View Full Version : Why do Jet2 not fly SLOP?
MANAGP
3rd Mar 2009, 09:35
Three times recently I have observed Jet2 757s in MNPS airspace, and each time they have flown the centreline!
Is there a reason as to why Jet2 don't fly Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure?
Rainboe
3rd Mar 2009, 09:50
Where? It's not always practical to do SLOP when you keep getting directs- it wipes them out each time.
Bealzebub
3rd Mar 2009, 10:01
Any reason why they shouldn't?
I thought the "S" in SLOP stood for strategic. It allows for 3 lateral lanes, one being the centreline and the other 2 being at 1nm right of track and 2 nm right of track. IF nobody used the centreline, there would only be 2 lateral lanes for a given track.
MANAGP
3rd Mar 2009, 10:57
Extract from North Atlantic MNPSA Operations Manual 2008
8.5.3 Distributing aircraft laterally and equally across the three available positions adds an additional safety margin and reduces collision risk. This is now a standard operating procedure for the entire NAT Region and pilots are required to adopt this procedure as is appropriate. In this connection, it should be noted that:
a) Aircraft without automatic offset programming capability must fly the centreline.
b) Operators capable of programming automatic offsets may fly the centreline or offset one or two nautical miles right of centreline to obtain lateral spacing from nearby aircraft. An aircraft overtaking another aircraft should offset within the confines of this procedure, if capable, so as to create the least amount of wake turbulence for the aircraft being overtaken.
Bealzebub - You are absolutely correct about the 3 lateral lanes. However you are not restrcited to making your choice and not changing subject to other traffic.
Rainboe - It should be possible that having received a direct (which is somewhat unusual as routings are fairly set) you can re-insert an offset.
Rainboe
3rd Mar 2009, 11:30
Directs on either side of the Atlantic area are frequent. If you were then to offset, what would you be offsetting from? And why? You are being tracked for accuracy as well, so scope for offsetting is being reduced. I have been told we must always stay within 2 1/2 miles of specific track now or risk violation.
Are you specifically asking about RVSM areas or MNPA?
MANAGP
3rd Mar 2009, 12:29
I'm talking about MNPS airspace (OCAs). In my experience 'directs' are usually only given by Domestic ATC, if they are are given by Oceanic ATC they usually form part of a route change.
Rainboe
3rd Mar 2009, 12:40
Operators capable of programming automatic offsets may fly the centreline or offset one or two nautical miles right of centreline to obtain lateral spacing from nearby aircraft.
It's optional anyway!
MANAGP
3rd Mar 2009, 15:12
Except when overtaking!
Khaosai
3rd Mar 2009, 16:07
Hi,
If you had to do the offset it would state "Must", rather than should.
Playing with words, frustrating i know. We have the definitions of Shall, Should and Must in our FOM.
I am actually a fan of the SLOP procedure, particularly on some of the routes i operate on.
As Rainboe mentioned, if cleared direct somewhere, then no real need to apply the ofset again. If in doubt select route 2 (Boeing, blue line, dont activate/execute) and compare your original route against the direct.
Rgds.
haughtney1
3rd Mar 2009, 16:10
No MANAGP, its not compulsory
An aircraft overtaking another aircraft should offset within the confines of this procedure
And in many cases its not practical, in fact with the vagaries of the North Atlantic jet..quite often if you SLOP 1 0r 2 miles..you find yourself downwind..and in the turbulence.
SLOP is currently not a mandatory procedure.
MANAGP
3rd Mar 2009, 16:54
Ok, I'll accept that there is a difference between 'should' and 'must', however the North Atlantic Manual states
8.5.3 Distributing aircraft laterally and equally across the three available positions adds an additional safety margin and reduces collision risk. This is now a standard operating procedure for the entire NAT Region and pilots are required to adopt this procedure as is appropriate
Does the word 'required' equal 'should' or 'must'!!!!
I was just wondering what the Jet2 FOM stated?
Thus far there appears to be a difference of opinion on the acceptance to this procedure!
Pugilistic Animus
3rd Mar 2009, 17:24
I thought 'SLOP' was OPTIONAL!!!
:confused:
PA
Rainboe
3rd Mar 2009, 20:56
Distributing aircraft laterally and equally across the three available positions adds an additional
1- Zero offset (on track, a la Jet2)
2- 1R Offset
3- 2R Offset
Too lazy to offset (but I'm complying) count me in as bad as Jet2. (unless I'm eating someone's wake turbulence of course).
MANAGP
4th Mar 2009, 08:17
Rainboe - you seem to be missing the point! I'm quite happy that on track is acceptable, so long as you aren't overtaking someone who is also using the on track lane!
Rainboe
4th Mar 2009, 09:55
So I'm missing the point? How often do you 'overtake' traffic on the same level and same track across the Atlantic? I thought your point was answered. You questioned why Jet2 don't SLOP. Nobody has to.
MANAGP
4th Mar 2009, 12:03
Rainboe - In which case what does 'required' mean? Do you work for Jet2?
Rainboe - you seem to be missing the point! I'm quite happy that on track is acceptable, so long as you aren't overtaking someone who is also using the on track lane!
Forgive me for this, maybe I'm reading into this too much, but wouldn't Shanwick or Gander put a time/crossing restriction on you to preclude this ?
If it is at another altitude then it's not a problem, but I've never heard of someone one the same track, same altitude overtaking someone else.
Also I understand that SLOP is a required procedure, but at the same time zero offset means compliance even though you appear not to be offsetting your track. The optional part is choosing which offset but participation is required.
I say this as one of the slowpokes fouling up the tracks by doing .80 Sorry :uhoh:
MANAGP
4th Mar 2009, 15:00
FLCH - I definately mean at a different alititude!!!
Don't worry we are all flying a weird and wonderful speeds these days!
Seemingly this thread has got a little confused!
I was overtaken by a Jet2 757 flying 1000' above us, on the same track. On this particular day a wake turbulance encounter would have been avoided if they had used 123.45 to co-ordinate the overtake as per the rules. Before anyone asks I use a random method for selecting whether I take on track, 1mile right or 2 miles right on any given day. On this particular day it was on track!
The puspose of my question was to establish whether SLOP is SOP at Jet2, not really to discuss the merits of the procedure!