Usage and Abusage

[capt waffoo]

We’re all familiar with this scenario; Someone posts on PPRuNe and makes a spelling mistake. Pretty soon there is another post picking him up for it, followed by an indignant and often abusive post criticising the corrector for being pedantic.

I recently read a post that actually claimed, “language is a very blunt instrument” (which it is not) and that “[spelling] is just not important” See Nite Flite’s post “Pilot or Not” http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/009735.html – this is a good example.

By spelling incorrectly language is indeed blunted, even butchered in the case of bad punctuation (incorrectly placed commas that alter or reverse the meaning of a sentence). It is a thin excuse to claim that readers know what is meant, how can we if the text does not actually say it?

It surprises me that some feel accurate spelling is pedantic when in fact it is merely correct, particularly in this pedantic business of Professional Aviation. People will complain fast enough if they get 9p change from a purchase when they are owed 90, is that being pedantic? Decision height is what? About 300 ft!! No, I don’t think so…

I’m not saying that everyone’s spelling should be perfect – mine isn’t – it’s the “doesn’t matter” that bothers me, particularly amongst people whose profession requires constant accuracy and identification of errors. Some people are better at writing than others, and sometimes we hit the wrong key and don’t spot it (see the flak someone got for that in the Pilot or Not thread). Some errors are forgivable, some understandable and some beyond the pale, such as “there” for “their” and apostrophising plural’s which is sadly so common.

Or are they just saying that correct spelling etc is not important here on PPRuNe, which is quite a different thing?
There are posts here in every form of English from text-book perfect to internet phonetic scribble, so how should we respond to those we see as wrong?

It is write or wrong to correct mistake’s on every occasion, that is reasonable.

Discuss…

;)

[ExSimGuy]

Some of our friends on the board are not "furst-langage-English-speekers" and as long as their posts are intelligible I don't see that they need to run everything through an (American!) spell-checker before posting.

Some our good fiends are not qualifried copy-trypists, and who needs to have "post edited by" just because an adjacent key got hit by mistalje.

Finally, I had the pleasure (?) of having Latin drummed into me at school (the one I went to was "aproved"!!) but I'm not going to moan about somebody thinking the plural of addendum is addendums, and not addendaria.
;) :) ;)
Who's next???

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Through hardship to the bras

[forget]

I’m next. Reference “language is a very blunt instrument’. A cockney will reply ‘Was you?’ to a friend’s statement of his whereabouts last night when it should be ‘Were you?’ Or should it?

With a singular ‘you’ I reckon the cockney is grammatically correct as in ‘Was he?’ ‘Were they?’

Latin scholars and language pedants – sort this one out; or rather, sort out this one.

[Flintstone]

Our language is ever changing, you only have to see the silly season news items detailing the latest additions to the Oxford English Dictionary to realise that. I find most of these additions irritating as they seem to originate from sales and IT departments and I refuse to use them.

Not much excuse for poor spelling though (except where Aeroboro and others who are posting in a second language are concerned) and I agree that the most abused are there/their and the dreaded greengrocer's apostrophe. This smacks of laziness and projects a certain image. If people are happy to perceived in this light then that's up to them. I don't claim to be perfect but at least I make an effort.

[HugMonster]

The trouble is, forget, that grammatically in English, "you" is always treated as the plural form. Hence "You were" is correct - "You was", whilst acceptable as part of a regional dialect (it occurs not only in Cockney) vernacular, is not correct.

The singular form, thou/thee/thy, which also had echoes of the French familiarity of tu/toi/ton, fell into disuse partly for reasons of that familiarity in early Victorian times. Only still accepted as part of traditional religious worship, the 2nd. person singular is now, curiously enough, considered the formal version.

The disuse of that from is, IMHO, a pity. It provided a certain amount of subtlety that other languages (e.g. Dutch, French and others) still retain.

As far as the pedantry of correcting others' spelling and grammar, I have not done so yet. I have felt like doing so many times, though. When the author is obviously not a native English speaker, to do so can cause unnecessary upset, hence my reluctance. Were I (that's the subjunctive) to do so, it would be difficult to know where to stop!

Oh dear... my former classics teachers would be proud if they knew how much had, contrary to all appearances, sunk in... One doesn't receive a classical education, one suffers from it! :)

[InFinRetirement]

What a terrific post!

We ort to be abel to git the jissed of what dont matter much in reel lyfe. its eXpresshun what cahnts innit? no what i meen?

I look forward to fun with this one.

Or should I say. "I say old chap, how absolutleeeee spiffing, good show what?

[AeroBoero]

Flintstone;
Is "Aeroboro" me?
____________________________________
:mad:
Let me put straight : English isn't even my second language...is my third. Although this is no excuse at all for bad writing/spelling/grammar , I try to do my best .If someone could see the problems I (and certainly many others) go trough to post something..... Sometimes I delete an entire post because I can't figure if two or three words are the way they are supposed to be. And some people may even take notice of how many times I have edited some of my messages. I even got a post deleted by an administrator another day because I managed to put some words in some way that were way out of hand and good education.(and I apologised for that)

capt waffoo ;
Despite (some) people "demanding" a perfect written language (English on this particularly case) , I can't agree at all on this. There are 18000+ registered members on pprune today....ask Danny how many are Brits / Yankees or Oz ones.....I'm sure that you'll find that you (English speaker national) are certainly the majority , but it still don't give you (or anyone of the spelling police) the right of jump on and degrade a fellow that is a non-English speaker.
Even in your own backyard the great percentage of the population don't speak/write correct English (that goes for Brits and Americans). Although the English language IS the easiest language to learn on earth today....your own fellows can't do that properly and yet you demand of us outsiders to stand up to your standards! Sincerely...give me a break would ya? English is so full of "slang's" today that is hard to tell what is right or wrong even for you sometimes....and again you demand that from us........
Then you have the "Internet factor". Many , as I , do post online and try to be as quickly as possible and avoid mistakes at the same time. That is almost impossible. Sorry for that.
I have a good idea for you. Go learn German or Dutch or Spanish....then after you felt confident enough to communicate , go to some BB that is on one of these languages and post something. With some luck you will be victim of the spelling police as I and many others are being targeted here on the pprune.
I could think of pages of arguments to show that it's not even close to fairness what you all (spelling police) are doing here.
But you know what? All of you that are unhappy with our presence (writing) , start sending e-mails to the administrators to have us blocked from accessing or posting on the Pprune if that will make your day more bright.......and for God sakes...don't ever leave your country again, unless it is for another English speaking country.And as long as I'm permitted to post here I will do so...and if that upsets you...well I don't care (anymore).
Have a nice day you all!

PS ; For the people I know that are English speaking natives...sorry.....this is not for you...but these fellows are really good at the art of upsetting someone......

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Reporte través de XAREO

[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]

[The Guvnor]

I blame the schools myself - I understand that teachers now (in the English state system anyway) are prohibited from correcting grammatical or spelling errors as it's an "infringement of individual expression"!

In the course of the Celtic project, I have ploughed through several hundred CVs personally - a very large proportion of which contained serious spelling and grammatical errors - curiously mainly from native English (well, I'm including - perhaps ill-advisedly - Americans in this category). Do I junk them because someone unable to write decent English is likely to render him/herself open to misinterpretation when it's most important? - or do I overlook that as an 'individualism' (although in some cases they are more like Spoonerisms :) :) )?

Finally, these poor educational standards make it hard for me to find a decent secretary/PA as well. The last one I had - despite having attended Cheltenham Ladies College - couldn't tell an apostrophe from a semicolon; and in any event sprinled punctuation around on an apparently random basis. And she had 'A' level English!

Finally, I'd like to make the point that people for whom English is a second (or third, or fourth) language usually manage to express themselves perfectly clearly - even with spelling and grammatical errors. It's the 'native' English speakers that should know better!

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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[StopStart]

Cap'n Waffoo,
Capital letter after a semi-colon? (line 1)

This type of Internet forum tends to generate a lot of "train of thought" type postings and as such grammar and syntax tend to fall by the wayside. I see no problem with this at all. Additionally, the odd typo and punctuation failure are forgivable as we are not all dictation typists. That said, people will form a subconscious opinion of a poster if all his/her postings are littered with basic "you're/your" and "their/there" type blunders.
As IFR said though, as long as one gets one's point across clearly and concisely then what's the harm? On that note then, may I request that people actually read through their postings before pressing the Send button; some of the things that appear on these pages are utterly incomprehensible.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/RAFac/1hercc32.gif

[The Guvnor]

Isn't syntax what one puts in the collection plate on Sundays? :) :) :)

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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[Flintstone]

AeroBoro,

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. The point that I was trying to make is that those of us who use English as our first and/or only language have no excuse when it comes to incorrect spelling and grammar. Those such as yourself who are writing in their second or even third (I'm impressed) language should not be held up to ridicule, particularly when those doing the finger pointing have been too lazy to learn another language themselves. I always make a point of checking a Ppruner's profile before responding as it can help to explain why a particular phrase, spelling or syntax has been used.

Please re-read my posting. It was not my intention to offend you.

[AeroBoero]

Flintstone ;

It wasn't directed at you (at all)....I still had the precaution of putting the line , but as you see.......I just wanted to know if "Aeroboro" was me.........but for what I wrote I still stand by that.

edited to show that I still can't manage good English
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Reporte través de XAREO

[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]

[Flintstone]

Damn!

Now I'm misunderstanding you in my own language http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

Does anyone have an old Linguaphone course for sale? Spanish, Greek, Esperanto.....what have you got? (Perhaps even English) :)

[jtr]

Dear Capt. waffo, it is our pleasure to enclose an application form for the position of direct entry check and training captain. As a result of the enormous expansion over the past few years, the experience level of some of our c+t`ers has fallen to an unacceptable level. What we require is more pedants such as yourself, who have nothing better to do than amuse themselves by picking up on other peoples apparent inadequacies. Yours in faith...

If it rocks your boat so much, punch out.

[jjj]

I believe there is special place in hell reserved for all pedants and spelling nazis.

[The Guvnor]

Shouldn't there be a capital 'H' in Hell and a capital 'N' in Nazi, jjj?? Really, it's people like you that give this place such a bad name!! :) :) :)

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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[ExSimGuy]

Guvnor, no;

Heaven, or Sister Theresa deserve Capitalisation (or Capitalization, not to offend Yankee Spelling Police!) whereas hell and nazi don't ;)

(All those UBB codes really took some working out!)

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Through hardship to the bars

[addinfurnightem]

I always thought that the apostophe either showed possession or plural, depending on which side of the 'S' you put it, but then, I only went to a Sec. Mod! And I put commas where I might otherwise take a breath, if talking.

[JP Justice]

Addinf:

The apostrophe denotes possession or abbreviation - not plural. The greengrocers' apostrophe is sometimes all right, as in "Cauli's" but it has spread to "Potatoe's" etc.

And another thing - the useful asterisk * is usually rendered as Asterix. Damn that French comic. And another - nobody seems to know that Pacific is an ocean, and that specific is a different word entirely.

(Just the ramblings of someone who got his English degree 32 years ago!)

[OzExpat]

I really don't believe this! Is every one on this BBS supposed to have a degree in English Lit from Cambridge? Or Oxford? Or ... give me a break!! Get a life and find something worthy to talk about because this is absolutely ridiculous.

I write ALL my posts in the way my thoughts present themselves. I put commas where I'd normally take a pause while talking, or to effect a brief distraction from whatever point I'm ATTEMPTING to make.

Do any of you people understand just how difficult the English language is ... when spoken in the UK? I've travelled around there a bit ... from the East End of London to the heart of Geordie territory. I can tell you that there's very little in common betwen those two extremes.

Have you ever had friends who come from a non-English speaking background? People who have had to learn anything up to 3 or more languages? Friends of mine, in Japan, are a wee bit (read "massively") confused by the pronunciation of English words, let alone the spelling of them. Makes it REAL hard for them to even find the word in a decent dictionary, I can assure you.

If any of you have ever used any other type of internet communication medium, perhaps like ICQ or Yahoo Chat etc., you'll know that there's heaps of abbreviations in use. There's also a lot of so-called bad spelling and poor grammar.

Wake up and smell the coffee, or tea, or whatever! There's a whole world outside of here and it's full of people with different levels of education, different languages, different concepts.

I have no problem at all with so-called bad spelling and/or grammar in posts here. If I don't understand a particular aspect in a post, I will ask ... very politely. I think that is the PROPER way.

I suspect that I've just wasted my time with this post, but couldn't ignore this form of ethnic cleansing. I vote that this subject be closed now and forever .... Amen!!

[Petergozinya]

I second the motion.

[The Guvnor]

Then, of course, we have the issue of regional spelling and word usage. The Americans claim that they speak/read/write English: yet for them the vowel 'u' seems to have a sharply diminished role: color, neighbor, favor, labor, etc etc. As most spell-checks are set to American-English defaults (unless one fiddles with them on installation) this means that the youth of such countries as Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa is increasingly 'Americanising' their spelling. The use of the word 'Mom' instead of 'Mum' is such an example.

Then there's different meanings of common words - an American asking for a 'rubber' in Boots the Chemist would be given strange looks; as would an Englishman asking for the same thing in Office World.

All very interesting!!

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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[forget]

Jeez OzExpat – Dunny collapse on you this morning or what? Ethnic cleansing?? You’ve missed the point here. Some care about spelling and punctuation. Some don’t. If you do you do. If you don’t you don’t. Other than that – no one really cares.

[capt waffoo]

I have to say I find it rather sad that a thread started as a discussion piece has degenerated so quickly into slaggig and insults.

My original post stated a personal view that spelling was important and that there is a difference between correct and incorrect, pretty self-evident, I would have thought. I then asked what you lot thought, I made no attempt to tell people what to do and criticised no-one, particularly not foreigners, AeroB. You are over sensitive, I feel!

Accusing someone of being a "nazi" or a pedant merely for holding an opinion is rather hypocritical under the circumstances, isn't it?

Perhaps the begrudgers would care to re-read the original post and see what was actually said...

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[JP Justice]

I claim ten points and a hand embroidered stubby cooler for instant wind-up of an Ozmate.

Nurries mate, irony just doesn't travel well through a modem!

[Slasher]

Totaly agree with you Waffoo. Those bloodey spelling nazi-troopers realy get up my nose too! Bloodey pedantic pain-in-the-*rse lunatics with nothing better to do than poke sh*t at other peoples minor spelling mistakes. Losers the lot of them. Right? Right.

Now there was a main reason why I wanted to make a post here. What was it again?.....

Oh yeh now I remember!

Waffs its not "apostrophising" its "apostrophiing". :)

[OzExpat]

Waffoo ... I really DID read and comprehend your opening post. I had no difficulty with the concept of a discussion of the issues. But, as I read thru all the posts that followed, it became clear that there are a few people who didn't comprehend your post.

Maybe that is part of the problem with the English language itself, especially in written form, in online mediums such as this one. My vote, in my previous post, to close this topic was born of frustration at the way I perceived the discussion to be turning hostile.

Clearly there were others who got the same impression too.

Forget ... glad to see that I got your attention. I think it should be obvious from my previous post that I don't have a problem with those that "care" OR those that don't. We can co-exist so long as there is no attempt to chastise those who "CAN'T", by the purists who "care". That's where I was coming from and it's the point you seem to have missed.

As to your reference to AeroB being oversensitive ... when was that a crime? How is anyone supposed to tell the difference between what is said and what is meant, in a forum like this? In any event, I don't think it would be reasoanble to dismiss the possibility that AeroB might have been confronted by unflattering statements in the past. I don't know him, but I know others from a NESB who have faced such situations.

If, for any reason, someone is unable to express themselves in terms of "the Queen's English", they should not be ridiculed. How many of you would do so in the real world and not expect it to result in a fight?

At the end of a long day, I don't come here to fight. I come here to relax and have a bit of fun ... even to learn what's happening in other parts of the world. But I think I'm as entitled as anyone else, to express my opinion, especially when "discussion" is invited.

It's been interesting to see how all the other posts have come about thru each author's interpretation of the written word.

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Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's enough!

[gravity victim]

hello all you butterfingered aviating typists out there...as SLF I trust that those jabbing digits all become super-accurate when applied to the knobs and buttons of your trade?

Actually, it is odd that with all the emphasis on computers and IT in schools, quite right too,none of the poor little sods seem to get any proper training in keyboard skills,dooming another generation to a life of two-fingered hunt 'n peck like

yours truly :)

[PPRuNe Towers]

Perhaps we can cut out the middleman and supply the next two week's posts on this subject.

This from an aircraft homebuilding mail list server to show it's the same the whole (electronic) world over:

Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a spark plug?
A: 1,445

* 1 to change the spark plug and to post to the mail list that the spark plug has been changed;
* 14 to share similar experiences of changing spark plugs and how the spark plug could have been changed differently;
* 7 to caution about the dangers of changing spark plugs;
* 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing spark plugs;
* 53 to flame the spell checkers;
* 41 to correct spelling/grammar flames;
* 6 to argue over whether it's "sparkplug" or "spark plug" and another
6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive;
* 156 to write to the list administrator about the spark plug
discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list;
* 109 to post that this list is not about spark plugs and to please take this email exchange to sparkplug-l;
* 203 to demand that cross posting to grammar-l, spelling-l and sparkplug-l about changing spark plugs be stopped;
* 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use spark plugs and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this mail list;
* 306 to debate which method of changing spark plugs is superior, where to buy the best spark plugs, what brand of spark plugs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty;
* 41 to point out that not all of us use spark plugs, representing all diesel owners;
* 58 to question why diesel owners are on a non-diesel mailing list;
* 3 to comment about conversions to electric;
* 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different spark plugs;
* 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and to post the corrected URLs;
* 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes spark plugs relevant to this list;
* 33 to link all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers and then add "Me too";
* 12 to post to the list that they are un-subscribing because they cannot handle the spark plug controversy;
* 19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three";
* 4 to suggest that posters request the spark plug FAQ;
* 44 to ask what is "FAQ";
* 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago dealing with oil filters?"
* 143 to ask "what's an oil filter?



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Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

[JP Justice]

Nice one PPT.

I am just so glad that I don't fit into any of those categories.

(edited for irony overload)


[This message has been edited by JP Justice (edited 06 September 2000).]

[Luftwaffle]

There are usually also one or two posts to tell you that you're all going to burn in hell for using spark plugs in that manner.

And no thread is complete until someone is called a "Nazi" or compared to Adolf Hitler. I believe that happened back on the first page of this one.

[OzExpat]

And the mathematics worked out exactly right too!
:) :)

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Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's enough!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Yep - I check too. Anal what??

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Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

[Flintstone]

Anal. That's something to do with SIA, right?

[traveler]

Oké, if we cram our responses in less mailings I want to be in the * 53 to flame the spell checkers.

[OzExpat]

PT ... does that mean neither of us has anything better to do with our time?

SIA ... hmmm, "sex in aeroplane"?
:)

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Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's enough!

[Wiley]

(Applies final polish to jackboots and adjusts der Sam Braun(e) belt over close-fitting black tunic.)

Capt W, you’ve got my vote 110%… It seems to me that many of our ‘English as a second/third language’ colleagues on Pprune have a far better grasp of the basics of English than many native English speakers. Some of course, do not - and anyone from the ranks of the ‘spelling police’ who heaps scorn on someone who is obviously not a native English speaker is beneath contempt.

It has become almost a given that people don’t check their spelling or grammar before posting something on the Internet, perhaps because they are online and mindful of the clock ticking. However, I think the Guvnor’s right - the overwhelming proportion of the blame for poor spelling and grammar should be placed squarely at the door of our education system over the last twenty years. In too many cases, people simply aren’t aware they’re wrong in their use of English because they were never taught correct usage in the first place. For that reason, I fear that Capt Waffoo’s deliberately incorrect use of the apostrophe in the fourth last and last paragraphs of his first post were probably wasted on many. (Think you might have genuinely blown it with the capital after the semi colon , though, Cap’n.)

StopStart’s very well balanced post should be added to the top of the ‘post in’ page:- reed… sorry – READ what yew… YOU right… sorry – WRITE before pressing the ‘send’ button, people.

Many of yew .. sorry, YOU are on this BB looking for a job (or a better job). If two CVs with similar experience levels come in to an employer’s desk, one with correct spelling and grammatically correct and the other not so, who do you believe will get the job? The same applies if you want to make a point on Pprune – surely someone who looks like he’s taken some care with his post gains more credibility from his readers than one who has not. We also pride ourselves as aviation professionals, where one mistake can have dire and sometimes rather final consequences, on double checking everything. After reading some (many?) of the posts on Pprune, I sometimes wonder what the poor old self loading freight must think as they entrust their lives to us. Gravity victim’s post is well worth reading on that point.

I have a few pet hates. It’s /its probably tops the list. (The apostrophe usually denotes the possessive case, chaps and chapesses. I know it’s crazy, but “its” is the exception to this rule. “It’s” is a contraction of “it is”, whereas “its”, without the apostrophe, is the possessive of “it”, (unlike every other instance where the possessive is used in the English language). Their/there/they’re, your/you’re and the dreaded unnecessary (or just as aggravating - missing) apostrophe follow. And addinfurnightem, just in case you weren’t joking and looking for a bite from some spelling police pedant like me, the apostrophe after the ‘s’ is used for words ending in an ‘s’, eg, “Jean Simmons’ husband was a famous actor as well.” It doesn’t show plural, eg, “The Simmons are coming for diner tonight.”

To paraphrase W.S. Churchill, (after he was criticised by some *** pedant for ending a sentence with a preposition), these and other common errors in English expression are mistakes up with which I will not put!

Sieg Heil!

I’m standing by to have pointed out to me the corrections to the half dozen mistakes I’m sure to have made in this post.

[Wiley]

Arrrgh! I found two mistakes myself after posting the above! OK, it should read "dinner", not "diner", and there shouldn't have been a space before the comma after semi colon. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'm waiting for someone to point out the others.

[Eric]

Never before in the field of Pprune posting, have so many posts been scanned, re-scanned and re-scanned again by so many posters!

[HugMonster]

1. Don't abbrev.
2. Check to see if you any words out.
3. Be carefully to use adjectives and adverbs correct.
4. About sentence fragments.
5. When dangling, don't use participles.
6. Don't use no double negatives.
7. Each pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
8. Just between you and I, case is important.
9. Join clauses good, like a conjunction should.
10. Don't use commas, that aren't necessary.
11. Its important to use apostrophe's right.
12. It's better not to unnecessarily split an infinitive.
13. Never leave a transitive verb just lay there without an object.
14. Only Proper Nouns should be capitalized. also a sentence should begin with a capital and end with a full stop
15. Use hyphens in compound-words, not just in any two-word phrase.
16. In letters compositions reports and things like that we use commas to keep a string of items apart.
17. Watch out for irregular verbs which have creeped into our language, irregardless of egregious examples that have been default-pasted into the dictionary.
18. Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
19. Avoid unnecessary redundancy.
20. A writer mustn't shift your point of view.
21. Don't write a run-on sentence you've got to punctuate it.
22. A preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with.
23. Avoid cliches like the plague.

[capt waffoo]

Wiley, I was beginning to wonder if anyone would notice...

And to all you vigilant people out there, yes that capital was a mistake. Failure to proof after a bit of cut and paste I'm afraid.

I think the matter of punctuation here on the web is much less important than spelling. A post without apostrophes is quite readable, it only becomes a problem if theyre in the wrong place, and so many spelling mistakes are just as gravity victim described, merely keyboard errors. Anyone can hit the next key along by mistake and it seems pretty rough to flame someone for that.

Heads down, Incoming!!!!

;)

[Wiley]

HugMonster, I dips me lid to yer in humble surrender, sooor.
Brilliant, trooly brillant post.

[OzExpat]

I do believes that HugMonster has sed it all hey!
:)

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Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's enough!