Attention drawn to icing....again.

[Buzzerd]

FAA, NTSB, Feud over icing safety.

ABC News: FAA, NTSB Feud Over Icing Safety (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/WireStory?id=6911338&page=1)

[Dengue_Dude]

Quote:

Former NTSB Chairman Jim Hall said the regulatory process was "certainly broken for the people who lost their lives in Buffalo."

"Unfortunately, all you can think here is economic interests are trumping safety interests," he said.

Says it all - ENDEX

[lomapaseo]

It's easy to claim in hindsight too little too late

The NTSB board members are political appointees with little pressure to balance their opinions other than what plays best in the press.

On the other hand there are the competing resources that have to be expended to promulgate all their sounds good ideas.

Examples:

Safety Engineering resources to make sure the idea saves more lives than it costs when humans have to deal with it in service

Resources in labor to implement somethin in service

Downtime of the equipment while being refitted

resources in capital equipment

So the concept is to prioritize all the ideas from all sources not just those that were sent to the press by the NTSB. After that happens the ones with the most bang for the buck (saves the most lives vs their allocation of avaliable resources) get the resources to be developed and implemented first.

Often the safety engineering resources (not money) becomes the log jam because there are only so many of these engineers avaliable within the regulatory bodies as well as the manufacturers and if a rule change is also required there are even more folks who get into the act as well.

So I really don't support the throw off the sled words (economic intrests are trumping safety interests) that Mr Hall uses.

[Phil1980's]

I don't understand...I've only read these posts...Why would NTSB be bothered about the press...I thought all they want is safety...I thought airlines would be more bothered about publicity

[DC-ATE]

The NTSB board members are political appointees

And where do you think FAA people come from?

[AirRabbit]

Good question. The FAA Adminsistrator and Deputy Administrator are political appointees. The rest, from Associate Administrators on down to those "in the trenches," are generally those who have worked their way up from within those trenches.

To be fair, however, a good share of the NTSB staff are hard-working types with varying backgrounds - chosen for their particular jobs because of previous experience in a given field - very similar to the FAA trench-workers.

However, when one of these talented NTSB staffers point to a "probable cause" and make suggestions as to how that probable cause may be averted in the future ... be it additional training or writing a few words into the regulations - there is not a lot of background that goes into the "how" that would go into that specific recommendation. Whereas, when that recommendation gets to the trench-workers at the FAA, there is a huge amount of detail that has to be worked out - as hinted to by lomapaseo.

I am quite sure that the recommendations made by the Board are seriously considered by the FAA - and I would think that at least in some cases, having a recommendation from the Board may be seen as an assistance to getting something done that would otherwise be more difficult to do. However, my experience with bureaucracies tends to set off my "spidey sense" which tends to lead me to believe that at least some of the Board's recommendations are not logical, some, while logical, might be costly and not necessarily productive, and still others might be terribly costly and while perhaps may be nice to have in place IF the same situation were to arise again - but the odds of some things we've seen in aviation happening a second time are distinctly remote - e.g., what IS the likelihood of someone “gloming around” on the rudder pedals of a large transport airplane to the extent that they twist the tail off the airplane - for a second time? - may be so remote that it wouldn't be worth the time and expense involved.

Horses for courses... bureaucracies for bureacrats... and, hopefully, logic for logical people.

[Southernboy]

lomapaseo (http://www.pprune.org/members/48942-lomapaseo) says NTSB people are biased. I have read NTSB reports that are more outspoken against the industry norm & the FAA than any I've seen in the UK for example.

Look up their report on the Korean crash at Guam & see how they ram home the fact that they have written to the FAA, made recommendations about fatigue and over how many years. Look at the website & see how they display the status of Fatigue & other issues. They leave one in no doubt that they try everything within their power to get change and that they are unable to shift the FAA.

The CAA, FAA & too many regulators are in the grip of the industies commercial priorities and will not change unless something comes down from above - maybe this should be on Obama's hit list?

[lomapaseo]

Southernboy

lomapaseo says NTSB people are biased. I have read NTSB reports that are more outspoken against the industry norm & the FAA than any I've seen in the UK for example.

Look up their report on the Korean crash at Guam & see how they ram home the fact that they have written to the FAA, made recommendations about fatigue and over how many years. Look at the website & see how they display the status of Fatigue & other issues. They leave one in no doubt that they try everything within their power to get change and that they are unable to shift the FAA.

The CAA, FAA & too many regulators are in the grip of the industies commercial priorities and will not change unless something comes down from above - maybe this should be on Obama's hit list?



Use the freekin quote function or just express your own opinion. I prefer that you counter me using my exact words but for heaven sakes don't interpret them your way and then attribute them to me.


And I wasn't talking about reports from the staff, I was talking about recommendations from the board members.

there is a difference

[HarryMann]

The CAA, FAA & too many regulators are in the grip of the industies commercial priorities and will not change unless something comes down from above - maybe this should be on Obama's hit list?

Out of interest, what is the NTSB's proclamations, if any, on the need to radically improve cabin air quality...

as we seem to have an impasse between the equivalent bodies on this issue in the UK (until I suppose, an accident can be directly attributed to it - which may never happen)

[krujje]

However, my experience with bureaucracies tends to set off my "spidey sense" which tends to lead me to believe that at least some of the Board's recommendations are not logical, some, while logical, might be costly and not necessarily productive, and still others might be terribly costly and while perhaps may be nice to have in place IF the same situation were to arise again

I'm reminded of a particular NTSB recommendation on the Pinnacle RJ crash a couple of years ago:

For airplanes equipped with CF34-1 or CF34-3 engines, require manufacturers to perform high power, high altitude sudden engine shutdowns; determine the minimum airspeed required to maintain sufficient core rotation; and demonstrate that all methods of in-flight restart can be accomplished when this airspeed is maintained. (A-06-70)

It seems perferctly reasonable to require test pilots to reproduce the conditions which directly led to an accident in order to show that it won't happen... what's the definition of insanity again? repeating the same actions and expecting different results?

[woodpecker]

"Unfortunately, all you can think here is economic interests are trumping safety interests," he said

Safety 0 - Accountants 1.. Away win, three points.

(sorry to those who don't understand football points system in Europe)

[20driver]

The fact is flying has gotten safer and cheaper so the system seems to work. The NTSB and the FAA are a ying and yang and the end result is not bad.
The NTSB pushes an agenda that takes no account of economics or reality. No turbo props in the Northeast all winter, (great for pilot jobs). What the FAA will tell you is make flying cost more and more people drive and die in cars.
As for Mr Hall, after his pimping for Eygptair he is off the Christmas card list of most of his ex colleagues. Give the recent the information on this crash it is going to tough to hang it on the ice and Mr Hall seems to have slide down the totem pole.
The last time I looked the NTSB hit list included video cameras in the cockpit. Anyone care to go there?
20driver

[q100]

Ignore anything you hear from Jim Hall. He is now acting on behalf of the ambulance-chasing Nolan Law Firm, and seems to have no interest besides making the potential jury pool prejudiced against as many possible deep-pocketed defendants as possible. He does not speak for the NTSB, and should not be using his former NTSB credentials to make it seem like he is an impartial expert while he is in the business of suing anyone and everyone who might have to cough up when a plane crashes.

He's off my XMas list, too.

Oh, and by the way, I'd be shocked, extremely shocked, if 3407 actually crashed due to the effects of airframe icing, wing or tail.

[742]

I spent 12,000 hours flying turboprops in the Northeast, including Buffalo, and lived to tell the tale. In fact I don’t recall being scared that often. The only issue that I see is a bit too much class room theology and a bit too little respect for the real world.

As for the NTSB, I lost my respect for them when accidents become something “to be used”. And Mr. Hall was at the front of that mentality.

[Southernboy]

sorry chaps but there are no quote buttons on my page - there used to be - & if the system's changed I haven't figured out how it works yet.

"And I wasn't talking about reports from the staff, I was talking about recommendations from the board members.

there is a difference"

Point taken, no desire to misquote, but are reports & recommendations not officially from the board?