Night qualification in USA?

[vancouv]

Just watched a documentary about the JFK plane crash, and they were discussing the fact that he didn't have an IR but was flying at night. What is the situation with night flying on an FAA license? Do they have the equivalent to our night qualification, or can you fly with just a vanilla PPL?

[BackPacker]

The vanilla FAA PPL includes the Night Rating (or is it a Qualification?) by default.

It's actually a problem for people from Alaska as it doesn't get legally night for several months of the year. Any PPLs gained in that period have a limitation "Day VFR only" until they've done the night hours once that's legally possible. Or something like that.

[vancouv]

My CFI told me it was a qualification as it doesn't require a flight test - it's based on experience only.

[Keygrip]

Each contry is different - so there's no correct answer.

I'm not sure that the FAA have either a night qualification or rating - as the vanilla flavour automagically includes night privileges - it's not something that is gained individually.

No idea about Canada.

UK used to have "ratings" (which meant they had to be kept current), now have "qualifications" (which don't - but aren't as valuable).

[Spoffo]

The FAA experience requirements for the Private ticket include at least 3 hours of dual night VFR including one cross country of at least 100 miles and at least 10 night T/Os and landings to a full stop. After that, night VFR is just one of the privileges of the license.

There's also a currency requirement: to carry passengers at night, you have to have made at least 3 night landings in the last 90 days.

That said, it's not unusual for a rental operator or flying club to require an instrument rating for intentional night flight.

[enq]

Interestingly, I am pretty sure (from both US instructors & reading the relevant FAR part 61 notes) that my FAA PPL issued under Part 61.75 on the basis of my JAR PPL does allow me to fly with passengers at night providing the currency requirements are met.

This is despite the fact that the UK PPL syllabus does not include night flying at all, let alone the 100 mi CC & 10 take offs & landings.

(Almost) needless to say, I'm not taking advantage of this loophole until I'm happy with my night flying skillset, which will certainly mean exceeding the FAA training requirements.

Regards all, enq.

[S-Works]

Interestingly, I am pretty sure (from both US instructors & reading the relevant FAR part 61 notes) that my FAA PPL issued under Part 61.75 on the basis of my JAR PPL does allow me to fly with passengers at night providing the currency requirements are met.

No it does not. Read the bit where it says:

"ALL limitations and restrictions on the United Kingdom Pilot Licence apply"

If you do not have a night qualification then you don't magically get one under a part 61.75.

Your UK licence requires an entry on page 3 that says "the privileges of this licence may be excercised at night" without it you are restricted to DAY/VFR and thus the paragraph above applies.

[julian_storey]

Interestingly, I am pretty sure (from both US instructors & reading the relevant FAR part 61 notes) that my FAA PPL issued under Part 61.75 on the basis of my JAR PPL does allow me to fly with passengers at night providing the currency requirements are met.

I'm FAIRLY sure that your 61.75 foreign based certificate only allows you to exercise your existing 'foreign' (ie. JAA) PPL privileges on 'N' reg. aeroplanes.

Thus it WOULD allow night flight you hold a JAA night qualification but wouldn't if you don't.

There are several well documented examples of people getting confused about privileges on a 61.75 certificate.

[enq]

Bose, Julian

I'm prepared to defer to your knowledge although it does conflict with the views of the US instructors that I've discussed this with (however it is seems to be an area that causes some confusion with many people).

Whilst it is an academic question for me it would be sensible to pin down the precise legalities of this, which I am happy to accept mean that the UK licence restrictions apply.

For me personally, the view of Orlando from the air at night is insufficient reward for the additional risks involved, but that is purely my preference.

Regards, enq.

[S-Works]

I'm prepared to defer to your knowledge although it does conflict with the views of the US instructors that I've discussed this with (however it is seems to be an area that causes some confusion with many people).

Most Instructors in the US would not know what a UK licence looked like if you slapped them in the face with it. The rules are very clear and a 61.75 confers no extra privileges to the underlying licence.

The underlying JAA licence requires 5 hours of training with an approved Instructor, 3 hours duel and 2 hours solo (for the pedants out there it does not have to be done solo, it can all be done dual) which includes a cross country navigation flight in order for your to gain the privilege to fly at night.

It is not a grey area at all.

Edit: To include the fact that 3 hours dual is required but remaining 2 hours can be dual or solo according to Instructors discretion. Just in case anyone thought I might be stating it was some sort of legal requirement for 3 hours dual and 2 hours solo.....

[enq]

Most Instructors in the US would not know what a UK licence looked like if you slapped them in the face with it.

Bose, you may be knowledgable on many subjects but I think if I trusted you on that assertion I would end up using an FAA ticket based on a surgically implanted foreign licence.

I think you're just trying to cause trouble now.:\

Regards, enq.

[tdbristol]

.. although - please correct me if I am wrong - but with an FAA IR added on to an 61.75 FAA PPL you can fly at night (as well as in IMC).

[julian_storey]

You CAN have an FAA IR added to a 61.75 certificate which then gives you full instrument privileges in an 'N' reg aircraft for as long as you meet the FAA instrument currency requirements AND keep the foreign licence on which your 61.75 certificate is based, current.

[S-Works]

You CAN have an FAA IR added to a 61.75 certificate which then gives you full instrument privileges in an 'N' reg aircraft for as long as you meet the FAA instrument currency requirements AND keep the foreign licence on which your 61.75 certificate is based, current.

But just to be clear adding an FAA IR to a 61.75 adds nothing to the underlying JAA Licence.

.. although - please correct me if I am wrong - but with an FAA IR added on to an 61.75 FAA PPL you can fly at night (as well as in IMC).

No, not unless you have a night qualification on the underlying licence.

My friend is in the US doing an FAA IR at the moment and just hit the hurdle of the night qualification. He has a JAA PPL with no night qualification and a 61.75 certificate that he was going to add the IR to while he built hours for an FAA CPL. As he did not have a JAA night qualification he could not do the IR and had to do an FAA PPL first which he did by doing the required night hours and cross country.

[Keygrip]

I'm 99.9% with bose-x and Julian on these comments.

As an aside, the .1% that I don't agree with is that there is not a 2 hour solo requirement for night qualification training under JAA.

I would agree that the average FAA instructor - and even FAA employed inspector - wouldn't know how to read a JAA licence or be able to check compliance with currency requirements.

I'd also agree that, unless your JAA licence has night qualification attached, you have no night privileges with your 61.75 licence "issued on the basis of" - even if you attached an instrument rating
"US test passed".

Don't forget that a lot of advanced ratings and qualifications are based on the assumption that you must already hold certain qualifications before you apply for others - so you couldn't have attained "B" unless you already had "A", therefore if someone was applying for "C" based on the fact that they had "B" (but had never qualified for "A") it opens up a complete can of worms.

Let say, fictional scenario: "A" is vanilla ICAO PPL (no night), gets "B", FAA PPL issued on the basis of, applies for "C", FAA instrument, based on the assumption that he holds an FAA PPL ("B"). If the night was a prerequisite of the FAA in order to be allowed to sit the I/R check ride then they would not qualify - which, having just re-read bose's last post, is exactly what he just said. :}

I rejected an ICAO licensed applicant for a UK CAA flight test a couple of years ago, based on the discovery that he had not completed training sufficient to qualify for the issue of a JAA night qualification. UK authorities came back and said that anyone holding an instrument rating was night authorised - but I pointed out that that authorisation was based on the assumption that a night qualification was a prerequisite of being able to attend the training course for the UK instrument rating.

[S-Works]

As an aside, the .1% that I don't agree with is that there is not a 2 hour solo requirement for night qualification training under JAA.

As a pedantic point maybe. The requirement is 3 hours dual, how the remaining 2 is done is a moot point but it is accepted as being done solo.
:p:D

[IO540]

I rejected an ICAO licensed applicant for a UK CAA flight test a couple of years ago, based on the discovery that he had not completed training sufficient to qualify for the issue of a JAA night qualification. UK authorities came back and said that anyone holding an instrument rating was night authorised - but I pointed out that that authorisation was based on the assumption that a night qualification was a prerequisite of being able to attend the training course for the UK instrument rating.That's an interesting one.... " anyone holding an instrument rating was night authorised"

All this means is that somewhere in ICAO-land, one can get an IR with less night training than is needed for the JAA NQ.

In the same way as one can get a JAA PPL/IR, and probably a JAA CPL/IR, with less night training than is needed for the plain simple FAA PPL.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The vanilla FAA PPL includes the Night Rating (or is it a Qualification?) by default.

It's actually a problem for people from Alaska as it doesn't get legally night for several months of the year. Any PPLs gained in that period have a limitation "Day VFR only" until they've done the night hours once that's legally possible. Or something like that.

All things are relative - I saw an FAA document some years ago which showed a target by which time they hoped to get at least 50% of the pilots flying in Alaska licenced!

G

[Keygrip]

I "think" you missed the point, IO.

The CAA staff examiner that told me that instrument rated pilots were night authorised was, very likely, basing that comment on the fact that they must have held a full NQ in order to be able to take the I/R which, unlike the night *rating* does not need to be kept current.

So, by default (in his thinking) anyone holding an IR must already be night qualified - but we can see from this 61.75 stuation how that might not be the case if somebody fell through the cracks in licensing.

It's certainly the current case that TO CARRY PASSENGERS at night you must have done one of your (three) take off and landings at night within the last ninety days....UNLESS you hold an instrument rating (in which case you don't need to).

bose - no, it's happening again. I aim for the minimum amount of time solo during a night qualification course. Maximise the training environment instead.

I used to teach from Liverpool and rather than doing a one hour cross country around the local area both dual and solo, I used to give them dual cross country from LPL to Birmingham International, land, park, coffee (I paid the coffee fees).

Trip both to and back from Brum was no navaids and no radar assistance, map and eyeball only.

A night introduction first, differences, weather etc; a session of spotting places in the dark that they would recognise in daylight, back to the airfield, I would orbit overhead (me flying) whilst they studied the layout and colours of surface lighting at the airfield (last 1000 feet all red, taxiway edge blue, runways white, centrelines green or white etc), then sufficient dual circuits until they could fly three consecutive safe ones with zero prompting.

One full hour of solo circuits (as it used to be mandated then) no matter how many more than the five were done.

Night two (or three) the dual cross country to Brum and back. Hard work. Certainly not 3hrs/2hrs.

[S-Works]

Hard work. Certainly not 3hrs/2hrs.

Each to their own I guess. I am just pointing out the minimum dual is 3hrs, after that it is down to the Instructor how they want to do the remaining 2. i prefer the last two to be a mix of them do some solo nav and then the final hour is taken up doing the five full stops.

[IO540]

It's certainly the current case that TO CARRY PASSENGERS at night you must have done one of your (three) take off and landings at night within the last ninety days....UNLESS you hold an instrument rating (in which case you don't need to).

True for JAA IR, not true for FAA IR which still needs the 3/90.

[englishal]

But just to be clear adding an FAA IR to a 61.75 adds nothing to the underlying JAA Licence.


Quote:
.. although - please correct me if I am wrong - but with an FAA IR added on to an 61.75 FAA PPL you can fly at night (as well as in IMC).

No, not unless you have a night qualification on the underlying licence.

My friend is in the US doing an FAA IR at the moment and just hit the hurdle of the night qualification. He has a JAA PPL with no night qualification and a 61.75 certificate that he was going to add the IR to while he built hours for an FAA CPL. As he did not have a JAA night qualification he could not do the IR and had to do an FAA PPL first which he did by doing the required night hours and cross country.
Actually when you pass a US IR they your FAA certificate is endorsed "US TEST PASSED". Because you cannot add the FAA IR without meeting ALL the requirements of the FAA PPL then you have to do 3 hrs at night. This then gives night privileges due to the US TEST PASSED. I never had a JAA NQ but did have FAA IR added to my 61.75 FAA certificate. Maybe I could only fly IFR at night ;)

[S-Works]

Whoopeeee!, you managed to bypass the system, back in the day..... Lucky you!!! Perhaps times have moved on and DPE's have become more switched on?

I can tell you that today, someone who tries to add an FAA IR to a 61.75 certificate who does not hold a night qualification on the underlying licence will not be able to do an IR until they either gain an NQ on the underlying licence or do a full FAA certificate.

Glad you got through though.

[tdbristol]

Bose-X, FYI, I don't think I was 'beating the system' as you imply, but last October when doing my FAA IR I did the night work as required for the FAA PPL (10 full stop landings + > 3 hours at night + >100nm XC). Both the flight school and the examiner required this to be done before I could take my IR test - they were insistent that I had to have done everything required for a FAA PPL (practical aspects, not the exam).

[englishal]

Bosey, you make me laugh :}

PS Please don't grass me up to the FAA will you?
Anyway, I am above all that now- have been for years, what with my all singing, all dancing FAA SE and ME CPL and IR ;)

PS FTR my experience was the same as the last poster. I actualy "failed" my IR first time due to NOT meeting the night experience requirements. Once I met it the examiner was happy and I passed.

[SNS3Guppy]

An FAA private pilot certificate includes night flying privileges. An instrument rating is not required to fly at night.

An FAA certificate extends privileges to the holder when operating within the FAA's jurisdiction. When operating in a foreign country, one is subject not only to the regulations pertaining to one's own certification (FAA, in this case), but also to those of the foreign country.

Interestingly, an FAA commercial certificate requires an instrument rating, or the holder is restricted to flights for hire to daylight, and within 50 nm. I had one of those myself for the first five years of my commercial career. I didn't hold an instrument rating (I was an ag pilot, and didn't need one). My certificate stated "Flights for hire at night and at distances greater than 50 nautical miles, prohibited."

I could fly at night all I wanted without the instrument rating...just not for hire. Were I to have taken that certificate to another country, however, the rules and regulations prescribed by the FAA would still have governed me. Additionally, the rules of the country in which I would be operating, would also govern me. If that country prohibited flight at night without an instrument rating, then I wouldn't be authorized to fly at night, period. The fact that in the US I could do so would be irrelevant.

[englishal]

I think you are missing the point....

The JAA licence doesn't allow someone to fly at night by defaut - you need to do a "night qualification" first. So someone who has an "FAA certificate based upon a JAA licence" can't by default fly at night as the FAA certificate is endorsed "All restrictions on the foreign licence apply".

What Bose and me are arguing about is that once I passed the US IR - "US TEST PASSED" this restriction disappeared as to do an FAA IR one must MEET ALL of the FAA PPL requirements - even if they have never passed an FAA PPL checkride. Who ever heard of someone who could fly IAW IFR but NOT at night.....

Anyway, what do I know...;)