Jetstar NZ Pay [Archive]

remoak

11th Feb 2009, 09:43

It is simple market forces. I doubt that Jetstar will have any difficulties filling the seats at those rates, in fact I understand that they have been inundated with applications. look around you and see how many unemployed, jet-qualified pilots are out there. Add up all the Kiwi expats who suddenly found themselves out of work in Europe over the last few months when their jet jobs disappeared...

The idea that a pilot who accepts this salary is somehow harming his colleagues is standard 60's Antipodean thinking that the rest of the world got over years ago. You are worth whatever the market dictates. The idea that pilots are magically entitled to some fanciful salary figure only really exists in Oz and NZ. Everybody else knows better. The world has moved on.

Still, you can always accept the job and then strike for higher pay - another well-worn Antipodean path. Good luck with that.

If you just want the money, go and be a deck hand on the Manly ferry - I'm sure you will enjoy every minute.

Right, now where's that flak jacket... :E

Tempo

11th Feb 2009, 10:21

GADRIVR,

What's your postal address.....i'll send you a box of tissues.

rmcdonal

11th Feb 2009, 10:54

If you just want the money, go and be a deck hand on the Manly ferry - I'm sure you will enjoy every minute.

Right, now where's that flak jacket...

You mean life jacket :E

BPA

11th Feb 2009, 11:08

Let me see a deck hand on the Manly ferry, with all those lovely north shore ladies and backpackers to look at every day, plus no check flights every 6 months, no medicals to worry about, no back of the clock work, umm who has the better job!

Mat Finish

11th Feb 2009, 11:50

So remoak are you going to apply then? (Go on remoak..be honest!)

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

Angle of Attack

11th Feb 2009, 11:53

The salary for an FO is equal to $57,500 AUD, to fly up to 1000 hours a year,

Wow I worked in GA in AUS 11 years ago and made 45k salary, I don't think its a matter of whether people accept these crap conditions or not, some people do, but regardless I am only an F/O but still exceed these CAPT conditions by 40% , its all about choice, if you dont jump at every opportunity and pick your decisions you can easily out do this crap offer. You are what you eat, and I only eat the best! So dont complain think about it and do it quite simple really!

remoak

11th Feb 2009, 16:39

So remoak are you going to apply then? (Go on remoak..be honest!)

Sure... why not. Beats the crap out of my present gig commuting to Europe and let's face it, NZ aviation is a closed shop. Those of us who had the gall to go beyond these hallowed shores in search of work, soon found out how hard it is to come back. not only that, but it doesn't matter how much experience you might have, it's off you go to that Saab or Dash 8 in the right seat to "serve your time". Yes, I think you will find a lot of eminently qualified people will be flocking back from Europe... because we all know that lifestyle is worth megabucks - more than the salary differential between our euro salaries and what's on offer here.

Straight onto a nice shiny new jet, at or near the top of the seniority list... I'd take it.

Mind you, I'm too old and ugly to stand much chance of getting the gig, so it's all moot really!

an3_bolt

11th Feb 2009, 19:20

You will only ever get paid what YOU think you are worth.

hadenuff

11th Feb 2009, 19:56

I can see the Jetstar Oz ChCh base being closed at some stage, at which point the incumbents will be 'invited' to join the Jetstar NZ ChCh base (to open the following day) or move back to Oz. Unsure of what the contract allows wrt closing of bases, but would seem likely..... :ugh:

If 72k for the FO is prior to Salsac for an endo, then most of the local lads will be better off sitting in the regionals. If it includes the endo, then the pay would look about on par with Pac Blue. ('ish)

Regardless, as has already been said, I'm sure there will be no shortage of candidates given the current climate and stagnation of movement in NZ.

GADRIVR

11th Feb 2009, 20:17

Remoak and tempo........words of typical scabs!!!!
People lilke you are the cause of the problem in the first place.:ok:

haughtney1

11th Feb 2009, 20:21

GADRIVR, nice try at a wind up.........

Some of us have made the money that we need to make....

Scabs are those who cross a pickett line..so wheres your donkey jacket and 44 gallon drum full of burning wood?

horserun

11th Feb 2009, 20:27

If it turns out your right and that is the pay, then I will withdrawl my application. No one should take it.

If they do pay F**k all its going to come back and bite them when the industry turns again. Drivers will be out of there like rats from a sinking ship.

For F**ks sake, they could at atleast have the balls to pay the same as jetconnect. What a pack f**king w**kers

clawmonstar

11th Feb 2009, 21:15

If this whoel shamozzle of a economic downturn continues, I think people may be happy just to have a job. Not defending Jetstar for advertising the conditions in any way, but the is it fair to say that the price for staff is dictated by the demand for employment at that time?

If Jetstar were getting some interest on those conditions, there is nothing to stop them going ahead with it. They might just be testing the waters. Here's hoping that nobody has to consider it the way things are going (future possible downturn/redundancies).

On a satirical side note - maybe pilot's should be pushing for unlimited sick leave. If ATC'ers receive it because they are in a safety sensitive operation, maybe we should too.

Sand dune Sam

11th Feb 2009, 21:32

GADRIVR pull your head in..that said, the only reason why Australian companies start up operations in New Zealand is because they know Kiwis will work for less.

GADRIVR

11th Feb 2009, 22:03

Economic downturn my butt.
1. Airline management (employees they ARE) types keep getting pay increases.
2. Truck drivers, train drivers etc get more than us.
3. Box stakers earn more than most GA types and a lot of regionals.
4. The vast majority of small businesses that in trouble at this moment in time are in that position because they over extended themselves. Pure and simple.
The only reason that pilots (and small companies)keep getting screwed is because they ALLOW themselves to be. I'll give you an example in simplistic terms.
Recently I was involved in negotiations with a freight forwarding company (lets call them Bastards inc!!).
They were given a fair quote, based on well maintained modern aircraft, pilots being paid what they should be paid and then some, quaranteed levels of service (in other words, we say we'll be there.....we'll be there on time and on budget no matter what unless weather is a factor or unforseen maintenace issues and then we had a plan 2 etc). They were given figures that came in less than 2% over the status quo. If we don't come up to the mark...penalties...and fair enough.
The status quo as it stands...does NOT get the job done properly. Maintenance issues, poorly trained pilots,weak ontime performance etc.
All was looking good.
A couple of weeks later we get a phone call from an old mate who now works for aforesaid bastards inc in a management capacity (different section). He tells us that it looked like that we were going to miss out on the tender for the following mostly because,
the management type who is in charge of that particular company business unit was at a company function and heard boasting that he was about to recommend that the mob we were working for wouldn't get the contract.
Price was the issue he said. Fair enough....thats life. He then went on to say that he had been in this business for years, and had built up a solid rapport with the existing operators. Fair enough again.
He then went on to speak about pilots and operators that he knew personally that were "willing to the job done no matter what". Bit dodgy it sounds but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt...fair enough.
When asked about "willing to get the job done etc" and what that meant...he replied that pilots (thats us) always say that if the weather is no good, we can't get in...well he was sick and tired of hearing that because with his favourite crowd, that was almost never an issue because the pilots had "local knowledge" and therefore didn't have to refer to the CASA approach plates!! Hang on...local knowledge maybe....mentioning approach plates?....seems that duty of care is starting to slip eh?
He continued in the same vane about maintenance..:you don't NEED those eextra instruments in the cockpit...half the time they don't work anyhow! etc
I won't bore everyone with the details but suffice to say the conversation rambled on for some time and the general crux was "back in the good old days of bank running we had pilots/companies with balls etc etc etc".
When asked as to what he would do about rule breakers, his reply was (big grin, big wink), dunno what you're talking about mate!!! That attitude was out of touch in the trucking industry a decade ago.
So whats the crux of the story you ask?
Simple......the company who were bidding gave up....went back to the "old way of doing things because it was too hard to argue with whats established".
Gotta love this industry eh?
Like I've said before, the people at the coal face in this industry are gutless at all levels!:ugh:

Mat Finish

11th Feb 2009, 22:11

And like PacBlue will we see JetStar NZ aircraft overnight in Oz to commence rotations out of Australia the next day, further still lowering the cost basis for Qantas.?

Further still Chch/AKL commands could be offered to Australian based crews who will be told they can keep living in Brisbane or Sydney where-ever as their rosters will start from there.

Remoaks assumption that pilots will be rushing back from Europe or the Middle East to help undercut the industry is difficult to agree with even if times get tough.

Chinese 101 might be profitable reading on those long international back of the clock sectors!

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

haughtney1

12th Feb 2009, 08:50

Except Matt..living and working someplace where 3000 BR is considered a nice day...as you wheeze your way into work...and wonder why the TMA controller has turned you into the path of a lufthansa A340.....
Low pay in NZ starts to look ok, particularly if you KNOW that there are plenty of Kiwi's and Ozzies here in europe with lots of equity in homes that they bought for a song back in the late 1990's early 2000's...and could now still sell..and clear 500-600k NZ even in this ****ty climate

No1Dear

12th Feb 2009, 10:40

180 bucks to sit an idiotic computer based psychometric test.
bargain.
Sounds sweet cuz

Gnd Power

12th Feb 2009, 11:41

The salary for an FO is equal to $57,500 AUD, to fly up to 1000 hours a year

No its not.

When you take into consideration the 9% compulsory superannuation (Aus) the equivalent Aussie salary is little under $53, 000 AUD.

The skipper would get the equivalent to $88, 000 AUD.

And NZ has a higher tax rate!!

Sad.

InSoMnIaC

12th Feb 2009, 12:10

"The salary for an FO is equal to $57,500 AUD, to fly up to 1000 hours a year"

is this got any concrete truth to it or is it another pprune fabrication?

I read in this thread that it was 57,500 AUD Base salary.

I take that to mean before sector pay..
can somebody clariify this for me pls.

Dee

12th Feb 2009, 13:01

Dont know what source the slalaries came from all they advertise at the moment is:

Where are Jetstar's pilot bases?

A320
* Auckland

Would Jetstar cover the cost of the Endorsement or Refresher Courses?

Where training is required to gain an endorsement prior to being employed, the cost of gaining the endorsement (Airbus or Boeing) is borne by the applicant. Applicants may be offered the opportunity to enter into an Endorsement Agreement which will allow them to repay the cost incurred through a salary sacrifice arrangement or a deferred payment arrangement over a period of time in accordance with Company policy.

Pilots who are already endorsed on the aircraft type but whose rating is no longer current and those who require a CCQ, would be required to complete a refresher course or a CCQ prior to commencing Line Training. These courses generally will be undertaken in conjunction with Jetstar Transition Training. The cost to each pilot will be determined on an individual basis determined by the additional training required and may be repaid through Salary Sacrifice if necessary. Further information on refresher and CCQ courses can be provided upon request.

Command Potential

Due to our planned expansion, we anticipate a significant number of A320 Command positions becoming available during the initial start up of the Auckland base and over the coming years. These Commands will be offered in accordance with company policy at the time. If no suitably qualified pilots are available within the Jetstar (NZ) pilot group, there may be an opportunity for a command upgrade for suitably qualified and experienced external applicants who are current on Airbus (side-stick) equipment.

What are the Pay scales for Captains and F/O?

The remuneration package for Captains and F/Os will be in line with market rates and will be discussed with short listed applicants during the recruitment process.

Roster Period/ Days Off

Roster periods will be published on the basis of either 28 day periods or calendar month. Pilots will be entitled to a minimum of 8 rostered days off at home base in each 28 day period.

Tax

Pilots are subject to New Zealand Taxation Laws. For information on taxation rates please refer to the New Zealand tax office

Superannuation

Jetstar contributes to KiwiSaver in line with legislation.

Staff Travel Benefits

Jetstar provides employees a discretionary benefit of staff travel benefits after a six month qualifying period with the company. Employees, their children and their parents are able to access concessional staff travel in addition, either a travel partner OR the employee's siblings. Travel is all standby and bookings can be made on Jetstar, Qantas Group and One World partner airlines pursuant to interline travel agreements.

an3_bolt

12th Feb 2009, 20:15

When we used to own an espresso bar - we paid all of our staff more than an FO position.

We paid our baristas in the order of AUS$65,000 - $70,000.
We paid our general staff in the order of AUS$60,000 - $65,000.

Since they worked hard and conscientiously, we were very flexible with shifts, holidays, and they even had some perks like mobile phones due to occasionally working as manager.

So - $60,000 - $65,000 for taking orders and cleaning up coffee cups, smile and wave, sweeping up the floor - not bad. But that is what it takes to get loyal staff to do the job properly.

We had a philosophy of paying well and attracting the best staff we could get, in order to provide a superior product. We achieved that aim. We achieved a loyal customer base and a very very successful business as a result. You would think that selling $3 coffee is an easy business - it is not.....just like running an airline is very difficult - containing costs etc etc. But our success was because of our staff.

So - you can work 5 days a week in an espresso bar - or spend in order of several years and several $100,000 to get your wings for a LOWER paying job.

:ugh::ugh:

remoak

13th Feb 2009, 01:24

And what will your baristas be earning in ten years time (assuming you vould get one to stay that long? Still the same 65-70k, adjusted for inflation. As you rightly pointed out, costs have to be contained. So not a lot of career progression there... but the pilot who starts out on 60k may well have doubled his salary in those ten years.

The whole raison d'etre for any low cost carrier is to contain costs. Keeping salaries under control is simply part of that, and if they didn't, there wouldn't BE a Jetstar, Virgin Blue, etc etc. The world changed the day Southwest started operations.

So would you rather have lots and lots of jobs flying nice shiny jets for less money than the legacy carriers pay, or would you rather still be out in the bush somewhere, poling an ancient lighty about and wondering when the shonky maintenance was going to ruin your day? At least you would still have your pride... I suppose...

Nobody is going to pay more than they have to any more. I agree that having to cough for selection tests and type ratings is irksome, but most will happily swallow it if it gets them a job - as history amply demonstrates.

So I suppose the question is, would you rather be on your feet 8 hours a day making coffee, or would you rather be seated comfortably at FL360 drinking coffee - even if it does pay slightly less?

And as for this:

the company who were bidding gave up....went back to the "old way of doing things because it was too hard to argue with whats established"

That company doesn't deserve to be in business at all. "Gutless" is an apt description.

Spikey21

13th Feb 2009, 02:04

According to remoak...

So not a lot of career progression there... but the pilot who starts out on 60k may well have doubled his salary in those ten years.

Hands up all those who have doubled their pay in the last 20 years, ie. 1989 to 2009.

Yep, thought so, just remoak and a couple of cessna drivers.

Now, hands up all those who get paid less, mmmmm, interesting.

:=

Mat Finish

13th Feb 2009, 02:19

So if we take roughly $12300 (rating cost) or so off the gross of $57500 we get a basic taxable income of $45200 AUD for the first 3 years.

Calling Remoak, how long do you reckon it will take for our salaries to double?

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

an3_bolt

13th Feb 2009, 03:01

And what will your baristas be earning in ten years time

They will probably be earning exactly the same as you.

I think you may have missed the point - or I did not make myself as clear as I could have.

It is this simple - non skilled labour is earning more than skilled AND invested labour. You have spent many years gaining a licence and maintaining it and upgrading it at considerable cost. You have taken the risk and invested in yourself as a business. Your licence is a business. Just like a plumber or electrician or a doctor. Lose your licence and you are out of business!!!

Let us take the example of a doctor. 6 years or so at uni (can do it with Hex these days), and then a few as an intern or similar under someones guidance doing a specialist. Kind of sounds like GA. Then after that you try to set yourself up in a clinic (preferably attached to a hospital) in a partnership. Only those who have a bit of brains and skill get invited into the club at the clinic - hey just like an airline!! And then you get a return on your investment. But it is not just raining gold coins - you have to work and maintain your skills. And it all comes in due course. That is why specialist charge an arm and a leg - to pay costs and return on their investment and lost wages.

Now - back to airlines. If things do not progress and expand - there is a good chance in 5-10 years you just might be earning the same wage "in real terms" that you are earning right now. If it all goes well - you might just double your money - but that is not exactly hard off a very low base wage.

Now - why would anyone pay more when you are attempting to justify there lowest offer? Kind of like saying to the bank "I understand that you have to make money, justify expenses etc and that 11% interest on my mortgage is alright with me - no need to negotiate on that. Not the best deal in town, but your branch is just around the corner and you are convenient although I could get a better deal down the road. "

Rather I would say "You got a hell of a lot of my money with you - you better give me the going worldwide rate - or I will take my money elsewhere. I am perpared to go and get the best rate."

On the back of my beer coaster - I add the figures.......8 years or so at GA wages then real airline position with increasing wage adjusted for inflation etc through to retirement. Then I add up short time in GA and then crap airline wages through to retirement adjusted for inflation etc

Do your own maths and see what you come up with. If you want it all now you get less return in the long term.

I am not trying to take the crap out of anyone or give them a hard line. Just trying to show an alternative point of view about "business".

You are a business. You are only worth what you think you are worth.

jack red

13th Feb 2009, 03:48

...........i'm sorry an3_bolt.......You are a business. You are only worth what you think you are worth....i was sure the saying was
"You are a business. You are only worth what your clients think you are worth".
in this case read client as airline!.............:ugh:

an3_bolt

13th Feb 2009, 04:56

I was saying exactly what is written. People will pay what is "going rate pricing" or what is perceived to be the correct pricing. When people start saying that they are worth $56,000 - that is what they will get paid. No more - no less. If you say you are worth $200,000 they will not get paid that as the going rate is less. The balance is in between.

The client will pay what they think you are worth - yes - and when you say I am worth $56,000 - why pay anymore. I am sure they would be prepared to pay more if they need to.

Go do a business course and study marketing and pricing.

I give up.:ugh:

I have better things to be doing - like watching TV.

hotnhigh

13th Feb 2009, 05:23

:suspect:I really want to hear genex's take on all of this.
One sad slippery slope that has enveloped aviation downunder the last few years. GA from top to bottom now.
Now let's see, well take aircraft from these blokes and give it to these blokes, and how much do I save? Noice.:mad:
Still.........the JPC will look after us.:ugh:

Spikey21

13th Feb 2009, 05:27

"You are a business. You are only worth what your clients think you are worth".

So based on that principle then jack, let me know when you are selling your car/house/wife whatever and I will tell you what it is worth and you will gladly accept that... yeah right.

remoak

13th Feb 2009, 05:27

Hands up all those who have doubled their pay in the last 20 years, ie. 1989 to 2009.

Yep, thought so, just remoak and a couple of cessna drivers.

Well you clearly know nothing about startups... so let me help you.

1. Join new airline as experienced F/O.
2. Airline expands and needs more captains.
3. Senior F/Os all get commands.
4. Captains pay plus 10 years of increments = double what you started on (more or less).

For both Easyjet and Ryanair, experienced F/Os regularly get early commands, during some periods after only 6-9 months. The same will happen her if J* expand - which is why joining early is a smart move.

Spikey21

13th Feb 2009, 05:40

For both Easyjet and Ryanair, experienced F/Os regularly get early commands, during some periods after only 6-9 months.

and if they are really lucky they may now get paid as a Capt with either airline the same or less than what a BA f/o was getting paid ten years ago and he didnt have to pay for an endorsement (+ the Jitstar admin fee :E )

What are we actually doubling here. The lower the entry $ the easier it is to double it but you still end up with fa.

Dee

13th Feb 2009, 05:56

Back to the thread topic:

Anyone know if there is DTA or overtime for hours in excess of say 75 per roster. Any overnights? and what is the source of this salary that was mentioned? any truth in it?

whats the call out rate on a day off etc....

Muff Hunter

13th Feb 2009, 06:42

Dee,

No DTA, NO Overnights, O/T after 75 hours at around $150hr capt and $95hr F/O

Again, No Super, No JQ Perf Bonus and No Retention Bonus...

Figures are correct at this stage (confirmed by a very reliable source) as JQ are still waiting to see how many suckers they can get......

Dee

13th Feb 2009, 06:51

Thanks MH, no super, but I see they are going to contribute to the kiwisaver.... do you get interest on those deposits and can Australians benefit from this system.

And do you get any extra for working on a day off.

At this stage looks very cheap!!

Spikey21

13th Feb 2009, 06:59

but I see they are going to contribute to the kiwisaver

1% woohoo !!

KiwiSaver - Your pay and contributions (http://www.kiwisaver.govt.nz/being/your-pay/#08)

Gnd Power

13th Feb 2009, 07:28

... because we all know that lifestyle is worth megabucks - more than the salary differential between our Euro salaries and what's on offer here.
Straight onto a nice shiny new jet, at or near the top of the seniority list... I'd take it.

I guess that once you have made your euros’ (been a pretty good exchange rate btw) and have probably set yourself up financially, why should you care about anything OR anyone else.

Although perhaps you are just winding up, hope so.

Has been done to death I know, but low cost doesn't necessarily have to mean coffee making salary.

Dee

13th Feb 2009, 08:32

1% woohoo !!

Hey i didnt say it was great, also looks like the contribution is no cost to the company in the first year as the government give the company the money to cover it.....cmon

remoak

13th Feb 2009, 09:23

why should you care about anything OR anyone else.

Some of you guys just crack me up.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that ANYONE sits down after having had a job offer from a jet operator, and thinks "now is there anybody who might be hurt/disadvantaged/mentally scarred if I accept this job? Because if there is, I won't take it"? I mean, what planet are you on?

Everybody here advances their career however they can. Some are more morallly inclined than others, but the idea that anyone should turn down a job with a legitimate airline on the basis that doing so may hurt their colleagues, is complete nonsense. it never happens.

More to the point, T&Cs for pilots, globally speaking, have been on the slide for years. That is partly because they were over-valued in the first place, but also because the industry can no longer support them. It has little to do with pilots screwing each other. Of course, in the sleepy little backwater that is Antipodean aviation, this fact is resisted by those who believe in the anachronistic idea that they are automatically "entitled" to a Qantas/Air NZ salary.

So, no doubt, all of you whinging about the salary/conditions/recruitment process are not going to apply? Crap! You are all whining on PPRuNe to show "solidarity" with your union-minded colleagues, while busily filling out your applications and queuing up to take the psychometric tests.

Welcome to the real world!

DeltaT

13th Feb 2009, 09:46

It saddens me that they are offering terrible pay conditions but if its the only job going, what would you do?
Kiwis do not have an award rate wage such that we can pick and choose some single engine job that can still out pay a regional position.
What would be happening in Australia if you did not have your minimum award?
As has been mentioned earlier, if J* NZ want to set themselves up with poor morale, and as soon as the tide turns all the pilots go elsewhere then J* NZ can dig their own hole.

This is the NZ MP for Transport
New Zealand Parliament - Joyce, Steven (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/0/3/2/49MP169961-Joyce-Steven.htm)
Go to the lower right of the page and click on his name under 'email contacts'.
Instead of us all turning on each other with bitter words, you can redirect your efforts to someone who is in a position to make a change.
Tell him about the situation, and for that matter that includes you Australian pilots.

remoak

13th Feb 2009, 09:51

Steven Joyce is a politician. He cannot, and will not, try and tell an airline how much to pay their staff. As long as Jetstar pay over the minimum wage, they can do what they want and no government will ever try and influence them on that subject.

There is a union in NZ of course (well, sort of), but I'll bet you serious money that they won't do a thing..

DeltaT

13th Feb 2009, 09:54

You are right, he won't. But we can apply pressure for a *NZ* pilot award wage too!!

GADRIVR

13th Feb 2009, 10:28

Remoak....the main reason T&Cs have been sliding for years (well since 1989 if you do your homework) is because of people like you....a minority granted.
As long as there are weak links in the chain, the slide continues.
I'll say it again.
Truckies fair better than us overall as an industry
Train drivers fair better than us as an industry.
Most other jobs that require a bit above average intelligence fair beter than us as an industry.
As long as there people with a "f*** you Jack, I'm ok" mentality...yep you're right...the industry will continue to decline.
Good on ya cobber.....what a top bloke you are:D

remoak

13th Feb 2009, 13:09

As long as there people with a "f*** you Jack, I'm ok" mentality...yep you're right...the industry will continue to decline.

Ah Ok so you are going to turn down a jet job in order to stand on principle, are you? Rather fly your GA POS and spend your life in crappy places blaming everyone but yourself for your lack of progression?

The reality is that every slot that Jetstar has will be easily filled, probably oversubscribed by 500%. These people aren't shafting you or anybody else, and they aren't setting out to harm the industry. They are valuing their services at a certain level, and that's all. Being smart people, they know that their overall prospects are dramatically better than any truckie, train driver, or whatever. They also know that in this climate, having a job at all in aviation is a bonus, and now is definitely not the time to be haggling over pay.

And since you brought up 1989, that is indeed a salutary lesson. The pilots valued their services at a certain level, and pretty much everyone else disagreed... and look what happened. Now ask yourself if that was the smartest move, in terms of preserving pay and conditions? And no, I don't want to get into a fight over '89, few people here can think clearly about it anyway.

The sooner some of you lose the 1950's UK union rhetoric, the better. Those days are long gone.

distracted cockroach

13th Feb 2009, 14:45

For goodness sake, we have a number of recent case studies that tell us what will happen here...look at Pac Blue and Jetconnect. Both started out paying similar salaries to those stated here, both ended up in dire straits with poor pilot retention. Both ended up unionised and together the pilots negotiated improved salaries and conditions (well I believe Pac Blue are in the process)
Jetstar NZ will be similar......mark my words. It just takes a bit of time and a lot of bloody hard work.

distracted cockroach

13th Feb 2009, 14:49

DeltaT, mate, you're dreamin'.
NZ aviation last had a "national award" back in about 1988...it's long gone and won't be coming back. Other than Australia, is there any other country in the world that still has National Awards?

Uncle Chop Chop

13th Feb 2009, 20:32

So how will this work? Jet* pilot group based in CHC getting paid $AUS and another pilot group based in AKL getting paid $NZD. Bummer to be the Auckland lot...

But as some have said here a jobs a job in times like these. Do what you gotta do to make yourself happy, but THINK about it before forking out $$$ for a type rating. If it all went tits up where would that leave you? Pretty farken out of pocket I would suggest.

Bloody glad I made a few thousand coffees whilst studying......:8

rescue 1

13th Feb 2009, 20:38

The story so far from Muff Hunter:
Figures are correct at this stage (confirmed by a very reliable source)

Let's wait to hear the facts rather than throw stones at thin air.:bored:

horserun

13th Feb 2009, 20:55

Ah Ok so you are going to turn down a jet job in order to stand on principle, are you

Well I have remoak.

I earn more than an F/O at jetstar NZ on my dash, and my pay goes up every year. I am not paying $45k to take a pay cut.

They could have just payed slightly less than PacificBlue, and still have a lower cost structure. What a pack of W**kers

Ive take my application off the web site, and they aren't getting a cent of my $181.50.

Im still keen for my first jet job remoak, but Im going to hold off for Air NZ, or Jetconnect. Any kiwi that accepts these conditions deserves F**k all!!!

jack red

13th Feb 2009, 21:08

thank you an3_bolt People will pay what is "going rate pricing" or what is perceived to be the correct pricing. ........so by paying the "going rate price" that is your worth........what is perceived has nothing to do with anything.......so my original statement standsYou are only worth what your clients think you are worth

and Spikey, it wouldn't make one iota of difference what i thought my house/car or wife was worth, i would only be able to get the price you (or the market) are prepared to pay.......i would then have two choices sell at your asking price or withdraw from the market............pretty basic really.

27/09

13th Feb 2009, 23:19

In business some sellers are price makers some are price takers. Conditions do change where sellers go from being a maker to a taker or vice versa.

Lets take a couple of examples.

Fuel companies are price makers. Watch them stick together.

Food growers are generally price takers. They operate as individuals. They get picked off by the purchasing reps of the food chains.

I'll give an example of where food growers went from being price takers to being almost in the price maker category. The kiwi fruit farmers in New Zealand were getting poor returns when there were several selling houses competing with each other to marketing the product overseas, once they formed a single marketing agency their returns went up several fold.

It would appear unity brings wealth.

Are pilots price makers or price takers? Why? What can be done to improve the situation?

I have some opinions on the matter but I'll hold off on those for a bit.

Bo777

14th Feb 2009, 02:15

And then these pilots wonder why they lose total respect among their contemporaries. Its got absolutely nothing to do with "market forces"....its exploitation driven by greed to maximise profits in order to line the pockets of CEOs and the like. Those pilots who agree to these deplorable T & Cs aren’t doing others let alone themselves any favours. Remoak and the rest who go to jet* NZ..... look forward to hearing your incessant whinging about your T&Cs on pprune in the future. An3 seeing you’re an expert on “market forces and prices” what are pilots worth?????? please I’d like to see how you formulate an appropriate $ value, seeing you haven’t even used words like inflation, GDP, social issues, economic growth when describing a ‘pilots worth’.
So what’s the recruitment process...............Can you bend over and touch your toes? :eek:

Gnd Power

14th Feb 2009, 06:57

More to the point, T&Cs for pilots, globally speaking, have been on the slide for years. That is partly because they were over-valued in the first place, but also because the industry can no longer support them

What utter crap.... put the ticket price up a few dollars and drop the CEO and ilk multi million dollar packages.

Why should it be up to the flight crew (and cabin crew) to drop income to unheard of levels just to support the punters low cost airfares, increased shareholders dividends and ridiculously excessive CEO salaries.

remoak if flying a "shiny new jet" for the same pay as a coffee maker floats your boat, go for it mate, and good luck, but you definately won't see me there.

BTW just how low will you some of you guys go in order to fly a shiny new jet. I bet there are some airline companies out there that would like to know.

puma pants

15th Feb 2009, 02:43

Ah Remoak, you're back.
On another thread you were boasting how wealthy you were, and why it was worthwhile being an ex-pat. Now it seems that you were being a bit economical with the truth. You want (or need) a job with Jetstar NZ now eh? How the mighty must have fallen.
By the way guys, the numbers being touted here are incorrect. That I know for certain.

jack red

15th Feb 2009, 04:15

By the way guys, the numbers being touted here are incorrect. That I know for certain.

.....so what are the numbers?.........if you know for certain!

puma pants

15th Feb 2009, 08:02

Because the numbers haven't been finalised. They are on a fishing trip to see what interest is out there.

haughtney1

15th Feb 2009, 08:13

Puma Pants......

I don't think ANYONE with any sort of exposure/understanding of the lowcost model/philosophy would be surprised to learn what you've said.
What does amaze me however is the level of ignorance and misguided morality when it comes to the subject of remuneration.
There are literally scores of expats here in the UK, Europe, and the sandpit with big-bus and minibus time who will view this for precisely what it is...a means to an end.
For some that means bringing the family home, for some it means familiarity, for some it means escaping the UK winter, for some it means a potential position after being laid off, for all the money is part of the equation...but I would politely suggest that it would only comprise around 25% of the decision making process.
Jetstar NZ can fish all they want, (its a well worn process understood by many) but until they put some meat on the bones....few if any experienced people will do anything other than express some interest.

always inverted

15th Feb 2009, 08:19

Some of you think that the managers or off-siders dont read these forums to gauge what people may accept as a salary...
I agree that the pay if this is accurate, it is not that great, but as has been said, a job is better than sitting in the dole line looking for one...
Surely those that really need one will apply for this and those that earn more elsewhere will not ?
I for one am happy where I am for now, as a start up co in this economic climate it could be a big gamble especialy if some of you have kids and a certain lifestyle choices to think of.

Also some are missing the point, sure the market will only pay so much, but if we keep taking a little off here and there, it comes down and down. Surely std prac, this is what I'm offering, what do you think you are worth ? They come up and you come down and you meet somewhere ABOVE what they were originaly offering. This is usually done by the unions during negotiations but it DOES happen.

Some of you just need to have a look out the window at the ecconomy and realise that thisjob for some may be VERY much needed.

remoak

16th Feb 2009, 01:54

puma pants

I think you have me confused for somebody else... but in any case, I just prefer flying here to flying in Europe. Many of my Kiwi ex-colleagues feel the same way, and have applied to Jetstar. We don't NEED to fly for them, we just WANT to fly from a NZ base.

There are only so many days you can spend on the beach before you get bored, you know. Hmmm, what should I do? Go and join Air Nelson (if I can be be bothered paying for the "50 hours recent NZ I/F time" that they say they want - because we all know that I/F time in other countries is worthless)? No thanks. Eagle/Chook/ etc - go fly a small turboprop for not much money and be stuck in the right seat for however long it takes? Mmmm, no thanks. Join the queue for Air NZ, knowing that at my age, even if I were to get in I would probably never see a command before I retired? No thanks. Or go fly for Jetstar, and avoid all the nightmares mentioned above, but for a little less money? Hmmm, why not?

At the end of the day, most pilots who have been at it more than a couple of years value lifestyle over absolute salary.

And as I'm not going to be swayed bt the stupidest argument on the planet - that my taking a job there would somehow disadvantage others - I might just give it a go.

The ones that pretend they don't want this sort of job, or are claiming to stand on principle, just leave more room for the rest of us who understand that the market shapes salaries, not the futile "world owes me a living" dreams of pilots firmly stuck in the '60s.

And as for this:

Ive take my application off the web site, and they aren't getting a cent of my $181.50....has to be the most comprehensive refusal to see the big picture that I have ever seen.

And this:

Its got absolutely nothing to do with "market forces"....its exploitation driven by greed to maximise profits in order to line the pockets of CEOs and the like.Err... now let me see. Why is any company in business? Could it be to make a profit? I wonder... And why do CEOs and "the like" earn such large sums? Could it be because the company succeeds or fails as a direct result of their actions? And that the sort of people able to pull off a low-cost airline successfully are extremely rare? And why would any company employ a CEO on a high salary when they could get an equally qualified one for less? Could it be because the market shapes CEO salaries/bonuses as well?

Sorry, your 1960's socialist dogma doesn't apply here...

What utter crap.... put the ticket price up a few dollars and drop the CEO and ilk multi million dollar packages. Really don't know ANYTHING about how businesses work, do you?

remoak if flying a "shiny new jet" for the same pay as a coffee maker floats your boat, go for it mate, and good luck, but you definately won't see me there.Well I'm pleased to hear that, but your argument is a crock. If a reasonably experienced pilot joins Jetstar, as an F/O, he or she can expect to be looking at a command within a year or two. Now he or she is making twice what the barista does. If said pilot wants to move on and get into training and management, they will end up earning 2.5-3 times what the barista does. Plus whatever other benefits are on offer.

Now, let's say our new F/O does a few years with Jetstar and the moves on to a larger arline, i.e. Emirates or Cathay. Now they have the jet experience they need to be attractive to the larger airline. Now they can expect to end up earning more like five times what the barista did. And probably having more fun.

It's called "big picture", folks...

xjt

16th Feb 2009, 03:36

horserun

16th Feb 2009, 04:11

I got one too. Which is funny because I took my name off the staff CV web site. Its also funny because the original email said you had two weeks to get the testing done, now they pull the plug after a couple of days.

Think maybe puma pants is right.

xjt

16th Feb 2009, 04:48

I think you are right......I got this email 30 minutes after talking to HR about when the T&C's. I was told that it has yet to be finalized, but Sal informed me that he would email me by he end of the week with an update........its interesting....

horserun

16th Feb 2009, 05:25

xjt could you flick me a personal message with what the T&Cs are?

Hanz Blix

16th Feb 2009, 06:45

Anyone receive a similar email as the one quoted below..........let the games begin/....

"We very much appreciate your continued interest in a position with Jetstar Airways Limited in New Zealand. Due to an overwhelming response for the limited number of positions available, we ask if you have not as yet completed the assessment to not complete it at this stage.

Your application will be held open and we will further advise when we are in a position to process your file."

mmmmmmmmm

Haha brilliant, I also got this email. In all my years in avaition I have never ever received a bigger F*&k off don't ask what your going to earn. Very strange:confused:

No thanks. Eagle/Chook/ etc - go fly a small turboprop for not much money and be stuck in the right seat for however long it takes?

Fair call but you will find you will make more money driving a turboprop than with Jet* if the rumored pay is correct.

Good luck to all who go further :ok:

hadenuff

16th Feb 2009, 08:29

Have also withdrawn application, having received the invite to continue with paying the $181.

Agree with you Hanz Blix, am making more money staying in the regional over the next couple of years, with better job security, and wait for a better opportunity.

Sand dune Sam

16th Feb 2009, 08:31

Remoak, waffle on as much as you like. Fact remains that the only reason Australian companies set up shop in New Zealand is because they know Kiwis will work for less. Thats it in a nutshell, you guys will work for less. And if it means taking work off Australian pilots, you guys will not hesitate to do it.

Oxidant

16th Feb 2009, 13:16

Must agree with H1, there is no place for infantile Xenophobic posts on PPRuNe. :=

blackbird71

16th Feb 2009, 13:59

are you guys serious or what, you are actually comparing your qualification to a barista, wake up to yourselves, have some self respect and grow some balls....NFI guys, seriously.... if thats what you think you are worth then do us all a favour and make some cappacinos, extra froth thanks.... f%*&^# knobs:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Snatch

16th Feb 2009, 22:12

I think it is obvious to all of us that Jetstar is manouvering to move its pilot base offshore. With the TTMRA the Australian pilots are a rubber-stamp away from a Kiwi ATPL and with the Open Skies agreement, all Australian domestic flying can be operated from Christchurch.

When the National Farmers Federation and Patricks conspired with the Howard government to "restructure" the workforce, did the MUA sit quietly?

If the NSW Government started recruiting teachers and nurses from New Zealand and employing them on NZ terms and conditions, would the Teacher's Federation or the Nurse's Federation sit quietly?

Coal miners are very cheap in India. I wonder if the CFMEU would mind if XStrata or BHP or Rio Tinto offered fly in-fly out from a Mumbai base? (Must be an Australian Citizen to work in Australia but position is based in Mumbai and on Indian Terms and Conditions! :ugh: )

All the AFAP has done so far is send a memo to JETSTAR pilots telling them that it is all very worrying and that they shouldn't resign from J* Aus to go to J* NZ. Good thinking, Captains Obvious! :D

In these difficult times surely to god the AFAP would be able to point out to the LABOR government that J* is moving to base its workforce OFFSHORE, meaning a loss of Australian jobs and a loss to the Australian economy? Despite the blue-collar salaries offered :* these are white-collar professional jobs that WILL be moved offshore.

The AFAP needs to start applying political pressure and public relations pressure NOW to start turning public opinion in our favour.

Lawrie, Eric - you guys have got to stop living 20 years in the past and start dealing with the media-driven world we live in today. You failed to capitalise on the pilot shortage for PR leverage - the best opportunity we have EVER had to win broad-scale improvement in T&Cs and inform the general public that pilots are earning less than the average salary in this country.

Remoak is spot-on when he says nobody gives a stuff what pilots are paid... that's because our elected representatives have failed to represent us.

With all these Indian pilots training in Australia over the last 5 years and going back to a shrinking Indian economy, holding Australian CPLs... guess what's next? :ooh:

Transition Layer

17th Feb 2009, 00:40

Well said Snatch!

And puma pants, scavengers is probably a bit harsh. I prefer to think of the how the Kiwis are to Australia as what the Mexicans are to the USA. Only difference is the way we open the doors to those coming from across the ditch and the US do everything to keep them out.

float flyer

17th Feb 2009, 02:08

I do love this "I am Australian, hear me roar!" mentality from our friends across the ditch...No wonder the JAFA tag gets added to you outside the South West Pacific!

Yet when you are of shore..."Kiwi's, Aussies, yeah we are all cut from the same cloth"

At the moment, as much as I hate to say it a job is a job, and one flying an aeroplane, when qualified to do so, beats stacking the supermarket shelves any day...That you can quote me on!

To those who are looking at Jetstar, good luck, ignore the bitter and twisted "prats" on here...

When things pick up again, move on to brighter pastures should you so desire!

And to those who are going to have a go at me, feel free, but you gotta start somewhere, and an opportunity is an opportunity, even if it isn't as good financilly as it should be!

It is so easy to be in that "glass house" and through stones, pity when they make like a Bommerang, and come back and hit you!

Oh and by the way, how many Aussies hold pilot jobs in NZed, when there are suitably qualified drivers here? And how many recipricating jobs in Australia?

Sorry, and we KIWI's are the "SCABS"?

GET OVER YOURSELVES!

waren9

17th Feb 2009, 02:20

My thoughts exactly. Well put floaty.:ok:

Oxidant

17th Feb 2009, 02:24

Almost every company on the planet is only there to make a profit. Either for the owners or their share holders. To that end they will do whatever they can (especially in a competitive sector or as now in a recession) to minimise costs. Therefore if the Government in power will allow them to set up offshore or import labour, they will do it.
So rather than engaging in puerile attacks on the” individual worker”, perhaps you should look closer to home at those you voted into power to run the economy?

pigdriver

17th Feb 2009, 04:13

Have heard the actual money is around 160ish kiwi!!! About 120 or so base, and then flight pay . With the 75 hrs or so you will be rostered, should be around 160 p/a. 5 weeks leave, and that 1 or 2 % kiwi super I believe.

Q300

17th Feb 2009, 06:07

Way, way, way higher than the average wage ($38,400 or so NZD).
It's higher than a GP and most hospital types.
Higher than teachers and other salaried, qualified professionals.
Yet still lower than a MP (or similar to it).

Pamelah Andersen

17th Feb 2009, 06:31

What a shame the Profession has come to this.

Jetstar NZ is a budget outfit, offering budget t&c's, budget customer service, and a budget management mindset. Take it if you are desperate for a drive, or leave it.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

Sand dune Sam

17th Feb 2009, 07:10

20,000 Kiwis move to Australia every year. And you Kiwis have the audacity to say Australians took Kiwi jobs at Jetconnect. Gee whiz you guys are a tad delusional. Still, I guess when you grow up in NZ and see a big beautifull country that has everything going for it 3 hrs west of NZ, it all makes sense.

Get over yourselves, get the chip off your shoulder and grow up. No wonder Kiwi women hate kiwi men, the agro in palpable!!

27/09

17th Feb 2009, 07:23

20,000 Kiwis move to Australia every year.

Someone has to do the work over there. :)

Seriously tho Sam I think you need to look pretty close to home when you say get the chip off your shoulder and grow up

Jetstar has been slowly chipping away at the Qantas terms and conditions in OZ for a year or two now. It is pretty obvious what their game plan is in OZ - lower the pay and conditions of the Qantas group.

They have been doing that quite successfully with Australian pilots, now they plan to take it a step further with their New Zealand operation. Wages here not just in aviation are quite a bit behind what they are in OZ and have been for many years.

By the way all Kiwis know Australia is big but I don't think they all see it as beautiful.

remoak

17th Feb 2009, 11:53

a big beautifull country that has everything going for it 3 hrs west of NZNo, we see what is basically an intolerably hot desert, full of things that want to bite and kill you. And then there are the crocs, box jellyfish, snakes, scorpions... no wonder the poms used it as a convict repository. Only country in the world you need a criminal record to get into... :E

Jetstar NZ is a budget outfit, offering budget t&c's, budget customer service, and a budget management mindset. Take it if you are desperate for a drive, or leave it.I doubt that the crews of Ryanair, Easyjet, or Southwest would agree with you. All budget airlines - in fact, the pioneers of budget airline operation... and all with superb training departments and very high standards. Compare that to Qantas and their fake engineers and constant incidents... and then look at the accident records of the "budget" carriers. When you have finished doing that, have a look at their company returns and see who is making the most money... and thus ensuring the futures of their staff.

Just because an airline is "low cost", doesn't mean that all the stuff that impinges on the flight crew is below standard. We all know what to expect when we sign up, if you want legacy carrier mollycoddling, don't join.

haughtney1

17th Feb 2009, 18:17

Nice one Mr Tossa,
But that is the word around any rural town in OZ ever since the shearer's dispute of the 1980's when the Kiwi's brought over the wide combs and under cut Aussie shearers by working below award
Compare shearing and rural Oz to the airline industry...if ever there was a valid comparison to make..you've made it..NOT! :D

What you name calling, intellectually disadvantaged, oxygen stealing numpties fail to understand (because you are either too ignorant or unwilling to accept) is that Jetstar will do what they like, how they like, when they like...within the letter of the law.
If those of you are foolish enough to believe that labelling a few New Zealanders in a derogatory fashion will further your cause then good luck to you...you'll certainly need it!
The rest of us are intelligent enough to spot a small minded bigot when we see one.

Transition Layer..
I prefer to think of the how the Kiwis are to Australia as what the Mexicans are to the USA. Only difference is the way we open the doors to those coming from across the ditch and the US do everything to keep them out.
I take it mate you've been to Border in the last 6 months? and spoken to the locals on both sides? (I have BTW..and its the opposite to what you THINK you know)

P.S. I've just joined in the name calling..to keep in the spirit of the Tossa who started it :hmm:

an3_bolt

17th Feb 2009, 19:33

I doubt that the crews of Ryanair, Easyjet, or Southwest would agree with you. All budget airlines - in fact, the pioneers of budget airline operation... and all with superb training departments and very high standards. Compare that to Qantas and their fake engineers and constant incidents... and then look at the accident records of the "budget" carriers. When you have finished doing that, have a look at their company returns and see who is making the most money... and thus ensuring the futures of their staff.

OK - you have obviously added up all the crashes and incidents around the world - so where are your statistics?

You are making very bold claims and wild statements without proof. Show us your proof. You will make a convincing argument if you can prove what you are saying instead of just claiming things and telling us it is fact. For example - superb training departments and very high standards.....have you worked in their safety department or training department? Do you have inside information that you would like to share? Have you been involved in their training or being a recipient of their training system?

Or is what you are writing your perception?

If you want to argue convincingly - provide fact to back up what you are trying to communicate.

Muff Hunter

17th Feb 2009, 19:39

A Kiwi walks into his bedroom carrying a sheep in his arms and says:
"Darling, this is the pig I have sex with when you have a headache."
His girlfriend is lying in bed and replies:
"I think you'll find that's not a pig but a sheep, you idiot."

The man says: " Shut up, I wasn't talking to you."

haughtney1

17th Feb 2009, 20:00

Here you go Muff.....

What's the difference between Australia and a pot of yoghurt?

If you leave the lid off a pot of yoghurt, it will eventually develop a culture

Or perhaps...

Why do so many Australian men divorce their wives?

They like to know there's a ball and chain they can get rid of

Transition Layer

17th Feb 2009, 20:16

remoak

Just because an airline is "low cost", doesn't mean that all the stuff that impinges on the flight crew is below standard. We all know what to expect when we sign up, if you want legacy carrier mollycoddling, don't join.

And the same way "low cost" should not imply low standards, low cost should not equal low pay! Southwest being the perfect example!!!

xjt

17th Feb 2009, 20:46

Muff Hunter-----LMFAO....................................................... .......oh man you guys are hilarious :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

empacher48

17th Feb 2009, 23:36

Wow, I am so pleased there are a lot of intelligent posts in this thread...

I would've thought that the Aussies who think they are being undercut by the New Zealand operation would be trying to help the New Zealand operation get its T&C's equalled out with themselves. Otherwise enough Jetconnect pilots who may loose their jobs now, NZ based regional pilots with shiny jet syndrome and kiwis based overseas who have lost their jobs in Europe or around the world) who would take anything to feed their families will mean that the Aussie operation will quietly move off shore and the managers of Jetstar will get their bonuses this year. :rolleyes:

But the name calling is really going to help the Australian based pilots make sure that they keep their jobs and the same (or better) T&C's. You're not going to stop certain people taking jobs with worse T&C's, especially those who see the job as an easy way to get into the pointy end of a jet, but name calling those people and abusing them is one sure fired way to get them standing with you to change the T&C's in the future. :rolleyes:

If you want to improve the situation stand together, don't point the finger at them, otherwise they'll just give you the one finger salute and tell you to jog on, wait until they're all on board and then collectively work to improving them.

But hey what do you all care? Its quite entertaining watching adults, professional pilots with many many years experience in aviation, go at each other worse than a 5 year old in a school playground. :rolleyes:

Sand dune Sam

18th Feb 2009, 01:38

This thread will die a natural death, however, it is entertaining watching the Kiwis get agro and defensive at the same time.

xjt

18th Feb 2009, 01:52

PLEASE STOP.......your killing me.................i have not laughed so hard since Hillary Clinton ran for president

remoak

18th Feb 2009, 01:57

so where are your statistics?

Airline accident ratings (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm)

One of many... but if you don't know how to use Google, I can't help you.

Do you have inside information that you would like to share? Have you been involved in their training or being a recipient of their training system?

I do have lots of inside info, but I'm not posting it here! :ugh::ugh:

I have been involved with the Easyjet training department, and have two close friends who are senior training captains at Ryanair. I also had links to the training department at Go when it still existed, and worked for Buzz briefly when they were still in business. I also have some friends in Southwest. The selection and training in all of them is, or was, solid.

However all that is pretty much irrelevant. All these airlines started from scratch and grew very, very quickly. With all the training and flying risk that entails, it is actually pretty amazing that they got through their initial growth phase with no incidents. It is pretty much solely down to insistence on high standards at all times.

low cost should not equal low pay! Southwest being the perfect example!!

Sure, but the difference is that Southwest is a mature airline, and has had plenty of time to get to the position that it is. Now they are over the lean early years, they are probably the best airline to work for in the US. I think all low-cost airlines should be like that, and certainly Easyjet and Ryanair pay very competitive salaries. However, new low-cost airlines, and Jetstar is definitely one of those, they need a chance to get established, and their survival in the first five years or so is absolutely dependent on keeping costs rigidly under control.

I'm not an advocate of low pay, I'm like everyone else and would like as much as I can get. But I am also a realist who sees that the initial salary offer is just a beginning point. Market forces will almost certainly make pilot retention an issue when the economy picks up. T&Cs will then improve. it's an old, old pattern.

The smart pilot looks beyond the figures on the contract and thinks a few years ahead. There is no doubt that Jetstar is a great opportunity for many. Sitting on the sideline pretending to be standing on principle hurts only one party... and it isn't Jetstar or those that work there. It's pretty easy to see who will advance farther and faster, and it isn't the self-righteous turboprop and GA drivers...

an3_bolt

18th Feb 2009, 04:00

The link you show indicates that there are many lower cost airlines in the bottom ranking scores.

In addition - can you explain why the rumour info that I have is that Jestar in Australia has not undergone an IOSA audit?

One of many... but if you don't know how to use Google, I can't help you.

Dude - there is no need to get like that. We are not children. I am trying to have a reasoned discussion.

remoak

18th Feb 2009, 05:19

The link you show indicates that there are many lower cost airlines in the bottom ranking scores.

Not amongst the European airlines, which is what I am talking about. Easyjet ranks 8th and Ryanair 7th. The bottom five are all legacy carriers. Which ones were you thinking of?

In addition - can you explain why the rumour info that I have is that Jestar in Australia has not undergone an IOSA audit?

You ask me to provide hard facts, and then you come at me with an unsubstantiated rumour? Hmmmm.... the answer is that I have no idea.

I am trying to have a reasoned discussion.

Well OK, but this info is freely available and I'm not sure why you want me to paint you a picture. Do a little research and you will find the same facts that I have.

Muff Hunter

18th Feb 2009, 05:50

Did you know that in NZ, they bury people twelve foot under. That's because deep down they're very nice people.

However, in Oz, they only bury Kiwi's one foot under. That's because even when they're dead, they still expect their hand out.

framer

18th Feb 2009, 06:11

Heh heh this is great!
"Why did the Australian Nativity scene not go ahead?"
Because they couldn't find three wise men and a virgin.:eek:

Q300

18th Feb 2009, 06:12

There's some nasty pieces of work on this thread... hopefully with tongue firmly in cheek.

Honestly, even us Kiwis need jobs. If the airlines won't offer kiwi pilots anything decent, then they have to accept what they're given. Everyone needs money to live.

Pipe dream if you think the airlines will stop shafting everyone on Ts and Cs and bring parity to Oz and NZ pilots. It takes two to tango, so it's not enirely or just the fault of the kiwi pilots is it?

AnQrKa

18th Feb 2009, 06:35

"What kind of head would even consider this??"

Any one of the truckload of pilots about to become unemployed as the downturn causes havoc on the airline industry.

Who knows , muff hunter, you mite be one of them.

Would you still be a #$%^head then?

AnQrKa

18th Feb 2009, 06:41

"Southwest being the perfect example!!"

WN is not low cost when compared to the true low cost carriers in north america - JBlue/Airtran/Westjet/Frontier etc.

mattathm

18th Feb 2009, 08:04

You know Australia wouldnt be such a bad place if it wasnt filled with F***ing Australians.:ok:

Bahaahhaahahhahaaaa
have you complaining dickheads read your posts?
Look at the lot of you, all complaining about nothing.

Who gives a toss what Jetstar are going to pay, if you want a jet job, go apply, if you dont want one then shut the F*** up!

Unless every single pilot in the world boycotts pilots salaries nothing will ever happen
and if the minimum wage is paid pilots will go fly, simple.
In fact pilots have been known to fly for food. Hence the T shirt
:D

always inverted

18th Feb 2009, 08:29

Quote:
Who gives a toss what Jetstar are going to pay, if you want a jet job, go apply, if you dont want one then shut the F*** up!

Could not have said it any better...:D:D:D

blow.n.gasket

18th Feb 2009, 08:33

Q:Why wasn't a kiwi the first man on the moon?
A: Ran out of scaffolding hey bro!:}

Q: What do you call a jewish Maori?
A: Hey Bro (hebrew)!:bored:

Muff Hunter

18th Feb 2009, 08:34

A major earthquake, measuring 9.1 on the Richter scale has hit New Zealand this morning. The country is devastated with 350,000 New Zealanders missing, and over 100,000 injured.
The country is totally ruined and the government is so overwhelmed that it has issued a worldwide appeal for assistance. Other nations have been quick to respond to the disaster.
Britain is flying in rescue workers and sniffer dogs to help locate trapped victims.
The USA is flying in food supplies and aid money.
France is flying in doctors, nurses and first aid units.
Japan is flying in high tech communications equipment.
Germany is flying in special trained police squads to help restore order.
Russia is flying in tents and warm clothing.
Australia is flying in 350,000 replacement Kiwis.......

remoak

18th Feb 2009, 08:43

Rob Muldoon had it right - when New Zealanders emigrate to Aussie, it raises the IQ of both countries. If you want proof, read this thread! :ok:

haughtney1

18th Feb 2009, 12:20

Word is there has been a mass exodus of Kiwis from Victoria in the past week on account there is not enough doorways left for them to stand in

Nice one Tossa, laugh at your fellow countrymans expense.....

How do you know if you're an Aussie?

You let your 15 year old daughter smoke at the dinner table in front of her kids

A Chinese man decides to move to Australia after 50 years of living in Shanghai.
He buys a small piece of land near to Mt Isa.
A few days after moving in the friendly Aussie neighbour decides to go across and welcome the new guy to the region, so he goes next door, but on his way up the drive-way, he sees the Chinese man running around his front yard chasing about 10 hens.
Not wanting to interrupt these "Chinese customs", he decides to put the welcome on hold for the day.
The next day, he decides to try again, but just as he is about to knock on the front door, he looks through the window and sees the Chinese man urinate into a glass and then drink it.
Not wanting to interrupt another "Chinese custom" he decides to put the welcome on hold for yet another day.
A day later he decides to give it one last go, but on his way next door, he sees the Chinese man leading a cow down the drive-way, pause, and then put his mouth next to the cow's bum.
The Aussie bloke can't handle this, so he goes up to the Chinese man and says "Jeez Mate, what the hell is it with your Chinese customs? I come over to welcome you to the neighbour hood, and see you running around the yard after hens. The next day you are pissing in a glass, and drinking it and then today you have your head so close to that cow's bum, it could just about sh1t on you."
The Chinese man is very taken back and says "Sorry sir, you do not understand; these aren't Chinese customs I am performing, but Australian customs."
"What do you mean mate" says the Aussie, "Those aren't Australian customs."
"Yes they are", replied the Chinese man, "for you see, in order for me to become a true Australian, I must chase chicks, drink p1ss, and talk to bull-sh1t"