Speedbird 58L - 'Final figures from the company'

[snosrap]

Hi, I fly a freighter out of Cape Town and our scheduled departure is the same as the Speedbird to London. Almost every night they pushback on schedule and hold at the holding point for anything up to fifteen minutes and I've heard them say that they are " waiting for their final figures from their company".

Besides being a mild irritation to me, it would cause a riot if they did that at any other major airport.

Does anybody know why they don't get their figures in the bay like everyone else ?

Regards
Phil

[Human Factor]

It improves departure punctuality (allegedly). The theory is that the aircraft pushes on time with the provisional figures and receives the final loadsheet figures on taxy-out. The figures are supposed to be received within a certain time after "off chocks" and more often than not, that is the case.

Certain stations have a reputation for being quicker (or not) than others as the figures need to be sent to one of the main loading stations and are then sent directly to the aeroplane via ACARS. There are others but off the top of my head, they are London, Berlin, Bombay and New York. Not sure which one Cape Town uses.

[overstress]

Yes, I know. This is a wind-up, surely? There's another thread on this non-subject.

[jbayfan]

It's not a wind-up. There are so many of us operating out of Cape Town and being affected by BA's inconsideration that we recently discussed posting on Pprune to try to find out what BA's pluck is? Seems that two of us posted around the same time.

So BA58L, next time you taxi out for RW19 at CPT, look to your left as you pass the freight ramp and those eyes glaring at you out of the two B737 freighters, that's us :}

[Bealzebub]

I thought it was a requirement to leave a signed copy of the loadsheet with the dispatcher or dispatch agent prior to departure. How would they do that then?

[Rainboe]

You sign a provisional loadsheet and leave a copy, and accept an ACARS final loadsheet during taxi out. As long as the weights are within a wide band, you can accept the default weight you have used. Get used to it folks, it is going to be the established future procedure for most airlines as printers and ACARs become the norm!

[A Comfy Chair]

Just because you get your loadsheet by ACARS after the door is closed doesn't mean you have to push back and block the taxiways/holding point for everyone else!

Happens with surprising regularity to BA in Sydney, and i've seen a controller really get the sh#$ts with them and send them off down the airport in the wrong direction to get them out of the way.

[SoundBarrier]

Happens with surprising regularity to BA in Sydney, and i've seen a controller really get the sh#$ts with them and send them off down the airport in the wrong direction to get them out of the way.

:D time for people to be a bit more considerate don't you think? Holding other who are prepared and ready to go, regularly is like pushing in line. It suck and actually costs $$.

[Mungo Man]

I've had this problem with BA in Aberdeen too. They should go to a remote hold and wait for the figures rather than blocking the holding point queue.

[potkettleblack]

When you call ATC and say you are fully ready requesting push and start then surely it should be like it says on the tin. Many airports have a requirement when approaching the hold of a runway that you will be fully ready so that they can get maximum use out of the runways. That means if your cabin isn't secure OR you don't have your numbers then you need to say so as early on in the process and not hold up the entire show regardless of the impact that this will have on your place in the queue.

Not all airports are designed like LHR with multiple taxiways or have controllers that are aware of BA's loadsheet peculiarities, hence jams can and do occur. I was the subject of a 15 minute delay behind one at a French regional airport not so long ago. Perhaps if the BA's stayed on the gate until the numbers were finalised or remote held then the powers that be in the loading department will get their act together as the cumulative impact of the delays were crunched by the beancounters.

[ETOPS]

Perhaps if the BA's stayed on the gate until the numbers were finalised

Well I'm rostered to operate to CPT in March so just for you potkettleblack I'll try your technique. Brakes off (to trigger ACARS "off time" ) but no pushback until final figures received. I will post how it went on my return........

[redED]

When you call ATC and say you are fully ready requesting push and start then surely it should be like it says on the tin.

Try and tell Ryanair that, constantly asking for push and start with steps down and no tug attached! :mad:

[Old Smokey]

Surely this is an anti-BA wind-up?

We have a similar operation to them. We get provisional load sheet at the ramp via ACARS for preliminary planning. Final load sheet also comes via ACARS for final preparation.

I do not know of a single pilot in our (similar to BA) company who would request push back before FULLY ready.:uhoh:

It has to be a wind-up.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[BOAC]

Surely this is an anti-BA wind-up? - in sequence, probably yes and no:). The system is fine as long as the ground side works properly. The problem comes when a delay occurs with receipt of the figures and a crew are not considerate enough to get their a/c out of the *** way. I always found it embarrassing when it happened (GVA seemed to be a favourite).

[CR2]

As a 400F Loadmaster. I do a loadplan & loadsheet (- final fuel figure) load the plane, by which time a final fuel figure has been agreed on, add said fuel figure to loadsheet and we leave. Hmmm low tech stuff.

BA should simply not be allowed to push back and block the rest of us because their company cannot get their act together. Why should we be inconvenienced? Charge them a "blocking taxiway fee" of $1000 or so for 15 mins, soon put an end to this stupidity (and sabotage of other's operations).

Edit to say: if all doors closed & brakes are released, acars does send an off blocks message. Old trick.

[Torque2]

Its not just BA, Air Canada are good at it as well.

[TheGorrilla]

First, the brakes off message is NOT sent via ACARS for loadsheet purposes. I've had the loadsheet on numerous occasions finalised before releasing the brakes. Mostly when stuck on the gate as a result of an ATC slot. This loadsheet signal is sent by the dispatcher (TRM) or load control equivalent at the outstation. Usually once the gate is closed. Then the centralised load control computer (as Human Factor says, at Berlin, London, NY etc...) sends the final figures directly to the a/c, and cc a copy to the outstation (hence no use shouting down the radio for it!).

Infact, last week I had the final loadsheet confirmation arrive before the provisional loadsheet was presented to me!! (figure that one out!! :}), ok, this is fine assuming no errors.

So.... From a flight crew perspective, we have an SoP to depart the stand with a provisional loadsheet signed and duplicated. Then the final is supposed to be recieved as we taxi out. That's our company SoP. Not our choice as line pilots. So as line pilots we are taking the gamble on our companys behalf that the figures arrive before we reach the holding point.

Can I just point out, I don't like this any more than you unfortunate sods that get stuck behind us! Infact it gets on my tits. But I get paid to follow sops, and get insulting, derrogatory memos when I don't. Sadly, that's the crux of it.

I think I speak for many BA pilots when I say it's really nice to be presented with a final loadsheet at the gate before we depart (though it normally arrives at STD minus 3 seconds!).