Best for HEMS? Thoughts

[capt tosspot]

Any experienced drivers or medics want to chip in to pub debate on this quiet day as to which makes better HEMS machine - 902, 109, 135 (or other). I prefer 902 as its got great cabin and skids, but 135 also in there as it is nice to fly with easy to use AP. Never flown 109 grande but not sure about wheels and cabin space? :confused:

[XV666]

How long's a bit of string?

What are the criteria:
What range is required?
What payload is required?
Is day/night/SPIFR a need/want/requirement?

B412EP will better any of the named types, with the AW139 coming along (give it another year or two: hopefully!) as a 21st Century replacement. 109S is small, but then so is the Bo105 and the 135, but for short range primary stuff, it seems to cope.

What level of medical care needs to be carried: NETS/PETS, on board gas/power, how big a power converter needed? What voltage do you need to go up to?

So, how long is that piece of string: are we talking UK short range county stuff, or somewhere in between AA and SARH?

Pub debate? Who's is the first round :ok:

[HOGE]

How long's a bit of string?

Twice the distance from the middle to the end.

[tacr2man]

1996 BELL 430 For Sale. (http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft-for-sale/BELL-430/1996-BELL-430/1146831.htm?guid=CB1653DCE3F9469AB5B2E246ACFC6D47) If its a big string , this would most likely fit the bill 430 ?

[SASless]

I have flown the 105, 117, and 412.....hands down the 412.

Much good use of 365's and 76's.

The 105 does a good job, the 117 better yet, and the 412 a very good job.

105...small, hard for the med crew to get to the patient, 117 (with big engines and autopilot) fairly roomy and fast but prone to make the med crew airsick, and the 412 the most capable and roomy. LZ size difference between the 117 and 412 not much different in reality. Plenty of range, lift ability, and easy access to patients with limit being ability of med crew to deal with the patient care needs. Usual crew was two med crew but add one more and two serious patients could be attended to in flight.

Cost issues are a different kettle of fish with the 117/145 being the best compromise nowadays.

The 109 is a poor choice due to cabin space.

[griffothefog]

HOGE,

Which end??? I think you will find it is twice the distance from the middle to ONE end :ugh:

Back to thread, AW 139, no comparison (if we could get the skids to fit) :ok:

[rottweiler]

My money would be on the 902, but I have not flown the 412. Wonder how they compare with running costs? As a compromise think the 902 gets it, but I have talked to people who swear by the 412. Now thats been no help at all, sorry.

[TOMMY1954]

Purely from the medic side, the best would be the AW 139 , followed by the 412 , then 117/145.
I worked as medic crew for 7 years in a Bell 222 A , not much space , not much power , lot´s of adrenalin pumping in hot weather , but I miss those days.
Cheers

[902Jon]

As with all of these things - it is horses for courses.
In London where at HEMS the average flight sector including t/o & landing is 6 minutes, where there is fuel at various locations around the city, and there are number of receiving hospitals, range & comfort and speed are not such big issues. But operating from a rooftop and flying into fairly tight confined areas much of the time does require a reasonable amount of engine power. So in that situation the 902 works very well. However in Canada, the U.S or Oz where the area to be covered could be huge, with little choice over fueling sites and/or hospitals the 902 would be useless. In that situation an
S76 or 365N or 412 would obviously be a better choice. Change the variables again and the BK117/EC145 could be the best option.

i.e there is no best helicopter - just the one most suitable for your operation.

[WylieCoyote]

Would someone be able to enlighten me as to the endurance of a 109 Grande, I'm talking in HEMS configuration with Doc and paramedic ofcourse. Interested to know how they compare to the other UK type machines(135,902,117).

[mfriskel]

If you take into consideration- landing offsite in unumproved areas, getting into and out of small areas, needing good power for vertical departures in all kinds of conditions (including VERY hot), minimizing effects of rotorwash, good single engine performance, and acceptable speed, no need for fuel endurance over 2 hours- in the rear having good room for patient and med crew, smooth platform that you can even do a good 12 lead with no ghosting, capability for 2 patients if they are not critical trauma, good scene safety with high rotor system, no tail rotor, high mounted engines and rapid start and shutdown-
I would pick the MD900, 902 configuration with PW207E engines. It is also a good hoisting platform.
If you don't need a small machine, don't worry about rotorwash or landing in towns and nasty LZs, and money is not an object- go with a 412 or 139.

Mark

[peterprobe]

If you take into consideration- landing offsite in unumproved areas, getting into and out of small areas, needing good power for vertical departures in all kinds of conditions (including VERY hot), minimizing effects of rotorwash, good single engine performance, and acceptable speed, no need for fuel endurance over 2 hours- in the rear having good room for patient and med crew, smooth platform that you can even do a good 12 lead with no ghosting, capability for 2 patients if they are not critical trauma, good scene safety with high rotor system, no tail rotor, high mounted engines and rapid start and shutdown-
I would pick the MD900, 902 configuration with PW207E engines. It is also a good hoisting platform.
If you don't need a small machine, don't worry about rotorwash or landing in towns and nasty LZs, and money is not an object- go with a 412 or 139.

Mark



wot he said........ agree entirely:D

[ShyTorque]

Would someone be able to enlighten me as to the endurance of a 109 Grande, I'm talking in HEMS configuration with Doc and paramedic ofcourse. Interested to know how they compare to the other UK type machines(135,902,117).

Not seen a HEMS version in UK but from some other role experience of the 'S' version:
Max. gross aircraft weight is 3175 kgs and it has Class A performance at 3175 kgs in a temperate climate.
The basic weight is about 2120 Kgs.
Up to approx 640 kgs of fuel.
Fuel burn with ECS on is about 225 kgs/hr at 150 kts cruise (slightly less ECS off and decreasing slightly with weight reduction, or keep the fuel burn up and enjoy the cruise speed increasing towards 160 kts).

With three crew and one casualty (estimate 90 kgs each?) plus 50 kgs for baggage / equipment you should get full fuel on board, so expect somewhere around 2.75 hours to 3 hours cruise flying.

If you mean flying / loitering at endurance speed, look to 3.5 hours plus.

This is a good, potent aircraft for good speed, good range and excellent OEI performance, but as already pointed out, the cabin would be cramped for a stretcher case despite the extra length over the earlier models.

[capt tosspot]

ta Heli, I was looking at local HEMS / AA trips around an hour in total back to fuel. Able to lift crew of 3 plus casualty plus pax or attachment if need be - say 460kgs plus 150 for med kit. SPIFR a definate as things seem to be moving that way. The 135 / 902 / Grande should all cope with this. I was just after thoughts if you have flown any of these on toughness of machines, cabin sizes, loading level, wheels v skids, tail v notar, high head v droopy blades - the hands on thoughts. Is the speed difference important over 20 minute legs - say responding to HEMS?

412 seems to get big vote from those who have worked it. cheers

[capt tosspot]

ta SASless. I havent yet heard from medics who use the cabin. One pilot mentioned having to turn the seat round to let paramedic sit at head of patient which was a bit of a bind. Is it really that awkward inside the cabin on the Grande? I take it you can get to all of the patient ok? Does the low sill height make it easier to load?
cheers.

[capt tosspot]

Yes, I agree re you get the suit to fit. That said, it may be that good finance, availability of second hand machines etc could swing it with the 'ideal' choice becoming 'well this is all we can afford'

Ive had a few happy and busy days with London and do like the NOTAR and big cabin for the urban stuff. I personally rate the 902 for that kind of work. I dont know how the spares backup is doing now but if its sorted then its a good machine til the next gen comes up. cheers.

[capt tosspot]

Hi Wylie, I can give you 135 T2 stuff (not 2+). With 370 kgs of bodies on and 150 of kit we can carry 465 kgs of fuel at most T and PA that we fly in. The burn is 197 / hr so thats 2.3 hrs to dry.
I think the + gives you another 85 kgs of payload and takes it up to 2920 AUW, but ask a 2+ wallah to be sure.
cheers.

[capt tosspot]

Thanks for that Mark. I feel the 902 is shading it - I believe a large Guiness is called for. :rolleyes:

[capt tosspot]

Seems that 109 Grande gets ticks for power, speed and US style robustness (which suprised me as I never really thought of it as a utility type airframe). But cabin is maybe tight for working in especially if you have big patient? Any medics help here with actual experience?

[JimL]

For a comparison of HEMS machines and payloads, check attachment A of this document:

http://www.jaa.nl/secured/Operations/Public%20Documents/TGLs/AGM%20S4%20Ops%20TGL%2043%20HEMS%20Mountain%20Ops%20Feb%2008 %20Print.pdf

Jim

[Droopy]

I'dreckon the 127kg of equipment would be better represented by adding at least 15% and more realistically 20% to the empty weight of each aircraft, certainly to the smaller types.

[capt tosspot]

Thanks for that Jim - just the job. I've had loads of cracking input folks. Seems to boil down to money and what you want it do do. 109 has speed, power good IFR, good endurance, wheels, low belly aerials. 135 bit underpowered at times, decent cabin, 130kts, safe tail, decent IFR, 2 hrs. 902 slow, great cabin, good for congested or tight areas, ok IFR, 2 hrs.

I shall now retire to the bar to :ok:!

[SASless]

Probably for the money, power, endurance, speed, cabin, rear loading doors, high tail rotor, tough builtness...and proven EMS intererior designs.....the up-engined BK-117 is the right answer.

The BK...once the engine problems got sorted....turned into a good machine for EMS.

The rear loading doors and high tail rotor make hot loading/unloading safe.

Having both side doors and tail doors is a real nice feature when cleaning the interior. The front seat crew member faces forward going outbound.

The two med crew when in the back have room to work and access gear bags.

You have the capability of carrying two serious patients and still be able to work on them.

The 76 and 412 have more room...but cost more to operate....are bigger all round.

My first choice with all things being considered is the BK.

Having seen a tranny cowling go through the blades....and the aircraft bring the crew home safe....really sold me on how strong the aircraft design is.

[WylieCoyote]

ShyT and Capt TP,

Cheers for the gen.
ShyT, I thought the Warwickshire and East Mids aircraft are Grandes? Or are they Powers which I've been led to believe are quite limited on endurance?

[9Aplus]

During Hiko times here in 9A both helicopters was BK117 version
-trouble with Turbomeca, 5% and less torque difference was dream.
-trouble with AOG (once near sea side 4 weeks, with nose to tail signed)
-when loaded in HOT summer sea side all med. equipment, lack of power
Rest was more less in order :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Wylie - both those a/c are Powers.

Only 8 Grands on the UK reg according to G-INFO, none of them EMS aircraft.

[peterprobe]

Capt tosspot, I agree with you bar one point. 902 ain't slow I followed one the other day and he was quite happy at 135 odd knots with 5 POB. Thats not shabby at 1000 ft or so( I know they had 5 pob from his call to ATC) So given it was cold (ish) about 8 deg and he had 5 POB and was at 1000 ft, I assume he had enough fuel for about an hour or so( I wont say which air ambo it was) but he was about 50 NM from home en route to a hospital, I think that is pretty quick.:D

[mfriskel]

Properly rigged, you should get 140 KIAS at nearly 5800 pounds, up to 6500 pounds a little less. Put stuff on the outside, lights ect.. it will drop.

[Explorer47]

Been flying HEMS for a while now (407). Which aircraft do you consider the best for this type of flying? Considering power, cockpit comfort etc.

[aegir]

For me the best are the EC135 and the EC145T2, dipending on the mission required. For sure they are HEMS helicopter and not long range SAR aircraft.

[Jack Carson]

I have been fortunate to gain some level of air medical transport experience operating the Bell 206L3-4, Bell 230 UT. AS-350B2,3, Agusta 109E, BK-117, EC-135T2,P2 aircraft. All had their pluses and minuses. From my perspective, the best all around VFR aircraft was hands down the 206L4. It was always the little aircraft that could. Utilizing a progressive maintenance program we sustained a 95% dispatch rate flying 80 to 120 flights per month, day and night. We routinely performed lifts from medical facilities and scenes up to 9000 feet density altitude. At the other end of the spectrum the EC-135T2 was a great all around day/night VFR/IFR machine.