Perth/Scone Instrument Approach Procedure

[Stratus Fractus]

Good Evening.
Flying overhead Perth airfield one day I was warned of traffic outbound in the procedure, and also vaguely remember hearing about a procedure that is / was used there. Can anyone tell me what the procedure is?
Many Thanks,
SF.

[Captain Jock]

There is an unofficial procedure here used only in VMC. It is based on the PTH VOR. If my memory serves me correctly it is a non precision approach which goes outbound on 030R with a right turn to intercept the final approach track for Runway 21. It is only used for practice purposes.

[Stratus Fractus]

Catain Jock,
Thanks for the info. I am a bit dissapointed though, I thought it might be usefull sometimes, but seems to just be an exercise for the IR students.
Cheers
SF.

[IO540]

It's probably a perfectly good procedure but is "unpublished" due to lack of ATC or whatever technicality.

The UK is full of such procedures. The locals tend to know them.

[Scottishflyer182]

Hi SF,

I fly out of perth and can confirm that there is a local procedure used mainly for training. I have yet to use it for real, Dundee is only 10 miles NW so in the event of a let down. Dundee is the place to go with a ILS and excellent ATC . Unless weather is really poor its possbile to fly low level from Dundee to Perth.

If you would like a copy of this local procedure for your informtion I would be happy oblige.

Cheers

Scottish Flyer.

[Timothy]

Dundee is only 10 miles NWnot mention 12nm E, so you have a choice of Dundees.

IME Dundee ATC gets quite exercised by aircraft approaching Perth in less than perfect conditions, so you can expect a Dundee ATCO on the phone exceeding his authority and knowledge if you go there under IFR.

[Stratus Fractus]

Good Morning,
Actually I would usually be on my way into Dundee anyway having used PTH VOR as a tracking aid over a cloud layer. I am aware of the procedures at Dundee but as I remember they all require DME, often start at the hold for which an NDB is required and of course there is the ILS. These are all luxuries and not all the aircraft I fly are suitably equipped. I was hoping for a timed VOR let down to a suitably high MDA just to get through the overcast in a controlled manner.
Scottish Flyer 182 I would appreciate a copy of the procedure if you can PM it or whatever.
Cheers
SF

[Scottishflyer182]

Hi Timothy,

Now that brought a nice smile to my face.

Ahhhh one day you'll be old like me almost (49) and get your right and left, up or down, east or west mixed up. But hopefully SF got the message. :O

I must come up to England some time a see what's it like there.:ugh:

SF

[goatface]

[/QUOTE]I fly out of perth and can confirm that there is a local procedure used mainly for training. I have yet to use it for real, Dundee is only 10 miles NW so in the event of a let down.[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE]It's probably a perfectly good procedure but is "unpublished" due to lack of ATC or whatever technicality.QUOTE]

No, it's a perfectly dangerous procedure precisely because there is no one to regulate who flys it and when they fly it.
In the UKAIP it clearly states that this is an en route nav aid only and the VOR is owned and operated by NATS, they are the only people who regulate when it is available.

If anyone is admitting that it is used for IMC training or any sort of approach at Perth they are lending themselves to a whole heap of much deserved trouble.

In the near future most NATS en route VORs are to be withdrawn and replaced with reporting points, NEW became NATEB recently, more to follow.

[IO540]

In the UKAIP it clearly states that this is an en route nav aid only and the VOR is owned and operated by NATS, they are the only people who regulate when it is available.

Well I never knew NATS regulate when a VOR may be used :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

If anyone is admitting that it is used for IMC training or any sort of approach at Perth they are lending themselves to a whole heap of much deserved trouble.

and the ANO reference for that gem of authoritative information is precisely .......... where?

In the near future most NATS en route VORs are to be withdrawn and replaced with reporting points, NEW became NATEB recently, more to follow.

Gosh, Goatface, you really do have an inside track on the future. Perhaps you can share the "near future" timetable with us all?

Of course these "reporting points" have top secret coordinates which don't exist in any GPS database ;)

[NorthSouth]

goatface:If anyone is admitting that it is used for IMC training or any sort of approach at Perth they are lending themselves to a whole heap of much deserved troubleThere is absolutely nothing wrong with (a) flying the procedure in VMC and (b) using any navaid as a means to let down to the MSA for the area in an attempt to cloud-break.
NS

[niknak]

I think the points being made were:

1) There is no published procedure at Perth for the VOR Approach - such approaches are usually constructed by experts within the CAA who more often than not very experienced pilots and/or ATCOs, who study every possible factor to ensure it's as safe as possible.
Given what's been said it's perfectly possible that someone at Perth has taken the time to construct a procedure of sorts, but it is clearly open interpretation by anyone as opposed to following an official chart.

2) NATS, as owners of the VOR, can switch it off at any time without notice, if that happened during an unofficial approach, well - some could cope, some might not.

3) Who else is flying the approach when you are? Naturally, good airmanship dictates that any pilot flying an instrument approach would make the appropriate R/T calls, but the unexpected does and has happened.

4) If a pilot "flying the approach" had a mishap, would they be covered by their insurance? Probably not.

5) Does anyone here fly instrument approaches purely by using a reporting point instead of a Nav Aid? (with regard to the replacement of VORs with reporting points).

I genuinely think that if the owners at Perth approach the CAA with regard to constructing an instrument approach utilising the VOR, they'd get a constructive response.
Clearly there'd be a small cost involved and it probably would be restricted to those given CAA delegated approval by Perth, but it not much for knowing that what your doing is as safe as it can be.

[IO540]

5) Does anyone here fly instrument approaches purely by using a reporting point instead of a Nav Aid?

Yes, it's called a GPS Approach ;)

There is a little aviation backwater about 3000nm W of here, not particularly significant since Columbus stumbled across it using some dodgy dead reckoning, but worth mentioning in this context because they have flown over a million such approaches and, hey, the place isn't completely littered with aircraft wreckage so maybe, just maybe, the morally and intellectually superior Eurocrats might pop over and see how these people are doing it.

I mean, they even have airports with NO TOWER i.e. NOBODY THERE and they have people flying instrument approaches!! Horror!!

:)

BTW, I do like the idea of NATS turning off a VOR right in the middle of me flying a VOR approach. I doubt I would even notice because, like most smart pilots, I would be flying it with a .................................. GPS :ok:

Let's face it, how many people would notice if an NDB got turned off in the middle of an approach? There is no valid flag; the needle points all over the place anyway, and anyway most smart pilots fly NDB approaches with a .................... GPS too :ok:

But more seriously, it takes only the most basic due diligence (called "looking on a map") to work out how one could use a navaid (or GPS) to let oneself down to some reasonable MDH, say 700ft. 200ft is something quite different.

[dont overfil]

Yes cjboy, you are correct, and by CAAFU examiners.
This was a published proceedure when Perth had ATC.
DO.

[bookworm]

I genuinely think that if the owners at Perth approach the CAA with regard to constructing an instrument approach utilising the VOR, they'd get a constructive response.

Given that the CAA collects 5-figure fees for simply approving someone else's approach design, I'm not surprised the response would be constructive.

[Hawkerhunt]

confirming dont overfil's post, in the days when Perth had a commercial training school, with ATC,ILS,NDB, the training procedure flown today is actually the old published NDB approach, flown on the VOR instead.

In IMC, you can of course let down 'randomly', use your own plan, or use, for instance, Dundee's published approach on an ILS which is outside of CAS, using an ATC without radar.

Re. permission to use Navaids, I rmember approaching Perth many years ago before GPS, in poor viz, but VFR, just haze really, in the days of full ATC. On final approach, ATC called to say they couldn't see me, I replied I was overhead the outer marker, which just happened to be bleeping away in my headset. On landing I was called to the tower to be told, very agressively, that I was on a VFR approach, and had not been authorised to make use of any approach navaids, and they were considering reporting it to the CAA. I told them I would enjoy arguing my case.:ugh: Jobsworth vs common sense is a major problem in aviation.

[niknak]

From the perspective of both sides, I was just trying to help, oh well......:rolleyes::ugh:

[Stratus Fractus]

Hi All
So can anyone please provide me with the unofficial / no longer published instrument approach so I can fly it in VMC. As I will be PIC OCAS it will be nobody elses responsibility if I get it wrong and I understand it is not a legitimate approach etc etc...
SF.

[Hawkerhunt]

I still have the Aerads of the last published approaches for Perth, if you want to PM me, I can scan them and send them.

[Scottishflyer182]

Hi SF,

IM your email and I'll send you a scanned copy.

Cheers

SF.

[Stratus Fractus]

Hi Ppruners,

I have had a couple of people offer to send me the old plate via PM. Thanks for the help and the discussion!

Cheers
SF