Jetstar announces domestic NZ operations

[Led Zeppelin]

A media release this morning is announcing that from mid this year, Jetstar will operate five domestic New Zealand routes with a fleet
of A320s.

The route schedule is as follows:

· Auckland – Christchurch* (6 times daily)
· Auckland – Wellington* (3 times daily)
· Auckland – Queenstown* (Daily)
· Christchurch – Wellington* (Daily)
· Christchurch – Queenstown* (Daily)

Qantas will cease operating its domestic New Zealand network on Tuesday 9 June 2009.

Jetconnect will concentrate on trans Tasman services with 737 NG's.

[denabol]

Wait there is more. Spotters say the A380s due in May will push a later model 744 onto the Auckland-LA route after being no longer required on the Sydney flights.

Bite of aggro on Plane Talking too.

Qantas ‘invades’ NZ with Jetstar - Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2009/02/17/qantas-invades-nz-with-jetstar/)

[CTOT ON]

Can someone explain to me how it is an "Invasion" by jetstar. This Plane talk idiot is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

Am I wrong to see this as a "rebranding" exercise of Qantas within NZ rather than an Invasion?

[zube]

If Jitconnict operate Trans Tasman with 737 NG's one would ask " where will these NG's come from?"

As QF shorthaul is being gradually replaced by Jetstar, and the mining industry in WA looking a little sick at present, QF may have some NG's surplus to requirements.

All those brand new QF Captains and F/O's trained up on the 737 in a burst of corporate enthusiasm may be surplus to requirements. Especially if they can be replaced by others across the Tasman on truck drivers wages.

Interesting times coming up.

[distracted cockroach]

It really surprised me that the Qantas pilot group sat back and let Jetconnect have the Tasman routes back in 2001/2. This is just a continuation of that...no-one is being "replaced by others across the Tasman on truck-driver's wages" Don't JC already do a lot of the trans-Tasman flights? Fleet replacement with NGs was known about months ago.
What concerns me is whether JC will now be overstaffed. No domestic flying, but a few more Tassies (mainly out of Auckland) could mean a pilot surplus. A lot of the guys there are former colleagues of mine. I'd hate to see them lose their jobs (again)
So now QF has 3 pilot groups in NZ...JC, Jetstar NZ and the Jetstar Aus CHC base. Gee, that makes sense!

[mrs nomer]

DC -

I would have thought this will affect the QF mainline 737 pilots more than anyone else. It seems that they may lose all trans Tasman flying. I wonder just how close we are to see QF mainline announce a surplus of pilots, especially as JQ Australia is continually increasing it's domestic operations.

If JetConnect has a surplus of pilots as a result of this restructure, I'm sure they would have first crack at the increasing number of JQ NZ jobs that this announcement implies. They will be very happy when they have to fork out over $30,000 for the pleasure of flying an A320.

Qantas is cleverly manipulating its domestic and NZ operation into a much lower cost base with the introduction of JQ NZ domestic and increased JetConnect Tasman operations.

AIPA may have a real industrial issue on it's hands if a worst case scenario emerges with Qantas pilots facing redundancies. I guess the way out is to transfer redundant pilots into Jetstar along the lines of the MOU.

What salary reduction will they have to suffer?

[Q300]

Pity about Rotorua losing the jet services, but otherwise, not a major thing really. Will be good for the places Jetstar is serving - more flights, more airlines, more competition, lower fares, etc.

[blow.n.gasket]

Q300Pity about Rotorua losing the jet services, but otherwise, not a major thing really. Will be good for the places Jetstar is serving - more flights, more airlines, more competition, lower fares, etc.


More flights, more airlines,lower fares, etc!

Cobblers!
Yes lower airfares better competition for awhile until the weakest succumb. Survival of the deepest pockets.
Same thing happened with deregulation in the States.
A flurry of new start ups, the incumbents slashed cost structures to match, a series of acquisitions and mergers, the weakest went to the wall and in the end you end up paying the same or more with less service to boot!
Gotta luv deregulation!:ugh:

[UH-1]

Here we go again. A little country who any expert will tell is capable of supporting 1 to 1 1/2 airlines has another arrive - although probably to replace the crap service QF has supplied for some years. Any one local should be up in arms. Only fly the main trunk and not the regionals. not a matter of reducing fares but a case of forcing them up on the regional routes. It would indeed be a more level playing field if Deathstar were forced to fly some regional routes as part of getting approval but I guess there is no chance of that! But then QF has never played that game.

[27/09]

I think the travelling public are waking up to the downsides of booking with someone like Qantas NZ or Pac Blue and now Jetstar. They don't have the capacity or the network.

Nearly everyone knows of issues that they or friends have had when a flight gets delayed or cancelled due weather or aircraft unserviceabilities and then being able to be re booked at a reasonable time. Stories of days lost at work etc are not uncommon.

The other issue of missing your connecting flight with another airline because they made you late. Not their problem you have another flight to catch.

Then you have Pac Blue who won't even refund your money if they cancel the flight on you.

A lot of people are getting gun shy of these carriers, I'm sure Jetstar will suffer as a result.

[slamer.]

Nothing more than a rebranding, and hardly a surprise.

embarrassing to see the media in a "flat spin" over the Jetstar announcment, makes me wonder what the kick-back.

[empacher48]

So.. here is NZ, with the population about the same as the greater Sydney Area, with THREE domestic airlines...

Fair enough our country is separated by a little bit of water between the islands, but do we have the population base to have all three survive? Or are the Aussies just using their NZ operations to wipe away their profits and reduce the tax bill?

[pigdriver]

What are all the jitconnect crews going to do for work??? Surely they wont need all the current pilots to fly the new schedule??? And being 737 drivers ( ie, no scarebus rating) cant just slip across to the new mob either??? Interesting times ahead again in enzed......

[Q300]

It will certainly lead to lower prices in the short term... Air NZ is already responding with temporary $28 fares to certain JQ domestic destinations. Check Grab a Seat and see for yourself.

But, it will only last until the market settles. And then, until one of them dies. Fact of the matter is, even our main trunk route cannot realistically support more than 2 airlines indefinitely but have them all be profitable on the route, with reasonable fares. Something has to give, and it will probably be one of the airlines.

NZ cannot support so many airlines - QF Jetconnect has slowly killed off its network and this finishes it entirely. Jetstar replaces some but not all of that network. Origin Pacific is dead. That leaves Air NZ and Pac Blue - one of whom is a government supported monopoly carrier and the other who is new to the domestic game.

You cannot seriously only do trunk routes and expect to stay around long in an oversaturated market. You need regionals to survive - and even then, Koru will kill you eventually.

Media reaction has been plain ridiculous. Leading story on the radio and the 6 o clock bulletins, plus God only knows how much internet coverage.

Will be nice to see a change from Jitconnict and their "schedule", but JQ is just lipstick on a pig. Not expecting it to be much better to be honest.

[B767MAD]

coincidence QF cut dom flying in NZ and Jetstar start?!

[pisstin broke]

Ummmmmm NO!

[pianokeys]

AirNZ will be sorry it disbanded Freedom Air

[c100driver]

Freedom was closed down because it was no longer cost competative with the main airline, and could not compete with the product that EK had on the Tasman at a lower price.

[Skystar320]

Zeal320 is freedom air, it was 'merged' with Air New Zealand on the A320's providing a valuable cost decrease in costs operating as a full yield airline under the Air New Zealand...

[Q300]

Er Zeal320 was the operating company that operated the A320s for both Air NZ and Freedom. Designed so that Air NZ crews would work for Freedom money - basically to save costs. With the Freedom brand having been dissolved, there was really no need for a separate company so Zeal320 is no longer (or will be soon).

Freedom was closed because there was no real need for a duplicate company. Freedom had also served its purpose - remember Freedom was a Mount Cook thingo designed to kill Kiwi.

By the way, everyone knows that Jetstar replacing Jetconnect was no coincidence - it was meant to be. Qantas was not doing well over in NZ really. There's not a lot of difference.

[pianokeys]

Granted Freedom was set up to get rid of Kiwi and was the leader and a very succesfull LCC in this part of the world.
I suggest that Zeal320 is no where near a LCC it is Air Nz in disguise with all the associated costs which are hidden.
We will see as time moves on. Jetstar will certainly give AirNz a run for there money.
AirNz have alienated Regional New Zealand by withdrawing of International services which they engineered by shutting down Freedom and increasing fares to a level above those from AKL/WLG/CHC, their excuse iwas competition from AKL/WLG/CHC from other carriers charging low fares. No wonder because they replaced Freedom with a full service model.
Jetstar is a full LCC model and works well.
I Know JetStar will no be serving Regional New Zealand but you can now drive from Regional centers and have a choice as in Australia and get discounted fares.

[distracted cockroach]

Was talking today to 2 businessmen who book and fly Qantas for NZ domestic flights (due to international QF relationship) They are NOT happy that flights they have booked in advance will now be operated by Jetstar. They have already experienced this with Jetstar taking over the CHC Tasman routes, and it wasn't a good experience for them.
Whilst Jetconnect wasn't especially profitable, they still had some business contracts and loyalty for being "full service". Now that is gone, they will probably lose their high yield business traffic to Air NZ...domestically and Internationally.
As for Freedom/Zeal...it is no more. The A320 operation AOC is being transferred back to Air NZ and the separate management team disbanded. It was never going to work as they took the (relatively) low cost Freedom operation, and changed all it's cheaper supplier contracts (ground handling/catering/engineering etc) over to the same ones as Air NZ! Only thing cheaper in the end was the Flight Attendants. Waste of money.
Air NZ think they can compete on the domestic and Tasman/Pacific routes with their current product...they don't need to go absolute lowest common denominator.
Personally I hope they are right.

[27/09]

Pianokeys

AirNz have alienated Regional New Zealand by withdrawing of International services which they engineered by shutting down Freedom and increasing fares to a level above those from AKL/WLG/CHC

Not sure where you got that gem from. There is the odd one ore two uninformed pratts making noises at the moment but to say that regional New Zealand has been alienated is stretching the truth.

you can now drive from Regional centers

You have always been able to drive. Nothings changed here, compared to OZ far more New Zealanders prefer to fly than drive so I don't see your comparision with OZ as being valid.

[pigdriver]

Whatever happened to the freedom pilots??? Did they keep cmds etc when they went back to Air NZ??? How did the intergration go with the 2 groups???

[quack]

here here 27/09, finally a sensible post

[waren9]

Not correct mate.

That Freedom was pulled from PMR, and the reduced/loss of Tasman flying out of HLZ and DUD is simply because the NZ public did not support it enough. The AirNZ group persevered with and subsequently lost a lot of money from these ports with what had in effect become "spoiler" flights to discourage other carriers. Freedom/Zeal management did a lot of lobbying and talking to the regional councils and business leaders for a long time with the "use it or lose it" message. I know they struggled long and hard the decision to pull out and possibly leave a gap for others.

Remember that Ozjet jumped at the chance to go to PMR. I dont think even one flight was made.

If you had checked the websites (NZ, SJ and others) prior to March last year, you would have seen that Freedom was often not that competitive compared to some of the fares available from the main centres.

Virtually all of Freedoms custom was very price sensitive holidaymakers. Due to Emerites and others, the number of empty seats crossing the Tasman has been staggering and something simply had to give.

There are quite a few other significant reasons also, but your assertions above are not quite right.

[capt paypacket]

Geez ZUBE!
Shall i resign my command now or should i wait?
I mean, i know Jetstar is going to save the world and all of that, but isn't a cheap kiwi pilot as much a threat to our Jetstar heroes as it is to QF?

[waren9]

Whatever happened to the freedom pilots??? Did they keep cmds etc when they went back to Air NZ??? How did the intergration go with the 2 groups???


1.Mostly they took jobs within AirNZ as S/O's or F/O's. Some buggered off.
2. No.
3. Depends who you ask. The answer to 2. above is some of it.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Geez ZUBE!
Shall i resign my command now or should i wait?
I mean, i know Jetstar is going to save the world and all of that, but isn't a cheap kiwi pilot as much a threat to our Jetstar heroes as it is to QF?

Bingo!!!!!!!

[pianokeys]

Well guys time will tell

[A SHAMBLES]

Air NZ will stay, after they destroy Pac blue and send them home. Jet star will operate against Air NZ, and both will survive. Jet connect will service the Tasman. Whats the big fuss, Apart from nobody earning enough money for what we do.:ugh:For those pilots that lose there job at JC, i hope you don't have to pay for a type rating on the airbus...this is the sort of S&^T we have to stand up and say no to..:mad:. A few topics in one post i know...but.

[Pedota]

Here's what is being reported in today's Airline Transport World - my emphasis in bold.


Qantas shifts NZ flying to Jetstar as it continues restructuring


Qantas Group will restructure its New Zealand and China networks as it strives to remain profitable, and CEO Alan Joyce denied speculation that the moves are a portent of things to come on its Australian operations.

From June 10, Qantas flights on New Zealand domestic routes will be taken over by its low-cost subsidiary Jetstar Airways. In addition, the Australian national carrier will quit its Sydney-Beijing (on April 17) and Melbourne-Shanghai (March 31) flights, flagging the weakness in China's economy. The restructure comes two weeks after Qantas Group reported a 65% plunge in its half-year profit to A$216 million ($140.5 million) (ATWOnline, Feb. 5).

The New Zealand changes are seen by some as the start of a trend that will see Jetstar replace the mainline on an increasing number of routes. Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation CEO Derek Sadubin told ATWOnline that, "Without a doubt, Jetstar will take over more Qantas routes. We have already seen evidence of this recently with the Adelaide to Cairns route and you will also see Jetstar operating more regional short-haul international routes."

Joyce told this website yesterday that Jetstar will "grow aggressively but in harmony" with Qantas. He said the Australian and New Zealand operations are not comparable and denied any wholesale takeover of Qantas Australian domestic trunk routes by Jetstar. "Australia is very different and we are making money [on Qantas routes] even in current times. Certainly there will be some more tweaks," he said.

The restructuring also includes the retirement of QF's eight 130-seat 737-300s/-400s, which will reduce capacity by an additional 1%, according to Joyce. Qantas still will operate flights between Australia and New Zealand, occasionally in competition with Jetstar, and will upgrade to new 737-800s with seatback IFE throughout. Jetstar's New Zealand network will comprise Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington and Queenstown. Rotorua no longer will be served.

Late last year, Qantas announced a series of cuts that effectively grounded 10 aircraft (ATWOnline, Nov. 26, 2008). "Instead of growing international routes by 5% we are contracting by 8%," Joyce said.

A Jetstar spokesperson said yesterday that with costs 40% below QF's, the subsidiary is in better shape to respond to market demands for lower fares in difficult economic times.

by Geoffrey Thomas

[Your Steak Is Ready]

The funny thing about this, is that while scum* pay peanuts to their NZ pilits, see the site for terms and conditions, the Qantas brand sinks and Darths plan comes to fore.

The rot is setting in over both sides of the Tasman and no body will be the better of it.

Pax Vobiscum.

[kiwilad]

Qantas pilots undercut by Jetstar Oz, Jetstar Oz being under cut shortly by Jetstar NZ. Crikey if you don't all work together the race is already won by management to slide the salary into the toilet!!!

[AnQrKa]

Wait until the troops figure out that this op in NZ is where the 787's will be going!!!!!

[slamer.]

The pot is calling the kettle black...:rolleyes:

[distracted cockroach]

Quote:
Whatever happened to the freedom pilots??? Did they keep cmds etc when they went back to Air NZ??? How did the intergration go with the 2 groups???

1.Mostly they took jobs within AirNZ as S/O's or F/O's. Some buggered off.
2. No.
3. Depends who you ask. The answer to 2. above is some of it.


Freedom pilots brokered a deal whereby they were integrated into Air NZ with positions according to seniority, meaning all Captains lost their commands BUT, they retained Airbus command salaries for a period of up to 6 years (by which time, who knows what will be going on!)
Some F/Os remained on the 'Bus on Air NZ terms and conditions, some took S/Os jobs (but on Airbus money)
Some took leave without pay (offered for up to 5 years) but very few actually "buggered off" ie resigned. In fact I can only think of one.
Overall, it was a surprisingly generous deal.

[pigdriver]

So if it was a reasonable deal, I cant imagine to many of them jumping to pornstar nz!!!! ?????

[Going Boeing]

Can anyone explain how Jetstar NZ can be cheaper than JitConnect (apart from the cost of the inflight service). The wages paid for all JitConnect staff , Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers, Ramp & Check-in staff etc all being pathetically low. Is Jetstar going to offer even less?

AnQrKa
Wait until the troops figure out that this op in NZ is where the 787's will be going!!!!!

You've used that bait to stir things up too many times - you won't get any bites

[framer]

Can anyone explain how Jetstar NZ can be cheaper than JitConnect I'm just guessing here;
1/ AirNZ would be charging JC top dollar for ground services
2/ JC have two classes instead of one
3/ Older aircraft requiring more maintenance
4/ Basic economies of scale WRT management and ops teams.
5/ No revenue (however small) from in flight and baggage service.

[ZQ146]

Wonder how Jetstar will cope over the winter months at ZQN with no RNP???
The new service could be NO service when the days have clouds in the sky.
Its bad enough now:confused:

[Shredder6]

after they destroy Pac blue and send them home

How do you suppose that Pac Blue will be destroyed?

It's a New Zealand company.


PB has a very low operating cost to start with and has obtained a specific part of the NZ domestic market. Air NZ has its share, as does JC and I suspect that Jetstar will obtain some of JC's domestic pax.

Will be interested to see how this plays out Trans Tassie as both JC and Jetstar compete against each other and 200 other airlines!!

[distracted cockroach]

Quote: "So if it was a reasonable deal, I cant imagine to many of them jumping to pornstar nz!!!! ?????"

I doubt you will see many ex-Freedom pilots at J*NZ. Maybe a couple of ex-Captains for whom the 4 stripes is more important than money and conditions, or a couple of F/Os who see it as a step into a quick command.
Personally, if you are more than 100 or so off the bottom of the list at Air NZ, you would want your head read to be bailing out. Long term is where it's at and who knows where J*NZ will be in 10 years time?
Of course, LWOP from Air NZ is NOT available for you to go to J*, Pac Blue or J*NZ, so it is a big call.
Whatever, it's all gamble....you roll the dice and you makes your choice!

[AnQrKa]

"You've used that bait to stir things up too many times - you won't get any bites"

It aint stirring mate.

[Dixons Cider]

Wonder how Jetstar will cope over the winter months at ZQN with no RNP???
The new service could be NO service when the days have clouds in the sky.
Its bad enough now

VFR down the gorge ill do it!

[Q300]

Pfffft... if that ain't stirring the pot, I don't know what is.

Air NZ had $4 flights on Grabaseat today, J* had $3 flights I think.

Air NZ has a history of destroying the domestic competition. Origin Pacific for example. I think Pacific Blue can make it though.

[DeltaT]

call has gone out to some AU J* Capts to fly for NZ J* temporarily.

[waren9]

"You've used that bait to stir things up too many times - you won't get any bites"

It aint stirring mate


I dont think its stirring either, mate.

Unless the JQ 787's have got the range for east coast Aussie to the USA, theres every chance NZ operation will be crewing it.

In fact, whether they have the range or not, theres every chance the NZ operation will be crewing it.

[Its the Pleats]

Just for info JQ has nearly finished the RNP process. This Queenstown flying will speed things along nicely. Full RNP from the start for sure.

[framer]

Wait until the troops figure out that this op in NZ is where the 787's will be going!!!!!

Five reasons why that could never happen;
1/ The 787 is a complex a/c and the JC guys haven't the skill/experience to operate them
2/ The 787 is not suited to the Tasman which is where JC operate
3/ The JC crew would want the exact same conditions as the mainline crew anyway.
4/It would be silly for QF to be the first to introduce the 787 onto the Tasman in case the customers are wary of it. Pax don't like new types.
5/ It must be illegal somehow for a company to purchase new aircraft and then just utilize them as they see fit.....surely.

I could go on but I think I've made my point.

[c100driver]

I don't think so. Jetstar NZ will have to modify their aircraft for full RNP operations not just the "RNP lite" approval they have from CASA. At this stage Air NZ is the only RNP AR approved A320 operator in the world. So they will have to go through the NZCAA certification like everyone else.

[mattyj]

5/ It must be illegal somehow for a company to purchase new aircraft and then just utilize them as they see fit.....surely.


...Wha..??!!:confused:

I could go on but I think I've made my point.

..I think you better keep going!

[Q300]

Sarcasm, mattyj mate.
Don't see how 787s could end up at JQ NZ or JC - Domestic and Tasman ops are not what the 787 is made for. It's too big and its performance qualities would be better elsewhere.

[Dunnybudgee]

Framer; "The 787 is a complex a/c and the JC guys haven't the skill/experience to operate them" :rolleyes:

or even better "passengers don't like new types". (Ummm nup - the reverse is true and plenty of market research to prove it, the richer airlines even advertise it!):yuk:

Mate are you serious? :} I wonder, do you have any EFIS jet experience?
If you can drive one of JC's B733's I'll bet you can drive a 787. IMHO (having flown 733's years ago and now PiC on a newer / bigger EFIS jets) the later the jet, the easier it gets, and having read allot of blurb and seen the cockpit of the 787 its looks STD post 777 Boeing to me.

Hope for your sake that was just a wind up, or are you really that ignorant? :bored:

[kiwi engineer12]

Don't see how 787s could end up at JQ NZ or JC - Domestic and Tasman ops are not what the 787 is made for. It's too big and its performance qualities would be better elsewhere

Bruce Buchanan has been quoted saying they are looking at having a 787 hub in NZ to serve the U.S, and maybe Asia as the A/C doesn't have the range to go Aus-US.

[SuperDooperEngineer]

kiwi engineer do u know what they paying there nz engineers??

[kiwi engineer12]

Not 100% sure, but I heard the CHC Jetstar LAME's were on 80-85k, and someone mentioned AKL would be closer to 90k. (all NZD)

Well short of Virgin Tech NZ mech LAME's (122k), and avio's (135k)

[Konev]

local paper here was crowing that J* has RNP and will not have the problems Qantas has.

will be highly amusing to see the local rag eat there words when J*s get diverted every second day if they can fly the RNP :O

[blow.n.gasket]

I think AnQrKa has hit the nail on the head and the likes of framer and Q300 are thinking like pilots not Management.
In this world of Globalization and the ever relenting quest by big business for productivity improvement anyting is possible.
I'd suggest a few people here google the Trans Tasman Mutual recognition Act in conjunction with the NZ Employment Relations Act 2000.
First up as a result of the TTMRA aircraft "based" in New Zealand are accepted as being Australian.
Secondly the NZ Employment Relations Act 2000 has many similarities with the Australian Workplace relations Act 1996, if you thought WorkChoices was bad wait until your forced to work in NZ under their Employment Relations Act, plus there is now a National government in power in NZ, so I wouldn't be surprised to see further empowerment to the relavent Employment Act.
Now that the Libs in Australia have been turfed out and their and big business' WorkChoices has been pole axed isn't it obvious that management will deploy assets where it's easiest to push for improvement in unit costs. I expect AnQrKa is correct in that you will see the 787 deployed out of NZ. I also expect you will see a ramping up of JetConnect services at Qantas Shorthaul's expense. That will just be the start.
Ladies and Gentlement this is the end game portion of the Dixon plan, hold on for a bumpy ride!
The future is bright ,the future is orange with fern leaves!:{

[ZQ146]

Have a look at ZQN mountain Scene paper on ZQN airport Thur 19th Feb
www.mountainscene.co.nz (http://www.mountainscene.co.nz).

"Cloud in the sky Skippy dont fly"

"Star in the sky where will we fly"

[slamer.]

Transtasman 'domestic' routes could cut fares 30pc - report

9:05AM Sunday Feb 22, 2009

SYDNEY - Transtasman flights are set to be reclassified as domestic routes, removing stringent immigration procedures and cutting fares by up to 30 per cent, according to an Australian website.
Quarantine, security and immigration issues have to be addressed to make the route a common border.
An Open Skies bilateral agreement is already in place, relaxing the rules for carriers flying between the two countries.
After two years of discussions, Australian and New Zealand customs are planning trials to clear passengers before they board flights between the countries.
Three Australian automated border processing "smartgate" kiosks were installed at Auckland International Airport last September to speed up entry into Australia.
Air New Zealand, Qantas, Jetstar and Pacific Blue believe the move could result in fares being cut by up to 30 per cent, the website said.

The trials will look at creating a clearance system similar to those used for passengers travelling from Canada into the United States and in Europe across European Union countries.
Once they are cleared at their point of origin passengers enter any port as a domestic visitor.

[Q300]

I was saying that the 787 did not make sense on trans Tasman routes. I did not even stop to consider that it might not be for Trans Tasman ops. Kiwi engineer later pointed this out. Interesting stuff.

[Tij2]

20 years ago a pilot of a Saab 340, new to NZ skys, said the same thing to me about his bucket of bolts.

[fourholes]

I would love to see the evidence that the 787 will not get East coast Aus-west coast USA. The 747 400er and 777er do it and this aircraft is meant to be ultra long haul..........i.e it should p*ss in. There will be a lot of cancelled orders if this is the case. personally I reckon the rumour is just that.:rolleyes:

[horserun]

So whats happening?
Does anyone know of boys/girls with Jetstar interviews coming up?

[trommel]

I heard the pay is not too flash compared to Australian conditions.

$70,000 NZ - 15,000 rating payback = $55,000 NZ for a Co-pilot

Dont think there is the same Australian superanuation scheme and very few allowances.

Captains and F/A's same modest pay, something to watch with the Tasman becoming a domestic sector? Jetstar NZ planes flying to AUZ and doing 3-4 days of domestic sectors and then comming home?

[virgindriver]

Jetstar NZ planes flying to AUZ and doing 3-4 days of domestic sectors and then comming home

I am thinking this will be the result too and Pac Blue might follow suit.

[terronnd]

Not after Air NZ buys Virgin.......................

[Dale Hardale]

Air NZ buying Virgin ?

I think there are still some bad memories over the last time NZ ventured into the purchasing of a major Australian carrier.

This time around, I don't think there's enough cash within the Air NZ coffers for an outright purchase. Can't see this current NZ government bailing them out again.

[horserun]

Terronnd its a nice idea mate:ok:
Air NZ would have a LCC again to compete with Jetstar.

I think Dale is right though. Its too risky, and all a bit close to home.

[Skystar320]

Doubtful AirNz will buy Virgin.... Can't even run the bleeding thing

[rescue 1]

Low wages too high a price for cheap airfares

17 February, 2009
Jetstar's low-wage business model is not welcome in New Zealand, says the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union.
The call follows Jetstar's announcement that it is replacing Qantas, an EPMU unionised company, without union consultation as well as reports by business analysts that the company plans to compete using lower staff costs.
EPMU national secretary Andrew Little says Jetstar's low-wage model is unacceptable in New Zealand.
"Jetstar may be offering low cost tickets but they will come at the price of lower wages for working Kiwis."
"As the biggest union in New Zealand's aviation industry we'll be making sure we make contact with Jetstar staff to let them know exactly what the industry standards are and to offer them the chance to negotiate through the EPMU.
"There's a lot of talk about Jetstar increasing competition in the industry but when it's a competition to lower wages it's one we can do without."
The EPMU represents more than four thousand aviation industry workers in New Zealand including Qantas ground staff.

Seems that at least one union is making a public stance on this...

[horserun]

Where is ALPA ( AKA air nz boys club) during this then?

[AN Flyer]

Not after Air NZ buys Virgin.......................

Probably not the best of ideas. I think enough blood has been spilt and lessons learnt for one lifetime.

JQ/DJ/NZ. Interesting times ahead for the NZ market. Given the cost base of the LCC's, I wish NZ well. :hmm:

[distracted cockroach]

Hey Horserun...you an ALPA member?
You a Union rep?
If not why not?
The Union is you (if you're a member)
If you're not happy with what's going on, pull finger and do something about it!
It's much less of an Air NZ club than it ued to be...just ask the Mt Cook and Air Nelson and Jetconnect guys (all of whose own ALPA pilots did most of the work but with valuable assistance from the ALPA organization)
You guys who grizzle about ALPA being an "Air NZ Union" piss me off. Only about half the members are employed by Air NZ mainline.

[horserun]

Im in ALPA, and have been for 10 years now.

Go to any ALPA meeting and compare how much time is spent talking about Air NZ, compared to everyone else!!!

Would be nice if ALPA made a similar statement to reinforce what the EPMU said.

[belowMDA]

While it may seem nicely idealistic to have ALPA or whomever say the rates are abysmal, it will be water off a ducks back to Jetstar if they have people lining up for jobs. I also think it is pretty easy to sit back and criticise someone for taking one of those jobs when you are safely employed in a higher paid one. I suspect the best course of action may end up being similar to the one the Jetconnect guys fought. By this I mean fight from the inside when you have a tad more bargaining power than as a prospective employee.

[distracted cockroach]

BMDA....exactly what I said at the beginning of the Jetstar NZ pay thread. There are plenty of precidents.....it's not the ideal way for it to happen but these are not ideal times.

[Split Flap]

Not an easy war to fight but if you read the latest ALPA presidents message (should be in your inbox today), at least ALPA and the two Aussie unions are not sitting on their hands.
The only way to enhance job opportunities and T&C's for EVERYBODY, is to work TOGETHER rather than bitch at each other.

[aerostatic]

News - Scene - Queenstown's Local Website (http://www.scene.co.nz/16813a1.page)

[pigdriver]

Just spoke to a mate who has been offered a contract with J*NZ. Capt is apparently NZ$130, F/O 65000. Hours are for 6o or 65 I think, and then an flying allowance of 120 per hour. 8 days off, 5 weeks leave and some kiwi super???? ( whatever that is....).Most months are around 75-80 hours, of which they are a mix of domestic and tasman runs.
Not sure how this compares to Pac Blue or Jitconnect??? etc. I think his start date (if he takes it??!!) is around june/july....

[60 & below]

Kiwi Super 1-2%
As of next year you will have to put in what the company puts in,
If you dont add to it the company doesent either.
:ok:Not so Super

[blow.n.gasket]

Choice Bro!:}

[Fruet Mich]

Never mind comparing these salaries to Jitconnect or PB, how about to Mt Cook or Air Nelson. It's an absolute insult! Anyone who takes this job is an absolute porn of the industry. Lets keep dragging our own industry down then we can all complain once we're all earning baggage loaders salaries.

Jetstar management are either ignorant or have very low IQ's?

Best of luck getting Visa's for the mexicans you plan to imigrate to NZ to fly these things. Better terms and conditions on a turbo props. What a joke!!

[framer]

Anyone who takes this job is an absolute porn of the industry.
:D That is very clever!...get it...jetstar....pornstar...:D

[puma pants]

A race to the bottom!!

[pointyendforward]

Puma, are they going to try and con you jokers to sign the new contract too? :-)

[Muff Hunter]

more info.....

day off pay flat rate $250 Capt and FO

no extra cash for working on annual leave

must extend flights to complete duties

8 days off per month

5 weeks leave

1% super

and this is the winner....a bonus of around $10000 for Capt and $6000 for FO's to be paid at the "company's discretion"

and there are many more disgusting clauses in the contract..

any one who accpets this crap deserves what they get...:yuk::yuk:

[horserun]

W**kers!!!!!

I have heard that the wheels are coming off their evil plan (thank God!)
No one in Jetstar is prepared to come across for the sh*t they are offering, as they had hoped.

[myturn]

Plenty of guys out there just waiting on start dates - J* will get this across the line no probs. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Not saying its right just saying its happening.:ugh:

[Flava Saver]

Yes, word is most guys are knocking this back. They are going back to the drawing board to re-hash, so anyone thinking of accepting, i'd reconsider. Anyone willing to accept this, well, more fool you. :rolleyes:

[ZK-NSN]

Hate to think what the ground staff and FA's will get then. Im sick to death of seeing that toolbag hughesy on the adverts. "All our aircraft have comfy leather seats" woo-f@#kin-hooo, so do most 172's.

Budget operators have been good to an extent because they have created jobs for pilots, but this time their just taking the piss.

[Led Zeppelin]

NSN

Love your last post - trouble is, your bloody right mate. Conditions are an absolute f@cking insult.:mad:

[Black Box]

Can always get a night job at a bar.

All Day Every Day Low Wages:=:=

['holic]

oh, the irony

[rockarpee]

Holic, the problem is that these posters don't see it, too funny:D

[Captain Sherm]

When Sherm was a younger pilot, if you were approaching 28 and hadn't yet been hired by a "major"....you were dead meat.

The then majors, AN Group, EWA, TN and Qantas had everything stitched up. Rigid seniority, all AFAP members, common terms and conditions. And as for cheap fares to encourage market growth......hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Time to command for the young Sherm was 15 years.

The world has changed and there are thousands more jobs than ever and waiting for command nowhere near such a misery. Many options. Some entry level, some wonderful, some sideways, some doomed, some a mistake, some much better than imagined, many overseas on shiny machines not on the Australian register.

Those who don't want the NZ jobs should simply not take them. End of story.

As an aside: I had a friend who once knocked back seniority number 12 at Fedex...."looked dodgy" (or some similar yank expression). So be it. Some win, some lose, smart guys learn and move on.

[pigdriver]

By the way, have heard they have had no dramas at all getting the required numbers. Guys from overseas, a few jetstar oz guys, as well as plenty of kiwis.......

[aulglarse]

From what I hear these conditions for AKL Command are approx 10k more than a current JQ F/O conditions at the moment-this is pathetic. Naturally in this industry the attraction of a job on a new shiny jet (A320/B787) may succumb to some.

For those considering this contract please consider joining a union first.

[propaganda]

The race is on to see who's T&C's reach the bottom first. Those airlines who exploit their primary asset must understand if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. AKL Zoo's primates may not want to pay $181.50 AUD for the Psychometric assessment, but some monkey will;).

[Grogbog]

It's a viscious cycle... If you try and take a stance and resist accepting such low T&C's then a hundred others accept and leave you miles behind.... Next thing those that took the sh1t offer have 1000hrs jet time or 1000hrs Jet command and can move on to bigger and better things while you're still waiting for conditions to improve.... It's lose - lose if you want to fly jets.

J* Management know it and will be able to fill the seats easily with those at the start of their airline careers, those looking for a quick command and those who've been in the sandpit and made the $$$ who now want a lifestyle.

It's better than GA and it beats working in an office or at McDonalds. And the remuneration is still better than most people will ever earn.....

It's been done before and it will be done again. They always get enough crews somehow:ugh::ugh::ugh:

And as some have stated here.... Oh, the irony of it all:p:p:p

[Fruet Mich]

If I were a J* pilot I'd be wary and consider getting together with your union to vito this so called offer to the mexicans. It will affect you blokes eventually as the domestic agreements transpire.

Interesting reading the comments of gaining 1000hrs then going offshore to make some decent money? Do you fellas wonder why most the guys ahead of you that have already done this earning the big bucks want to come home? Because they live in shyte holes ya numb nuts!! If you take this contract you're a fool. This is a great country but hard to live in on a baggage loaders salary!

I haven't spent 15 years of hard slog and economic hardship to be paid less than an ANZ long haul flight attendant. Insulting! Obviously the rich kids that had daddy pay for their careers don't give a toss about the future of aviation.

[rescue 1]

Thinks its too late to stop the Jetstar machines march to the frontline!

Jetstar Australia has introduced "Team Jetstar" for cabin crew (slicing T&C's), so I suspect that more changes accross the QF Group are not far away...

[Chocks Away]

Your attention please: www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,24/Itemid,85.html - Shiny Jet Syndrome

[puma pants]

Chocks, pretty much says it all.

[Fruet Mich]

How true chocks, We're our own worst enemy I'm afraid. To many Jimmies and the airline management know it.

Who'll fly their shinny new jets if we all said no until we're paid an airline pilots salary? No pilots, no big fat bonus. Simple really, but then there's Jimmy. AAaargh!:ugh:

[Iron Bar]

This can not be said often enough . . .


OH THE IRONY!!!! :mad:

[fourholes]

Viking.

Have you been reading this thread?:ugh: Man, what a Jimmy:yuk:

[fourholes]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,24/Itemid,85.html

Viking. From an earlier post

[horserun]

My name is Horserun and I suffer from SJS.....know me before you judge me!!!!:}:}


Im pretty cheap (just ask the Mrs) But Jetstar can get F**ked on this one!! It will be a cold day in hell before fork out $40K+ just to earn $70k

And if any of my mates sell out to those c**ts, your not coming to my boxing day party this year!!

[Mr. Hat]

Chocks away that is a truly entertaining article!

Unfortunately most pilots don't want to stay in GA or regionals. That’s just the way it is and the way it will always be. With $1 fares this has to be the only industry that is continually going backwards. And SJS is basically the reason this continues to happen. Each time an old carrier folds a new one opens up with more and more aggressive Terms and Conditions. It’s nearly a competition to see how low they can set the bar.

Jetstar, Tiger and V Australia will crew every one of their jets regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong. They are in the business of making money and if they can save a dollar on T&C's they will. And now with the meltdown they have the perfect storm for long term minimalist cost bases. Eventually those pilots that were around when conditions were good will eventually retire and the standard will just keep moving down.

I do wonder where the bottom is though. At what point do the people with SJS say "nah that’s f@rked no way!"?

What is the solution? I don't think there is one. I guess most people will keep job hopping in the chance that they eventually will land in something half decent that won’t fold.

I think that eventually to get a decent job eventually most will have to work abroad. US, NZ and Australia will be places people get experience and leave.
Mark my word that if VB fold (and i'm certainly hoping not) some outfit will open up offering those now unemployed a job on half of the VB Terms and Conditions.

[Fruet Mich]

So where are these A$#holes going to get pilots if we all don't let them drag the industry into the toilet? It's our industry, all of ours. If we don't accept the shyte contracts they will have to pay the required rate to fly their aircraft. You're right, they're in this to make money. Pretty friken hard if the aircraft are sitting on the ground. Lets all grow some balls and build our industry up not flush it down the toilet. As for the GA guys, thats aviation. Do your time and build some experience. We've all been there.

Don't sell yourselves out. For the sake of waiting a little longer for a good contract the industry will benefit.

[Mr. Hat]

Fruet, people are being hired my friend. Sim sessions are being booked.

The one opportunity there was for Aus pilots to stand up and say enough is a-f@rkingnough was from 2006 to mid 2008. Good luck trying to do that now. The VB guys had a crack and voted down the first one. The rest hmm well...

It'll be a time we'll talk about in years to come.

[Fruet Mich]

Well I'm afraid I have integrity and a belief in my career I worked so hard to create over the last 15years. If people want to spend $40k to earn $70k and ignore the economics then good luck. Salary sacrifice makes it closer to $55-$60k NZ, thats around $45k AUSD. Thats a crap return on investment wouldn't you all agree? Try and live in Auckland on that!! Good luck, very very hard. Pretty much back in GA. As I've said, It's our industry. We own it. We don't have aircraft that fly passengers around the world by themselves. WE FLY THEM. If we band together and don't fly them then we all earn more than McDonalds wages. The only winners here are the management laughing all the way to the bank.

J* quote market rates as remuneration. It's not market rates. Current market rates for an FO are

AirNZ A320 $107k
Pac Blue $91k
Jetconnect $89k

We are talking about 180 seat jet here not an ATR. It's a friken joke!

[Mr. Hat]

I agree - just tellin you what i see happening thats all.

[viking320]

Hi i read all you guys have written here.I lost my job on A320 due to the economic crisis.i was with a reputable airline as an FO training to be on left seat in 6 months.Have close to 2000 hrs.Now no job and a morgage to pay,family kids going to school. Also i was earning 108000US$ as FO working 70 hours a month .anything over get overtime till January. Now almost 2 months since last flight. i also work hard like many of you in the Flying school,charter ,joy flights etc.It took 11 years to get to an Airbus A320 was hard work to get there did not had the SJS .because it was a step by step progress .

Now all of a sudden after reaching in the cockpit with very good expereince I mean real flying expereince and the knowledge gained from last 15 years of flying and now not having the Job is tough.
and when Jetstar is taking pilots and paying what you said in the forum which comes to less than half what i was earning till few weeks back.

Choice is simple take it or leave it. i believe i have seen enough in the last two decades to make that decision if i ever apply to jetstar and they offer me a job.

in short everyones situation is different you cant single people out because they accepted an offer because as an Aviator i know what my responsibilities are and my expereince in the cockpit will be good for the money paying passengers because YOU AND I ALL OWE TO THE PEOPLE. I MEAN THE CUSTOMERS WHO PAY AND FLY KEEPS US IN THE JOBS.

so rather than all of us getting upset about things and thinking with out brains.try to find alternates as a TEAM.
good luck to you all
viking

[Fruet Mich]

Viking, i appreciate what you are saying and my heart goes out to you and your family and your situation. Have you ever worked in NZ? Do you know the cost of living etc? Do you also know what the average salary is in NZ? If you were to take this job with a mortgage and kids in school in NZ you would have to either get a second job or send your wife out to work. Don't all be shortsighted here. You would earn more money as a labourer on a building site.

Stick together people. We are professionals worth professional salaries.

If you want to work a second job to support your family and mortgage then take this Jet* job, It'll guarantee this, it'll keep distroying the pay and flushing our industry down the toilet. Then once the industry is back and booming in the States you can return home and leave us guys earning the shyte money. That'll solve everything won't it.

I'm not going to win this arguement, it's just friken wrong and gets my back up. I guess I'll be retired by the time it reaches rock bottom. Good luck to the new guys coming through.

[Neeewman]

For anyone whos interested. If I had stayed in in my old job on my old salary (which has increased) and used the 30,000 $A (36000nz) plus all my holiday and loss of income spent on endorsement training-and used that to by a house. even with the housing market the way it is now I would still be way in front.and have a house. whats more Auckland is outrageously expensive. Try saving for a house deposit on those conditions. I'd be hanging out at least until they are prepared to pay for the training.
-remember companys still reserve the right to fail your training- not a great scenario. Checks somehow seem to get harder when theres a recession and the industry is shrinking. If they want you to invest in yours and their futures they should give you shares:ok:
A good lawyer should be able to show you are investing capital into the company"s start up costs (you too PB boys)

[Flava Saver]

If anyone DOES sign on for this, i'll give em 3 months before they are up in arms whinging primarily about the coin and how expensive AKL is. I doub't you'll be getting any hearts bleeding for you from your fellow Oz based (and CHC) crew.

Read the fine print fella's, as you know what you've signed on for! :ugh:

[Angle of Attack]

I disagree as some have said that it's a vicious cycle re: terms and conditions. Life is what you make of it people, and if you go to those lesser conditions so be it! Personally I delayed my career progression to make more financially rewarding positions but as it seems many are not! 11 years for me to a jet and still don't regret a minute of it :ok:

[Follow the Follow Me]

Yes the NZD is low but I was paid 80,000 NZD this month. The figure included annual gratuity. I am an Airbus pilot.

I have never paid for an endorsement. I have always worked for well paid carriers. I deserve the coin frankly.

Because I have always worked for well paying carriers and not wasted money paying for endorsements I am wealthy. It is a nice place to be when amongst a generation of pilots who seem to do everything possible to compromise themselves financially.

[horserun]

FTFM....Who do you work for??

[Neeewman]

Just so you can appreciate the cost of living in Auckland-for any oz based operaters.
Kiwis add GST to food ,oz dont (12.5 %)and its x'ey already
Rent for anywhere inside of the gangsta ring is roughly the same as Sydney minus the beaches.
Mobile telephone costs are at least twice as high(insane)
power and gas are about twice as high
Fuel is at least 15% higher

pretty well every time you walk out the door -you will spend.
On the plus. everyone partys hard, the gals are great fun,the people are lovely and the fishing awesome. Don't expect to save and please find a way to enjoy wet windy weather.
Kiwi pilots are great, nice people (i understand why they have such great sailors now) and are used to flying in continuously wet, windy conditions with lots of fog,shear and terrain on pretty short sectors ( I still can't understand why they are paid less)
theres no airforce now either- sooner or later the cost of training willll have to improve the conditions. the average wage could not sustain a pilot training.

[waren9]

Find myself having to disagree with some of Neewmans post.

Yes, rent and property prices in AKL are crazy. However, it does have beaches. Infact, on both sides.

Fuel price difference is simply a fuction of how the govt taxes it and the relative strength of the currency, compared to the AU$. Tried buying diesel there mate? Its a lot cheaper. Again, the tax thing.

Disagree about utility prices. Cellphones cost more to run but not double.


...theres no airforce now either...


Simply false. What you may have meant to say is there is no strike wing. The airforce still trains pilots, albeit not many in the scheme of things. I hope youre right about the pay/conditions tho'!

[breakfastburrito]

It is a nice place to be when amongst a generation of pilots who seem to do everything possible to compromise themselves financially.Not truer words spoken on PPRuNE.

George Soros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros) made BILLIONS by tapping into the same psychology that those suffering SJS exhibit- Reflexivity.
Reflexivity asserts that prices do in fact influence the fundamentals and that these newly-influenced set of fundamentals then proceed to change expectations, thus influencing prices; the process continues in a self-reinforcing pattern. Because the pattern is self-reinforcing, markets tend towards disequilibrium. Sooner or later they reach a point where the sentiment is reversed and negative expectations become self-reinforcing in the downward direction, thereby explaining the familiar pattern of boom and bust cyclesSource Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_%28social_theory%29)

In a nutshell, as applied to the pilot market, reflexivity implies that wage declines cause both managers & pilots to expect further declines in the future. ie pilots are talking themselves into lower wages, all the managers have to do is stand by and agree (and pocket the difference as a bonus).

Agreeing to lower wages will lower your wages in the future.
Remember, this is not some abstract theoretical concept, this guy broke the Bank of England.

[horserun]

I am three steps ahead of the generation of trash that seems to be proliferating.

I am sure they will catch up eventually. Won't matter to me. I am wealthy because of my industry.

Well your obviously the man!

Go on tell us where you work. Help a brother out!!

I live in the generation of trash (sometimes its not all bad), and am trying to make my way through the bottle neck.

[sppearl]

Come on you lot stop bickering and apply for the jobs. Queenstown will make you feel Alive. On a good day, but mostly make you glad to still be alive. Then there's Wellington waiting to bite, Will miss the snack bags but not the $200.00 fine from Maf when you forget it's still in your nav bag. :eek:

[horserun]

Queenstown will make you feel Alive. On a good day, but mostly make you glad to still be alive

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.....So true!!!!

Your right though, If they just paid more though!!!!

[The Hill]

Correct me if I’m wrong but with Qantas replacing NZ domestic with Jokestar mean all of Qantas' business passengers no longer have a "choice" and will simply fly with Air NZ.

[Fruet Mich]

I was sitting next to a business traveller on Qantas the other night from AA to WN. Asked him what he thought and how it would affect him. He said he didn't give a toss. Currently travels on Qantas, ANZ and Pac Blue. As long as the schedule suited him and he got there on time. Not good if he has to cancel dozens of oppointments he spent most of the week organising just because his carrier of choice can't maintain an acceptable OTP. His other comment was that provided Qantas leave their lounges here with Jetstar he would travel on them. Air NewZealand already a low cost carirer domestically. I don't think there will be as many swing to ANZ as Rob Fyffe might be led to believe.

Have you seen the amount of travellers in suits travelling with Pac Blue lately? Heaps. One reason. They're always on time. New aeroplanes I guess? I'm thinking Jetstar will pee all over the current Jetconnect OTP with their shinny new jets flown by Jimmy.

[c100driver]

Always easy to fly on time with only three aircraft (unless one breaks down), no interline connections, no freight, little hold stowed baggage and almost no disabled pax. However if you miss the flight tough t*tty we owe you nothing!

Pilots being pilots always think full aircraft = making money. They never think yield!:ooh:

The suits might all be paying for it personally going to job interviews :D:D:D

[viking320]

Any info on the interviews are they still going on or have they finished.Anyone offered a job if so whats the offer like.How many are they taking in all. Capts, FOs.when will the operations start.

[Oxidant]

Mate, have you got the right to work in NZ?
If not, it doesn't matter......

[viking320]

I thought the company would take care of that????
any info on the intake ???

[snakeslugger]

OxidantMate, have you got the right to work in NZ?
If not, it doesn't matter......


I think you'll find if J* can't get the required experience from within AUS and NZ then our American mate may well have access to a visa downunder. Look at PB with a German and an American already flying for them, both of those guys are on work visa's, time will tell I guess?

[Howard Hughes]

Mate, have you got the right to work in NZ?

Come on the Kiwi's let anybody in!:E

[Oxidant]

This is straight from their website.
Otherwise e-mail them before you make plans.....
"[email protected]"


What are the minimum requirements to join Jetstar Airways?

The minimum requirements for selection as a pilot in Jetstar Airways are;

* Hold or be eligible to hold an Australian ATPL or New Zealand equivalent,
* Have passes in all Australian ATPL subjects or New Zealand equivalent,
* Hold, or be eligible to hold, an Australian Class 1 Multi-Engine Command Instrument Rating or New Zealand equivalent,
* Current Class 1 Medical Certificate,
* Hold, or be eligible to hold, relevant New Zealand Permanent Residency status or an Unrestricted Right to Work in New Zealand,
* Hold ICAO Level 6 English Language Proficiency
* Possess strong and effective team working competencies,
* Be committed to service excellence.

[Oxidant]

Nice one Howard, but, not anymore!
Snake, well look at the 457 issue with J*, how many were handed out?

[ZK-NSJ]

theres sum add on he air nz website,* about changing your qantas club membership to koru club,* looks like air nz* are making the most hey can out of it

[mac76]

I knew a few guys with 1000+ hrs on airbus who are looking at working in jetstar new club ,but with the news coming up of cost of living it looking very difficult to take the job.I note on the last 8 pages of posts there is a large group of pilots who are very unhappy at anyone who takes the job ,but if you dont have a job and are airbus experienced its hard to say no.I just cant understand why JETSTAR WOULD OFFER SUCH LOW CONDITIONS.
A.N.Z are paying 107K,the others are paying less but the salary for jetstar was just too funny to even mention:confused:

[slamer.]

Air NZ paying $107K....for what and in which currency...?

[Fruet Mich]

So lets put this into perpective,

Australia across the board has cheaper food, rent, clothing, fuel, transport and most probably by in large cheaper to live in every aspect in life compared to NewZealand.

Now lets do some comparisons to Jetstar Australia salary to that of its kuwu comparison at todays exchange rate of 1.25.

Jet* Aus A320 salaries as listed on their website

Jetstar Australia Capt: $145,195.00AUD $181,493.75NZD
Jetstar NZ Capt: $104,000.00AUD $130,000.00NZD

Jetstar Australia FO: $79,857.00AUD $99,821.25NZD Level 1
Jetstar NZ FO: $63,885.60AUD $70,000.00NZD

How much for a A320 rating? $45,000NZD?

Great return on investment!!!

And correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that a Qantas or AirNZ long haul flight attendant will earn more than a Kuwu(mexican) A320 first officer.

Now add the retention payments, company bonus payments, 11 days off a roster for the Jet* Aus pilots and 5/8's of bugger all for the kuwu's. Hmmm

Arrreeeeebah!!

Jetstar you really are taking the puss!! :ugh:

I'd love to hear an explaination from Jetstar as to why the kuwu's should earn 30% less?

[Goat Whisperer]

It's worse than that Freut, the exchange rate nowadays puts the currencies about 24% apart.

[waren9]

Not sure why you guys keep bringing up the currency conversion rates?

Only relavant if you want to spend that currency outside the country you earned it.

You dont hear the Poms converting Australian salaries to Pounds Sterling and then laughing out loud, do you?

In my experience you spend a dollar in NZ like you would spend a dollar in Aussie. Sure, there are differences but the buying power between each of them in their own countries is not 24% different.

Of far more relevance is income tax paid on those amounts. At those sorts of salaries the Kiwi will have less dollars in his hand after tax. The income tax calculators on the ATO and NZ IRD websites will give you some idea.

[UDH]

W9,

The relevance of AUD vs NZD: J* NZ will be using VH registered acft initially, therefore Aust AoC, therefore Aust licensed pilots.
All this Aust, Aust, Aust so why not Aust terms and conditions.... but wait, when the NZ operations start flying within Aust.. There it is again: AUST.

That is why the comparison

[waren9]

UDH,

I agree wholeheartedly.

But if Fruet is going to point out the differences in the value of the currencies its gotta be pointed out that we're not being asked to live in Australia on NZ money.

Yet.:sad:

I pray we never get to that.

[Dash1]

Until Jetstar NZ open their Sydney, Melbourne, Cairns and Perth bases.

[distracted cockroach]

so looks like Jetstar Aus A320 drivers get roughly the same as Air NZ A320 drivers...in NZ dollars. Air NZ pilots probably have more to gain in alowances and conditions (like they don't have to buy their own manuals?)
Means Jetstar NZ are offering roughly 25% below market rates....nice one team!!
Agree with Waren9....an NZ$ in NZ is worth pretty much the same as an AUD in Aus. All this stuff about food and rent etc being so much more expensive in NZ is nonsense, especially if you compare apples with apples.

[dueweno]

If your going to be fair how about factoring in you can go hunting, fishing (fresh or saltwater) skiing tramping you name it all within a few hours of where you choose to live. Until you try it its pretty hard to calculate that!!

[zube]

Tramping?

We have our own tramps here in Oz.

[hotnhigh]

One and only question at Jet* NZ interview.
Do you have an Oz ATPL?
Excellent, next......

[Dash1]

Another question could be;
'Do you have A330 experience?'
Thanks for that.....

[lunars]

interview any info?
how many wanabees any offers made so far?
when is the planned start date ?
all info would be great

[CI300]

ok. So if I get this right. Jetstar operating vh reg aircraft in NZ, means bad things for both sides of the ditch. It does sound like they may not have had the response they expected... Hold out brothers.

[hot tuna]

I quite agree , although Jet * have operated VH reg'd A320's ex CHC for a while now, albeit on Aus T& C's.

[Fruet Mich]

W9, I don't think you fully understand my earlier post?

So what you're affectively saying is that you would be happy to live in Syd earning $65k flying an A320? Pay for your medical yourself, pay for your AvSec card yourself and get paid DTA's only when on overnights?

It's not about exchange rate. It's about being paid a salary that is kept in line with the current market rates for a pilot flying an equivalent machine.

Forget exchange rates, get that right out of your head. Think salary minus living expenses equals expendable income.

For instance, you're paid a salary of $65000NZD, you pay $1.58 per litre for fuel, $500 per week for a very average house, on average about 20% more in food prices plus GST, and across the board is more expensive for everything at listed prices. So more expensive to live NZ than in Australia.

If you are paid $65k and live in Australia, you will have a lot more expendable income at the end of the week once you have paid for all your living expenses.

If you are paid $65k and live in NZ, you have less left over. Get it? This is the point. Market rates for an equivalent pilot and a little bit less of a puss take from Jet* Hope this is a little clearer than my earlier thread.

Again, I'd like to hear why Jetstar thinks Kiwis should be paid $65k NZD and Aussies should be paid $79k AUD. Got it?

Insult case and point!

[framer]

I've recently lived in both countries and found it hard to believe that NZ was more expensive. A quick google offered these results of the Mercer 2008 Cost of Living survey.
Sydney continues to be the most expensive city for expatriates in this region, moving up six places in the overall ranking to reach 15th place (score 104.1). Melbourne follows in 36th place (score 94.2), jumping 28 places and Perth climbs 31 places to reach ranking number 53 (score 88.5).

Both Australian and New Zealand cities are moving up in the rankings due to the appreciation of their local currencies against the US dollar. New Zealand’s cities remain the less costly option for expatriates, however, with Auckland in 78th place (score 81) and Wellington in 93 (score 77.6).




Mercer’s survey covers 143 cities across six continents and measures the comparative cost of over 200 items in each location, including housing, transport, food, clothing, household goods and entertainment. It is the world’s most comprehensive cost of living survey and is used to help multinational companies and governments determine compensation allowances for their expatriate employees.

[waren9]

Forget exchange rates, get that right out of your head.


Forgive me, but thats pretty much all your last post discussed.

Not disagreeing with the thrust of what you are trying to get across but remember when guys bandy about the phrase Market rates for an equivalent pilot it is by definition where supply does infact meet demand. "Market rates" is not equal to the highest paid or even necessarily what you and I would like to be paid.

If Jetstar does find enough pilots at the pay it offers, by definition they must be close to "market rates". Supply will have satisfied demand.

I agree, its sh1t but ultimately, if you as an individual doesnt like it, dont work there. Im not living in SYD on A$65k and I dont know anyone who would.

Regarding the costs of living comparisons between NZ and Aussie, and SYD in particular, I'm with Framer. You and I will just have to agree to disagree.

Cheers
W9

[Flava Saver]

Well, as I previously mentioned, people keen to join should have held out. Its official. JQ are offering better conditions to internal guys in Aus to go across due to lack of interest. So I wonder if the guys who have already jumped the gun and signed on for the first offer, will be on the original $$$$? :}

[RadioSaigon]

...Australia across the board has cheaper food, rent, clothing, fuel, transport and most probably by in large cheaper to live in every aspect in life compared to NewZealand...

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from FM -of for that matter, which planet you are on, but let me tell you for a fact the cost of living in AUS is far in excess of anything you may be paying in NZ. I've been here (AUS) now for 8 years and I reckon conservatively I pay a 30-40% premium for living & working in the West Island. The "cheap food" you tout is consistently of a poorer standard, less variety and vastly more expensive, particularly meat. The food standard in your average NZ supermarket is beyond what you might be able to find in a delicatessen here. Rents? I've been obliged in the past to pay AUD$180 per week for a dorm bed shared with 8 others in a backpackers -it was all I could find or afford. Cheaper how? Clothing? I pay in AUD roughly the same as I would pay in NZ for a comparable item. Not cheaper at all. Fuel? The oil companies here regularly jack the price of a litre of fuel on holiday weekends, school holidays etc., just to gouge as much as they can out of the motorist. I've never seen that happen in NZ. Further, in NZ wherever I pull in to buy fuel I know within a few cents per litre what I'll be paying. Not here! There can be as much as 30-40c per litre difference between the SYD price and what I pay locally 2 hours up the road!!! Go into the country, you'll be guessing what dollar you are going to be paying.

That's just a few of the things I noticed on a trip home just a few weeks ago.

Please FM, try to establish some facts before you post drivel like that again. Your prejudices are showing.

[blacksmoke]

Have just heard that the money on offer now is better than pacblue and jitconnect. Have been told BASE now around 150k plus a bonus which is given after every year of service that is completed.
Will be funny to see the rush from jetconnect etc now!!!!!
Have also heard the bases are akl and christchurch.
Most other conditions are similar to the australian one, although leave and super are alittle different...

[Sunstar320]

Sorry Blacksmoke, negativity wasn't directed at you, more at this stupid company who cant make their damn mind up on how low they think the positions should be worth!

[horserun]

Blacksmoke!!
Thats great news!!
Where did you hear that??
What are F/Os being paid?

[blacksmoke]

sunstar , initially it was just going to be akl as the base, as ch was going to stay under the aust conditions. And no, it was yesterday that this came out, so before you sprout out , and make stupid comments get your facts correct. Although you may not care, or be interested in this, there are some good guys out there who are....
not sure on the updated f/o conditions.

[blacksmoke]

skystar, no worries, and yes it is alittle bit of a worry when the company keeps changing the deal, but I must admit, in the current market, with the amount of guys around, and all the ones wanting to come home to either oz or nz, I can see why they are playing these games. I am not saying I agree with them, but its really no different to what happens in europe with the low cost carriers and charter airlines.
Hopefully once its up and running, the guys over time will be able to increase the overall package as the market changes, just like the pilots at jitconnect etc did....

[Fruet Mich]

Miss Saigon, for a start if you've been in "Aus now for 8 years" You're out of touch, and can't really comment on the difference. So I'm guessing that what pretty much make you full of drivel, so to speak.

If you were somewhere left of Taupo as your profile reads of course your expensive lifestyle in Syd or Perth will be far more expensive than that you had experienced in good ol NZ.

If you're happy to come home and live in AUCLAND to be paid 65,000 flying an A320 then go right ahead. After all this is what this thread is about. I'd imagine you'd have a similar amount of complaints to that of where you are living right now as you seem to be quite a passionate individual.

Cheers ballbag :)

[RadioSaigon]

Your lack of any level of maturity is showing Fruet Mich. Far from being "out of touch" my experience here and very recently in NZ have highlighted these differences. You really need to experience some life before you start drivelling on as you do.

$65k and living in AKL??? You poor hard-done-by wee thing. Makes my $22k living in NZQN/NZWF seem a wastefully salubrious lifestyle :hmm::ugh: -any wonder I left??? Nah, the real wonder is I would go back to it in a heartbeat. In fact, I will do very soon. I really would like to have your problems FM. Grow up, fetch yourself a can of Harden Up and get on with it. You really don't know which direction your arse is pointing in.

[Fruet Mich]

Ewww nasty, poor wee fella. Where has this come from Miss Saigon? We've all done the hard yards fella. I once earned 23k flying GA in Auckland living the dream as you would put it.

I'm obviously not on this planet solid enough to fathom your angryness? Seems a little excessive your ranting and raving. As I said...

If you want to fly an A320 based in Auckland for $65,000, come on home! I choose not to. Maybe because you're such an arrogant little shiza companies in NZ won't hire you.

As for my ranting and raving, perhaps you may want to read earlier posts from other members upset at the terms and conditions on offer.

My earlier post about NZ conditions compared to AUS conditions were proved wrong a few pages back, so why be so angryness ballbag?

Come on home!!! You can earn more than 22k living in QN now!

Now take a valium and drink a big ol cup of shut the F@&k up! :)

[RadioSaigon]

I'm not even the slightest bit angry Fruet Mich -despite your poor attempts at provoking me. Wasting energy on people that I don't care for and situations I didn't put myself into is not my style. I'm just disgusted at how hard done by you appear to think you are. Typically Gen-Y attitude. You chose to pursue the A-320 or whatever it is you currently fly, wherever it is you currently fly. You accepted the T&C's on offer. I'm guessing that when basings were discussed, you probably chose to live in AKL. Please don't expect me to sympathise with you when you are currently earning 3x the salary I was on, and don't expect me to accept your unfounded ill-informed assertions re the comparable costs of living when it's patently obvious you have no personal experience of what you are talking about and no data to support your assertions.

[Fruet Mich]

Sorry, some of those comments were immature as are a few other of my earlier posts. It is purely because of my passion for this industry and my attitute towards management and their short sightedness.

Mate I'm sorry if I've hit a raw nerve as to how much you are having to pay to live in Syd, but to be brutually honest I'm more concerned as to how much people will be paid in NZ flying an A320 for Jet* living in AA.

Yes I did get it wrong in earlier posts with the cost of living, I was just comparing it to when I was living in Melbourne in the suburbs. It did seem cheaper dollar for dollar, But I was proved wrong with the findings of another member.

Now can we have a beer and get back to being pis'd off at Jet* and not at one another. choice

[Fruet Mich]

Geez fella, I had a wife like you once. A loong time ago!

[RadioSaigon]

1st this:

Sorry, some of those comments were immature as are a few other of my earlier posts...

then:

...can we have a beer and get back to being pis'd off at Jet* and not at one another...

and 2 minutes later:

Geez fella, I had a wife like you once. A loong time ago!

No I don't reckon we can have a beer. I don't have the time to waste on fools. You can have a one-way no-return trip to my ignore list though! :} Have a lot of fun playing with yourself...

Hardly surprising you no longer have the wife really...

[Fruet Mich]

Now I have a lovely wife I can share intelligent conversations with. It's great, you should try it sometime. Now go take some prozac, let the heart slow down a little and squeeze some pimples young man. I'm gonna go talk to the cat, have a cup of tee and a lie down. I'm exhausted after all that.

[horserun]

For F**k sake!
Go argue it out somewhere else....
Has anyone got any more news on the new T$Cs??

[craka]

Here is what ive worked out......

$65k before tax is $5416 per month

flying 85 hours a month will earn you an extra $1200 per month before tax

Total of $6616 per month before tax.

After tax this will leave you with $4357.75 per month. (IRD website M SL tax code) $4860.30 without a S/L

The type rating will cost $35,000AUD which is $43,189 NZD salary sacrifice over three years is $1,199 per month deductions from your monthly pay cheque.

There will probably be tax-free allowances that may make this more attractive - anyone know??

This leaves us with $3,158 - $3,661 per month ($790 - $915 per week depending on you S/L status)

[FullySickBro]

Radio Saigon/ Freut Mich

Having lived in both countries in the last few years I can say that I found the cost of living fairly similar- between the big cities. The notable differences I found were:

- Fuel to be more expensive in NZ even when you take into account price gouging but the cheap Japanese imports seemed to give the second hand car market cheaper in NZ.

- Rent in Auckers/ Sydney similar leaning towards Sydney as the more expensive option (especially coastal Sydney).

Where NZ had Oz was in the regional areas. Bar places like Tauranga, it definitely was cheapaer to rent or buy even with higher interest rates in NZ.

Must disagree on food though. Pack n Save does not rate highly on my delicatessen list. Not big on red meat so can't comment but find it easier to get good seafood in Oz. Plus Oz does better fish and chips!

As for the current Jet* offer, well good luck all....

Cheerio :}

[Single Flasher]

As soon as someone has confirmation of the new package can you please post it here. Would be very interesting to know. Also if there is an increase in OFF days over the 8 that are currently on offer.
I have heard all the rumours but no details. Nice to see that we may have actually 'hit the bottom' in terms of T's and C's. Don't recall seeing an aviation company having to up the conds, to attract crew, ever, actually.
SF

[SuperDooperEngineer]

any one know what J* are doing with Engineering in NZ

[kiwi engineer12]

any one know what J* are doing with Engineering in NZ


The initial plan was to set up a AKL engineering base, but I heard that they had no takers for the LAME positions, as they were offering $30-33k less than Virgin Tech NZ to work the same shift. ($89k compared to $122k)

Rumours now are that Air NZ will handle them, a la Jetconnect.

[pigdriver]

caught up with a J*checker mate the otherday, and I can tell you the new deal is as blacksmoke said earlier. Base 130k, 20k bonus for every yr completed, plus 10k sign on bonus.Everything else same as original contract.ie, 5 weeks leave etc....
I believe jitconnect has a similar deal, 125k base, with a 15k end of yr bonus, and pacblue very similar.
So with the exception of air nz ( who pay much better I have been told), this makes j* not a bad deal if you want to live in enzed and be home everynight etc...
Not that I am saying this is good or bad, but certainly stops alot of the rot we have all been reading about them.
Flying is a mix of domestic and tasman stuff, with the alot of growth to come over the next few yrs??!!

[shortshorts]

Are these the new T&Cs for pilots from outside Jq, or has the increase been for current Jq pilots that will be working there for a short period (cover initial shortfall) then moving back?

[100knots]

tiger-palm, your full of cake chief you don't pay for your own medials/uniform/parking/jepps etc

[hot tuna]

Medicals and Jepps are at pilots expense

[SnotNoseJockey]

Can someone please post the FO T&C

[SuperDooperEngineer]

kiwi engineer, there will be no low cost in getting Air Nz doing the work...

A Shame that there own engineering has demised.

[kiwi engineer12]

I agree with you 100%.

However NZ is not like Aus, there is no other ground handling companies to handle third party work. Emirates Engineering and Virgin Tech NZ are the only other outfits in AKL.
Jetstar may have no choice.

Have since heard that John Holland may get involved in the interim, not sure of the details though.

When Pac Blue started up, they were handled by Air NZ untill they could get Virgin Tech NZ up and running. Maybe something like that will happen, who knows.