BA58L blocks taxiway at Cape Town

[jbayfan]

Does anyone know why BA pushes back at Cape Town, taxis out and then requests to hold on the only taxiway to the active runways because they are "waiting for figures"?

Are they trying to push back on time when they are not fully ready or what? This occurs quite frequently and they end up blocking other aircraft that need to depart. Delays are up to 20 minutes.

Is this a BA policy?

[wiggy]

No it's not BA policy to block taxiways ( but I can see why you might think that).

The BA policy is: Prior to doors being closed we are presented with a provisional loadsheet (roughly speaking the latest best guess) to allow us to complete the loading of our Flight Management Computers with weight info. and also to allow us to check/confirm performance calculations. The final loadsheet which reflects the actual load on board, should be then be datalinked to us shortly after pushback. We cannot takeoff until we have received these final "figures" - just in case the provisional/best guess figures were wildly wrong.

In theory :bored: the final loadsheet should arrive very shortly after doors closed and not cause a delay.................however :ugh: in the real world delays are not unknown and then it gets very embarrasing, especially if you are blocking the only taxiway. Fear not, it happens at places other than CPT, and it even happens to other airlines - saw three jetBlues being pulled out of line for takeoff at JFK the other day because "numbers" delays.

[overstress]

I operate that route and I can assure you it's not done on purpose! Can't recall any particular problems with final loadsheet there...

All part of the game, I'm afraid, perhaps you should push back ahead of us... ;)

Besides which we wouldn't 'request to hold' as you put it, we just wouldn't call 'ready for departure'

[criss]

It's just the standard procedure for BA to not be ready at h/p at many airports, not only at Cape Town:ugh:

[FCS Explorer]

why is it so hard to get the final figures by the time the doors close?
after all pax and bags were checked in 1-2 hours ago and cargo probably even longer?

[kotakota]

Last minute changes ( LMCs ) which can mean pax number changes ie no shows , VERY late loading / confirmation of Staff pax etc , if very close to MTOW , some cargo might be offloaded , literally a last minute decision as to which cargo / what it weighs etc . This might involve counting of boxes etc if cargo holds 'Bulk Out ' ie just will not fit in the hold . All this can be done while the a/c is pushing back .
I am sorry BUT it is NOT that common , and is very frustrating /embarrassing for any crew blocking taxiways etc. Its all part of airmanship , being a good neighbour . Not the crews fault if it goes wrong some days.
Lets pick on jerks who dither on runways after landing and cause go-arounds , delayed departures etc .

[BIGBAD]

lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else

[52049er]

It's not hard - the dispatcher/turn-round co-ordinator knows the figures as soon as the doors are closed. However, BA's policy is to use a set of centralised load control centres (I think there are 5 - New York, Joburg, Hong Kong, Berlin and London) to finalise the churning of the figures the dispatcher has in their hand. This saves the expense and licensing difficulties of keeping several hundred individuals around the world (and not necessarily BA employees) up to speed on Load & Balance calculations.

It also frees up the dispatcher to concentrate on the stuff they can affect, such as pax/freight/catering/fuel loading and helps punctuality.

Of course, the downside is that the figures have to be sent from the outstations to the regional centres, and Murphy's Law being what it is, delays can occur. All it needs is the dispatcher to be stuck crossing a taxiway and unable to reach a fax/telex and the system falls down. Some stations are more prone to this than others (maybe at CPT the dispatcher has a long way to travel to send figures).

However (and it is enormously embarrassing when it happens) it doesn't happen all the time - and those stations where it does can easily be identified and (hopefully) actions taken.

Hope that clears things up.

[ETOPS]

I'm very aware that our "radio-loadsheet" procedures can lead to frustration for other operators, that's why I pay close attention to airfield lay-outs and other departing traffic. I've given way or delayed taxiing for just this reason innumerable times - as have many of my colleagues.

It goes wrong sometimes leading to delay for others - sorry :(

[kotakota]

Well said ETOPS , but sadly there are so many 'knockers' who don't care a fig about 'mistakes' and apologies from BA crew -its ALL a BIG plan by BA crew to screw everybody up !!
criss and BIGBAD are real experts.

[BEA 71]

Other airlines do have Centralized Load Planning. Not only BA.

[overstress]

lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else

:ugh: Are you having a bad day?

[blimey]

lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else

I always want to land on 18C at AMS and avoid 15 minute taxy in from 18R, but as I'm not KLM, they never let me.

:hmm:

[fox niner]

Well.

My airline, (KLM) has centralised load planning.

And we have LMC's as well. But they never cause a blockage of a taxiway. We wait for the final figures and won't push back without them.

I would grill the BA crew ahead of me via the radio if they wouldn't be ready for departure within a minute or two.:ugh:

Blimey: And BTW KLM also lands on 18R, as you very well know...you don't seriously think that thát would be normal policy in over-correct holland would you?

[puddle-jumper2]

The only 'over-correct' country in Europe is the U.K. - everyone else gives priority to local traffic.:=

[CargoOne]

52049er

However, BA's policy is to use a set of centralised load control centres (I think there are 5 - New York, Joburg, Hong Kong, Berlin and London) to finalise the churning of the figures the dispatcher has in their hand. This saves the expense and licensing difficulties of keeping several hundred individuals around the world

Let me guess... In the best BA traditions in order to avoid paying several hundred indivuduals (not full time, surely) you have set up 5 centrlized load control centers, spent several million (if not dozens) bucks on software and equipment, rented facilities, then suddenly realized that those 5 centres all togheter employing over a hundred full-time staff, few levels of management etc and finally the cost is actually higher than it was for local guys at the stations, but it is too late because investements are big.... And the system works not so efficiently too... Another day, same story...

[EASY 69]

Pushing back without the final figures will almost always lead to additional pressure on the crew, taxiway delays additional fuel burn etc etc in the event of incorrect or late final figures. Lets face it, if we had always had clc then many would be now saying 'This doesn't work well, lets find a better solution'.

One step forward two steps back.............

[bar none]

Why not continue with the present procedure at airports with more than one route out to the active, and at those where there is not, hold on stand until the figures arrive ? Or is that too simplistic ?

[Leezyjet]

We operate a CLC system, with ACARS loadsheets, but we always have a copy before push back on the flight deck, and do the LMC's the old fashioned manual way. Very rarely does it cause a delay, and keeps ATC and other carriers happy too.

IMHO, I used to be dead set against the CLC operation, but once I had become used to working with it, I realised there is an extra level of safety by using that set up, which is obviously a good thing with an extra set of eyes who also knows exactly what should be loaded and where, able to check the info on the loadsheet that the f/deck crew would never know was incorrect.

:)

[wiggy]

"lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else"

Oh dear, I refer to my reply to the original post and in the meantime I am considering either:

1. Starting a thread entitled "why did JetBlue delay departures out of JFK the other day, is it company policy, I demand to know because JetBlue must have a policy on this, they obviously want to delay American, BA, Iberia " or,

2. Living with it because in aviation **** happens, even to the likes of KLM, and over the years I've learned to live with it ...

Take a depth breath people ..there, doesn't that feel better?

[Rainboe]

What a bunch of sad, BA-hating gits and whingers on this thread! BA operate CLC and ACARs loadsheets. Delays to others are rare. Live with it. It works. Some of you are trying to teach BA how to run an airline- they don't seem to be doing too bad! Worry about your own jobs! There are far bigger problems out there- the thickhead slow taxiers who delay turning off the runway with another aeroplane screaming down on them 3 miles away, because they are 'uncertain'! If I had a day off for every go-around I've had to do in a 747 because of those saddos, I'd have a very quiet month! THAT costs, not sitting waiting at idle for a couple of minutes, once in a blue moon! Get real folks!

[Dick Deadeye]

I would grill the BA crew ahead of me via the radio if they wouldn't be ready for departure within a minute or two.


Keep the frequency clear, shut up, and let ATC deal with any aircraft causing a delay.

Some in KLM obviously haven't learnt anything about RT procedures following their last hurried attempt at a departure!

"You would grill"...you pompous @rse!

[Rainboe]

Good response Dick! Must be something in Portsmouth water! We can't abide insufferable arses!

[jbayfan]

This isn't a once in a while event - it is so common that the SAA freighter pilots who operate from the freight ramp at CPT prepare intersection figures and include a brief on what to do if BA blocks the taxiway. Perhaps it's time for South Africa to include the UK "advise when FULLY ready" phrase before calling for pushback?? :ok:

[Stick-N-Rudder]

Last minute changes ( LMCs ) which can mean pax number changes ie no shows , VERY late loading / confirmation of Staff pax etc , if very close to MTOW , some cargo might be offloaded , literally a last minute decision as to which cargo / what it weighs etc . This might involve counting of boxes etc if cargo holds 'Bulk Out ' ie just will not fit in the hold


Very true, among hundreds of other reasons. But how to explain this to the idiotic beancounters spreading around that aberration commonly known as CLC? Bahhh... :mad:

[FlexibleResponse]

The answer is very simple really. The flight should not be cleared to dispatch and commence pushback until the final paperwork is received by the cockpit crew. If everyone worked to this, then all would have an equal chance.

Who do we think we are fooling if we go for an on-time pushback and then sit on a taxi-way somewhere waiting for a loadsheet?

No final paperwork, no pushback.

[Rainboe]

What aeroplane pushes back ready for take-off? It takes a 747 10-15 minutes minimum to get checks and cabin briefing completed?

Let´s ban ALL pushbacks until ALL pre-take-off checks and briefings have been completed ON STAND! Then nobody would wait for anybody!

[Bergie]

I couldn't agree more, apart from inconveniencing other operators, there is also a chance that being pushed for time in the lane with other jets waiting behind, there is a chance of making an input error like EK in Aus. I am surprised that BA allows such a policy.

[Rainboe]

Read the 2 threads running about this and try and understand before you post!

[Bergie]

No need to get smart rainboe. I have read the posts and fully understand. You dont seem to understand what I'm getting at. If you are receiving your final loadsheet in the lane with LMC's needed to be made to the FMC or MCDU, having irate jets waiting for taxi behind you just adds to the pressure which could in turn could lead to mistakes being made.

[777fly]

jbayfan,

Your post is exaggerated rubbish and you know it. 99.9% of BA ops get out of CPT with no delays on taxiways due to loadsheet problems. 20 minutes wait for takeoff to fit in with CPTs allegedly busy traffic system is a much more usual reason for delays.

[Rainboe]

If you are receiving your final loadsheet in the lane with LMC's needed to be made to the FMC
Bergie, if you are going to make criticisms of the system, I think you should understand it first. None of what you say takes place. All figures are worked out for a provisional loadsheet and entered into the system pre-pushback, and all take-off calculations made. On taxi, when you receive the final figures by ACARs, 19 times out of 20 you are within parameters and do nothing but acknowledge and take-off. Just occasionally you have to enter higher weights, which is done in seconds. Considering BA has never had such a data entry error that you accuse them of risking, I think the system is perfectly safe- safer than several other airlines appear to use.Perhaps it's time for South Africa to include the UK "advise when FULLY ready" phrase before calling for pushback??
Another daft posting! YOU are not 100% ready on pushback either. YOU have checks to carry out and cabin briefings to complete too. A 747 takes time. NOBODY is 'fully ready' on pushback! Throwing tantrums about it is pathetic- like getting upset when somebody enters the runway, then can't take off because of a fault!

[BetpumpS]

Whilst the said procedure does cause a blockage due to the layout of an airport-e.g CPT I don't believe it was anywhere near 20 minutes!

3-5 minutes at most.

[Bergie]

Rainboe, I can see from the name calling that you have used on numerous other posts what sort of character you are. I refuse to get involved in any mud slinging with you because in your mind you are obviously always right.

"Just occasionally you have to enter higher weights, which is done in seconds"

You said it my man, just a few seconds is all it takes. Please accept my humble apologies for daring to question BA's SOPS. I bow before you.

Over & out

[Rainboe]

Well, with great relief, at last that's settled then! Another satisfied customer!

God I'm knocking 'em off today!

[BetpumpS]

I refuse to get involved in any mud slinging with you because in your mind you are obviously always right.

How very dare you.

What a wicked and completely unfounded thing to say about Rainboe

[WindSheer]

What does the Captain sign if there is no 'official' loadsheet??
Does that mean his discretion is not the final say over the actual weight??

[Rainboe]

He has to sign a Provisional Loadsheet which is used for all calculations. As long as the final ACARs loadsheet is within strict parameters, just an acknowledgement is sent by the crew before take-off on receipt of the final weights.

Maybe you are not familiar with large aeroplane airline operations. 'Discretion' over weights is not used to the same degree, certainly not at 747 level. Any possible discretion is usually in discussion between the Captain and ops staff long before this stage.