IFR Training Software

[Tolka]

I am about 10 hours into my training for adding an Instrument Rating to my SEP PPL. I have been looking at software for practicing radio navigation and instrument procedures. The two main ones I have come accross are Elite Instrument Training Software Core Package and ASA Instrument Procedure Training Course. Does anyone have any advice on the relative merits of either package (or any other one for that matter).

Tolka

[S-Works]

I did an article comparing the main simulators for the nest GA magazine. I compared Elite, XPlane and MS Sim and reviewed them in the context of VFR and IFR flying. Elite came quite at the bottom of the list. It is old and clunky and not easy to use.

For what you want get Xplane of MS FSX would be my advice.

[usedtofly]

RANT (Radio Aids Navigation Tutor)

Oddsoft Ltd (http://www.oddsoft.co.uk/)

It's the only one :E

[flightlevel1985]

RANT is the way forwards :ok:

[Fright Level]

RANT is a good procedures/indications trainer but MS Flight Sim is better as it puts the whole thing together with a normal pilot interface (ie the stick) so you can actually fly approaches and get the visual segment at the end as it is very important to include the outside in your scan near the MDA. Being able to see what 600/800m actually looks like a mile out from the runway is essential to the real life use of the rating as I've seen people go round at MDA just because they couldn't see the runway itself (approach lights leading into the murk in good view though). Approach charts available free from the AIP website.

I use MSFS before my SEP IR renewals putting the actual weather in so I get a good feel for the timings/drift on the day.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

just because they couldn't see the runway itself (approach lights leading into the murk in good view though).
On my last IMC lesson (made interesting by a static failure) we couldn't see the runway, but we could see all the lights. "You only need to see the first row of lights," said the instructor.

[flightlevel1985]

When I did my IR I remember we were at our MDA at around 400' on an NDB approach and popping in and out of cloud. Vis was bad, but like you say you only need a sign of the runway system. Its a nice sight once those first approach lights come in !!

[Fright Level]

You only need to see the first row of lights," said the instructor

I can't find the legal definition of what you need to be able to see at minima on a CAT 1 approach, but it's something like "at least one of the following .. approach lights, runway threshold or lights, VASI/PAPI, TDZ lights or runway edge lights" so your instructor is right.

Right on limits at 200' you're still going to be around 1200m from the touchdown point so likely a km or more from the runway. At those sort of limits/range, all you're going to see are the approach lights unless it's one of those 10km+ below solid 200' cloudbase days.

RANT doesn't give you the whole instrument approach "experience" hence my suggestion to use MSFS where you can even have rain clattering on the window to give a better feel of what you'll see at MDA. The instruments all work properly too and are in the standard places on the panel so a scan is more naturally learned than with RANT. Power settings, flaps, gear etc are all very important aviation items to keep in mind when flying an instrument approach on a dark stormy night, so anything that helps build that learning is a good thing.

[usedtofly]

Fright Level,

I do agree with you, however Tolka asked about..

software for practicing radio navigation and instrument procedures

I have found that RANT allows one to practise and become familiar with the procedural element of instrument navigation with out getting caught up in the drama of trying to fly an unrealistic flight sim at the same time. I think flight sims like MS are fun but not serious enough.

Flying an ILS is quite straight forward compared to flying an NDB approach with the beacon on the FAT (Cranfield) when the mind has to deal with needle 'reversal'.

Joining an NDB hold needs thought and sometimes quick thinking, these type of things are easier to practice without the distraction of 'flying the 'plane'.

The real advantage of RANT is that you can stop at any time and also re run the fun with traces plots etc to see what happened.

Pays yer money and takes yer choice I s'pose

UTF

[dirkdj]

I have been using different PC flight simulators over the years, starting in the late 1980'ies. I did my IR in 1974 when PCs were not invented yet, it was a three hour round trip then to use an WW2 original Link Trainer. Even the most primitive (some UK software running under DOS, don't remember the name) was very useful for developing situational awareness. In IR flying a lot of the action is inside your brain.

I currently use X-Plane version 8.64 and 9.22 on Linux and MacPro (4 intel CPU). The more processing power you have the better. X-plane will run on PC, Mac and Linux. You can install the free demo version that will run for ten minutes in full capability but with a limited geographical area. Download the free demo from: here. (http://x-plane.com/)

I use the program a couple hours before my annual IR renewal and it really helps if you practice the approaches with unusual winds, low ceilings etc.

MSFS maybe more beautiful to look at but XP has a much better flight model.

[HLloyd26]

I have also been looking into this recently as about to start my IMC training. I have got RANT and was planning on getting the Elite Pilot Core thing as couple of people at my club recommended it. I see its got some bad press above from Bose-x who always seems to give good advice so maybe i'll have a rethink!
My computer is not very fancy though and i thought it might not cope with FSX to well?

Cheers

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I have also been looking into this recently as about to start my IMC training. I have got RANT
I find that flying each lesson in advance on RANT using that day's forecast wind is very helpful - it means that when I get into the aircraft I have a reasonable idea of where I am and where I'm going and what the wind is doing, and I can concentrate on the actual flying (which RANT doesn't attempt to simulate).

[Sciolistes]

have got RANT and was planning on getting the Elite Pilot Core thing as couple of people at my club recommended it. I see its got some bad press above from Bose-x who always seems to give good advice so maybe i'll have a rethink!
Interesting. I've been using Elite for all my instrument, commercial training and sim checks for years. I think it is a brilliant piece of software and much more suitable for the job than X-plane of MSFS (which I had been using for much longer). The performance is to book numbers and the avionics are fully simulated allowing you to practice precise procedure and help form good habits. Failures can be made random and insidious to the extent that cross checks mean something. In particular I find it the most ergonomic of the competition. It is also much easier to set and configure precise scenarios that for particular training wants.

It isn't cheap, but at least a bottom of the range cheapo PC will run it smoothly probably more than offsetting the software cost.

I would suggest you get the demo. To get the most out of the demo you need to "freeze" it then you can configure failures, position the aircraft whatever without running out of time.

[dirkdj]

I used Jeppesen IFR simulator for several years, but they never updated it to run with modern operating systems. Like Elite, it only offered a small visual window on top of the instrument panel, just enough to see if you were visual at minima or not; doing a low approach to minima in X-Plane is much more realistic, of course computer hardware has advanced greatly in the last 10 years. It would be a good idea to test any demo software before deciding, running power hungry software on a budget computer is not a good idea. On the other hand, a good computer plus the software of your choice is only going to cost the equivalent of a couple hours of flying and can save dozens of hours or make the real-life hours more productive. The cockpit is a lousy classroom, even simple things are harder to grasp when trying to fly straight and level in (simulated) IMC.
Don't use the PC simulator to teach yourself IFR, use it to practice and perfect what you've learned in flight.