BRK pilots will be used to beat the conditions down of the FR guys. This is exactly what happened in Dublin not so long ago.

"And for the record, I follow SOPs biblically when I'm at work - out of work, it's up to me to determine what's safe and what's not. "

I hope to god you never have an inncident, especially one that someone is killed. The AAIB will tear you to pieces. They will look at every single thing you have done. All sorts of posts on forums like this will be looked at as to what could have contributed. Putting posts on here saying you would go flying and not log the hours is really stupid. Leagal proceedings would follow. If you are found to have lied about hours, you will go to prison. Most likely on Manslaughter charges.

Aerobat -

Please don't get dispondent. If you are a member of BALPA, then hang in there, if not, I suggest you do as a lot of people have been particularly p*ssed off by the way the contract thing has been handled. BALPA are taking action, but it will need every possible FR pilot to support them.

[JW411]

Dear FONT='verdana'/'sans-serif',

You are quite wrong, the AAIB do not tear anyone apart.

[Whitstle_Blower]

What I mean by the AAIB "tearing you to pieces", is looking at exactly what you have been doing as flight crew. They will look at every aspect of your life to see if there were physical or mental issues that could have effective your flight. They will look at your rest and flying schedules. That is what i mean, not in the literal term that they will hold you accountable. They will simply look for every piece of information to find out what happened. If somewhere you have fallen fowl of the rules, then that is a leagal body that will take it further.

[leeds 65]

So which is better to join or does it matter?

[eagerbeaver1]

Join the trade union where you work, Ireland - Ialpa, UK - Balpa. However Balpa is larger, so I would suggest them.

[cameldung]

I see that little has changed since I last visited PPRuNe, quite some time ago. The Ryanair "flag carrier's" posting in this discussion are just as narrow of vision and as self-serving as before (and either completely lacking in wit and maturity - or just taking the piss and laughing all the way to their handlers).

Really there's not a lot to be said, other than to say that Ryanair pay and conditions continue to decline at a rate which may one day help to wake up the slowest of slow learners.

eagerbeaver1 what used to be said on REPAweb was that Ryanair pilots should join the Association (BALPA or IALPA) relevant to their contract of employment - so all on UK contracts to BALPA and those at all Bases outside of the U.K. to IALPA. BTW, what you say about size is all very well, but anyone I know who was helped by IALPA came away feeling that their success in fighting various cases with Ryanair came from knowing what they were about. I certainly think IALPA has been a lot more determined and a lot less innocent than BALPA.

[captplaystation]

Much evidence has been aired on Repa of IALPA supporting numerous court cases involving Ryanair employees.
I don't recall reading about one case where BALPA was in the dock on behalf of a member.
With this in mind, who do you prefer on your side ?
If you have a UK contract however, you are probably stuck with the BALPA option. At least you can console yourself that you are helping to contribute to the snail like march towards recognition. :hmm: :rolleyes:

[CamelhAir]

captplaystation
BALPA supported the PIK based pilot who sued FR and won £70k. What they did to said individual was no worse than normal HR SOP in ryanair. Hence there's money to be made were people interested.

[captplaystation]

Sorry, yep I had forgottem that one. Bottom line, as said by a previous poster, join the one in the country of your contract.

[leeds 65]

:ok:

Thanks lads for the info

ill be joining one of the 2 within the week !!