Massey University Flying School

[coconut99]

Can anyone shed some light about Massey Universitys pilot training course? My nephew has been asking me about NZ flying schools and Massey in particular. I was going to suggest Ardmore, but I think things have changed a lot there since back in my day. His communication with massey suggests they might have an airline internship programme (I cast my doubts...), the fancy degree, and cpl with atpl theory after a long three years.

Any info or other flight school suggestions much appreciated :)

coco

[mattyj]

Forget about the degree..if it takes longer than 2 years then they're wasting your life

[Fark'n'ell]

Massey University Flying School

Bunch of tossers.Can operate an aeroplane but couldn't fly a kite.

[Afterburner1]

coconut check ur pm's

[Massey058]

It depends what you want out of it. In terms of the flying training itself its really no different to anywhere else.

There is plenty of info on Massey University - Aviation Home (http://aviation.massey.ac.nz) but to 'shed some light for you' The Degree is a 4 year one condensed into 3 years:

Year 1: PPL-CPL Navigation
Year 2: CPL-IF-MEIR
Year 3: Instructor Course or Selection of Papers that can be completed extramurally

A lot of people take the latter option in Year 3 so that they can start looking for work or do another Instructor Course elsewhere.

While I didn't do the Instructor Course its a pretty intensive one run by an bloody good A-cat with input from the other bloody good A-cats at the School, it does take longer but it includes a lot more.

After the first 2 years you end up with 170 single engine and 40 hours multi engine with 100 hours PIC as the course is approved by CAA for the lower PIC. All the ATPL theory is complete along with a BGT rating (which must be activated with 3 starts). The degree obviously adds more stuff than what you would normally cover elsewhere and it can be a pretty high workload at times (not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make part-time work difficult).

Its fully integrated so you do need to make the commitment to see at least the first 2 years through. This will not be for everyone.

This personally worked for me, as I am very interested in the industry aside from just working in it and it opens the door for further study at a Postgraduate level.

And believe it or not Palmy isn't that bad, in fact sometimes I even miss it!

Cheers,
058

[Got the horn]

There's a Wholly Bagel in Palmy. Great bagels and excellent coffee. Try the barnyard on a jalapeno cheddar bagel. Super-wicked-awesome.

[S.E.A.L.11]

I have not regretted my decision to go to Massey at all.

I think it is a structurally sound course and if you put in the effort you will reap the rewards. It is a hard course and you will experience set backs, although this is no different from any other organisation.

I too have been affected by the delays but I am not one to complain all that much as it has been down to factors that life presents. The aviation school itself is constrained by the University itself and would be much better off running as its own college (as apposed to running as part of the college of business).

I have been taught by some of the best lecturers you could ask for when it comes to theory and the content is well above the standard required for ASL exams (hence why you get a degree at the end).

In saying all of this I think it is imperative to get a type rating or two outside of the school at an aero club or the like in order to realise that the Massey way of doing things is not always right and there is a big bad world out there. I found this to be hugely beneficial to remaining in tune with the rest of the GA community out there.

Aside from the course itself Palmy is an ideal training environment with a controlled airport with a wide range of operations. There are numerous uncontrolled aerodromes nearby as well as all types of navigation aids for instrument training. Palmy itself is cheap to live in as a student and everything is close by.

And hey there are some great prospects for the school in the next year or so ;):oh:

~S.E.A.L~

[bogdantheturnipboy]

I went to Massey,but if I had my time again I wouldn't.

If you want a degree - then great, otherwise don't waste your time.

Yes I think there are a few very good lecturers and there were a few decent instructors but I agree wholeheartedly with previous posts, in that management treat you with contempt.

Forget the internship - total crap.

[S.E.A.L.11]

Ah yes there is no internship at the moment and they certainly do not advertise one.

[coconut99]

Thanks for all the info boys and girls! :ok:

Very interesting indeed. Sounds like any flying organisation, great flying, bad management, and lies.

S.E.A.L.11: "Ah yes there is no internship at the moment and they certainly do not advertise one."

When an interested young chap calls up to find out about the course and is told by the school on the phone that there is an airline internship in place with a large airline, that sounds like advertising to me. I might just call up myself to have a good chuckle at the fibs. :=

Coco

[wtfia]

I attended Massey Aviation and completed the degree course- finished up a few years back now. Must say Im not really surprised to read of the same problems still present there.

Sure I have a degree, however if I had my time again I would do it differently.

I think many of these points have been covered, you pretty much summed it up here, "Sounds like any flying organisation, great flying, bad management, and lies", but here are my 2 cents..

Firstly I would get my flight training done elsewhere to save the coin- preferably somewhere that also has a charter operation, as you probably well know he will need all the help and contacts he can get when it comes to finding a job. Not sure if things have changed but I found it a curse to have Massey on my resume when job hunting post grad as Massey had alienated many NZ GA operators.

Secondly if he does wish to earn a degree, my advice would be to do one in an unrelated field. I have often regretted my BAv as I have all my eggs in one basket. What is the BAv really good for? I mean unless you are looking at flying for the short term and perhaps going management later in life, even then a BBS would probably be of more use.

And yes the rubbish talk and promises..ah the memories...

Just calling it how I saw it.

[SPEEDI]

Being a current student at Massey University i see there are issues, such as a lack of resources, and instructors. however it is new Zealand and also australia wide that every training organization is short on instructors. Speaking with other students in Australia and New zealand everyone is behind the curve and so many, are much much worse than that of Massey. School of aviation at least understand there is an issue and as far as i know are working with mgmt. to help alleviate this issue by such means as taking on smaller class numbers, and implementing programs to see more instructors trained up and retained at the school.
With a proposed fleet replacement in the future its obvious Massey university are preparing for the future and the huge demand that the training industry is going to experience.
Flying kiwi1, 7 months behind in training is a lot, but speak to any medium sized to large training schools and you will find such figures as 10 month delays and schools not being able to cope with demand.
Coconut there are lot of negatives to Massey but to the same degree of any other flying organisation. the hold up is primarily at the multi engine stage, with all single engine flying being pretty much on time. another diserning factor is the weather in palmerston north which can cause some delays. I have worked my arse off for my degree and as my training comes to an end i WOULD recommend the university to anybody.

[SPEEDI]

Got the horn u have no taste!!!! that bagel is disgusting

[lazysundays]

There was a Massey-Garuda internship in the mid 90's - a couple of batches of grads were sent onto 737's, but that one has been dead and buried for 10 years or more . Ever since then there have been rumours about an 'upcoming internship program', but I'd take them with a grain of salt.

[50cent]

SPEEDI:

good to see you are enjoying your course, what are you now? Msy50s?

see how many of you at the end get CPLs?

as a young chap looking for a flying school like above, i am not saying that he is not good enough to pass all his subjects on schedual. but if you are scraping by most classes, you better watch out. may be one day you wont be that lucky and end up having 69% twice in a roll on some aviation management paper that have nothing to do with flying planes, i doubt you will still say the same.

employment aside. just sad to see young and ambious people get their dreams crushed by the school. if you cant fly, fair enough, take another profession and earn some real money.

ask the instructors when they are pissed (if they have developed their social skills in the past 3 years of full time 24/7 study), are they enjoying it? make sure end that question with "REALLY?".

[Got the horn]

Ok then, a Reuben filled bagel on a pumpernickle bagel.

[coconut99]

SPEEDI: "the hold up is primarily at the multi engine stage, with all single engine flying being pretty much on time."

Backlogs during the multi phase are a common delay for quite a few flight schools. What's masseys excuse; aircraft? Instructors? Do they only approve the top B cats and A's to teach multi? If this is a problem, why not get C cats (who can legally teach multi) onto multi instructing too? I assume most C cats are Massey trained and should therefore hold associated ratings, except maybe a ME instructors rating?

Just a thought, as I have seen this at some organisations where the CFI and management will only select the top cream of the B Cats and A cats to teach multi to students, yet complain they are short of multi instructors to clear backlog. In most cases, the main reason why some organisations do this is to hold on to their instructors as long as they can...no multi, no moving on to bigger jobs. Is this the case at massey?

There are other organisations which allow 'proficient' C cats and lower B cats to also teach multi, and it seems to efficiently clear multi phases. I'm sure there are some capable C cats around NZ. What are the massey C cats like?


Cheers,

Coco

[Got the horn]

I think it goes ".....blah-blah-blah, it's the equivilance deal with the CAA blah-blah-blah, it's in the CEA...yaddya-yaddya..."

I know of a C-Cat under direct supervision who is teaching multi in the Manawatu region, it can be done

[Massey058]

Historically the delay in the multi stage has been much less about Instructors and more about serviceability. The Seneca V is a beautiful aeroplane but not particularly suited to the rigours of training and as such spends a lot of time in the hangar.

Amazingly even with all the downtime we experienced with them we still seemed to have a better serviceability rate than Southern China in Perth with their V's.

058

[S.E.A.L.11]

MSY058 thats down to the incredible work done by the in house Fieldair engineers...top blokes who do a great job!

50cent - Speedi has passed all neccesary papers and has got through the bulk of the degree unscathed.

I concur with the comments that the delays are like any other flying school in the region. Its a part of the industry at the moment and I dont think you will find one flight school where everyone is less than a month behind schedule.

[Massey058]

Was a student there as the name suggests and then worked there but now work overseas.

Nothing new covered here really, the pros and cons have to be weighed up and people have different experiences. The search will reveal my general experience - not all positive thats for sure.

flyinkiwi10 is right on the money with instructor availability and resource allocation it was and I would imagine still is a very real issue but by no means exclusive to Massey.

While the Duty Instructor concept in its current form may not be perfect especially because it takes a flying 'asset' out of circulation it is a valuable safety measure and would certainly detract from safety and any potential urgency/emergency situation if that Duty Instructor was allowed to fly away from base as used to happen in times gone by. Also if there is no Duty Instructor around it can be an absolute nightmare to get a solo student signed out with obvious effect on the schedule.

058

[SPEEDI]

Coconut, massey is in a building stage and if they were to train up there only 3 C cat flight instructors what would b the reason? when there are more B cats to be pushed through th multi trainign. the C cats could be used more effectively (not wasting time on Multi trainign) to move students to CPL handling. Massey is consistently investing in there instructors paying for there trainign and flight tests not to mention getting to learn from 4 of the most senior A cats in teh country, (including last years instructor of the year)

Delays cant b soley blamed on the flying school, how about student availability? students work, have families and obviously cant dedicate 7 days a week to overcome such issues as weather and resources, however Massey strongly recomends to finish on time, u should make urself readily available and students just cant do it. Massey is open 7 days a week pretty much 350 days a year, to students.

Flyingkiwi1 assumptions are the mother of all F-ups, ur assumption that only 2 are going through the instructor course are quite incorrect from what ive heard those that were succesful in gaining placement into the instructor course received letters of confirmation "a legal contract" stipulating that they have to take them into the 09 instructor course therefore by only sending 2 instead of the "contracted" 4 this would cause a huge legal debate betrween the parties. the reason for taking 4 would also come down to a resource issue. with a lack of resources Massey have decided on pushing through the single engine students and only brinign 4 into the flight instructor course which in my opinion is a better idea than bringiong on 10+ "possible" instructors and wasting the resources on them. why bring on 10 or more average wannabe instructors when only 5 or 6 will complete it succesfully.
it is a wise move on Masseys behalf and alongside the proposed new fleet (which will increase the current fleet size by 50%) they are working towards repairing the backlog theyre experiencing.
I agree a plan shouldve been implemented earlier on but every flying school is guilty of not implemetning a plan earlier and Massey is one of them, but least they are now on top of the issue and i see them succeeding through the years above any other medium to large flying school.

[SPEEDI]

Oh yeah and another innaccuarcy of flyingkiwi1s previous comment there are actually 3 A cats and 4 B cats flying multi, with another great b cat well on there way to being a multi ifr instructor.

[50cent]

"why bring on 10 or more average wannabe instructors when only 5 or 6 will complete it succesfully"

thats some discrimniation right here. why 4 or 5 wont complete the instructors course?i know c cat is hard but it is not so hard that 50% of the trainee instructors can not be successful.

oh right, SPEEDI is a ace top gun, same as M058, average joes like myself are not good enough for your group and we are not cut to be instructors, how could you say that, what makes you so arrogant?
so get that trophy with your name on it, and see if you have any luck at the aeroclub with the ladies

[SPEEDI]

Want some discrimination call up CAA and ask em what the general success rate is before you come on here and start acusing me of discrimination, yes it is hard, yes the success rate is actually 60%.
As for me, you dont anything about me, i never mentioned i was a top gun, i didnt mention i was in an elite group of pilots, this makes U the arrogant one for making these asumptions, who even mentioned that i wanted to be an instructor? i understand where your coming from but the numbers dont lie and no im not arrogant im still learning just like you (by the sounds of it). hahaha and i personally know M058 is and he is the most modest nicest guy you'll ever meet. so before you post think before u make wild allegations or assumptions. good luck with the ladies champ.

[blzbub]

Fiddy cent, whilst Massey058 may not be able to handle his alcohol very well and has a rather dubious dress sense, I at no time have heard him making proclamations as to his ace-like status as an aviator either here or after a few too many Heinekens (if there is such as thing as too many Heinekens). Pull your head in ya peanut.

[Massey058]

Well looks like I'll be buying SPEEDI a few beers when I come back to the country for being far too nice.

How neat that the thread has now been reduced to the fact that I wore a vest once and own orange shoes.

You know I thought full deflection on the ILS was perfectly acceptable, I haven't hit anything yet and I do try and keep the engine spooled up so when I get too close to the trees I can get away from the bloody things. Thats of course assuming I don't notice the little man in the roof lining yelling TERRAIN TERRAIN, he's awfully incessant you know.

I jest of course, I'm not that bad but one thing that Massey didn't teach me was over-confidence in my abilities (in fact I blame my parents more than Massey). Maybe thats a bad thing because there is a happy medium to be found I'm sure.

[Got the horn]

Well at least Airways have seen sense and are now allowing ILS's at uncontrolled aerodromes (ie OH&WP after hours and on the weekends). This should help expedite things eh? Excellent...now this family goes into a talent agency and the father says "Have I got the act for you"............

[troppo]

Wtf?
How can you have a 60% success rate? ASL exams and flight tests aren't rocket science and neither is university. So is it a reflection of the (wanabee) pilots enrolling there?

[SPEEDI]

Flyingkiwi10 im in complete agreeance with your last post well said

[glekichi]

Massey:
Some classes are still trying to finish the flying 7 months after their official finish date (it was supposed to take two years).

After the first 2 years you end up with 170 single engine and 40 hours multi engine with 100 hours PIC

Hawkes Bay:
3 years and graduate with C-Cat and 700 hours

Go to any of the other regular providers and pull your finger out. After 2 years you can have been working as an instructor for one year and already out of (direct) supervision.

After three years you should already have two years of income back in your pocket, a B-Cat, and likely be flying Chieftains somewhere.

[Got the horn]

3 years and flying Cheiftains? In NZ? Dreaming!

[glekichi]

Um, no.
Dreaming if at Massey, by the sounds of it.
I admittedly left NZ and moved to OZ after the 2nd year (1 year of instructing), but got there, and I know of two others at least that have managed it (out of the small group of that I know!). One fella got in to Eagle within a few months of the 3 year mark (from the start of ab-initio training).

The point is, that a dedicated student at the right school can go from start to CPL, instructor, and M/E IFR within 12 months. Thats without coming in on Saturdays or Sundays, either. To plan for 2 years and be delayed to nearly 3 puts a student a long way behind in his/her new career.

[Massey058]

glekichi

I admittedly left NZ and moved to OZ after the 2nd year (1 year of instructing), but got there, and I know of two others at least that have managed it (out of the small group of that I know!). One fella got in to Eagle within a few months of the 3 year mark (from the start of ab-initio training)

You like myself needed to go overseas in order to get things moving. Yes there are people who can get into a piston twin job 3 years from start of training but that is definitely the exception rather than the rule. Certainly its best not to sell people on the idea that they will find a job no problem in NZ.

On top of that the market at the time obviously has a big influence and we have just come off what was a reasonable lack of supply only to be crushed by the current global economic situation. We all know the ebbs and flows of the aviation market, so if you can time it right - lucky you.

On the EIT course it does seem to be quite good, one of they guys here where I work went through it and I know a few others from there who are in Eagle now, wasn't within 3 years mind and I don't know if all of them ended up with 700 hours before leaving.

Horses for courses of course, of course, of course. Massey, EIT etc take longer because there is more than just standard flying training. That's the choice that people need to make and maybe far too many people make the wrong choice and thats unfortunate but they can always come to this forum beforehand and get completely confused :eek:.

At the end of the day for a small country NZ is quite fortunate to have quite a wide range of training organisations and even though there is the small-minded bickering and insults I don't think any of them bar maybe some of the places doing training for foreign contracts are 'bad'. You just have to decide:
* What time frame you can afford
* What you want to achieve
* Where you want to live while doing it
* How you can afford it
* How you can afford to live while doing it

058

[Rendezvous]

Well said MSY058

[glekichi]

Fair enough re horses n courses Massey058. Not going to argue with you at all on the jobs situation, either. However, it doesn't matter if one ends up in Eagle, overseas, or flying singles somewhere in NZ - regardless, there is a lot of experience to be gained in that 1-2 years, and money to be earned also.

[rosscojohn]

I don't understand why everyone gets so petty and personal over training organisations! Different organisations offer different types of training, some are fast, others take longer and are more intense. It depends what you want out of your training

[Got the horn]

typical PPRuNe, 90% crap

[HardCorePawn]

Well I feel I am highly qualified to contribute... given that I was at the school for a 1/2 year course (that took a year) about 9 years ago :rolleyes:

My only complaint at the time was that the people on my course were treated a bit like 2nd class citizens... lower priority for aircraft, resources, instructors etc. than the guys on the degree courses.

The fleet was pretty solid... mainly Piper Warrior III's which I have to say were kept in good nick, a couple of funny french things and the twins... Oh and the big Chieftain that always seemed to be missing at least one engine :confused:

To be honest, I had no real issues with the administration... they seemed friendly enough and I would have rated them somewhere above IRD and below an average hotel concierge in terms of helpfulness.

The students on the other hand were another story, but I have been told things have changed quite a bit since the 'Sky Gods' days... and, these days, most of the Massey guys I run into at various airfields seem pretty decent and without the top gun attitude.

Talking with a few people who have been there in recent times, it would appear that things have improved in some ways since I was there... Just a shame that in NZ, a bad reputation seems VERY hard to shake... and people don't seem to subscribe to the 2nd Chance system... :sad:

[ZK-NSN]

Another Massey thread....
Degrees can be very helpful when it comes time to get into the likes of Air NZ etc, in terms of a first job, which is really just as critical, employers dont really care too much in GA. Having been involved with employing pilots I can tell you its like any other profession, Attitude and ability count for more. Every pilot has the same basic qualifications to operate an aircraft, a licence and a pulse, whether they trained at the local aeroclub or one of the space academies throughout NZ.
Its no secret that Massey has a pretty crap rep in NZ. However most schools in NZ of a similar size are no better, if not worse, but they dont seem to have the same problem with reputation?
Nelson aviation College, New Plymouth Aeroclub would be my recommendations. All a little off the beaten track but you'll find alot more of there past students in the system than other schools.

[Konev]

ive heard to many horror stories about massey to recommend them to be honest, especially from the ATC side trying to get massey aircraft to report their location in reference to the map and not bearing, distance and altitude.


my 2c worth of crap towards the 90% crap.

[Downburst]

In New Zealand and Australia I would go to CTC in Hamilton. They train people for European and Asian airlines like Monarch, Easy Jet and Jetstar Pacific. They put people into Eagle Airways (Air New Zealand) as well. They got modern aircraft amd senior staff with airline background. They offer their students to airlines. They are an integrated and modular course provider for the EU JAA approved by the UK CAA. I don't know what the course costs but I have heard they have finance facilities. I don't know their website but if you search for CTC Wings and select the New Zealand option you should get there.

[27/09]

Downburst

Not sure your facts are altogether correct about CTC re the airlines you quote and the availability of finance. They have some modern gear however they are a sausage factory. They are just like Massey without the degree. There are other providers out there who are as good and provide a more rounded pilot.

[RadioSaigon]

...provide a more rounded pilot.

Just a damn shame that industry doesn't appear to want pilots anymore... just sausage-factory processed airborne computer managers that can read and blindly obey a manual.

It seems that actual pilots are far too free-thinking, self-reliant, wilful and capable to have any place in the modern cockpit...

:}

[haughtney1]

As a "well rounded" NZ pilot who went throught the aeroclub training route... and who subsequently ended up flying for one the airlines mentioned previously, I can tell you that CTC is in NO way a sausage factory, it is in point of fact a training provider who tailor their methods from day one to suit an airline SOP driven environment.
They must be doing something right.....as those who graduate have to date had something like a 99% hit rate in being placed with partner airlines.
The people running the place are very very experienced in their chosen field, they are also almost entirely ex airline training/management bods who identified a shortfall in the "well rounded" pilot when it came to flying for an airline.
My take on this is from the perspective of having seen BOTH sides of the argument as well as working alongside and with CTC trained cadets....clearly the critical comments directed towards CTC are based on either a lack of understanding or more likely the typical kiwi tall poppy jealousy type comments reserved for those individuals who have achieved a greater degree of personal success than the critic.
Masseys current failings are well documented, and sadly unchanged in the last 5 years or so IMHO.

[S.E.A.L.11]

Masseys current failings are well documented, and sadly unchanged in the last 5 years or so IMHO.

Failings such as?

[27/09]

Haughtney

My comment was not to put CTC down but to make the point that they are no better than many other training providers out there.

However to comment on a couple of your statements

it is in point of fact a training provider who tailor their methods from day one to suit an airline SOP driven environment.

When you regularly hear CTC aircraft operating and ignoring a critical warning system you have to question this statement. The twins operate for extended periods of time with the gear warning blaring away, it can be clearly heard whenever they transmit. You can't tell me that this is in keeping with good airline SOP's.

clearly the critical comments directed towards CTC are based on either a lack of understanding

There are other things I have observed or have been told about. My comments are certainly not based on a "lack of understanding" as you put it.

The sausage factory comment is a fair reflection.

[haughtney1]

The twins operate for extended periods of time with the gear warning blaring away, it can be clearly heard whenever they transmit. You can't tell me that this is in keeping with good airline SOP's.


A gear horn blaring away? Is that it? your premise is based on the noise of a gear horn being overheard on a radio transmission? plus a bit of hearsay?..give me a break...CTC IS a training organisation so im sure plenty of twins have the gear horn blaring..particularly during a single engine approach in a low drag configuration.

As for the sausage factory comment..well..I tend to side with the recruitment and training departments of Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Jet 2, British Airways..and a few more besides who all take graduates straight into the right-seat as I suspect they know a great deal more about the subject than you do 27/09


SEAL..the PPrune search function is your friend :ugh:

[27/09]

I tend to side with the recruitment and training departments of Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Jet 2, British Airways..and a few more besides who all take graduates straight into the right-seat

Are you telling me that they don't take graduates from anywhere else.

My point was there are others providers as good as CTC.

CTC has an excellent PR machine but the spin that comes from that direction takes a bit of swallowing at times. They are no better than many other training organisations despite what they may believe or tell the rest of the world.

The Gear Warning
All organisations can have areas where they have poor SOP.
CTC hold themselves up as being the best I use this as an example to show that they are just like anyone else.

I consider this to be very poor practice.

It goes whole time they are OEI.
It could be silenced by using a slightly higher zero thrust on the 'dead' engine
They choose to leave the warning going, by doing so are teaching students to ignore an important warning. You can't tell me that this is good SOP.

[HardCorePawn]

They must be doing something right.....as those who graduate have to date had something like a 99% hit rate in being placed with partner airlines.

I thought that the partner airlines 'pre-book' placements... that is to say, they tell CTC "we want X cadets this year"... so CTC accept X number (+ a margin to account for drop-outs etc) of candidates...

something similar to what Airways do with the ATC trainees here in NZ...

Like most large training organisations, I hear good and bad things about CTC... Although I do know that a lot of the ill will towards CTC goes back about 5 years or so... before they "moved" to Hamilton :ouch::oh:

[haughtney1]

Are you telling me that they don't take graduates from anywhere else.

In terms of low houred non-type-rated bods, most of the airlines I've listed wont even look at you unless you have attended the likes of oxford (almost twice the cost) Jerez, or CTC.
CTC IMHO produce a specific product at a very cost effective price.

My point was there are others providers as good as CTC.

Where did I say there wasn't? But Massey IMHO certainly isnt one of them.

CTC has an excellent PR machine but the spin that comes from that direction takes a bit of swallowing at times. They are no better than many other training organisations despite what they may believe or tell the rest of the world.

Except that the spin..marketing..call it what you like, is based on cold hard facts.
CTC produce a consistently high standard of graduate that is in demand by their partner airlines. What better marketing tool do you need other than to say..."you'll get a well paid job at the end of your training with us"

The Gear Warning
All organisations can have areas where they have poor SOP.
CTC hold themselves up as being the best I use this as an example to show that they are just like anyone else.

I consider this to be very poor practice.

It goes whole time they are OEI.
It could be silenced by using a slightly higher zero thrust on the 'dead' engine
They choose to leave the warning going, by doing so are teaching students to ignore an important warning. You can't tell me that this is good SOP.

Again so what?
An airline I used to work at had an SOP of calling for "flaps in"..rather than "up" as per the Boeing FCTM........which according to the manual is a non-standard/poor SOP as it is outside the manufacturers guidelines, and we aren't talking a little under powered twin, we are talking 180 tonne airframes carrying 270 passengers. Does that make a former employer of mine a poor operator? is it an organisation that encourages recklessness and slip-shod practices?
The answer is..how the hell can you tell from that little snapshot..which is why 27/09 I put it to you...how do YOU know what is being taught to whom and at what stage..if you aren't there.
Is the regulator concerned? Do freshly graduated students go out and ignore warning horns and such? Has CTC a history of safety related violations based on unsafe/unsound teaching methods?
I've had exposure to CTC graduates in the flightdeck, I've acted as a safety pilot whilst they've completed their 6 take-offs and landings in a 757...with 270hrs in their logbooks...
Mayby 27/09 you'd like to qualify your remarks with a little more about your background? because from where I sit...you look like the chips on your shoulders are gonna need surgery to remove.

I thought that the partner airlines 'pre-book' placements... that is to say, they tell CTC "we want X cadets this year"... so CTC accept X number (+ a margin to account for drop-outs etc) of candidates...


Hardcore....thats partly true, however the students have no idea with who or whom they are likely to end up at.
Suffice to say, they progress through a selection process and commence training...at some stage later the are offered positions at partner airlines..but only once they pass the selection procedure for that airline.

[krypton_john]

I see Massey have an all new G1000 equipped fleet on order:

Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10560727)

Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million

Massey University's aviation school will replace its fleet with 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 (pictured) and two twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 aeroplanes.

12:00PM Monday Mar 09, 2009
Massey University has spent $8m buying 14 new planes - two high-performance twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 and 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 - to replace the aviation school's fleet of Piper Warrior single engine and Piper Seneca twin-engine aircraft.

The school, which flies out of the Milson Flight Systems Centre at Palmerston North Airport, offers degrees in aviation with professional pilot training incorporated.

School general manager Ashok Poduval said Massey would be the first flight training organisation in New Zealand with an entire fleet of training aircraft which had state-of-the-art Garmin 1000 cockpit display systems, which enhanced safety and improved training quality.

"Flying an aircraft today is not merely about 'stick and rudder' skills - it is about managing a technologically advanced machine," Mr Poduval said.

"We are investing resources to keep our students ahead of the rest."

Advanced aviation students at Massey, Brandon James Gedge and Dae Jin Hwang, died when their planes collided at an altitude of 472m near Opiki, southwest of Palmerston North, in February 2006.

The Civil Aviation Authority said the pilots had been unable to see each other because of the planes' inherent blind spots and because for much of the time one was climbing, it was headed directly towards the sun.

The school said the new aircraft would be fitted with Spidertracks, a real time tracking device developed with the aid of Massey University mechatronics graduate James McCarthy.

The device enhanced the safety of students, Mr McCarthy said.

"The trainers can follow the students in real-time and know where they are, wherever they are."

Massey vice-chancellor Steve Maharey said the purchase of the new aircraft reflected the university's major commitment to the school.

"We're looking forward to great things in terms of the programmes we can provide for aviation students both here and around the world."

Four of the aircraft were expected to be delivered at the end of May with the entire new fleet in place by the end of the year.

The planes were manufactured by Diamond Aircraft Industries in Ontario, Canada and distributed by Hawker Pacific.

Senior instructors at the school would undergo training at Diamond Aircraft's factory in Canada over the next three months.

- NZPA

[Got the horn]

Canada eh? Choice!

[Konev]

oh great, more reliance on the panel in front and not your eyes outside when doing PPL to CPL training, and are those diamond twins the ones with the single throttle with automatic mixture control? or was that diesel only?

those aircraft are really going to help massey students get into the GA scene.


"how do you read these dials? wheres my glass cockpit?"

[HardCorePawn]

Canada eh? Choice!

<insert jokes about beaver here> :}

But seriously, any idea what they might be doing with the 'old' fleet?

[S.E.A.L.11]

Haughtey, just like a lot of people on this forum you make a statement and when asked to back up your comments you can not do so.

I'd also like to point you to a particular piece of the Flight Test Standards guide that is for all of NZ by the CAA... Here is the CPL FTSG, read the foreword on page 3.

http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Instructors/CPL_Flight_Test_Standards_Guide_(A).pdf

I'd say we are in more than capable hands. I think part of Massey's rep is due to the fact that they fly with the callsign "Massey XXX" and have aircraft painted with Massey on the side. This makes their aircraft/pilots easily identifiable in the event of an incorrect radio call, incident or whatever the case may be. If you have ZK-XYZ from who knows where, then no one can point a finger at any particular organisation cos they dont know which way to point. The exception being Airways controllers.

Think of it this way, a car runs a red light and collides with another car. It may make the local newspaper, if someone was hurt. If this car that runs a red light happens to be a police car with no lights or sirens, then it will be national news...

[Got the horn]

Lycoming motor's, not the diesels. Now, where's my bagel?

[haughtney1]

Haughtey, just like a lot of people on this forum you make a statement and when asked to back up your comments you can not do so.


Because SEAL quite frankly, I can't be bothered..its been covered PLENTY of times, as I said, use the search function :ugh:

The Fleet renewal is a step in the right direction.

[27/09]

Steady on there Haughtney old chap. You seem to be taking things a bit personally. I can assure you there are no chips on my shoulders. I have a similar opinion of some other larger schools as I do CTC and that includes Massey. I'm not sure why you are so sensitive about CTC.

My initial post on this thread was to make the point that there are other very good providers out there other than CTC or Massey for that matter, and I expressed the opinion that they are a sausage factory, which they are. They may be good at what they do but they are still a sausage factory.

[ZK-NSN]

I was under the understanding that most of the overseas student are on a cadetship scheme. As for the Locals training there, i havent heard or seen alot of them coming through GA in NZ. As sad as it is to say, I think CTC students would have a hard road into GA in NZ for the same reason Massey students do, some people seem to have an attitude (unjustified or not) that they are drop kicks off a sausage line.
From what I have seen CTC is a well run and organised operation who pay there instructors well, this is a strange concept to most NZ schools.
As for student making themselves "famous" around the country, any of you guys hung around Ardmore flying school or Canterbury recently? They are only students after all, we didnt all drop out of our mothers with 10 fingers and toes, holding a pilots licence.

those aircraft are really going to help massey students get into the GA scene.

Konev. Give them a little bit of credit, Im sure they can convert to the older dails. Times are changing, glass is the way of the future, Mountain air (Fly my sky) recently put a glass display into one of its peice of crap, turn of the stone-age Islanders. Its cheaper to buy than a full I.F kit, easier to maintain and is TAWs capable. I trained on and operated old school machines in GA with the old dials and steam driven avionics (if you can call it that) When I came into the regionals I had never used an RMI, I found it a bit of effort to convert to EHSI and EADI's. Its the future, get with it.

[haughtney1]

Nothing personal here 27, merely trying to clarify what I was alluding to with real world examples.
My relationship to CTC is through as I said, experience of the end product as well as being involved in the Type-rating process of these people onto the 757.
As far as Massey is concerned, I am convinced that the qualifications offered have more to do with lining the Campus coffers than it does providing the students with a viable and well recognised qualification. Certainly a university degree is a valuable measure of someones ability to disseminate and complete work, on the other hand it is utterly useless unless it is relevant.
IMHO, the Massey sylabus falls down under scrutiny with respect to relevance.
The other weakness that has been thoroughly covered on PPrune is the lack of any continuity of training, and sadly, that problem goes back a long way indeed.
I'm all for people bettering themselves, upskilling, and generally being educated, but I dont see how the Massey programme improves a young aviators chances of gaining worthwhile employment (over the likes of CTC), in point of fact I believe it creates institutional and academic barriers.
Far better IMHO to go to a good school with a solid pedegree and contacts..than to chase a qualification that will do very little to help you as you sit down to that sim assessment :ok:

[dutchienz123]

As a new member to pprune, Ive just spent the last half hour reading the debate on whether or not to go to Massey. The arguement sways from pros to cons but to be frank, the only people who should be commenting are ex students of these establishments. Its very easy to bag massey since its such a recognisable flying school around NZ but what needs to be said is that they too are just typical kiwis trying to further their education in the field of aviation. Who says that spending a couple of extra years to get a degree isnt worth it? and on the other hand who says it is? It really does come down to the individual and their needs. Most training organisations have their pros and cons, if they didnt what would make them unique? Each tailors to different needs of pilots around the whole of NZ.

I believe the aviation community in NZ is great for one thing but is it really necessary to bag on others whom are probably in the same boat as you are?

[AutopilotEngage]

Ex-student

Enjoyed most of my time there. Took a little long to finish. Standard of training very high. Great people. Great town. I would recommend it to anyone.

[lilflyboy262]

When you have only done your training there, you dont really know what a high level of training is.
A small flying school generally will give you more personal and better one on one training as your not a walking $ sign to most of them.
On the other hand, you dont have the same reputation in training in the charter/small airlines after you finish flight school.

[minimum_wage]

Lilflyboy, You obviusly don't fly for an airline.

Massey doesn't have a high reputation with some check and training staff in my airline. Some people I have flown with from there seem to think they are a cut above the rest because they came from Massey, and are far from it I assure you.
However that is not the case for all students of Massey.

On the subject fo CTC v Massey. My two cents worth...
I would have to support haughtney1's general view on all this, (though I am far less experienced in my career). But have had exposure to NZ and UK industries.

It seems to me all training providers that put through large numbers of students are going to be labelled sausage factories to some extent. It is then the quality of sausage that matters.
CTC focuses their training from day one for multi crew ops with the goal of putting guys into the RHS of a jet for their UK clients (some NZ guys I know but same training), whereas Massey offers a degree (that has no advantage in getting an airline job) with the purpose of training someone to a CPL standard to send them out there to instruct or to GA with the goal of getting an airline job.
CTC have been very successful in achieving this and I have friends who have been through the course and are with UK locos that have had no problems whatsoever.
I also have friends that have been through Massey that hold Captain/First Officer postions across the Air NZ group and are no less skilled for their early training history, possibly due to their longer route to an airline.


There will always be the debate you can't teach the experience instructing/GA will offer. End of the day it's supply vs demand and things are (or at least have been) different in NZ to the UK.
Personally I believe initially with lower hours the added experience can be advantageous, but when you have been around a while and have absorbed knowledge from experienced skippers and seen many things, there is no difference. Alternatively with GA/instructing you will need to unlearn some bad habits for multi crew operations.

[FGC]

It would be interesting to find out the average student loan debt Massey students rack up after 3 or 4 years. I know a couple of people with well over $100k. To me it seems an expensive and time consuming way to get a commercial licence.

If you are intent on getting a degree, I'd rather do a B.Com or something more practical. Better yet, do a trade. Earn while you learn, and you'll always have something to fall back on should your aviation career turn to sh#t.

[Lindstrim]

One thing to ask arround about is that they as far as I'm aware, don't do the ASL exams. You do a massey equivilent exam, so that if you do decide to leave massey before gaining your CPL you will have to resit all your CPL exams again.

[pprun]

If some one has to re enrol into paper because they fail the flying or theory component. They will make you enrol into another semester and make you do the paper from next semester while you pass the failed subject. At that time they will make you pay fee for theory as well as practicum even though you are not doing flying from that semester.


lets say you failed one sem one paper. They will make you do that failed sem one paper and at the same time will enrol you into sem two papers and make you pay whole fee for that second semester( i.e flying and theory). The BIGGEST trap here is. If you can not somehow pass that paper from sem one your all the money that you paid for flying for second semster will be gone.

One of student passsed everything apart from one flight test. At the mean time he has to do one theory paper again as he failed the flight test and that flight test was part of the paper. At the mean time he was allowed to enrol into second semester. i.e he do other papers for second semester and and paid his 4 thousand for theory and about 15 to 20 thousand for flying. He passed all the second semster paper but he failed his test again and he lost his 15- 20 thousand.
The TRAP was he lost all that 20 thousand dollar even though he did not use any of them. why? because he was still doing semester one flying.

It is known that there are so many who have fallen under this trap. I know many students who has spend 50 - 60k just to get ppl at Massey. Although its training are professional there is a great trap set up and you will not know it until you fall into one. so before you go make sure you know what you are enrolling in.

[pprun]

True that you do not do ASL exams. ASL exams are harder than Massey. Why? because for many Massey exam you get hints and on revesion day at times you will pretty much get the whole exam question ( they wont make it 100% obvious but you will know it. or else how will most class get 85 to 90%? Ask this to any one who has been through Massey system and they will be able to tell you. compared to ASL exam you have to go through each and everything in the syallabus. As exams are made by Massey they will ensure whatever is taught in the class will be in the exam. For some paper Massey will even give you sample of question and funny enough many of it it will be in the exam. compare to ASL you will not even have a clue of even one question.

[Massey058]

Odd, I always found the ASL exams much harder than the Massey ones. Maybe things have changed?

[XTurb]

ASL exams are. Isn't that what pprun has just intimated?

[lilflyboy262]

ASL exams are much harder... and an english exam to boot!


@Minimum wage, I wasn't implying that the people from Massey were held in high regard by the airlines, in fact far from it.
Pretty the only people in NZ that believe that Massey pilots are great, are the massey pilots...

[pprun]

yes it is true ASL papers are much more harder. Sooner or later CAA will find out about the Masseys system and they will be busted. when CAA comes for audit at school, every one( CFI and other related staffs) looks so professional and they pretend that some inspectors are coming to check them up. If you get 10 random students who have got CPL from Massey and 10 random students from other flying school who has CPL from flying club. I will be surprised if all 10 Massey can pass ASL exam . May be they don't know that ASL candidates do not get any hints for their test. They( Massey students) believe that their exam papers are harder than ASL, Why? Because they have to write short answer instead of multi choice.
In some exams they get 10 short answers and you can even ask those 10 questions to your ex friends and the question will be 100% same. Is Massey exam still harder when you know what will be in exams?
Masseys exam are truly flawed and designed for student to pass it giving hints and even giving students to see exam papers after exam. They will say it is safety issue and they have to notify student's mistakes . What is the point of kdr then? I wonder when ASL will let you go through your exam paper after you finish your exam. NEVER.

Don't think Massey's exams are any harder than the ASL exam. They might have printed out AC 61-5. They dont even teach all of it and what they teach will be in the exam. lucky you guys. lol
I wonder when ASL is going to give hints to it's candidate .
There are great expereinced teachers though. You got to admire their knowledge and skills.

[mattyj]

Wow..that's a searing indictment ..is that true? Can Anyone else back that up?

[motley flight crue]

As an ex Massey student I can say at least my English is better than the last few posts. Retards.......

[27/09]

Wow..that's a searing indictment ..is that true

I wouldn't be surprised if all that pprun has posted is true.

Massey have what is known as "equivalence" in other words they have their own in house exams and flight testing which is in their eyes the same as or better than what is required in part 61. I think most in the industry, Massey excluded, don't believe this at all. It was a very hot topic within the aviation training community when this was granted to them.

Equivalence should never have been granted, I don't know what CAA were smoking at the time, they certainly got sold a con job by Massey. I'm not sure it would be granted today but once the approval has been granted it's very hard to withdraw it. I'll bet Massey's QA system and paper work is very smick, no matter the standard of the exams or flight tests there'll never be anything wrong with the paper work, therefore never a reason to revoke the approval.

MotleyAs an ex Massey student I can say at least my English is better than the last few posts. Retards.......

I was going to pass comment on how great Massey think they are as a flight school, legends in their own little world, and how this arrogance comes out in some of their graduates. I didn't need to, you did it for me.

By the way level 4 English is all that's needed to to be able to operate internationally. While pprun's English isn't perfect I was able to understand his or her point very well.

[pprun]

Motley. You are one fine example of how arrogant are some student pilot at Massey. I am well aware of few friends who went to Massey and they are fine representitive of their school. I am referring to people like you who are the liability to school not an asset. Truth hurts to you, doesn't it? I hope you are not flying an airines with this attitude of yours. Even if you are, belive me you won't be there for long. I thought when you went to flying school they teaught you basics of respecting people and and what airmanship is all about. Or was good airmanship to you is picking some one and criticize their english over the radio?????????

I did not realise Pprune is english exam centre. 27/09 who was able to understand the message well and 27/09 is right, you just need to get level 4 to fly. Stop being arrogant and pick up people on their english.

so true what 27/09 said. It is hard for CAA to find mistakes as they look so perfect in the books. Offcourse CAA would go by books and they will not even know any thing like this.

[motley flight crue]

I was in Massey more than 15 years ago. Once you leave Massey we're on our own like all of you. If we were as crap and dumb as you say, we wouldn't make it in the real world of aviation, would we. I need to achieve no more in my career really. If sitting around winging about ASL exams makes you happy, go for it. What I will say is my knowledge is better than most from all the other "stuff" I learn't in the degree. Regret going to NZ and Massey, no way, overseas companies like degrees. I have mine, do you guys? No. You do the bare minimum required. I like my CV with a BAv on it.

My point guys is do the exams, pass them then go out in GA and network, don't worry about who did what and where........

[pprun]

You were the first one commenting/ criticising about english. you might have made it to real world aviation. It doesnt mean a thing. There was a time Southwest did not accept Ace air force pilot with all A + grade. Why ? because Herbz Keller( CEO of Southwest) replied him he was being arrogant and mean to receptionist. See there is difference between getting respect from people and making it to real world being arrogant like that airforce pilot.
We were not winging about ASL exams. we were just telling the truth and every people in this forum has right to know the truth.
We were not discussin whether exams are relevent to indutry or not. offourse what you will study is relevant in industry.
Oh you have bachelor degree, lol . I am sorry look around and find out what does BAV with Hons means or postgraduate diploma means?
If you did not knew then I will be getting one and hold most of the licence you might hold already .Bachelor with Hons or postgrad diploma looks much nicer in CV. I am surprised how come people with attitude problem and being arrogant at other's english get hired in aviation industry.
Pilot are like the god just works in that part of the world not in European countries.

[pprun]

Motley "My point guys is do the exams, pass them then go out in GA and network, don't worry about who did what and where........ "

You are right Motley but every people has got rights to know the truth about exams. We are not comparing which is bettter or harder. We ar discussin just for the sake of knowing how things works at different place. You get tired of how some Massey student pilot think of others around the country.

[lilflyboy262]

Actually Motley, once the knowledge of the licence gets widespread, then people DO look down on it.
Just look at the FAA licence...

[Massey058]

Yikes the level of irony is reaching extremes is it not?

I can only say what I experienced some time ago and that has put me in good stead in my career. Working overseas I have been able to experience the training outcomes of many from different countries and different organisations.

The simple reality is that kiwi's trained in New Zealand (Massey or otherwise) hold their own in the international aviation marketplace because there is a good dose of common sense and practicality (English despite notable exceptions is a strong point). There are some discernible issues but medium-term it matters little where you train as there is a level of consistency by virtue of New Zealand's minuscule nature.

Am I proud of my education? I guess I am and I have had markers along they way with which to measure that. Am I disappointed at the petty bashing? Always, but what is new?

Aviation is a horrifically small world.

Discernible issues for me? Radio calls - shocked and appalled I have been and I am sorry Pprun to single you out but if you demonstrate a poor level of written English, spelling and grammar then you may well be unlikely to be able to make precise and accurate radio calls and that really does do my head in.

[pprun]

Massey 058" Radio calls - shocked and appalled I have been and I am sorry Pprun to single you out but if you demonstrate a poor level of written English, spelling and grammar then you may well be unlikely to be able to make precise and accurate radio calls and that really does do my head in".

I see your point Massey 058. Isn't that why ICAO has made english proficency test compulsary? I am sure all the pilots out there have atleast level 5 0r 6. FRTO is standard phrasology you dont have grammer and all involve in there. For some english is not their mother tounge and it doesn't mean that they are not being precise and inaccurate on purpose. Fying is not all about speaking english accurately( although every one should).
CAA and ICAO should be the judge to decide the level of english that every crew needs to have, not us.

[Jagdfalke]

I disagree with pprun. I didn't find the ASL exams any more difficult than the Massey version.

To clarify - i achieved all of my licenses and ratings outside of Massey. After some time instructing i went to Massey to complete a Bachelor of Aviation Management (only 2 years with cross crediting), that is a management, not flying degree. Some of the paper on my schedule cross over with the papers on the Air Transport Pilot degree. While i have only done a couple of the ASL equivalent papers, i honestly found them more difficult.

ASL exams required i only learn the bare necessary material to pass the exam. This is often as simple as reading the appropriate book.

The Massey paper included assignments in addition to the exam. As with any university paper i was required to perform my own in-depth research about particular topics and write academic essays. Also, the Massey exam wasn't just a bunch of multi-guess (which we all know is more often a test of reading comprehension) as the ASL exams are.

Again i can only speak for a couple of papers as i am not doing the ATP degree, but in my experience i have found the Massey stuff very good.

[pprun]

Jagdfalke
We are not referring to Bachelor of aviation management degree. It is totally different scenario. You are right you have to do indepth research for university exams, you are not going to get degree just based on your ASL credit. Have you even seen Massey's version of ASL exam? Do not refer to Massey's university content and assignment. It is nothing to do with ASL. Ask to people who have been through system i.e who have done their exams. Managment degree which you did hardly do any papers from ATP major. Tell me apart from one paper that both managment and ATP students have to do. Just one compulsary paper right?
When you pass CPL ASL exam you are doing equivalent of level 4-5. Massey ( management degree) offcourse will be harder compared to what you did as ASL( Level 4) as bachelors degree is level 7. You have to do indepth resarch and assignment to get that level 7.

So your comment of ("I disagree with pprun. I didn't find the ASL exams any more difficult than the Massey version") is invalid. Firstly, you haven't done both exams. Secondly, you are doing bachelor degree( level 7) not diploma so you have to make more effort. Offcourse exams will be indepth as you are getting bachelor degree. Thirdly you are comparing ASL exam with university exam.


The assignment you are referring to is to pass the university content and is nothing to do with the ASL exam. Well you haven't done any Massey's equivalent of an ASL exam so you wouldn't know. They do have multi choice for various papers too. Were you aware of that?
Massey offer the good degree thats why there are 100 plus students enrolled in the degree and many are doing Postgrad and Hons.

[27/09]

Massey058Discernible issues for me? Radio calls - shocked and appalled I have been and I am sorry Pprun to single you out but if you demonstrate a poor level of written English, spelling and grammar then you may well be unlikely to be able to make precise and accurate radio calls and that really does do my head in.

Basing someone's ability to communicate on the radio by how they may write is a big call and grossly unfair.

I have several pilot friends where English is their second language, their written English can a be a little quirky at times, however I know they have at least level 4 in English proficiency and most likely level 6. I've never had problems understanding what they say.

I don't even have level 4, can you tell that from what I write?

[Massey058]

I have never done an English Proficiency test and that wasn't quite the point I was getting at but you carry on.

[27/09]

I have never done an English Proficiency test and that wasn't quite the point I was getting at but you carry on. ??? :confused:

[ZKSUJ]

All this talk about who is better, or which is harder. Can't everybody see that certain aspects of ASL/Massey have their pros and cons.

ASL is multi choice. So they have questions which can trip a student up, some questions may indeed have 2 right answers, but 1 may be 'more right' than the other. This encourages a deeper grasp of a question and may not be as black and white in some cases compared to short answer questions, especially for people who are not native english speakers.

Massey is a mix of multichoice, short and long answer. Now with the short/long answer questions. If a student doesn't know a question, they wont know it fullstop and hence will not get a mark. Yes these may be repetitive at times, but at least the answer is not in front of the student as such. Where as in Multi choice there is still the 1/4 chance of 'educated guessing' and getting an answer correct.

As for the argument of repetition of questions goes. It happens in both Massey and ASL. I know people who have sat both types of exams and have had access to a question bank for them in each case. So if students can do that, we can't just blame massey for being the only one with predictable questions now can we.

How many here have sat both Massey & ASL exams at PPL,CPL and ATPL level? I presume very few so unless someone can actually point out which is easier no one will really know.

At the end of the day, I don't know which is harder and I'll be the first to admit that. But we have to remember that weather you agree with the equivilence agreement or not, a massey CPL is the same as a normal one, it is not worth anything more nor anything less. Both provide you with the same lisence to do the same work, which in NZ means that you will earn more at Burger King than at your first flying job.

Yea people keep going on about massey guys being arrogant pricks (As has been mentioned numerous times on this thread). I know few massey guys (or ex-massey guys) that think they are God's gift to God himself, but in saying that I know some non massey guys with the same attitude. I also know both massey and non-massey guys with their head screwed on and are hard working etc etc...

High time people realise that where ever you train, you did a CPL with 200+ hours, which is really nothing in terms of experience. You're gonna screw things up, make mistakes, have a few near brushes with death, work for dirt cheap, learn things the hard way, work 2 jobs to make ends meet, meet some good guys, and meet some ass-wipes. Everyone goes through the same **** weather you sat massey exams and trained at massey, or did ASL exams at an aeroclub. Same lisence = Same ****.

So I hope people stop making this into a competition of who is better and who had it harder. Because in the grand scheme of things, you get your lisence and really, who cares.

[knox]

All the ATPL theory is complete along with a BGT rating (which must be activated with 3 starts).

Sorry for the thread drift but I have heard mention of this but have never come across the rule part that stipulates this. Would be interested to see it.

[27/09]

Quote:
Sorry for the thread drift but I have heard mention of this but have never come across the rule part that stipulates this. Would be interested to see it.

I haven't seen it written recently but I think Masasey058 might be correct.

It certainly used to be a requirement to do three starts. The exam was a theory credit only, there was a practical component as well, which is usually completed during the type rating on the aircraft. There were some turbine operators offering the practical component a few years back, though I must admit I haven't seen any adverts for this of recent times.

[knox]

When I did my bgt we had a computer program that simulated the starting of turbine engine ie. hot/hung starts etc and were told nothing of a practical component, maybe there is a log book sticker that I'm unaware of too?